Sauerkraut in mason jars?

[MysticTree]

But you know that commercial pickles are made with unhealthy distilled vinegars, right..?But those are the same jars I use (I discard the contents and make my own)They're nice fat stubby jars.

I'm talking about buying the jars - the ones the gerkins come in are perfect.

[Arky]

I'm talking about buying the jars - the ones the gerkins come in are perfect.

OK, gotcha


The reason your meaning was a little ambiguous is because those jars are unsuitable for fermenting sauerkraut unless you adapt them with a brewers airlock, and you made no mention of that.

[MysticTree]

OK, gotchaThe reason your meaning was a little ambiguous is because those jars are unsuitable for fermenting sauerkraut unless you adapt them with a brewers airlock, and you made no mention of that.

that's because I don't buy them for kraut. I buy them for sprouting. I mentioned on this thread that I'd like to try making kraut.

[DebB]

Actually...

rather than waiting for us to unmoderate your post... send us a link to the post in an email (by hitting the little triangle of your post or the post above it) and let us know you need it approved. MUCH faster as we see these emails immediately upon opening up our mail programs.

Thanks for your patience everyone...

Great idea - I'll remember that if it happens again ~

[Arky]

I'm talking about buying the jars - the ones the gerkins come in are perfect.

...those are the same jars I use (I discard the contents and make my own)

They're nice fat stubby jars.

...I'm trying to post a picture but, as ever on RFT, I'm being hindered from doing so.

SIGH...does anyone know how to get the forum software to actually accept a picture instead of repeatedly failing without even saying why ?



EDIT:

Am using Photobucket, as a workaround.

(these are the gherkin jars, available very cheaply indeed, from Lidl, in Europe. They work out at approximately $2.00 each, and are a really excellent size)



NB: Righthand lid is for use after fermentation has thoroughly completed, since increasing pressure will cease to be a significant issue at that time.

[MysticTree]

I don't have a problem with pictures on here when posting from a computer. Posting from a mobile as I am now is pretty dreadful on every forum.

[Arky]

No matter what I do, I just keep getting 'http 500 internal server I/O' errors.

It's getting really tedious that every time I try to post anything on RFT, the forum software keeps throwing up obstacles...

[Arky]

Found the answer:

https://www.vbulletin.com/forum/show...-upload-images

[queenbee]

Thank you so much for all the information!! I am excited about this. =) I am going to read the threads (as recommended) - and thank you for all of the different links, etc. We will be eating up a sauerkraut storm here in a few weeks. =)

Cheers!

[walnutty]

OK, gotcha


The reason your meaning was a little ambiguous is because those jars are unsuitable for fermenting sauerkraut unless you adapt them with a brewers airlock, and you made no mention of that.

WRONG! Don't mean to offend, but you don't need a special airlock.

I watched this video on Raw Food Recipes dot com and make it the way she does - SUPER SIMPLE!!!:


http://www.rawfoodrecipes.com/video/...an-recipe.html

[DebB]

WRONG! Don't mean to offend, but you don't need a special airlock.

I watched this video on Raw Food Recipes dot com and make it the way she does - SUPER SIMPLE!!!:


http://www.rawfoodrecipes.com/video/...an-recipe.html

I've also fermented in just glass jars and plastic lids - no airlock, and had great success.

In the beginning though, it was all so new (and mysterious - wink), I didn't want to take the chance, which is why I ordered the perfect pickler. I was pretty leary and wanted to do it correctly. A lot of work goes into making a gallon jar full of veggies / kraut and I didn't want it to spoil...

[Arky]

WRONG! Don't mean to offend, but you don't need a special airlock.

I watched this video on Raw Food Recipes dot com and make it the way she does - SUPER SIMPLE!!!:


http://www.rawfoodrecipes.com/video/...an-recipe.html

No offence taken, at all :-)



To elaborate on my reason for saying what I did, my remark was specifically in relation to the jar type that Mystic & I were discussing. This is a glass jar with single-piece metal lid. The reason for this is that, yes, it is possible to ferment in such a jar without an airlock, but it's a safety & a quality issue.

As you know, the fermentation process creates pressure in the jar. Therefore, one should ideally allow some way for the pressure to be released, in order to avoid unnecessary stress on the glass jar. If your jar jas particularly thick glass, then fine, but in many instances, glass jars are not as strong as they appear. This is one reason why commercial sauerkrauts are pasteurised - so retailers don't get jars exploding on the shelf.


Also, in order to minimise the possibility of pathogenic bacteria, yeasts & moulds, competing with health-promotive lactic acid bacteria, during the fermentation process, one needs to ensure, as much as practicably possible, that air cannot come into the jar. Therefore, there is a paradoxical situation whereby pressurised air ideally needs to be able to escape the jar, whilst simultaneously preventing the possibilty of any air (& thus airborne contaminants) getting in. This is why I mentioned, in an earlier post, that lids secured with a wire frame are able to accomplish this feat. Such closing mechanisms have a natural degree of give/flex to them, which yields to air escaping at high pressure, but does not allow ambient air pressure to get in.


In the case of the type of jar&lid that mystic & I were discussing, the lid is not designed to operate in such a manner - it is designed to be either completely airtight, both inwards & outwards, or, if one leaves the lid a tiny bit loose, it will allows airflow both inwards & outwards, which risks potential contamination. Under such circumstances, one might get lucky & achieve good results, but the chances of success are significantly reduced. This is the reason why the traditional crude method of using a bucket can succeed, but often results in yeasts & moulds proliferating on the surface of the ferment. This is precisely the reason why the 'moat' method of using a water seal for the lid was developed, many years ago, evident in the Harsch crock. They didn't design that water seal without having good reason to make the effort to do so.


In terms of the video link you provided, walnutty, ( http://tinyurl.com/baktlb5 ), the jars she is using are of the 2-piece type, where there is a lid which does not secure itself but requires a seperate metal ring. This lid type can form a very strong seal. So it can work without an airlock but it's not particularly wise, from the point of view that pressure can build up within the jar, risking potential explosion. If one is happy with the strength of the jar being sufficient to overcome this, then fair enough, go ahead & it will yield good results.


There are ways of compromising to allow some yielding to fermentation pressure, even with lids that ordinarily don't permit any movement of air, in or out. One way is to use a plastic bag, which gets squeezed in between the lid & the rim of the jar. Another way is to use a rubber gasket, since this will yield to high pressure but not yield so much to ordinary ambient air pressure.


If you read the link I provided in an earlier post, you'll see that Lea Harris made a great effort to experiment with many different jar/lid configurations, & found very significant differences in the quality of the sauerkraut that was produced in each instance:


www.nourishingtreasures.com/index.php/2012/07/03/sauerkraut-survivor-final-report/


It's also worth mentioning that in that rawfoodrecipes link ( http://tinyurl.com/baktlb5 ), it is suggested that one may innoculate a new batch of sauerkraut using some leftover brine from a previous batch. Whilst this is, indeed, possible, & many people use this method, it is not, in fact, a good idea. This is because when sauerkraut ferments, it does so in several distinct stages, each stage relating to a progression in the acidity of the ferment, & an associated progression in which bacterial strains are most proliferating. Therefore, using leftover brine (or inappropriate probiotic capsules) in order to innoculate a new batch can interfere with the natural order of progression of the fermentation process, which relies upon specific strains of bacteria being predominant at differing stages of the fermentation process. It's well-intended but it's unfortunately analagous to 'putting the cart before the horse'.


This issue is described in the wikipedia sauerkraut entry, for example:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauerkraut


This is also why I came to realise that my previous use of probiotic capsules to innoculate my batches of sauerkraut was an unwise thing to do, so now I only ever make it with either zero innoculant or (almost always) with a proper kraut innoculant, such as Caldwell's or Body Ecology (I prefer Caldwell's, but that's purely personal preference). The point is that Caldwell's & Body Ecology are intended specifically for fermenting vegetables, not for directly innoculating the gut.

Another mistake many people make (& one which I myself have occasionally been guilty of) is to allow insufficient time for fermentation to fully mature. This is because of the aforementioned series of stages. Some people ferment for just a few days, & assume that because the bubbling & pressure formation subside after 3 or 4 days, that this indicates completion of fermentation, but apparently, it does not. You can find this issue discussed in food chemistry texts (e.g. http://tinyurl.com/bb6sggj ), but it's also summarised in some articles on the web:

www.foodrenegade.com/3-biggest-fermenting-mistakes-youre-already-making/

www.nourishingtreasures.com/index.php/2012/05/15/the-science-behind-sauerkraut-fermentation/

http://tinyurl.com/akhf9zz

Conclusion?

'Super simple' methods can work.
'Quick-&-dirty' methods can work.

But so can more considered approaches, such as:

Using a brewers airlock for certain jar/lid types
Using a wire lid locking mechanism
Using rubber gaskets to modify how a lid may yield to fermentation pressure.
Using a 'water moat' seal, as in the famous traditional Harsch crocks

& there may be sound technical reasons for making the effort to use a more considered approach.

Everyone has variations in the way they do their fermenting. My discussion of using an airlock with the single-piece metal lid type evident in the Lidl gherkin jars should, admittedly, therefore, have been a little less emphatic, but my emphasis on use of an airlock with this lid type was based upon an understanding of the shortcomings of not using an airlock with this lid type. This type of lid does have a little 'flex' built into it, but it's extremely minimal & therefore it does not, in its standard manufactured form, provide sufficient means of overcoming fermentation pressure concerns. One can manage without an airlock, but the odds of avoiding either explosion (if the lid is 100% sealed) or contamination (if the lid is allowed to be not 100% sealed) are much reduced without use of an airlock. A workaround for this type of lid (if one was determined to avoid use of an airlock) could be the introduction of a rubber seal.

FWIW, I do intend to try some ferments using the rubber gasket+wire-closed glass fido/le parfait/kilner type jars, when I eventually return to sauerkraut, as I am inspired by Lea's success with this method.

For anyone who is absolutely determined to use a totally-sealed, unyielding, jar/lid type, it's worth considering that the likelihood of explosion will increase as the jar size increases. This is due to the relative amount of carbon dioxide being produced by a small vs large batch, & also because a larger jar has more surface area over which the pressure will be able to exert itself, which is consequently a greater strain upon the glass. However, most people prefer not to ferment in small batches, so this trade-off can be quite a dilemma...


Anyway, sincerely no 'egg-sucking' intended, with all this. I merely wished to explain the reasons why I said what I did! ;-)


Whatever jar/lid type you use, & whatever method you use, I wish you the best of success!









I also wish to give props to Lea Harris for doing such a great job of researching the various jar/lid options, & for digging deeper, just as I did, on the topic of stages of fermentation. This topic of stages of maturation of fermented vegetables tends to be seriously overlooked, but it's important to understand it, if one is to achieve the most health-promotive results.

.

[DebB]

You're blowin' my mind Arky! ;)

[Arky]

This fermentation malarky is a really curious, multi-faceted thing, isn't it?

I wouldn't say it 'fascinates' me - my interest is purely from the standpoint of wishing to achieve the most health-promotive results, but I can nonetheless appreciate why some people (eg Sandor Ellix Katz) do become very engrossed in the topic.

I'd like to see people here on RFT post pics of their sauerkraut making experiences :-)

[queenbee]

You're blowin' my mind Arky! ;)

My thoughts exactly!! Thank you so much for all of the information. I feel a little overwhelmed, I have to say. I
We have 5 jars of sauerkraut fermenting right now - 3 in regular pint mason jars, 2 in 32-oz wire/rubber gasket jars. Hopefully they'll turn out okay. My DH just opened them to let the gas out and there was definitely gas leaving the jars.

My DH says he won't use regular mason jars again as it was more of pain to vent them as opposed to other type.

I haven't attached pics before, but I'm making my first attempt here...