Raw food diet high in fat and calories?

[Marissa]

Hello,
I'm a very health conscious vegan and I have been evermore curious about adopting a raw diet. However, upon checking out raw recipes online for bread (which I cannot live without) I have noticed many call for flax, sunflower seeds, and various nuts which are all high fat. Before anybody stops reading right now, I want to say that I know all about good fats and bad fats and I am aware that our bodies need a certain amount of good fats to function in a healthy manner. But take for example this recipe for pizza crust I found from a raw diet site:

"In a food processor add:
3 carrots chopped
2-3 cloves garlic
tbl italian seasoning
1/2 cup sundried tomato
Mix for about 30 seconds then add:
1 1/2cups soaked flax
1 cup soaked buchwheat groats
1 cup soaked sunflower seeds
Mix until smooth
Spread on teflex sheet about 3/8 to 1/2 inch thick dehydrate about 8 -10 hrs flipping half way"

1 cup of sunflower seeds and 1.5 cups of flax is a lot of calories and what seems to me like a ridiculous amount of fat. Not to mention that to make a cheese topping many raw pizza recipes call for cups of cashews. I cannot imagine how many calories and fat grams would be in one slice of pizza. Many of the raw diet recipes that weren't just salads and juices seemed high fat. How can someone who is supposed to be sticking to a diet of 1300-1500 calories a day adopt a raw diet and eat breads and yummy dishes (because honestly I'd get bored of cold raw veggies pretty fast and I'm not at all keen on most juices). Are there great tasting low-fat raw diet recipes that could mimic the things I love so much such as cereal, bread, and pasta? Advice and suggestions please!

[chilove]

Pasta yes, definitely. Bread and cereal? I don't know I've never tried. But one of my favorite recipes is raw marinara sauce and pasta made out of zucchinis. It has no overt fats, no nuts, oils, etc. and is very yummy! I started out eating a high fat raw diet and still lost tons of weight effortlessly. But I noticed that I felt better overall (especially energy wise) eating low fat so now I eat a very low fat 100% raw diet based on fruit and greens and am very satisfied. I've never felt better! :-)

[Gosia]

cereal: soaked (1/2 hour) buckwheat, then rinsed (and possibly dried), mixed with cut up apples or other fresh fruit, a sprinkle of dried fruit and coconut, and anything else you wish for.

bread: flat bread only, use flax seed (ground), tomatoes and carrots, blended, dehydrate till dry but still soft. You can fill it with cut up tomatoes, cucumber, red bell pepper, greens, a few slices of avocado, for example.


pasta: zuccinini made into pasta (using spiral slicer), cut up thin slices of tomatoes and cucumber and arrange on the pasta, plus other things that you might want (not too many, and only thin slices) such as strawberries, for example, top up with some soft tender greens (cut up too)
sauce 1: tomatoes (perhaps dehydrated a little for a denser sauce) and dates, blended
sauce 2: strawberries blended with 1-2 T of tahini (delish!)
sauce 3: oranges blended with 1-2 T of tahini (delish too!)


Also, after being some time on a raw food diet, you will discover that smoothies are much better than the best substitute for your favourite meal from the past. And, to me, nothing beats the fruit! (I am a fruit addict, you know). Give me a mango and I will smile!

Best,
Gosia.

[twinee1]

I think if you read through this site you will find most of do not have these as part of our staple diet. I do not want to speak for others but I have noticed, and same with me, that we usually opt for the greens, green drinks, smoothies, fruit and use the dense type recipes on occasion and as treats.

Many of us no longer have that bread addiction. I was never a bread fan but i loved my Oatmeal daily. Now I no longer miss it even want it at all !! If you stay raw for awhile you may find your tastes will change. My number one Fav food is an Apple...and a Green Drink ! If someone would of told me a year ago that I would actually prefer that to a cooked food I would of said no way !!

I do eat Almonds, Pumpkin seeds quite regular or I make a Hemp protein bar (in my journal ) with these items in them. I never made the dense foods that favor the nut base as i do not like cashews, seseme seeds..sunflower either..or avocado. Coconut is my least fav food in the whole world. I tried it raw, still #1 least fav food....

So all I can say is you have to simply give it a try w/o the fat based recipes.
This lifestyle does not work for everyone.

BTW the essence bread is not that high in fat but then again it does not tase like the bread you are looking to replace.

[Rawkinlocs]

I agree with Twinee in that most of us here don't eat all prepared meals. We drink smoothies, eat salads, eat whole fruit and the prepared stuff when/if we need it to keep us satiated with being raw and it works out great!

You won't expect to:

1. Eat the whole pizza...more often than not, ONE slice is all you'll want/need

2. Eat a raw pizza everyday or even raw prepared meals period

3. Eat raw prepared meals at every sitting.

Many of us here do not worry so much about counting calories...we just eat raw and MOST of feel great, have great health results, weight loss results, etc. as a result of not counting.

But, if you want low-fat recipes, this may be the book for you: http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/instantraw.html

Bear in mind that these "high fat/calorie" recipes are there for those who NEED them....those who are transitioning from a very SAD or a junky vegan/vegetarian diet and many were eating waaaay more fat (BAD fat) and calories (BAD calories) than they ever could eating raw, prepared dishes.

If you're eating a low-fat vegan diet now, then you can eat a low-fat raw diet too if that's what you feel best doing. But if you're not eating a low-fat/calorie diet currently...it's kinda unfair to accuse raw meals of being too ridiculously high in fat/calories. I mean, what's the comparison of a raw pizza crust and a cooked vegan pizza crust in calories and fat?

Most who are concerned with fat and calories don't eat prepared raw meals or they eat them very sparingly or simply substitute nuts for seeds (seeds being lower in fat than nuts) or using sprouted grains or even sprouted beans/legumes.

But you can eat the low-fat, high fresh fruit/veggie way and when you DO get bored, THEN you allow yourself the freedom to eat a raw prepared meal, knowing that you won't be eating that everyday.

You have to adjust raw to fit your lifestyle.

But check out Fred's book...he's not into high fat/calories so his recipes will be right up your alley! :D

[fiddler]

But, if you want low-fat recipes, this may be the book for you: http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/instantraw.html


Okay 'locs I just ordered this book and the accompanying bonus book. I like the idea that everything requires only a cutting board and blender and can be made in under 5 or 10 minutes :D

I hope it is a good book. Does anyone else have this book? What's your review?

Thanks,
Gil

[Rawkinlocs]

Oooh, I hope you didn't like JUST order it based on me :o

I haven't read it, but I know from reading Fred's stuff that he's about low-fat as Dr. D. Graham is but he just put this book out and it seems it'd be based on his approach to raw. I'm thinking it's probably good, though. Just don't come back and egg me if it's not! :eek:

[Sharon in Colorado]

Calories aren't really bad you know. They are needed to function. To keep fat down, the best place to get your calories is through good old fashioned fruit. A big fruit smoothie with some greens thrown in will satisfy your caloric intake, is practically fat free, and you get your minerals from the greens.

I just heard a wise man say "why would you want to mimic cooked food?"... I thought about this for a while and it does kind of make sense. If I want bread, I'd rather eat a real piece of bread. If I want pizza I think I'd want real pizza.

One thing you might want to do is really think about what you want out of the raw diet. You might make it way too difficult on yourself if you are going to be thinking about bread, pizza, etc. and how much you miss it, instead of thinking about how great you are feeling eating this new way and how wonderful and full of flavor all this pure food is.

[Rawkinlocs]

I just heard a wise man say "why would you want to mimic cooked food?"... I thought about this for a while and it does kind of make sense. If I want bread, I'd rather eat a real piece of bread. If I want pizza I think I'd want real pizza.

The same reason people mimic alcoholic drinks with non-alcoholic...vegetarians/vegans mimic meat with soy-based meat analogues...we all know that it's purely transitional for the most part and that the mind as well as tradition plays a HUGE part in how/why we eat.

It's not always necessarily a bad thing to want to start off wanting to mimic things we're familiar with Sharon. These rendentions of cooked food have helped a many of us and usually lead us to eating more simply once our bodies adjust...but you know all this!

[fiddler]

Oooh, I hope you didn't like JUST order it based on me :o
Just don't come back and egg me if it's not! :eek:

Of course, I don't have any eggs to throw... :D You're one of my favs on this forum!

I'm looking forward to the book. I'm sure glad you didn't suggest going out and buying a new house with a geo-thermal cooling system :D

[deannlynn]

Since I've been 100% raw (almost 3 weeks now) I've had a hard time keeping my blood sugar even. When I was eating more SAD, with lots of fresh fruit & veg included, it was easier to stay even and recover from devastating lows because the guidelines were obvious and documented -- carbs all calculated on packages in the health food section and in cookbooks for diabetics.

I've finally figured out that I have to have more fat that I'm used to in order to extend the carbs, especially at night.

Hoping, of course, to get healthier & healthier so that I can stick with green smoothies -- love 'em!

I agree with everyone that said it's a transitional thing. Keeping my fingers crossed that it's true for me, too.

As to the zucchini spaghetti...YUMMY! Can't believe how good it is...

[twinee1]

Since I've been 100% raw (almost 3 weeks now) I've had a hard time keeping my blood sugar even. When I was eating more SAD, with lots of fresh fruit & veg included, it was easier to stay even and recover from devastating lows because the guidelines were obvious and documented -- carbs all calculated on packages in the health food section and in cookbooks for diabetics.

I've finally figured out that I have to have more fat that I'm used to in order to extend the carbs, especially at night.

Hoping, of course, to get healthier & healthier so that I can stick with green smoothies -- love 'em!

I agree with everyone that said it's a transitional thing. Keeping my fingers crossed that it's true for me, too.

As to the zucchini spaghetti...YUMMY! Can't believe how good it is...


I do not know your time raw or the health issues you face. I only had blood sugar problems for two weeks when I went raw. I crashed 2-3 times a day (reactive hypo, not diabetic) Now I am fine !

I simply dropped out sweet dried fruits, sweet fruits and added more greens to my diet. I do not do fruit smoothies but instead a green drink with an apple.

[Sharon in Colorado]

The same reason people mimic alcoholic drinks with non-alcoholic...vegetarians/vegans mimic meat with soy-based meat analogues...we all know that it's purely transitional for the most part and that the mind as well as tradition plays a HUGE part in how/why we eat.

It's not always necessarily a bad thing to want to start off wanting to mimic things we're familiar with Sharon. These rendentions of cooked food have helped a many of us and usually lead us to eating more simply once our bodies adjust...but you know all this!

It wouldn't be a bad thing as long as it doesn't keep your addictions alive.

[RawYogini]

I have Fred's book. It's good, but I found it contradictory to his low-fat beliefs espoused in Raw Secrets. A number of his recipes call for avocado, seeds and nuts. I guess if you need variety to publish a raw food recipe book, it's hard to do it with just veggies and fruit.
I don't regret buying the book because there are some good recipes and I don't do 10-10-80, but I don't think it's a reflection of his strong stance against fats.
I just made his spinach soup though which was quite tasty, super easy and lowfat. 4 ingredients: tomato, apple cider vinegar (or lime), celery and spinach.

[Rawkinlocs]

Sharon - I see what you're saying. You have a point there!

RawYogini - I don't know how strong Fred's stance is/was on fat...but I'm thinking he realizes that certain amounts of fat are good for the body (?) Did those recipes that use avo, nuts and seeds require small or large amounts or just about the same as any other recipe that uses them?

I thought for sure his book was a completely low-fat one...but then again, he really didn't tout it as that (at least I don't think he did) but moreso that the recipes were quick, easy and didn't require a dehydrator. I guess the low-fat part was an assumption based on things I read on his site.

[littleangelbear]

I tend to eat more of the smoothies, salads, greens, fruit, etc. I don't make many prepared things because I don't have a food dehydrator yet LOL. I do plan on getting one though so when I want to eat something more dense I have that option :)

But, I did order some raw pizza crusts this past summer. I could ony eat a half of one because it was so filling by the time I added my pine nut ricotta, veggies, etc. These were pretty small crusts too--the size of a 4 x 6 index card.

The best thing about the raw diet IMHO is that you get to learn to listen to your body and eat intuitively. I have always done this since I was younger and non-raw, but I notice my body now with the raw way tells me how much to eat, what to eat and when. I think a lot of this awareness comes from my spiritual practices such as yoga and meditation, etc. Your body will tell you what it wants in regards to calories, fat, carbos, nutrients...just have to listen :)

I also like how Alissa advocates throwing away your scale and eating according to your hunger--intuitvely eating. So many of the people in the testimonials talk about how they learned to listen to their bodies.

Just trust and know that you will find that happy medium and what works for you as an individual. Enjoy this process and this enjoyment will help you to have even greater health :)

Big bear hugs,
L

[twinee1]

Thye Sunfood Cuisine is an excellent cookbook. i use it alot for salad mix ideas. There are some great soups. He does advocate lower fat but never references the 10%, but infers that any health advocate would be amiss to recommend over 25 % and 10-15% more reasonable.

There are a fair number of nut based recipes and food combo's that are out of the realm of the combining chart. All in all worth the $$

He just did a series of 15 CD's with Doug Graham (Perfect Health Series that will cost 300 or so $$$ ...so I think (again thing..) that he leans toward the 10-10-80.

[dhammala]

Rawks is right, you are not going to sit down and eat that entire pizza! I made Alissa's pizza recipe, without the tomato sauce, and it took me four-five days to finish and my partner was eating it too!

Also, you are counting calories and grams like one would do in the SAD world. In the RAW world, things don't work that way. People tend to each much less and natural fats are good for you and don't stick to the body.. in fact they have been proven (by SAD scientists, nonetheless) to help flush the bad fat out of you!

There was a post in the past couple of weeks where someone had asked about loosing weight while eating all of these rich, heavy, fatty foods.. The answers were almost all yes! I myself have lost 10lbs in 3 weeks eating a lot of raw desserts and dense foods!

[Beanie]

I tend to eat a decent amount of fat. Not trying to lose weight though so I am pushing some heavier foods. But my body will tell me "light foods please!" if I eat heavy. But honestly, if I eat Grahams way, I'm always hungry and can't think straight, get very irritable, cold, etc. Fat is satiating and it sends the stop eating signals and seems to give my brain what it needs to function the best......you will need that once you stop eating all the heavy grains and beans. Unless you want to eat 20 bananas in a sitting, lol! And healthy fats from what I've read, do not clog up your arteries, raise cholesterol etc. So I'm going with that. Yay, fat! I don't feel deprived with my raw prepared dishes and it helps so much with the cooked cravings.

[RawYogini]

Hi Rawkinlocs,
After reading your post, I wondered myself why I was left with the impression that Instant Raw Sensations was not as low-fat as I had anticipated. So I pulled it out and did a quick count of the recipes with oil, seeds, nuts, coconut, avocado, tahini, nut butters - see below. My impression that Fred advocates lowfat comes from reading his newletters/writing which leans in this direction, although he does allow that some raw overt fats are beneficial.

"Avocados, nuts and seeds are extremely high in fat content. When it comes to fat, it doesn’t matter so much its origin; fat is fat. Fat goes from the lymph system directly into the blood. Too much fat will thicken the blood, causing the red blood cells to clump together so they cannot deliver oxygen to the cells. Excess fat also blocks the action of insulin in bringing sugars to the cells, which leads to diabetes. It is better to eat small amounts of avocados, nuts and seeds, and not to eat them daily. There is more than adequate fat for the body from fruits, vegetables and leafy greens." Fred P. website

Most of his recipes are for 2 servings and just from a quick scan, I would say that a single serving of those recipes with fat, average just 1/2 avocado or 2T of nuts. So that's very reasonable. And his recipes don't mix fats - it's just one type of fat - either avo, or just nuts or just oil - except for a few recipes contributed by guest chefs. So overall, I think it's a good book because the recipes are indeed EASY with few ingredients.

RECIPES WITH OVERT FATS:
Smoothies & Shakes: 1 (nutmilk) out of 11 recipes
Fruit Soups: 1 out of 4 recipes
Green Smoothies: 0 out of 13 recipes
Raw Veg Soups: 7 with fat & 2 with optional fat out of 11 recipes
Salads: 7 out of 8
Dressings: 6 out of 7
Dips, Pates, Sides: All 6 of 6
Fancy: All 6 of 6
Desserts: All 5 of 5
2 Ingredient Recipes: 4 of 12
Best from Chefs: 18 of 28

[Sharon in Colorado]

And healthy fats from what I've read, do not clog up your arteries, raise cholesterol etc. So I'm going with that. .

Found this interesting...

http://www.drmcdougall.com/vegetable_fat.html

[Beanie]

I do not follow McDougall......his studies were based upon info popular in the 80's. If you want a refute to that, read stuff from Dr. Furhman on fats vs. grains. I don't like to argue over this and will not participate in one either. But too much fat isn't good, yes. I do think MOST of us need some, some more than others. People vary in needs, lifestyle and thrive on different diets. I don't believe there is a perfect diet for all people. Just a perfect diet for me and at this time.

What I go by and listen to is my own history, experience and blood work. I did a 10% fat diet as an athlete thinking it would help and my cholesterol went to 260!! Then because of getting sick and losing too much weight, I had to drink 6 cans of Ensure Plus a day and my cholesterol went down to 175. My lowest. Thats a lot of fat in that. And right away, my mind could think so much more clearly and I was much more relaxed/peaceful/happy. My Dr told me my body was starving for fat so my liver went crazy producing cholesterol.

Right now I weigh 75 lbs so losing weight is not something I want. I can't think clearly, concentrate and get very punchy, irritable and cold on no added fats. So like I said, I listen to my body. It knows best!! And when it tells me no more fat too, which it does, I listen to that. Maybe one day it will say low fat, but now I do need some, especially EFA's like flax, and hemp along with some nuts and seeds. I'm ADHD and my brain thrives on SOME EFA's. Plus it turns on that satiety button so I feel full and satisfied, rather than constantly hungry. And it makes food much more enjoyable.......sorry, I enjoy enjoying eating!! Food is one of lifes simple pleasures for me which I don't care to deny myself. Life is too short to not to smell the roses or eat a piece of raw pizza bread! I wouldn't go raw if it meant not enjoying food.

[Rawkinlocs]

Beanie,

I don't think Sharon posted the link to refute that good fats are needed. Towards the end, he states:

"WHAT TO DO?

The safest and healthiest way to get your EFA is in their natural packages of starches, vegetables, and fruits. Here they are found in the correct amounts in protected environments surrounded by vitamins, minerals, fibers, antioxidants, and other phytochemicals to make them balanced nutrition. If you desire higher concentrations than are present in these foods then you will want to include more nuts, seeds, and soybean products in your diet. Remember, these are high fat foods and can contribute to obesity. Research suggests that there may be a connection between frequent nut consumption and a reduced incidence of coronary heart disease (Nutr Rev 54:241, 1996)."

But I understand what you're saying. I think it's one of those things where everyone is different...some may need more fats than others for more balance and some less...in your case, you need more. I don't do well eating a lot of fat, but I don't run from it...I just let my body signal to me when I've had enough and then will resort to more fruit and greens.

So, you're doing good to listen to your body and the signals it gives off.

[Beanie]

Thanks! I didn't mean to sound like I was preaching to do a 70% fat diet, but I don't think 10% is good either, especially in the beginning. I enjoy being in between the extremes!! So I probably eat 20-50%, although I haven't calculated it........but I'm OK with that and thats what my body seems to want. It just seems like there are so many raw fat phobics that end up bingeing as a result or leave the raw diet, when if they only were less rigid, they might have succeeded!!

[Sharon in Colorado]

I do not follow McDougall......his studies were based upon info popular in the 80's.

I had to check that article after you posted that and there were over 30 references, all but 3 were from the 90's.

I don't think you have to follow anyone in particular, all the way. Just take what works for you. I have found that with everything in life. God didn't make us out of cookie-cutters.

[Beanie]

Interesting......I peaked at your journal and I don't think I eat a whole lot more fat than you, just less fruit and more greens which are low in calories. I probably get in a fatty meal about 1 tbsp oil and 1/4 cup nuts, but thats where my calories are coming from! Then I eat fruits, dried ones too and smoothies for snacks/breakfast. It really takes very little to push your fat way up if you don't eat a heavy fruit diet.......I don't worry about the numbers honestly. But I don't want to feel guilty because I'm eating a piece of raw bread or a yummy "cream" sauce. And from my own research having up to a 1/2 cup of nuts/seeds in a day isn't going to clog up my arteries. But I know people that freak out over any fat and thats unhealthy IMHO. I try to live in a gray area. I have a friend now with hypothroidism from trying Grahams approach. I think we need more than that for the majority of us!!

[Sharon in Colorado]

I just watched Dr. Graham's "Making Friends With your Food" set and one thing he does say several times is that people can't just change to 10% overnight. He's been doing this for 25 years and didn't start out eating this way and doesn't expect anyone else to. He talks about making reasonable goals (like starting out with a broader range of fat intake). Maybe that is why that low of a fat intake didn't work for you before.

I've noticed most long term raw fooders mono meal as well. It is something to work towards, and not try immediately. I've been doing this for several years and I still overeat fat IMO (never claimed I didn't).

BTW in Dr. Graham talks about people with thyroid problems getting healed using his approach. You really can't develop a disease from eating fresh fruits and vegetables, it's just not possible.

[RawTruth]

I had to check that article after you posted that and there were over 30 references, all but 3 were from the 90's.

I don't think you have to follow anyone in particular, all the way. Just take what works for you. I have found that with everything in life. God didn't make us out of cookie-cutters.Dr. McDougall keeps up to date on all current research. If you get his newsletter, you'll see that each month he links to the 5 medical/nutritional articles published in journals that he feels most important. Of course, any book published will eventually become somewhat outdated, but that doesn't mean the author hasn't stopped evolving and changing. And . . . the 90's weren't so bad!! (And not that very long ago, either
:D :D )

[Sharon in Colorado]

Raw Truth - I think he's great for folks who need to eat more sensibly but can't do raw food. I gave my Dr. McDougall book to my mother, her husband has borderline diabetes so I thought it might be helpful.

I don't know if I liked the 90's better than the 80's. Maybe the hair was better? :rolleyes:

[Beanie]

ROFL!!!!! The hair..........poof, LOL! And those painted on jeans......geez! I like the 70's better!

I have nothing against Mcdougall personally, I just found the no fat approach harmful to me. I lost my periods doing lowfat and became depressed and irritable on it. My Dr thinks that that lowered my bone density. :(

[exurb]

Marissa, I really don't follow your logic. It's sort of like taking one Krispy Kreme and going OMG, look at what's in that, then concluding that all steamed vegetables are high fat.

You can choose within the raw lifestyle to support whatever balance of nutrients you're after, just because some recipes are high in fats, doesn't mean the whole lifestyle is.

I find it much easier to eat healthfully and low cal on this diet, and get an amazing nutrient complex, including fats that are very good for you. Most people on a SAD diet don't have the room to add things like good fats in certain nuts, avocadoes, olives, etc. With raw, I find that all the veggies I eat have so few calories (but lots of nutrients) that they totally make room where I don't have to worry about eating a 600 calorie pizza dinner if I feel like it, or a rich and decadent dessert, or ice cream every single day if I feel like it, etc., and still be good on the total cals for the day, and know that everything I eat is nutrient dense, unprocessed, healthful food, which I've gotta say your conventional pizza crust doesn't hold a candle to. Flour is such BS if you ask me, it has nothing in it after it's milled and has sat around so they have to put synthetic vitamins in it. Not to mention insulin resistance/diabetes, etc...

[Sharon in Colorado]

It did make sense to me. I can see that there are good fats (raw) and bad fats (cooked) but I've also heard that most folks who transition from most any kind of a cooked diet to a raw diet do end up eating more fat. I didn't believe it myself until I punched in the numbers. By just eating a couple of handfuls of nuts, an extra avocado, or a tablespoon of oil, it is amazing how high the percentage of caloric fat will skyrocket in a daily diet.

I think when we eat cooked food, we get much more complex carbs (cooked grains) which reduces our caloric intake of fat. Then when we go to a raw food diet, missing the fullness, we often reach for fat instead of simple carbs (fruit). I tend to do it, and I know many others who do it too.

I think the question should be, how much (raw) fat is too much in a body? And how does it really affect the body? Now I'm not talking about in transition, but on a regular basis. What should be a normal range.

[rawpriestess]

The way to know if you are getting too much fat, is you will become nauseus. it is that easy really.