a family nightmare

[corky]

I just got this forwarded to me from a vegan friend and just thought i would put it out there for everyone to read--seems very tragic. Check out www.familynightmare.org for the raw food family story--has anyone else heard of this?
Shelley

[flutterfly]

I just read the story and all the bad things the newspaper said. I feel so sorry for the parents.
37 years ago my Son was killed in Fla. There was a cover -up and it was never investigated. I begged them to do something about it and they never did. Now they are doing all this to two fine parents, it makes my blood boil. Fla. is one State I would never live in again.

[Rawkinlocs]

This is horrible...utterly ridiculous!! I mean, of course if the parents and the children were extremely obese, the kitchen was stocked with cases of Twinkies, several 2 liter bottles of soda pop, bags of candy and chips and one of the children died of a heart attack or asthema attack then there wouldn't be such measures taken against the parents.

But have healthy, vibrant kids who eat healthy and eat a diet that isn't mainstream and all he** breaks loose for the parents.

Very shameful indeed :( :mad:

[ksabe98]

OMG I just read this story and am so sad. Those children are gorgeous. They not only don't look emaciated or ill but even look like they have the normal baby fat and healthy appearance of all other children who are healthy. I just get sick when people don't use common sense. Someone came along and went bananas over these folks for some personal reason that doesn't have anything to do with the facts, and not for reasons that benefit these children or the parents. Crazy. I hope that they can find someone to help them that knows how to open people's eyes and make a difference here.
Lisa

[misslinda]

I have formed my own opinion regarding this "potential" case. I don't think that authorities and the system are suggesting that organic fruits and vegetables or raw food is bad, but it's possible for some to take their lifestyle to extremes. I personally do not think that a child should be administered enemas like the parents admitted on a number of occassions. I'm not crazy about conventional medecine but there are alot of diagnostic and standard tests/procedures that are helpful. More so, they could have been seeing a ND. Children need many many nutrients to develop properly. I don't feel sorry for these parents--I feel sorry for the children and the unfortunate child that passed.

A Personal opinion.
linda

[misslinda]

You're right Fightyorke, 2 sides to every story.

I don't believe (based on what I have read) that these parents set out to "kill" their child but I do believe that they are guilty of "neglect." I mean that interms of neglecting them of medical care in early life. From one of the raw food organizations, the child that "passed" was delivered by the father's sister or himself. The other children were born with the assistance of a midwife. I'm highly disturbed by the insult on these children--I can't believe the mother fed the child wheatgrass juice as her formula (!!!!)


heart goes to the children,
linda

[Rawkinlocs]

Didn't they say this child was born with some sort of rare birth defect and that any child who has ever been born with it lived only a few weeks (or was it months)? I think if it was what the parents did or didn't do on behalf of the child, they wouldn't have ANY children.

I mean, someone has cancer and they go through all the radiation and whatever other treatments and end up dying anyway...do doctor's get blamed or take blame? No. But let a person with cancer go to a fasting clinic and end up dying and watch them try to or succeed at shutting the place down!

And what's wrong with home delivery or unassisted birth? Storm and Jinjee (also raw foodists) did unassisted births and they're children are beautiful and healthy. Many people do that.

We're SO programmed to believe we NEED MD's that all the natural things we used to do before all this modern technology came along is now deemed as "extreme". Well, everyone has their own opinions of what is extreme. Heck, my sister-in-law said we were "extreme" when she found out we had become vegetarian. Vegetarian, not vegan, not raw-vegan...vegetarian...because we no longer ate meat...that, in her words, was extreme.

Again, pictures can be painted to make someone look worse than they really are. ...ESPECIALLY when they go against the grain of society...oh yeah, make 'em look REALLY bad (go ahead, call me a conspiracy theorist...I don't care).

I don't know how old the baby was that died, but on those family photos taken before all this happened, I saw an infant and in the caption, it said that baby is now 3...all the other kids looked very healthy and happy. Again, if what the parents did was so detrimental, why do they still have 5 living children? Things happen, to SAD families, to vegetarian families, to vegan and raw vegan families.

When my 16-year old cousin dropped dead right in his school gymnasium from a HEART ATTACK, why weren't his parents investigated, put on trial, sent to jail for feeding him foods that contributed to it?

I'm sorry to get so personal about this, but as a parent who is trying to convert her children to a raw diet, I feel very offended by the thought that if, God forbid, one of my children died that my husband and I and a raw diet would be the sole blame when children die all the time due to illnesses brought on by poor, crappy SAD diets.

I think I need to stay out of this thread because it's becoming a little too personal to me. I can have disagreements, but for some reason this is just getting to me. :(

[flutterfly]

Didn't they say this child was born with some sort of rare birth defect and that any child who has ever been born with it lived only a few weeks (or was it months)? I think if it was what the parents did or didn't do on behalf of the child, they wouldn't have ANY children.

I mean, someone has cancer and they go through all the radiation and whatever other treatments and end up dying anyway...do doctor's get blamed or take blame? No. But let a person with cancer go to a fasting clinic and end up dying and watch them try to or succeed at shutting the place down!

And what's wrong with home delivery or unassisted birth? Storm and Jinjee (also raw foodists) did unassisted births and they're children are beautiful and healthy. Many people do that.

We're SO programmed to believe we NEED MD's that all the natural things we used to do before all this modern technology came along is now deemed as "extreme". Well, everyone has their own opinions of what is extreme. Heck, my sister-in-law said we were "extreme" when she found out we had become vegetarian. Vegetarian, not vegan, not raw-vegan...vegetarian...because we no longer ate meat...that, in her words, was extreme.

Again, pictures can be painted to make someone look worse than they really are. ...ESPECIALLY when they go against the grain of society...oh yeah, make 'em look REALLY bad (go ahead, call me a conspiracy theorist...I don't care).

I don't know how old the baby was that died, but on those family photos taken before all this happened, I saw an infant and in the caption, it said that baby is now 3...all the other kids looked very healthy and happy. Again, if what the parents did was so detrimental, why do they still have 5 living children? Things happen, to SAD families, to vegetarian families, to vegan and raw vegan families.

When my 16-year old cousin dropped dead right in his school gymnasium from a HEART ATTACK, why weren't his parents investigated, put on trial, sent to jail for feeding him foods that contributed to it?

I'm sorry to get so personal about this, but as a parent who is trying to convert her children to a raw diet, I feel very offended by the thought that if, God forbid, one of my children died that my husband and I and a raw diet would be the sole blame when children die all the time due to illnesses brought on by poor, crappy SAD diets.

I think I need to stay out of this thread because it's becoming a little too personal to me. I can have disagreements, but for some reason this is just getting to me. :(
I am with you on this Rawkinlocs. I am very offended by what Misslinda wrote.
That baby lived for only five months but the avarage baby born with that defect only lives a few weeks to two months. I feel very sorry for the whole family. To know that there are people that would talk against a beautiful family like that makes me sick to my stomach !!!

[misslinda]

This is what I was anticipating. I speak from thoughts and opinions and leave the emotions out of it. I NEVER said raw was bad if you are reading my post correctly. Clearly as I was stating, it is possible for people to take a simple principle and complicate it. I cannot control if any of you are taking what I say so personally. This is a "potential" case that has facts that leans both ways.

For example, I raised my newphew who died of brain cancer. So I understand first hand of having witness a sick child if that is the case with the chold that passes away. My mother treated his symptoms with "natural methods," which is NOT a problem...however, in this day and age when our environment, water and food supplies are not pure, there is a likely hood of health and diseases. So my point is, my nephew's brain cancer could have been "detected" earlier but was not detected until late. On that note, if my mother decided to TREAT his condition with natural methods, by all means.

Subsequent to this post, I spoke to a friend of mine whose good friend is a retired naturopath and believes there are alot of things that the parent could have done for these children. They lived on a very stringent food intake and again it is not about RAW food. I tend to lean toward his view becaue he is a Naturopath with years of experience and education. Most information that the average person like you and I don't know.

Did you not read what the mother said (they quoted her verbatim) she held up a bottle full of wheatgrass juice and displayed it as the formula for her child.

Any other thoughts and opinons out there?

~Linda

[Joopie]

I was pretty upset when I read this article. Here's my take.

I think the whole situation is terrible.

I am sorry for the loss of Woyah and I grieve with the family.

I think the media is misleading and assumptive. (If the State Medical Examiner recorded the birth defect before the arresting of Jospeh and Lamoy, the arrests don't make much sense. Without considering all of the facts, the state and the media assumed because of the Andressohn's diet that the baby died from malnutrition.)

The state is making assumptions based on limited information. (They state that Woyah suffered from malnutrition by looking at her height and weight statistics against typical SAD children of the same age. They also did this without considering she had a birth defect. If two groups of children are eating hugely different diets, their stats will be drastically different- but sadly, the authorities don't really care about that and have no resources to compare her raw statistics with.) Why is it that they can have a show on Jerry Springer with 250 lb. 3 year olds that get fed fried chicken and root beer in their bottle, and these parents aren't apprehended at all?

I disagree with giving children enemas. I think it is invasive and inappropriate, no matter what. There are other liquid herbal cleanses that could have been considered. Children are no where near as toxic as adults are generally, and if the children had been raised raw, I don't see the possiblity that they could be that loaded with toxins (outside of environmental ones, which a healthy body is very capable of dealing with).

I don't think there is a problem with giving a baby diluted wheatgrass juice given that the overall proper nourishment is considered. I read additional articles on this family and they said that the authorities had received numerous complains that the children consumed coconut milk, almond milk, avocado juice, carrots, and other fruits and vegetables, nuts, and seeds. (All organic, too!) We don't really have enough information on this baby's whole diet to make a judgement call, but looking at the other kids, it looks like the parents were making good choices. Coconut milk, nut milks, banana milk, avocados, breast milk, etc. are all great fats for babies. I give my daughter BarleyMax in her bottle (mixed with organic formula or banana milk- we had issues with breastfeeding) and she loves it. She was raised on it in the womb and she lunges for it when she sees it. She is also on Udo's Oil Blend which takes care of the "healthy brain fat" (Omegas) that babies require. She eats fresh, raw, fruits and veggies and is on the proper vegan supplements. No one can know whether the Andressohn kids were being supplemented with Vitamins D, B, or Folic Acid (or whatever else) but one newspaper article I read was talking about a Vitamin D deficiency. The same article said that the family was often seen playing outside together-and they lived in Florida, so I'm not sure how accurate that medical assumption was. The article doesn't give any specifics about anything so we can't really make any kind of call- it's all just speculation.

I don't think there is anything wrong with homebirth with a midwife, or unassisted homebirth. I had a drugless home water birth with a midwife 7 months ago- I did end up having a hospital transport due to the baby being hung up on my pelvic bone, but I did have a natural delivery even once transported. If people are capable, have done research, and have an emergency plan, it can be a wonderful thing. Homebirth is actually safer than a hospital birth (do an internet search- there are credible studies.)

I think the family was OK for not taking the children to a doctor if there was nothing wrong with them (that they could see). Just think- they could have taken Woyah to a normal MD that missed the birth defect during infant wellness checks and that would have been fine (to society)- even parents that wake up to find their babies dead with SIDS (or whatever else) don't get punished. It's only because of this family's "extreme, non mainstream diet" and also their religion that they are being singled out (that is what the newspaper articles highlight). An ND, ER doctor, or anyone else could have missed this defect as well. We just had a family friend that suffered a hemmorage from a brain aneurysm- in his 40's. No one knew about it and he was in dire straits for a while. Sometimes things happen that no one can be blamed for. I think the family cared for their baby and kept her alive much longer than if she would have been on the SAD diet. With this said, I do think there is a need to consider how raw families can protect themselves- by either taking children to MD's or ND's for regular checkups (just refusing vaccinations and other treatments), keeping food logs, extensively researching about raw diets for children, getting their nutrition checked regularly, etc. The outcome of this case will probably determine a lot for raw families about how they need to legally protect themselves. It's sad that this has to be a consideration, but it's better to be safe than sorry, I guess.

There has been no legitmate proof against these parents to charge them with the serious level of crimes they have been charged with. (I did additional research online but who knows what information has been altered or left out. I'm just going off of what I read.) The newspaper articles I read were horribly biased and did not follow the "innocent until proven guilty" rule at all. I agree wtih Rawkinlocs about the media going against people that don't fit the mold. (It's not conspiracy theory- it's the norm these days!)

I do think there are good tests offered in the medical community, but I also think that there are many unnecessary things you have to do in order to get those tests, and also to stay in the MD's good graces after the tests are administered- they make it sound like it is mandatory to do what they say because "I am the doctor". I don't think everyone is like this by any means- there are good and bad in every profession. In some cases, I think there are very wise people in the medical profession (Dr. Lorraine Day), but many are just solely regurgitating what they learned in med school...without thinking at all for themselves. People don't know how to think from themselves anymore. They rely on the medical community, the government, and so called "experts" for their information. There are many very smart people that are authorities on their subjects- the problem is that people lack proper motivation, discernment, and basic knowledge to be able to sift through information. What is the quote- "If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for everything." There's another one that says, "Keep an open mind, but not so much that everything falls out."

We don't know the whole story. We don't know exactly what these children ate, what their lifestyle was. We don't know the parents or any specifics. We have the backbones of information. We can have opinions, but there are many factors left out. We shouldn't judge people in general, but especially not in this case where we really don't know all of the facts. Everyone is allowed their opinion on the information we do have, though.

I think we need to support this family, donate to their cause, and protest the handling of the case. This situation very well could set a big standard for families in the raw community.

This is just my opinion based on the information I have seen. I mean no offense or judgement to anyone by it.

Julie

[Sweet lips]

Julie,

Thank you for the time that you took to write this information. I too, see things in the manner that you described. I heard about this case when it first hit the news. In this Democracy, we still have all sort of persurcution. I see nothing wrong with wheatgrass juice for children - you can find the componets on the web and determine which is healthier - traditional methods or this.

When my husband first became a vegetarian some 28 years in the African American community, he was consdiered crazy literally- and questioned about his sanity. At 58 years young, people who are in their 30's imagine that he is in 40's - and his lifesyle choice was questioned.

The media is paid to make money reporting - not and many times, factual information, but opinions and thoughts, thus causing serious biased in the way people view things and tons of misinformation.

While the internet has helped, and Julie has stated their are some creditable studies available on home birthing and I have seen the beauty in this from experience. We were not told if this family had a back-up plan or naught. We must still be the best judge of how we live and what we do, and be mindful that someone will always have something to say about it.

Julie states "I disagree with giving children enemas. I think it is invasive and inappropriate, no matter what. There are other liquid herbal cleanses that could have been considered." I agree whole hearted with you on this - however, when my son Andrew was 16 months, I took him to the emergency room ( and he was a pure breastfed baby), with a very high fever. When asked when had he had his last b.m., I told them that afternoon. The nurse immediatley wanted to give him a supository. I refused because I felt it was invasive. I was critized by the nurse, who unfortnatley for her, was my employee since I paid bills to the hospital, and resulted in my filing a compliant. She ranted and rage me at me, and told my husband and I that people like us were the cause of so many of the children having diseases, arrested development, etc. etc.

The peds doctor that saw my son suggested that Andrew had received something from me through my milk and would need a day or two to relieve the fever. If I chose to, I could administer a baby aspirin, but only my choice. I was cautioned that I would probably be sick within a day or two because I was older. She sent me home to bathe him, further hydrate him and call if it continues. She did advise me to come back only if it got higher. The next day, I had the same symptoms, my husband bathed us both, and place apple cider vinegar in the bath and our fevers broker. Traditional - no, did it work yes, does my child have health issues today, no and he will be 17 tomorrow. Since that time, he has not been sick, and I believe to this day that the fever was a way for his body to rid itself of toxins that had entered. Verifiable, not really, but it happen and so it is my truth.

I have issues with the medical community as I am a product of being over medicated by my doctors's giving perscriptions to me that periodically contridicted one another. I have also seen ND and have run amuck with some of them as well. Again, I have learned to listen to my body, and attempt (I have not reached the goal) to allow its natural rythmn to heal it.

I think that this family needs a voice and support because the charges don't merit the act. Our community and we are one, is new and building, and there needs to be foundational support to continue the effort. Be mindful, this could be you.

[Rawkinlocs]

I'm highly disturbed by the insult on these children--I can't believe the mother fed the child wheatgrass juice as her formula (!!!!)

Linda, you said you leave emotions out...that isn't emotion? Wow!

You have your views and opinions and I have mine and neither is necessarily right or wrong. I don't know why the woman fed her child wheatgrass juice instead of her own breastmilk but I'd like to think/hope it was because for whatever reason, she wasn't able to breastfeed and that maybe...just maybe she thought that wheatgrass juice (as packed with nutrients as it's been said to be) was healthier for her baby than Similac or Enfamil cows milk-derived formula.

The Naturopath says there was a lot she could have done for the child..well should've, could've, would'ves can be said for a LOT of death instances so that's neither here nor there. My point is, why does a family who is vegan or vegetarian or raw-vegan have to take such a bum rap when/if something happens as opposed to folks who have 8 year old children who weigh almost as much as I do or more? Where is THEIR accountability?

But again, the child had a birth defect that was allegedly going to be the death of her (or him?) anyway, regardless of whether the child drank milk and ate rice cereal or consumed fruits, veggies, nuts and wheatgrass juice. The parents did what they thought was best just like I fed my children cow's milk, cheese, eggs, and meat..I gave them what I had been taught was healthy and good for them...I did what I thought was best. Remember they have 4 living healthy children - and I agree with you Joopie about measuring the children's health by charts that were designed around and based upon statistics of children on the SAD.

I'm not trying to argue here, I think this is a healthy dialogue to have and maybe I got too emotional before, but I'm a parent and this could have easily had been me or could be me...it's a touchy subject.

[Joopie]

Sweetlips, I applaud you for listening to your instinct about your son's fever. Sometimes it is hard to know what to do.

I reread my post and it did come off sounding a little harsh on the enemas- if a child is in a serious situation and an enema would help, go for it- but there is a difference between that and administering them on a regular basis. There could be good intent there, but it still strikes me as not being right. It seems inappropriate for the children's privacy and like it would threaten their well being (emotionally speaking).

Rawkinlocks, this is totally an emotional subject for me too. The injustice in this situation is horrible and would break any parent's heart. (DH and I have been talking since we read the article about how to protect ourselves before something like that could happen.)

It's so wierd but I wanted to post my feelings on this since the day I first read it- but didn't have time until tonight. I felt SO much better getting it out because it had really been on my mind.

I have more to say but have to go... I'll probably be back later. :)
Goodnight!

***I edited my posts for spelling issues. :D

[Sharon in Colorado]

Dr. Graham on wheatgrass juice:

http://www.vegsource.com/talk/raw/messages/14006.html

I have no doubt these parents did what they believed to be right. Afterall, don't most parents think they are giving their children the best, even when they give them prepared formulas, processed baby food in jars and fortified cereals? Except I think wheatgrass juice really isn't natural or pure for such a young baby especially. and specifically used as their sole nutrition as formula undiluted in a bottle, if it was that.

I'm sure it wasn't what caused the baby's tragic death, but I know most adults have gotten quite sick when drinking wheatgrass juice straight for the first time.

I also wonder about the enemas. However, who knows if these supplements and therapies given to the child wasn't prolonging its life?

A close friend of the family just died from cancer. They believed it was the chemo that killed him, as he went vegan and juiced constantly just after he found out and felt great before the chemo treatments. But, they were scared *not* to do the chemo.

You just don't want to leave anything out when your looking at a life and death situation and people you love. Perhaps these parents were at their wits end concerning their child and wanted to try every single thing possible to save its life...what do we really know about the situation?

[Rawmommie]

I think a lot of us who are parents will find this story offensive just because the nature of being a parent. It is hard to understand until you are one!

Many times you try your hardest to do what is best for your children and in hindsight you realize it may have not been the best thing. OR, you know you are doing the best thing but other people think you are a terrible parent for it and blame everything that happens on you. I think many of the parents on this board are going to take that into account with this story, and that is why it is such an emotional topic. We know how hard it is to do the best thing for our children, even when the world might be against us.


Karen

[Sweet lips]

Rawmommie,

You are so right - our children are only loaned to us for a shortwhile to nuture, love and teach. We should lay the foundation for them to grow and become the best that they can be, and it is difficult. My mom and dad raised me, with the best tools they have and yes, I have been very diseased, cancer, not once by twice and dealing with something now, depression, etc. Is it their fault, I think not - they are great parents and loving, but there were also some environmental things that contributed to my illnesses.

I trust that we will continue to weigh what we are learning, which way we are to go, and how we are to live with the God given inate abilities that come as we listed to spirit talk with us. This board is designed to teach us, wether we agree or disagree - take what is applicable to you and use it. Comment, whether it is emotional or not, but understand no matter what, each deserves their say.

I feel for this family deeply, after working with families that have displaced. If they had money and a big gun attorney, this may have probably gone away, if they had..., and that is what we do, we speculate because we have no idea of all the facts. I do know for a fact in Maryland that children have been taken from their parents because they parents didn't believe in shots, (recorded and dated) and the parents were vegan and the school noticed that the children who were on the free lunch program did not eat any diary or sugar - that really doesn't leave much. The children responded that "my mommy told us not to eat that stuff because it was poison"

There are some other factors as well, so they removed the children. In this case, the community came to support them, and began to provided food through a healthy eating program and thus the children were united, but it took 4 months. These children were put in foster care, and made to eat things they were not accustomed to, and they got ill with colds, asthama and excema, something they had never had. Once reunited, they began to heal physically, but the sad thing is, they have some emotional scars.

Today, they are better. Everyone thought they were doing the right thing, the parents, the school and the system. There isn't enough dialog. Monkey Boy said it again in a thread, we need to have this brought forth. Although Woody Harrelson is a raw foodist, imho, people look at him as a nut, thus he may not be the one to assist us. I am a grassroots person, so I have started in my church and there is some support. We have to live this lifestyle fully and be the song that it sings, the book that it reads, and the statement that it makes. I pray for the family and I pray for the justice system because they are some great divides. And once people are convinced that you are wrong, you are wrong. :(

[misslinda]

I believe some of you are misinterpreting with what I have said and I will clarify again, the issue is NOT raw food or wheatgrass juice. I myself for years have known that wheatgrass juice can be beneficial to you (I've known of wheatgrass for the last 15 years of my life).

As an aunt who raised her newphew who died of brain cancer, I know that feeling of "doing everyting you can." I also believe that there are alot of things I cannot do so there will be times I will need to depend on a doctor's care whether conventional or Naturopathic. Like I stated, I don't believe the parents set out to "kill" their child.

I look at it this way.....I like to juice cabbage and spinach for myself--however, I would have to be careful consuming alot fo each b/c high levels of cabbabe juice can cause goiter (thyroid condition) and spinach because of it's natural levels of oxalates (NATURAL POISINS), stones can form. Too much of anything can be harmful. I dont' say this with my own judgment by according to many many juicing, organic ,natural health sites, it is possible to overdue natural stuff.


Again, my personal opinion is response to the Andressohn event.

~Linda





************************************************** *******
Her 6-year-old brother said the Andressohns gave Woyah an enema because she was "toxic.''

All of the children were occasionally given enemas. Dr. Tom Johnson, a professor of pediatrics at the University of Miami School of Medicine, said enemas can deplete vital fluids in a child's body.

''It's not going to cause malnutrition per se, but it can cause significant life-threatening abnormalities,'' he said.

The day that Woyah died, investigators examined the other children. The two older children showed signs of rickets, a condition that leaves the bones weak and easy to break.

[misslinda]

Thankfully we're not in person having this discussion, I would have been chased out of the room.

[Joopie]

Linda, everyone is entitled to their opinion and you are welcome to yours as well!

No one has all the answers and everyone does the best they can. We can mend our mistakes and move on to stand up for the things we do know are right.

You are right Sweetlips, that once people are convinced that you are wrong, you are wrong. That's why this case is important. It could set a standard for things in the future. (Or start the ball rolling in a certain direction.) I guess we'll just see what happens!

[FEELIN'GOOD]

To me this sounds like a lot of media enhanced garble... now the kids had rickets? We know very little of what is true in this case. The kids do look amazingly beautiful and happy.