The difference between CACAO and COCOA

[Sharon in Colorado]

**disclaimer**

I know neither of these are raw - I purchased these to make the chocolate mousse cake, a transitional recipe that was posted in the Thanksgiving Photo thread. Transitional, as in not quite raw but more natural, organic or possibly less processed than most SAD stuff.

**onward**

I just purchased some Dagoba organic Cacao powder, very pricey, in a pretty can from Whole Foods; And also a super-affordable bag of bulk organic Cocoa powder from Vitamin Cottage.

I put them side-by-side (thinking Dagoba was going to be superior or something),

Looked at the powder... they looked the same.

Smelled them... they smelled the same.

Tasted them (it is an unsweetened powder, I just licked a little)... they tasted a little bit different but nothing stood out over the other.

I couldn't tell what the difference was, or if any one was better than the other. They really tasted the same.

I have a pretty discriminating palette but nothing flagged me with this comparison.

Just goes to show don't judge a book by it's cover.

In my estimation, cacao (being used in this case) is just a fancy, exotic name for cocoa. It's the same thing. I kind of knew that in the back of my mind, but I was open to the fact that maybe cacao wasn't as refined as cocoa. But they are the same.

I'm open to reading a differing opinion, but personal experience has settled my own mind at this point.

[jaurequi]

sharonincolorado, you're probably right! However, I notice a big difference between raw cacao nibs and cocoa powder -- do you?

[Sharon in Colorado]

Cacao is the term used for the tree or fruit or beans before it becomes a super-refined product.

So after it becomes a powder or confection, it is then termed as cocoa (before fat is added) or chocolate (after cocoa butter, the fat is added).

I think the Dagoba company named it cacao powder to make it sound more exotic or obscure to appeal to high-end consumers. I am going to e-mail them to see what they say.

It is still called cacao when the nibs or beans are intact.

I don't know if there are any laws or rules to this, but I just did some quick reading on it and looks like that's the terms chocolate companies seem to adhere to.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Man, that was QUICK.... Here is their answer:


Hello Sharon,

Thank you for your interest in Dagoba.
The term Cacao is the original term used,
the europeans found it easier to say cocoa so
it was adopted as the norm.
There is no processing difference, we use the term cacao
for all our chocolate.

Oracle

[RawTruth]

Just to clarify, Sharon -- you're talking about cocoa (or cacao) powder, right? Not raw? I know there's debate over whether raw cacao nibs are really raw, but that's not what I'm addressing. I'm just wondering about what you're using this cocoa powder for ... and whether the expectation is that it's raw.

Thanks!!!

[TA]

Thanks for your sleuthing, you were right...lol, I'm sure glad I didn't buy the cacao nibs. :rolleyes:

[Sharon in Colorado]

Hey Raw Truth - For a Christmas Eve gathering I am going to make that Chocolate Mousse cake from the 2005 Thanksgiving Photo thread that Truthseeker posted on page 2.

It's not the most optimal food to eat, I know, but it looks nice, and I hear it went over very well, and should make for a nice end-of-the-year kick-off.

Oh, and yes I know it isn't raw. My family will be able to use it after it runs its course in my recipe.

[exurb]

two notes -

1) you can't rely on whether it's called cocoa or cacao to tell you whether it's raw or not. it would be like saying un pomme is raw but an apple is cooked?

2) save yourself the hassle, IMO never buy the powdered stuff anyways, if you want a raw cocoa powder, buy the raw cacao nibs and grind them in your coffee grinder. anything powdered will oxidize faster and go stale anyway.

ok, three notes, raw truth, I have looked into the rawness of it, raw cacao is pretty much dried in the sun on mats after the fermentation process. I haven't been able to get a temperature on the fermentation (it does rise as it ferments), but it doesn't rise enough to kill the organisms doing the fermenting, so I don't worry about it. It's raw enough for me, and I'm someone who doesn't eat unpasteurized miso, nutritional yeast, nama shoyu and other loosey goosey raw stuff. If anyone has a reliable source for how warm it gets during fermentation, I'd be curious to know. No additional heat is added though, it's left to the elements and how long the fermentation takes depends on the climate.

[exurb]

BTW before making cocoa, the cocoa beans are roasted at approximately 250F . Raw cacao nibs or raw cocoa beans are not roasted, they are fermented then sundried.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Just for clarification, I did already know neither are raw. I was just trying to understand if there was a difference in the processing, like perhaps one was more natural than the other, or of a higher quality.

I also could use the nibs as I still have some around, but they remain grainy when ground and probably won't work in a 'mousse' recipe which requires the utmost smooth consistancy.

This is for a special occassion, not for everyday use.

[RawTruth]

. . . raw truth, I have looked into the rawness of it, raw cacao is pretty much dried in the sun on mats after the fermentation process. I haven't been able to get a temperature on the fermentation (it does rise as it ferments), but it doesn't rise enough to kill the organisms doing the fermenting, so I don't worry about it. It's raw enough for me, and I'm someone who doesn't eat unpasteurized miso, nutritional yeast, nama shoyu and other loosey goosey raw stuff. If anyone has a reliable source for how warm it gets during fermentation, I'd be curious to know. No additional heat is added though, it's left to the elements and how long the fermentation takes depends on the climate.
In a previous thread (oh, maybe 3 months ago or more), I described the results of my contacting several cacao nib distributors including Nature's First Law. I asked very specific questions as to small cacao farms vs. larger enterprises, fertizilers, and if the temperature under the leaves is checked. NONE could assure me that the temp under there remains low -- and NFL refused to tell me the temp; they said it was proprietary information.

Just the other day, Alissa said that, based on her own research and information, there is no such thing as raw cacao beans/nibs/whatever form.

I know that the members who've been on this forum for a long time (a year +) have read, and read, and re-read posts on the rawness of cacao. So, even though this may be redudant to them, there are so many newer members, I figured they might not know, especially since there's such a huge marketing campaign in the raw world surrounding cacao and its supposed benefits.

I know plenty of raw folk who choose to occasionally have cacao, regardless. I will have a dessert every once in a while myself. I'm not in any way condemning anyone who chooses to eat it -- just thought I'd add some info here.

[jaurequi]

So, Sharon in Colorado, you were merely comparing cocoa powders -- one labeling themselves, "cacao" to sound more sophisticated, I assume? :)

As far as cacao nibs, they are dried and fermented beans; as far as cocoa -- it is the cacao, further processed (roasted) and ground.
As to whether cacao nibs are raw, that would depend on the manufacturer and whether "drying" the beans involves artificial heat, and at what temperature.

If a company I contacted refused to give information I asked for, I would assume they were hiding something, and not, consequently, give them my business, whether or not what I asked for really mattered or was essential to know.

[Sharon in Colorado]

So, Sharon in Colorado, you were merely comparing cocoa powders -- one labeling themselves, "cacao" to sound more sophisticated, I assume? :)


By George I think she's got it. You've really summed it all up with as little words as possible. I admire you!

Yes, jaurequi....guess I would've saved myself a load of trouble had I written it up top....as a matter of fact... :cool:

**going up to edit now**

[RawTruth]

As to whether cacao nibs are raw, that would depend on the manufacturer and whether "drying" the beans involves artificial heat, and at what temperature. When dried with the "natural" heat of the sun -- under banana leaves -- the temperature raises far above 115 degrees or so. They are then rendered not raw despite not involving artificial heat.

[jaurequi]

When dried with the "natural" heat of the sun -- under banana leaves -- the temperature raises far above 115 degrees or so. They are then rendered not raw despite not involving artificial heat.


"...and at what temperature."
would it have helped if I added "or"?

Sharon In Colorado, what's my prize?! I've got a list!

[Sharon in Colorado]

"...and at what temperature."
would it have helped if I added "or"?

Sharon In Colorado, what's my prize?! I've got a list!

Let's see the list! Pull it out! :o :eek:

[jaurequi]

Okay, let's get to it: How about a man with brains, a funny dispostion, patient, non-sexist (that's a biggie), SECURE (probably the biggest), oh, and has a j-o-b -- how you like them apples?
Pull that outta your hat!

:p

[Sharon in Colorado]

Thank heavens I left my hat in my other closet. :p

[jaurequi]

Lol!

Dang...Well, was worth a shot! :D

[rawpriestess]

the natural fermentation temperature can easily get to 180 degrees, I read this somewhere, sorry, that I don't have the link in front of me at this moment.

But, I personally choose not to eat anything from the cacao plant.

[kmik]

there is no such thing as raw cacao beans/nibs/whatever form.

So our dessert at Au Lac wasn't raw? :eek: I didn't like the way it made me feel anyway... and this from a former chocoholic (as in I LIVED on the stuff!)

[RawFoodieMom]

-- and NFL refused to tell me the temp; they said it was proprietary information.

Wow, that's really disturbing. I can't believe they would do that. It makes the decision to ever buy something from their site awfully easy!

Thanks for sharing all the info,

Debra