Where is the proof?

[druid]

... o.k.... *shrugs*

You dont want an outside opinion or study? I dont want to wear blinders and find out Im wrong. Look how 'extremist' diets have worked in the past. Atkins, all meat, animals, fat fat lowest carbs. Raw, all raw, 100% organic, etc

[Revvell]

You dont want an outside opinion or study? I dont want to wear blinders and find out Im wrong. Look how 'extremist' diets have worked in the past. Atkins, all meat, animals, fat fat lowest carbs. Raw, all raw, 100% organic, etc

No, actually I don't and I don't see how you can call fruits, vegetable, seeds and nuts "extremist" AND I've asked you about studies on veganism and you just ignored me. How do you know you don't need meat/dairy? What proof do you have? You're just doing it to save the animals? sheesh! How scientific is that? other animals eat other animals. Part of the life cycle.

[misslinda]

Hmmmm. Interesting, Welcome Druid.

What makes you so [sure] scientific studies are done with accuracy and good intension for the sake of you????

Instead of viewing this as a "diet" CAN YOU ASK YOURSELF IF FRESH FRUITS AND VEGETABLE IS GOOD FOR YOU?

Why are you afraid of being in total authority of your own health and decision?

Why is a scientist anylsis and finding more credble than your own?

Regardless if you are 100%, 80 or 60%, again, fresh live and living foods cannot kill you--agree?

VEgan? what had you been loyal to.......tofu? soy protein isolate?

You really sound like you are highly emotinoally charged and high strung --kinda panicky about this---makes me nervous inside.........nothing against you REALLY but perhaps you can get more insight by sharing with us you experience as a VEGAN and what you had been eating, lifestyle prior and so forth..........

There's not guarantee that even if we supply and furnish you with pages and pages of so called "scientific" proof, that doesn't mean you will CHOOSE this way of eating. Right?

What are you afraid of if you attempt this without "scientific" proof?


;)

[swingbolder]

I want to find people that AREN'T raw and have them study it. No strings attached.

But there would be strings attached. . . they are attached to their cooked food. :)

[jorjeni]

meant to mention this. I am 100% vegan, been this way for almost 4 years. The reason I changed over was heart attacks, etc, happening to people I know and love then I got into animal rights.

Im not saying that Raw is wrong or that the proof isnt in the pudding. I want to be able to back up WHY Im doing this with proof, research, documentation, etc when asked or challenged. I dont think that its too much to ask for.

I don't think anything is all happy. Raw must have a 'darker' side or it would be a no brainer. Everyone everywhere would be doing this.

Smoking will kill you everyone knows this it causes all kinds of dieases but people still smoke. We have no smoking inside rules now in many states but still people huddle up outside in 0 degrees puffing away. Even though they know they are slowly killing themselves they still do it. Just because someone knows something is good for them doesn't mean they will do it.

Everyone knows they should be eating fruits and veggies raw to get the best benifits from them but how many people do so. There is a woman at work that suffers from some of the same things I did. We took the same medications for them. Well I have been off mine since the 3rd week of January when she asked me if I had any cause she forgot hers and I told her I didn't take them anymore and when she asked me why and I told her cause I gave up processed foods and was transitioning to Raw well she would rather take a pill.

Your proof will be YOU. When people see you they will come to you and ask you what you are doing. When I was still eating 1 cooked meal a day people started coming up to me asking me what I was doing for my skin. TOTAL strangers who have never seen me before were coming up to me and telling me I had great skin what was I doing. Last night at work few more people were telling me how much I am changing and asking me how much weight I have lost. I am living proof and you will be too. That is better than any piece of paper or numbers in a book.

[misslinda]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I want to go raw. Im obese and miserable. Today Ive had so much caffiene that I am a nervous wreck tonight. So jumpy.

I want to go raw. From looking at the pictures everyone looks so happy and healthy.

Im not sure that I can go raw or have the time to eat enough food, if I do go raw.

help!

This is an older post you submitted months ago. Has this situation changes since NOT incorporating more fresh foods? From the previous posts you've done, it doesn't look as though you have been consistent. So whether you do RAW,Atkins,Zone,South Beach or Bloo t ype diet, each on eis at least going to say be consistent.

Honestly, ask yourself, how can raw kill you? Alissa has never told anyone to starve or eat only one kind of food. I mean if a 56 yr old man can cure himself from prostate cnacer thru live juices then how can aperson die from live foods? So many members here have healed form ovarian cysts,menoapuse,heart diease,dibetes etc. Noone claims to be a doctor but the healing is one to consider.

Best to you. ;)

[heabrook]

I don't think anything is all happy. Raw must have a 'darker' side or it would be a no brainer. Everyone everywhere would be doing this.

Not true. Just because a raw lifestyle is so fulfilling and healthy, does NOT mean that "everyone everywhere would be doing this."

There are some people who LOVE cooked food and are WAY too stubborn to give it up. Some people don't even realize that cooked food is bad for you, and they do not agree with eating all raw. Cooked food is an ADDICTION people!!!

People do not always realize what is good for them. Even if they do realize it, they don't always want to do whats right. THAT is why not everyone in the world is doing raw.

jorjeni made an excellent point about smoking. We all know its bad, but has everyone stopped smoking? No. Do people start smoking knowing that it is bad for you? Yes.

We know alcohol causes liver damage. Do people still drink it? Yes.

JUST because it's good for you doesn't mean everyone is going to do it. <--- Enough said there.

Think about it.

Also, why do you need scientific proof? Let yourself be the proof. Try the raw lifestyle and be the proof that you need. Just do it.

best,
heather

[Gosia]

"John and Jane", mum's bedtime story:

John and Jane sit amongs their friends at the table loaded with various types of foods. John, a tired-looking guy, asks "What is perfect health?". Jane thinks "Shall I try this?" and grabs an apple. John says "Prove to me that what you are eating is not making you sick.". Jane munches on the apple and says, "Mmm, maybe later." John decides that to be on safe side, he will eat what everyone else is eating. Jane's skin is glowing, she seems to be enjoying herself and her life. John says "What if you become HDA4 or B15 deficient?" as he munches on his food. Jane looks at him surprised and says "Oh?" and grabs more juicy apples. Then she says "You know, if've been eating like this for years and I feel really really great!". John looks at her with disaproval and says "Prove to me that your diet works!".

Now, my dear child, tell me, why Jane is so healthy, and why John is not? Why do you think her diet is working?

da da da

Yes dear, you are right. Clever darling!
Hug hug, kiss kiss. Good night!


Gosia

Don't miss out on the wonderful opportunity, Druid. Your health is in your hands. I wish you all the best. :)

[rawpriestess]

Druid,

you have every right to want to find scientific fact about the raw vegan lifestyle, but what I want to know, is why do you expect US on this board to find it for you?

since we are all not doctors, or scientists, or researchers, then probably not too many of us will be able to give you proof, and if we could, we would probably be publishing it in a book and selling it, not giving it away for free.

so, what you might choose to do, is to find the scientific proof that you are looking for, then post it here.

After all, the BEST way to find out what ever you want to know, is to make it your passion, and it certainly sounds like this is a passionate subject for you.

So, I'm not going to ask you why it is so important to you to know the scientific facts, as that isn't any of my business, and I personally don't care about the science of raw.

I'm into the magic of raw foods, so I simply eat it, and live a much more healthy and happy life.

What research have you done? Have you ready Paul Nison's books, what books have you read? What websites have you read?

there are indeed many many websites, and books about the physical changes and miraculous cures of people's diseases.

Hope you find the information you are looking for.

[rawpriestess]

Druid, have you read this thread, and seen this video, it is indeed Scientific proof that eating raw food CURES diabetes in less than 30 days, now THAT is very miraculous indeed

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/forum/sho...diabetes+cured

[Conscious Midwife]

DRUID

BE your own science experiment.

What do you have to loose?

What do you have to gain????

What's your current state of health, vitality and quality of life telling you now???

[Gosia]

1. There is evidence that low meat/dairy and hig-fruit diet lowers the risk of cancer, and vice-versa, that is a diet high in meat/dairy and low in fruit, makes this risk higher:
http://psa-rising.com/eatingwell/fruitvcalcium.htm

2. There is also evidence that meat increases the risk of cancer:
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/11/3534S
(scroll down to the 8-th abstract there)

3. Raw foods reduce the breast cancer risk:
Raw and Cooked Vegetables, Fruits, Selected Micronutrients, and Breast Cancer Risk: A Case-Control Study in Germany
Karl-Heinrich Adzersen, Patricia Jess, Klaus Wilhelm Freivogel, Ingrid Gerhard, Gunther Bastert
Nutrition and Cancer, July 2003, Vol. 46: 131-137
(doi:10.1207/S15327914NC4602_05)
Abstract:
In 1998-2000, a case-control study of breast cancer was conducted in Heidelberg, Germany. Three hundred ten consecutively recruited cases with primary breast cancer were matched according to 10-yr age groups to 353 controls with conditions unrelated to diet or endocrine disorders. Intake of raw vegetables, total vegetables, and whole-grain products was inversely associated with breast cancer risk (highest vs. lowest quartile adjusted odds ratio [OR] 0.51, 95% confidence interval [CI] 0.31-0.84; OR = 0.62, 95% CI = 0.38-1.02; and OR = 0.57; 95% CI = 0.34-0.95, respectively). Also, high intake of some selected vitamins and minerals possessing putative DNA-stabilizing properties displayed significant inverse risk associations. Adjusted ORs were as follows: vitamin C (OR = 0.49, 95% CI = 0.2-0.88), folate equivalents (OR = 0.47, 95% CI = 0.25-0.88), â-carotene (OR = 0.46, 95% CI = 0.27-0.80), zinc (OR = 0.35, 95% CI = 0.15-0.78), and copper (OR =0.51, 95% CI = .31-1.03). In contrast, no significant association with risk was seen for an increased intake of fruits, cooked vegetables, fiber, calcium, manganese, or iron. In this population of German women, components of raw vegetables and some micronutrients appear to decrease breast cancer risk.


4. Raw foods decrease the gastric cancer risk:
Effect of diet and Helicobacter pylori infection to the risk of early gastric cancer
Lee SA, Kang D, Shim KN, Choe JW, Hong WS, Choi HM
JOURNAL OF EPIDEMIOLOGY
13 (3): 162-168 MAY 2003
Abstract:
BACKGROUND: The association of dietary habits and Helicobacter pylori infection with early gastric cancer is still unclear.
METHODS: A hospital-based case-control study was conducted in Korea. Sixty-nine patients were newly diagnosed as having early gastric cancer at the Division of Gastroenterology, Asan Medical Center, and 199 healthy subjects who visited the Health Promotion Center of the this same hospital for annual health examinations were selected as controls. Helicobacter pylori infection status was assayed by ELISA, and information for dietary habits was obtained by interview using a semi-quantitative food frequency questionnaires. Preference for salty taste was also evaluated using a sensitive test.
RESULTS: H. pylori seropositivity was observed in 88% of cases, as compared with 75% of controls (OR=5.3, 95% confidence interval: 1.7-16.5). Adaptive salt concentration was significantly and positively associated with early gastric cancer risk (p<0.01). Decreased risks of early gastric cancer were observed in association with intakes of clear broth, raw vegetables, fruits, fruit or vegetable juices, and soybean curds. On the other hand, a high intake of salt-fermented fish and kimchi were associated with an elevated risk of early gastric cancer. Subjects with positive H. pylori infection and a high salty preference had a 10-fold higher risk of early gastric cancer than subjects without H. pylori infection and with a low salty preference (p for interaction = 0.047).


5. Fibromyalgia patients helped with mostly raw vegetarian diet:
BMC Complement Altern Med 2001;1(1):7
Fibromyalgia syndrome improved using a mostly raw vegetarian diet: An observational study.
Donaldson MS, Speight N, Loomis S. Hallelujah Acres Foundation, Shelby, NC USA. michael@hacres.com
BACKGROUND: Fibromyalgia engulfs patients in a downward, reinforcing cycle of unrestorative sleep, chronic pain, fatigue, inactivity, and depression. In this study we tested whether a mostly raw vegetarian diet would significantly improve fibromyalgia symptoms.
METHODS: Thirty people participated in a dietary intervention using a mostly raw, pure vegetarian diet. The diet consisted of raw fruits, salads, carrot juice, tubers, grain products, nuts, seeds, and a dehydrated barley grass juice product. Outcomes measured were dietary intake, the fibromyalgia impact questionnaire (FIQ), SF-36 health survey, a quality of life survey (QOLS), and physical performance measurements.
RESULTS: Twenty-six subjects returned dietary surveys at 2 months; 20 subjects returned surveys at the beginning, end, and at either 2 or 4 months of intervention; 3 subjects were lost to follow-up. The mean FIQ score (n = 20) was reduced 46% from 51 to 28. Seven of the 8 SF-36 subscales, bodily pain being the exception, showed significant improvement (n = 20, all P for trend < 0.01). The QOLS, scaled from 0 to 7, rose from 3.9 initially to 4.9 at 7 months (n = 20, P for trend 0.000001). Significant improvements (n = 18, P < 0.03, paired t-test) were seen in shoulder pain at rest and after motion, abduction range of motion of shoulder, flexibility, chair test, and 6-minute walk. 19 of 30 subjects were classified as responders, with significant improvement on all measured outcomes, compared to no improvement among non-responders. At 7 months responders' SF-36 scores for all scales except bodily pain were no longer statistically different from norms for women ages 45-54.
CONCLUSION: This dietary intervention shows that many fibromyalgia subjects can be helped by a mostly raw vegetarian diet.


6. Fibryomalgia and rheumatoid patients helped with living foods diet:
Acta Physiol Hung 1999;86(3-4):171-80
Vegan diet in physiological health promotion.
Hanninen O, Rauma AL, Kaartinen K, Nenonen M. Department of Physiology, University of Kuopio, Finland.
We have performed a number of studies including dietary interventions and cross-sectional studies on subjects consuming uncooked vegan food called living food (LF) and clarified the changes in several parameters related to health risk factors. LF consists of germinated seeds, cereals, sprouts, vegetables, fruits, berries and nuts. Some items are fermented and contain a lot of lactobacilli. The diet is rich in fiber. It has very little sodium, and it contains no cholesterol. Food items like berries and wheat grass juice are rich in antioxidants such as carotenoids and flavonoids. The subjects eating living food show increased levels of carotenoids and vitamins C and E and lowered cholesterol concentration in their sera. Urinary excretion of sodium is only a fraction of the omnivorous controls. Also urinary output of phenol and p-cresol is lowered as are several fecal enzyme levels which are considered harmful. The rheumatoid arthritis patients eating the LF diet reported amelioration of their pain, swelling of joints and morning stiffness which all got worse after finishing LF diet. The composite indices of objective measures showed also improvement of the rheumatoid arthritis patients during the intervention. The fibromyalgic subjects eating LF lost weight compared to their omnivorous controls. The results on their joint stiffness and pain (visual analogue scale), on their quality of sleep, on health assessment questionnaire and on general health questionnaire all improved. It appears that the adoption of vegan diet exemplified by the living food leads to a lessening of several health risk factors to cardiovascular diseases and cancer. Rheumatoid patients subjectively benefited from the vegan diet which was also seen in serum parameters and fecal analyses.


7. The colon of a cooked foodist is full of toxins implicated in colon cancer risk:
J Nutr 1992 Apr;122(4):924-30
Shifting from a conventional diet to an uncooked vegan diet reversibly alters fecal hydrolytic activities in humans.
Ling WH, Hanninen O. Department of Physiology, University of Kuopio, Finland.
We studied the effect on fecal hydrolytic activities of adopting an uncooked extreme vegan diet and readopting a conventional diet. Eighteen subjects were randomly divided into test and control groups. In the test group subjects adopted the uncooked extreme vegan diet for 1 mo and then resumed a conventional diet for a second month. Controls consumed a conventional diet throughout the study. Phenol and p-cresol concentrations in serum and daily output in urine and fecal enzyme activities were measured. The activity of fecal urease significantly decreased (by 66%) as did cholylglycine hydrolase (55%), beta-glucuronidase (33%) and beta-glucosidase (40%) within 1 wk of beginning the vegan diet. The new level remained throughout the period of consuming this diet. Phenol and p-cresol concentrations in serum and daily outputs in urine significantly declined. The fecal enzyme activities returned to normal values within 2 wk of resuming the conventional diet. Concentrations of phenol and p-cresol in serum and daily output in urine had returned to normal after 1 mo of consuming the conventional diet. No changes were observed in the control group during the study. Results suggest that this uncooked extreme vegan diet causes a decrease in bacterial enzymes and certain toxic products that have been implicated in colon cancer risk.


8. If you do google search using the phrase "secondary-plant-metabolites cooking", some info on how cooking affects certain nutrients in plants. Some very interesting research has been done and cooking has been reported to destroy those so called secondary plant metabolites. Secondary plant metabolites have been shown to fight cancer, so coking them (and plants) is NOT a good idea! See:
http://www.ifr.bbsrc.ac.uk/Diet/GItract_EFGLU.html


9. I heard of studies that show that broccoli should be eaten raw if one wants to benefit from the anti-cancer properties of this vegetable. The study was mentioned on the news (Australia).


There is plenty more out there. How about you do the search and share the results with us. We will be interested to hear. To do this, you can use, for example this link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

Best,
Gosia.

[Colin]

There is a web site that lists the supposed dangers of a raw diet but I don't care to spend much time at it. It mentions how eating raw causes obsession with food and a too high expectations causing people to feel a failure for not maintaining 100% raw etc. But I don't get hooked into it because I personally believe that it is not a raw diet that causes problems. It is my own nature that wants to obsess with food and also wants to eat junk and make eating such a 'religion' as opposed to my having a healthy relationship with food and eating and my body.

[rawpriestess]

I have seen that sight,
and I believe it isn't a website about raw, I believe it is a one page post about debunking raw, and talks about the obsessions of any kind of "diet" but you see, eating raw is alot better to obsess about than any other food plan.

and actually eating raw foods is NOT a diet, it is a natural and easy life plan.

I mean just think what diet could you eat if you were stranded on an island? or in the jungle or anywhere, with no utensils, cooking appliances and no matches.

Now which diet is the most natural?

any where you go in the world, you can get raw foods, any place in the world you can pick and eat foods that are "GOOD" for you to eat.

you may have to purchase the food because someone owns the land, but just think, everywhere that people can live, you can get food,
Now I'm not talkinga bout antarctica because I don't believe it is natural for us to live there, but if you look at the big picture, you will see that you can indeed live on raw foods anywhere in the world.

[eatyourbroccoli]

Raw must have a 'darker' side or it would be a no brainer. Everyone everywhere would be doing this.

everyone is not doing it like this because they are so conditioned by society to eat cooked, canned, processed, fast food. most dont realize how large of an effect society has on them. the ONLY reason society DOES NOT "back up raw foods" in general is simple: money.

if EVERYONE lived off fair trade or locally grown oragnic fruits/veggies/nuts/seeds, what the heck would happen to the big money corporations that rely on selling cooked, processed food? they'd cease to exist. and since MANY government-associated people hold stock in these companies, the downfall of these corporations would negatively affect THEIR bankroll. hense the reason of the necessary disclaimers on all RAW websites that say "this is not intended to treat, prevent, or cure any disease because only medicine can do that. we are just providing information," when that is such a lie because RAW DOES treat, prevent, and cure almost ALL diseases.

it may seem like a no brainer, but many people refuse to go against what is "scientifically proven" and what is "FDA supported!"

but when is the last time the FDA and the scientists supported by our government have REALLY had the citizens' best interest in mind OVER their own financial gain?

when they approved adderall XR for the treatment of ADHD in children, only to find that it began causing heart attacks in young, otherwise healthy children..to the point that it is now banned in canada?

when they force commercials on us to remind us to eat pork "the other white meat" and suggestingly question "got milk?"

when they (insert one of the 3,459,394,934 other times theyve misguided us)?

yea...no.

and before contemporary society/culture..even in parts of the world today that have remained (luckily) little touched..they did follow and are following a diet predominately of RAW, uncooked (or cooked at very low temperatures/sundried) food. and look at how phenomenal the bodies of native americans, mayans, egyptians, were.

how can we tell what their bodies were like? science. the scientific analyzation of mummies and other archeological findings.

THAT is where science belongs. with history. not with the alteration of food and the support of a SAD diet that is so OBVIOUSLY not working (think: obesity, heart disease, anemia, mental illness, diabetes, cancer..)

be well

ash