how many take b12 supplements?

[Shivananda]

I don't mind folks being stubborn about what they see as the truth despite overwhelming evidence against it. Matter of fact, I've got some of those unprovable beliefs myself. Sometimes people call me a pioneer for it, or "ahead of my time." Sometimes people say I'm a trend setter. Sometimes people say I'm an idiot or deluded.

But one thing I have learned to understand and accept about my own often unpopular beliefs is that if my particular thought matrix is such that I don't believe in the existence of yellow tomatoes, say, and I think they are just a myth, and I publically say "There is no such thing as a yellow tomato," and then somebody shows up and hands me a genuine yellow tomato, it's probably a pretty good time to stop and reexamine my position.

And frankly, that has turned out to be the case most often in my own life whenever I have taken a totally black vs white position, and become blind to to the gray in the middle where so much that is true actually lives. If there is any rule that seems to universally apply to people it is that there IS NO RULE that universally applies to everyone.

What does Cousens say in that article Alissa quoted in the Index? (Thanks RawTruth for the reminder it was there) There are one million four hundred thousand genetic variations in our DNA. How could we possibly all be the same? So any statement that starts out with "everyone" or "no one" is practically doomed to failure. And part of what I appreciate about Ayurvedic medicine is that it begins with an appreciation of those inherent differences, and takes them into account both in diagnosis and in prescription.

So while some may get away just fine their whole lifetime without B12 supplementation... Cousens himself says he may be part of that small group... there are just as clearly others who cannot, and who suffer disease as a result. I have two of those "yellow tomatoes" in my own life, and others have posted here in this thread, so it seems ridiculous to me to keep saying their existence is a myth.

[heabrook]

** Please note I am not trying to say that you should not supplement your diet with B12 **

I do not believe in taking B12 every day. In my opinion, through research that I have done, it is not necessary to take B12 on an every day ongoing basis. It is estimated that we hold a three-year store of vitamin B12 in our bodies. Therefore, in my opinion, once a week or a few times a month is sufficient enough.

B12 is made by microorganisms found in the soil and by microorganisms in the intestines of animals (including us). But, the amount made in our intestines is not adequately absorbed, so it is not enough to live on.

Also, just to clarify, animal products are not the only source of B12. They are, however at this time, thought to be the only stable source of B12. That is because conventional food is not grown in healthy soil with enough B12 to supply the body (plus, most people clean the food rigorously before eating it). Organic food has more of a supply of B12, however it is impossible to judge how much B12 you are absorbing by eating organic since our produce comes from a variety of places.

My suggestions is to monitor your B12 levels by having a doctor check them. That is truly the best way to make sure you are getting enough B12. Whatever the result is, you can better judge what to do from there.

[Gosia]

Hi Nora, thanks! I am waving here!

It's true, I am a very determined person (my husband can confirm this :) ). I do not get convinced easily, or scared off by arguments that defy logic and my common sense. True, it takes a lot of determination to continue spread the truth, but I know that it's worth it!

There is a Polish saying, which very much relates to how I feel about all this, "The darkest spot is under the street lamp". What it means is that people often are unable to recognize simple truths, no matter how obvious they are.

I do understand that those beliefs that you mentioned, Nora, are the extension of the arms of the old cooked-food-tradition octopus, in which it is believed that one needs to supplement, occasionanlly see a doctor (who supposedly knows better than your body, and never eliminates the cause of disease anyway), take harmful vaccines allegedly to fight off diseases, and do everyting but change their lifestyle to the one that nature intended. So, I understand that the evolution that is currently taking place, thanks to raw foodism, will take some time. It is a gradual process. I believe that humans eventually will realize that their minds are not better than the nature, from which they can learn more than by reading fractured "scientific" (true science never defies the nature) articles.

Even though, or should I say, thanks to my highly analytical mind (since I was as little as 4, I was analyzing the world around me, reading scientific aritcles at the age of 8), I know that nature does not need to be proved to be right. Nature is right. It is humans who sometimes think that they know better.

Gosia.

[CorporalChicken]

< a newbie that has read the b12 stuff but has questions!

Hi folks. I believe that people should be vegan for supreme health, that anything less is asking for trouble.

Raw food I totally agree with as well, as it basically makes perfect sense!

Here lies my problem. I think humans were born to be vegan. I also think we were born to eat raw food... but if B12 is essential to the human body yet can only be found as an 'extra' in sources outside our natural fruit and veg then this pretty much screws up my idealogy ;-)

If meat and dairy had never existed as a diet and we'd all been vegans for centuries... where would we be getting our b12 from right now?

Thanks :)

[heabrook]

Here lies my problem. I think humans were born to be vegan. I also think we were born to eat raw food... but if B12 is essential to the human body yet can only be found as an 'extra' in sources outside our natural fruit and veg then this pretty much screws up my idealogy ;-)

If meat and dairy had never existed as a diet and we'd all been vegans for centuries... where would we be getting our b12 from right now?

Thanks :)

read my post above
I stated:

Also, just to clarify, animal products are not the only source of B12. They are, however at this time, thought to be the only stable source of B12. That is because conventional food is not grown in healthy soil with enough B12 to supply the body (plus, most people clean the food rigorously before eating it). Organic food has more of a supply of B12, however it is impossible to judge how much B12 you are absorbing by eating organic since our produce comes from a variety of places.

Our soil used to be very nutritious and therefore our vegetables would have adequate amounts of vitamins and minerals.

Another source of B12 is nutritional yeast (grown on molasses)

Studies are starting to show that some seaweeds have high levels of B12.

[Shivananda]

Hi CC,

There are actually several natural sources of B12 that may have been available to our ancestors that are not generally part of a modern diet... for... um... several reasons.

1) A number of animals eat their own feces, apparently for this very reason. But personally I've just never found the right dehydrator setting to get them to come out right, myself.

2) Root vegetables, if not cleaned of all their dirt, can be a significant source. Especially if the vegetables have been fertilized with human waste. Care for some beet chips?

3) Insects infesting the food are an often unsuspected source of B12 in primitive cultures that disappear when modern sanitation standards are applied. Some researchers believe this factor is behind the widely reported problem of B12 deficiencies that arise when Indian vegetarians emigrate to western cultures like London, and keep eating the exact same food, but start getting sick.

4) Fungi and natural yeast growth are another possible source, including rotten fruit and vegetables.

5) Seaweed and algae are another possible source. Like a pondscum smoothie?

In any case, theory aside, it's not hard to find a way today to get what you need. And you do need it. That's exactly why it is called a vitamin, because it is a nutrient that you only need in very small quantities, but which will cause disease if it is missing or deficient.

[CorporalChicken]

Ahhhhhhhhhm thanks heabrook and shivanda!

Sorry if I was re-asking anything anyone had said... I read very fast and sometimes only bits sink in! I was kind of proposing the idea of how we would live in a vegan world without supplements and fortified foods :-) Of course, if we lived in a vegan world, I like to think I wouldn't be living near a capital city choked to the ceiling with fumes where organic veg is considered a luxury item!

LOL @ the poo dehydrator and beet chips! You know, I don't think I'd have a problem with human poo as long as it definitely wasn't full of rotting semi-digested meat and chemicals!

Does this mean that a lifetime of animal cruelty and ecological damage means that some of us are forced to take supplements in our goal to have a natural diet?

That's prejudice!

[theresaann]

well, I've read compelling arguments on both sides of this issue-the pro-supplementation is very scientific and anecdotal heavy, the con-side is very ideological and not scientifically backed.

I figure it this way-it's not a line in the sand that I"m willing to stake my health on so I swallow a whole-food multi-vitamin with B's in it a few times a week-may GOD not strike me dead..... ;)

[Gosia]

CorporalChicken, thanks for this good, inquisitive question. You are on the right track. :) Yes, humans were meant to be vegans (incindentally, there is a lot of supporting evidence for this, if one wishes, including our build and genetic make-up). And no, veganism does not cause deficiences, so called B12 deficiency is observed in all types of foodists (cooked, non-vegetarian), and it is not observed in all vegans. By the way, there exist several-generation-vegan families, who are not even raw, and they have no deficiency problems. As a raw foodist, assuming that you eat wholesome foods, have enough rest and exercise, you have even less reason to worry. B12 and anything else that your body needs from foods, is found in raw foods. Your ideology is perfect, the assumption about needing anything from non-vegan sources is wrong. Enjoy your foods!

The following quote (apologies if you had read it already) is relevant to your question:

" Vitamin B12 coenzymes are found in nuts and seeds as well as in many common greens, fruits, and many vegetables. If we ate 100 grams of green beans, beets, carrots, and peas we would have half of our so-called daily minimum requirement of Vitamin B12 coenzymes providing our digestion and absorption are normal. From Rodale's The Complete Book of Vitamins, page 236 we find the following clarification: “As you know, the B complex of vitamins is called a ‘complex’ because, instead of being one vitamin, it has turned out to be a large number of related vitamins, which appear generally in the same foods.”

A little publicized source of active Vitamin B12 coenzymes is from bacteria in the mouth, around the teeth, in the nasopharynx, around the tonsils and in the tonsilar crypts, in the folds at the base of the tongue, and in the upper bronchial tree. This source alone will supply sufficient quantities of Vitamin B12 coenzymes for the very small requirement of total vegetarians, especially considering that their needs for this vitamin are not as great as for those on conventional diets. "

(Dr Vetrano, http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html)

Gosia.

[karenisraw]

Does anyone know where the B-12 comes from that is put into vitamin and mineral suppliments? Is it from animals or somewhere else?

k
:)

[misslinda]

Gosia or any other articulate individual of clinical/scientific language,

I read the B-12 Cousens article for the 3rd time (Alissa provided). To understand, the enterophic (sp?) pattern is the "channel" that B-12 flows? It's the malonic acid that hinders absorption? why would it interfere and what is the significance of it? Instead of b-12 deficiency, isit the malonic acid tht raises that ovetakes b-12? I hope I sound competent




This is a question for ONLY those that had been deficient confirmed by means of testing and supplemented and then tested again.


Of all B-12 supplements ( food,shots or pills) that you tried, which balanced your B-12?

[Forever Young]

A lot of the problem with B12 deficiencys is from the colon not being cleaned out enough to absorb the nutrient's from raw food plants. It takes years to clean the colon completely to receive 100% benefit from organic raw foods. So if you aren't willing to clean yourself out then take your supplement's and be safe. Forever Young

[misslinda]

FY, I agree but then I reread the Cousens article and even mentions that it cannot be absorbed b/c of the malonic acide and trying to keep those levels low seems to be one of the challenges????

I'm dizzy from reading that article

[Forever Young]

MissLinda....."I'm dizzy from reading that article".........

Well then take some supplements...maybe you are lacking in B12.....LOL!

[misslinda]

OMG, that was too funny!
Got me on that