Other raw vinegars besides apple cider? Teeth question, too :)

[julesmoz]

Hi, all :)

What raw vinegars are available besides apple cider vinegar? Is raw balsamic vinegar available anywhere?

Also, is it bad for my teeth to always be eating acidic things like vinegar and citrus fruits? Are there precautions to keep in mind as a raw foodist regarding my teeth?

[Arky]

If you do a search for 'tooth' or 'teeth' on this forum (click the banana at the top of the screen), you'll find plenty of discussion on the topic, and quite in depth, too.


With regard to vinegar, this needn't be bad for your teeth provided you immediately rinse away, or at least neutralize, the acid after eating/drinking it. Swilling some bicarbonate of soda (AKA baking soda) around your mouth (with water!) will neutralize acids in your mouth very effectively. Also, chew greens regularly, particularly dark green ones, as they are both alkaline (and thus serve to neutralize acids in the mouth) and also serve to help remineralize teeth.

Those threads aside, there's a bit about remineralization here:

http://www.eco-dent.com/Remin%20screen.pdf

and some general info/recommendations here:

http://www.healthfree.com/paa0095.htm

and some excellent dental resources here (I myself have ordered items from this source, even though I live across the Atlantic, in the UK. I also highly recommend his .pdf articles). You need to investigate the links carefully on this webpage because they are not immediately evident, but if you scratch around you'll find a heck of a lot of very worthwhile information:

http://www.mizar5.com/



On a more general note, while citric (e.g. from citrus fruits)and malic (e.g. from apples) acids are generally considered to be reasonably healthy, in moderation, you should avoid consuming them too regularly, and should definitely avoid consuming acetic acid (e.g. balsamic & malt vinegars, I believe). Dr. Norman Walker was an extremely outspoken critic of acetic acid and he was/is far from alone in this outlook.


J.

[julesmoz]

Arky,

Thanks so much for the thorough reply! I'm really interested to look into those links :)

[Chom Poo]

Wow...This helped me out too. I never thought about too much acid on my teeth. Looks like I need to buy more baking soda.

[jenjenn]

Thank you so much julzmoz and arky for asking this question and answering it, I checked out that mizor website and ordered a floss type cleaner for my teeth. :D

[Arky]

Thank you so much julzmoz and arky for asking this question and answering it, I checked out that mizor website and ordered a floss type cleaner for my teeth. :D


May I just say that I have always looked upon oral irrigators as an unnecessary luxury, but having done some proper reading on the subject, and bought one (well, two, actually!), I don't know how I ever managed without one. Honestly, the debris that an irrigator removes from between the teeth, even after a very thorough brushing with Philips' excellent Sonicare Elite toothbrush, has to be seen to be believed. Dried fruit is often quoted as being a raw-foodist gotcha, in terms of sticking to the teeth and accelerating dental decay. Well, let me tell you that an irrigator proves this in no uncertain terms!

Even more importantly, though, an irrigator allows me to clean debris and destroy bacteria beneath the gumline - I have, in the short term (i.e. overnight), literally stopped toothache in its tracks by irrigating beneath the gumline (evidently removing acids that have built up there as a consequence of bacterial activity).

I bought an Interplak Dental Waterjet Duo here, in the UK http://www.oraldent.co.uk/interplak.asp, but if you're in the USA, then check out the ViaJet Pro from the mizar5 link in my earlier post.

Recently, I also purchased a Panasonic EW1270AC (http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=15001&catalogId=13401&itemId=63181&catGroupId=25094&modelNo=EW1270AC&surfModel=EW1270AC&cacheProgram=11002&cachePartner=7000000000000005702) battery-powered irrigator (via eBay, although you can get them from Amazon.com, too) and although the batteries do run down very quickly, I find this is absolutely no problem using 2600mah rechargeable batteries (2xAA), which give a respectable power-life of 20-25 irrigation sessions (4 tanksful - that's 1 tank for each quadrant of the mouth, equals 1 total session). In fact, I love this unit so much that I use it not only portably but also, frequently, at home, instead of the mains-based Waterjet Duo Pro (note that the Duo Pro is better than the Panasonic but the sheer convenience of the Panasonic is what keeps me using it, and what encourages me to routinely/regularly irrigate my teeth and gums). If you wish to use antibacterial agents, please note that essential oils and alcohol-based mouthwashes are not acceptable as they damage the plastic components of irrigators. If you look at the Panasonic on Amazon, you will note that there are some negative reviews, which made me think twice but which I now know, having gone ahead with my purchase, are valid, but far outweighed by the positives of the device. Yes, you will have to refill the tank 4 times per session, and yes, it does guzzle battery life, but buy yourself some 2600mah rechargeable AAs and accept the tank refilling issue, and I assure you you will soon see these are trivial in comparison to the benefits of using the thing.

Anyway, I urge all of you to seriously consider buying an irrigator of some description - you will not be disappointed, I'm so glad I bought mine.


J.

[jaurequi]

Thanks for that info Arky !!

[Arky]

Oh yeah, they also leave your mouth feeling unbelievably fresh... :)


J.

[jaurequi]

Hey, Arky, I just received my viajet pro!
Now I'm afraid to use it, lol.
Actually, I got it yesterday, and I haven't had time to read it thoroughly.

I'm wondering how often you use it. How often would you recommend for best results?

I intend on using it as my last cleaning of the day for sure.

Also, (sorry if I don't use the correct terminology or explain it well, since I haven't read it through) I was thinking of using the sprayer heads for a couple weeks first before I move on to the (rather scary!) sharp-needle-deep pocket thingys (yikes).

What do you think of this? Yes, partly, I'm afraid! But I also read the caution that it may be painful at first using the needle heads; so would cleaning with the sprayer first for a while be best?

Got any more tips for me? :D
Thanks!

[jaurequi]

***bump***

[Arky]

Hey, Arky, I just received my viajet pro!

That's great! I'm so glad you took the leap of faith and bought one - I know you will rapidly appreciate that it was a worthwhile addition to your oral hygiene arsenal!



I'm wondering how often you use it. How often would you recommend for best results?

I intend on using it as my last cleaning of the day for sure.

I use an irrigator once a day - at night time. Provided you take care, you could use it in the morning, too, but I prefer to let my gums rest a little so once every 24hours works fine for me. If you go with once-every-24hrs as your rule of thumb, then you should definitely do it at the end of the day. This is because, as I mentioned previously, a great deal of bacterial damage can take place at night, owing to reduced salivation during sleep, particularly if you sleep with your mouth open (saliva contains bacteria inhibitors). Secondly, it is vitally important to remove sugars and food debris from the day's food consumption, so that they do not have 7-9hrs to feed bacteria in your mouth, during sleep.




Also, I was thinking of using the sprayer heads for a couple weeks first before I move on to the (rather scary!) sharp-needle-deep pocket thingys (yikes).

Yes, that's fine, and it's actually quite a good idea to do this, in order to become comfortable, both physically and psychologically, with the ViaJet. I went straight in at the deep end, so-to-speak, and I did fine although I did learn very quickly that the water jet is a good deal more powerful than one might expect, and if used on full power, is capable of damaging your gums if you are careless. Don't let this worry you - it really is as simple as starting out on low power and gradually increasing the power as you go, until just before you reach the edge of your comfort zone. My gums are in fairly good condition, and I can happily use my Interplak unit on about 90% power with no problems (I don't know how the Interplak and ViaJet compare on power terms, but I suspect they will be very similar indeed). Note that you will discover, as you explore your gums with the ViaJet, that some areas of the gums are more resilient to high-power irrigation than others, so, when gradually increasing the irrigation power, you should increase, by increments, only by irrigating the whole mouth on each increased setting before advancing further, rather than trying it at, say, 70% on one area of gum, and then automatically assuming that because it's comfortable to increase the power there to 85%, that it will be just as comfortable for the rest of the mouth - it may be, but it's better to err on the side of caution. I find the area of gum just behind-and-between my 2 upper front teeth is more sensitive than the rest of my mouth and can sting a little if I use too powerful a jet there. In short, don't be afraid of the unit, just use it sensibly and incrementally and you'll soon find your comfort level and really enjoy using the device. Also, bear in mind that the sub-gingival nozzle is mainly intended for users who have significant gum pockets (periodontal disease). If you do not have severe (greater than 4mm) gum pockets, then, provided you can get a nozzle directly adjacent to the gumline, you can very probably satisfy all your irrigation needs without using the sub-gingival applicator. Only you (or your dentist) will know what state your gums are in, and thus how necessary a sub-gingival irrigator applicator will be. Personally, I find my Panasonic, for example, to be excellent, and this has an applicator which is actually about 3mm wide, at the tip. Nonetheless, the water pressure is adequate to penetrate a few mm beneath my gumline and that's good for my purposes. As a mtter of fact, I would strongly counsel you against using the sub-gingival applicator unless you know that you really need to use it, since careless use could result in damaging your gums. The nozzle I use with my Interplak irrigator is conical, going from 6mm (1/4") down to 1.5mm (1/16"), over a conical length of about half an inch (12.5mm). This is great for accurate irrigation along the gumline without fear of 'hooking' into a gum pocket and causing unnecessary damage. Sub-gingival applicators of the type available for the ViaJet pro are not inherently dangerous, it's just that you really need to be proficient with the irrigator, and extremely careful with how you pass it along the gumline.




Got any more tips for me? :D
Thanks!


Yes, as I mentioned in an earlier post, be careful what additives you use in your ViaJet's fluid dispenser, as some may damage the unit (I find my Panasonic less resilient than my Interplak, in this respect, since the Panasonic is constructed with a sliding body that relies upon silicone 'O'-rings that expand detrimentally if exposed to certain mouthwash chemicals. Note that this is not a criticism of the unit, it's simply a caution). The Interplak seems to have no problems at all in this regard, although I remain cautious. You might like to e-mail Tom Cornwell or ViaJet's manufacturers for specific advice on chemicals to avoid when using the unit. I would just like to point out that I would NEVER recommend the use of alcohol-based solutions, since, although they are astringent, and thus hinder bleeding in certain circumstances, alcohol can damage the gum tissue and is also linked (with regular and sustained usage) to certain oral cancers.

If memeory serves me correctly (which it might not!) Tom Cornwell mentions somewhere in his literature that he occasionally irrigates with a fluid solution which is basically just bicarbonate of soda dissolved in warm water. While I have absolutely no objection to this from a health standpoint, I found that it is actually difficult to get the bicarb of soda to remain properly dissolved, and this clogged my Interplak completely, so although I often manually rinse with bicarb-in-water, I don't use this solution in my irrigators (often, I settle for using just warm water, actually, since although this isn't perfect, given that it does not kill bacteria, it does remove virtually all sources of sustainance for potential bacteria). Do bear in mind that is would definitely be wise (essential, really) to include an antibacterial agent in your irrigation fluid if you have a high detrimental bacteria count in your mouth http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=93875#post93875 (read Tom Cornwell's excellent 'Money By The Mouthful' e-book for info on this - I bought it & I feel it was a very worthwhile investment - it's hardly expensive, either). Once you've brought high levels of oral bacteria under control, the necessity for antibacterial additives in your irrigation fluid will lessen.

In terms of fluid temperature, you want to use fluid that is as close to body temperature as possible - too hot and you'll damage the gums; too cold and you may also damage the gums. It's very easy to adjust the temperature to a 'tepid' level that feels 'natural' when one's finger is immersed in the solution.

Lastly, don't forget that alkalinity is your friend, not just in the body as a whole, but also in the oral cavity (mouth), since it serves at least two purposes here, namely to furnish the saliva (and thus teeth) with good quantities of calcium, for remineralization, and also to inhibit bacterial proliferation, since bacteria much prefer an anaerobic/acidic environment.

Hope I answered your questions adequately, let me know if you have any more.

Also, in case you didn't notice it, there's a related discussion here:

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11285


J.

[rawpriestess]

I have heard the acv is the only raw vinegar, but I could be mistaken, as it was not me who researched this data.

[jaurequi]

Arky, thanks so much for responding :)

I actually tried it a few days ago.

It's funny because the water pressure isn't very strong to me, lol. At first I thought it was the product, but, the truth is, I'm one of those people who has a high tolerance for pain and I also don't feel things physically -- or rather, I'm not sensitive physically. For example, with massages, I require it to be done with a great deal of pressure. Anyway, I guess it's doing the job...I had it all the way to high pressure and it was fine (but messy! Splashed all over).

Do you think this may be bad for my gums, causing them to recede? I would hate to actually contribute to the problem...

I sort of figured out that the baking soda wouldn't be a good idea in the water receptacle; so I just put baking soda on my teeth with my tooth brush and sprayed. I put some hydrogen peroxide in the water, which worked fine. Mouth felt fresh, but normally does with baking soda and peroxide anyway. Not sure if it's doing anything different, really.

What's your opinion on peroxide? Is there any downside that you know?
Would you have any recommendation for an antibacterial aside from oils, which I wouldn't want to use? I do have some grapefruit seed extract, but don't know if that would be good to use, how often to use, or if it might cause a problem with the unit.
I don't use mouthwashes anymore (though some days I get a little crazy with the garlic and probably should!)

Thanks for the caution and advice with the deep pocket subgingival (needles!:p) applicator. I was disappointed to read in the instructions to go to the dentist to ask for instruction on how to use it! Sounds dangerous; so I will definitely not try it alone. I did want to clean deep, though, which is why I bought it; however, my dental exams have all been good and even improved. Perhaps I don't need it; but it would be nice to get a nice deep cleaning for, if nothing else, peace of mind!
But let me ask you: Do you actually slip the needle into your gums? Yikes. I'll tell ya, I'm getting visions of Sir Laurence Olivier with a needle :D

I know you're not a dentist, so I apologize if my questions appear to expect too much. I would ask you these type questions if I knew you in person, though :) I appreciate your being helpful and kind in sharing your experience.
Thanks!