View Full Version : Are Steamed Veggies As Bad As Pizza?
11-16-2005, 12:43 PM
I've been lurking for about two months now, and today I finally registered as a member...yea! I thank you for all the info and support, and I look forward to offering mine, too.
My question is this: I'd like references to read about the "toxicity" of cooked food. I've read the arguments that cooked food is recognized as poison and it creates mucus, but where do these declarations come from?
So far, my info has been from Victoria Boutenko (whom I admire and see regularly, since she lives in my town.) But her experience was going out to a big fancy seafood dinner after being raw for a while, and feeling really sick afterwards. I don't doubt that would make most of us feel really sick.
But, will eating steamed veggies, vegetable soup, or cooked brown rice now and then create true toxicity? It's cold here in Oregon in the winter, and I'd like to enjoy some hot things (I know about warming things in the dehydrator, and I do that already, but warm is not the same as hot). I mean, is it really the cooking that's the problem, or is it the additives, preservatives, processing and ingredients that aren't so good for us (e.g. dairy) that's the problem?
FYI: I've been about 95% raw for two months, after doing a 19-day Master Cleanse for the first time. My transgressions have included occassional herbal tea, pastuerized fruit juice, and some ingredients I *thought* were raw but weren't (olives, nori that turned out to be toasted, etc.) I haven't felt any ill effects from these, nor have my cooked food cravings kicked in, and I *am* a recovering SAD food, alcohol and sugar addict.
Thanks for the references. I'm glad to be part of the community.
11-16-2005, 01:10 PM
The best way to find out these things is to do the experiment. Go 100% raw for about 2 weeks, then eat something cooked... make it simple ~ brown rice and/or steamed veggies. See how you feel the next day.
Next, do two weeks 100% raw and then eat your "usual" pizza. See how you feel the next day.
Check your breath, your bm's, your energy level, etc.
FANTASTIC post b/c I often wonder the same too. My only unraw item is occasional steamed veggies. I would love a clear answer too!!:) Thanks for this thread.
11-16-2005, 01:30 PM
In my experience (even before raw, with lots of food allergies) its those things with more additives and preservatives that are going to cause a problem. Of course every individual is different, but for me, the more ingredients (especially in a pizza ~ wheat, yeast, cheese, etc) are going to cause more havoc in a newly cleansed body then some simple steamed veggies or brown rice. I haven't had too many slips but the two times I had were drastically different, the first was a family party ~chicken, breads, dessert ~ the result was horrendous, it took my body a good week to just start feeling a bit better. Now the next time I slipped was going out to dinner, I had some tuna tartare (raw), crab (fresh) stuffed into a cucumber and a few oysters ~ it was a very small amount of the above, but I really had no noticeable difference in digestion, elimination (sorry about being graphic) or energy level.
Also, you can try some sprouted brown rice; I've never done it myself but I would imagine that might be warming for the winter.
11-16-2005, 01:30 PM
Welcome to the community. Everyone here is sooo helpful. I TRULY can't answer your question except to say this. I do believe that cooked food is an addiction. If I have ANY cooked food, it starts me craving something else, and then I hit the slide downward. Maybe someone can give you a more "scientific" answer. Have you read "12 steps" by VB? That really cleared up alot for me. I would love to meet her!
11-16-2005, 04:05 PM
I can only share my story, as I personally experienced it.
I was 100% RAW for 2 months, no cheats, no tastes.
I ate a baked potato, and I was fine ate 100% RAW for another week, wanted another baked potato, I thought,"it didn't make me want to eat more cooked food, or feel bad then, so why not eat one now?" Yeah right, I WAS WANTING MORE COOKED FOOD, I JUST WAS IN DENIAL.
So, I ate another baked potato, then I wanted another cooked item after a couple weeks, then another then another.
Pretty soon, I was back to about 50% raw and 50% cooked, the whole time telling myself that I could handle it, as I only wanted some cooked food, and I could stop at any time. LOL
Well, it took me several months to get back to 100% raw, and it happened all over again, so.
NOW, I don't eat any cooked, or I know what it does to me. Can't speak for anyone else, but I think do what works for you.
So, if you need to make some cooked food part of your meals to feel more secure, or you need to add in some steamed veggies, then that is certainly your choice to make.
It doesn't have to be difficult, it just has to be YOUR CHOICE.
It doesn't matter who else eats raw or cooked, because your life is YOUR CHOICE.
11-16-2005, 04:45 PM
I'm glad you asked. I believe that as far as proper nutrition, raw foodists are quite a bit in front of the rest of population, and science has got some catching up to do (and quite a bit of it!). Our (raw foodists') experience and common sense has already told us truths that science has yet to confirm through so called "scientific research" (Wow, doesn't it sound important? Hey, I am not making fun of scientists here, I am one too. I am just being honest. Scientists do not know it all, nor they do know it better!) Nevertheless, there actually exist (hip hip hooray!) published scientific research which confirms the toxicity of the cooked food diet. For example, it has been confirmed that cooked food diet produces far more toxins, associated with cancer, in our colon, than raw food diet. People on cooked food diet have a higher risk of various diseases. Or, put it in our, raw foodist's terms: people on raw food diet get cured from various diseases.
I have been interested in whatever scientifice evidence existed and have been collecting it, if I saw anything. Below, there are a few abstracts of published papers. There is more.
All the best,
J Nutr 1992 Apr;122(4):924-30
Shifting from a conventional diet to an uncooked vegan diet reversibly alters fecal hydrolytic activities in humans.
Ling WH, Hanninen O. Department of Physiology, University of Kuopio, Finland.
We studied the effect on fecal hydrolytic activities of adopting an uncooked extreme vegan diet and readopting a conventional diet. Eighteen subjects were randomly divided into test and control groups. In the test group subjects adopted the uncooked extreme vegan diet for 1 mo and then resumed a conventional diet for a second month. Controls consumed a conventional diet throughout the study. Phenol and p-cresol concentrations in serum and daily output in urine and fecal enzyme activities were measured. The activity of fecal urease significantly decreased (by 66%) as did cholylglycine hydrolase (55%), beta-glucuronidase (33%) and beta-glucosidase (40%) within 1 wk of beginning the vegan diet. The new level remained throughout the period of consuming this diet. Phenol and p-cresol concentrations in serum and daily outputs in urine significantly declined. The fecal enzyme activities returned to normal values within 2 wk of resuming the conventional diet. Concentrations of phenol and p-cresol in serum and daily output in urine had returned to normal after 1 mo of consuming the conventional diet. No changes were observed in the control group during the study. Results suggest that this uncooked extreme vegan diet causes a decrease in bacterial enzymes and certain toxic products that have been implicated in colon cancer risk.
Raw and Cooked Vegetables, Fruits, Selected Micronutrients, and Breast Cancer Risk: A Case-Control Study in Germany
Karl-Heinrich Adzersen, Patricia Jess, Klaus Wilhelm Freivogel, Ingrid Gerhard, Gunther Bastert
Nutrition and Cancer, July 2003, Vol. 46: 131-137
In 1998-2000, a case-control study of breast cancer was conducted in Heidelberg, Germany. Three hundred ten consecutively recruited cases with primary breast cancer were matched according to 10-yr age groups to 353 controls with conditions unrelated to diet or endocrine disorders. Intake of raw vegetables, total vegetables, and whole-grain products was inversely associated with breast cancer risk (highest vs. lowest quartile adjusted odds ratio [OR] 0.51, 95% confidence interval [CI] 0.31-0.84; OR = 0.62, 95% CI = 0.38-1.02; and OR = 0.57; 95% CI = 0.34-0.95, respectively). Also, high intake of some selected vitamins and minerals possessing putative DNA-stabilizing properties displayed significant inverse risk associations. Adjusted ORs were as follows: vitamin C (OR = 0.49, 95% CI = 0.2-0.88), folate equivalents (OR = 0.47, 95% CI = 0.25-0.88), â-carotene (OR = 0.46, 95% CI = 0.27-0.80), zinc (OR = 0.35, 95% CI = 0.15-0.78), and copper (OR =0.51, 95% CI = .31-1.03). In contrast, no significant association with risk was seen for an increased intake of fruits, cooked vegetables, fiber, calcium, manganese, or iron. In this population of German women, components of raw vegetables and some micronutrients appear to decrease breast cancer risk.
Effect of diet and Helicobacter pylori infection to the risk of early gastric cancer
Lee SA, Kang D, Shim KN, Choe JW, Hong WS, Choi HM
JOURNAL OF EPIDEMIOLOGY
13 (3): 162-168 MAY 2003
BACKGROUND: The association of dietary habits and Helicobacter pylori infection with early gastric cancer is still unclear.
METHODS: A hospital-based case-control study was conducted in Korea. Sixty-nine patients were newly diagnosed as having early gastric cancer at the Division of Gastroenterology, Asan Medical Center, and 199 healthy subjects who visited the Health Promotion Center of the this same hospital for annual health examinations were selected as controls. Helicobacter pylori infection status was assayed by ELISA, and information for dietary habits was obtained by interview using a semi-quantitative food frequency questionnaires. Preference for salty taste was also evaluated using a sensitive test.
RESULTS: H. pylori seropositivity was observed in 88% of cases, as compared with 75% of controls (OR=5.3, 95% confidence interval: 1.7-16.5). Adaptive salt concentration was significantly and positively associated with early gastric cancer risk (p<0.01). Decreased risks of early gastric cancer were observed in association with intakes of clear broth, raw vegetables, fruits, fruit or vegetable juices, and soybean curds. On the other hand, a high intake of salt-fermented fish and kimchi were associated with an elevated risk of early gastric cancer. Subjects with positive H. pylori infection and a high salty preference had a 10-fold higher risk of early gastric cancer than subjects without H. pylori infection and with a low salty preference (p for interaction = 0.047).
CONCLUSION: Some dietary factors and H. pylori infection are significantly associated with early gastric cancer. In particular, high-salty diets may enhance the effect of H. pylori infection in gastric carcinogenesis.
Acta Physiol Hung 1999;86(3-4):171-80
Vegan diet in physiological health promotion.
Hanninen O, Rauma AL, Kaartinen K, Nenonen M. Department of Physiology, University of Kuopio, Finland.
We have performed a number of studies including dietary interventions and cross-sectional studies on subjects consuming uncooked vegan food called living food (LF) and clarified the changes in several parameters related to health risk factors. LF consists of germinated seeds, cereals, sprouts, vegetables, fruits, berries and nuts. Some items are fermented and contain a lot of lactobacilli. The diet is rich in fiber. It has very little sodium, and it contains no cholesterol. Food items like berries and wheat grass juice are rich in antioxidants such as carotenoids and flavonoids. The subjects eating living food show increased levels of carotenoids and vitamins C and E and lowered cholesterol concentration in their sera. Urinary excretion of sodium is only a fraction of the omnivorous controls. Also urinary output of phenol and p-cresol is lowered as are several fecal enzyme levels which are considered harmful. The rheumatoid arthritis patients eating the LF diet reported amelioration of their pain, swelling of joints and morning stiffness which all got worse after finishing LF diet. The composite indices of objective measures showed also improvement of the rheumatoid arthritis patients during the intervention. The fibromyalgic subjects eating LF lost weight compared to their omnivorous controls. The results on their joint stiffness and pain (visual analogue scale), on their quality of sleep, on health assessment questionnaire and on general health questionnaire all improved. It appears that the adoption of vegan diet exemplified by the living food leads to a lessening of several health risk factors to cardiovascular diseases and cancer. Rheumatoid patients subjectively benefited from the vegan diet which was also seen in serum parameters and fecal analyses.
Fibromyalgia syndrome improved using a mostly raw vegetarian diet: An observational study.
Donaldson MS, Speight N, Loomis S. Hallelujah Acres Foundation, Shelby, NC USA. firstname.lastname@example.org
BACKGROUND: Fibromyalgia engulfs patients in a downward, reinforcing cycle of unrestorative sleep, chronic pain, fatigue, inactivity, and depression. In this study we tested whether a mostly raw vegetarian diet would significantly improve fibromyalgia symptoms.
METHODS: Thirty people participated in a dietary intervention using a mostly raw, pure vegetarian diet. The diet consisted of raw fruits, salads, carrot juice, tubers, grain products, nuts, seeds, and a dehydrated barley grass juice product. Outcomes measured were dietary intake, the fibromyalgia impact questionnaire (FIQ), SF-36 health survey, a quality of life survey (QOLS), and physical performance measurements.
RESULTS: Twenty-six subjects returned dietary surveys at 2 months; 20 subjects returned surveys at the beginning, end, and at either 2 or 4 months of intervention; 3 subjects were lost to follow-up. The mean FIQ score (n = 20) was reduced 46% from 51 to 28. Seven of the 8 SF-36 subscales, bodily pain being the exception, showed significant improvement (n = 20, all P for trend < 0.01). The QOLS, scaled from 0 to 7, rose from 3.9 initially to 4.9 at 7 months (n = 20, P for trend 0.000001). Significant improvements (n = 18, P < 0.03, paired t-test) were seen in shoulder pain at rest and after motion, abduction range of motion of shoulder, flexibility, chair test, and 6-minute walk. 19 of 30 subjects were classified as responders, with significant improvement on all measured outcomes, compared to no improvement among non-responders. At 7 months responders' SF-36 scores for all scales except bodily pain were no longer statistically different from norms for women ages 45-54.
CONCLUSION: This dietary intervention shows that many fibromyalgia subjects can be helped by a mostly raw vegetarian diet.
11-17-2005, 12:32 AM
Hey, thanks to all who responded. Revvell, I am going to experiment slowly...but not with pizza 'cause I know that would not be good! :p Just the veggies and cooked grains. We'll see.
Rawpriestess, thank you for posting your "slippery slope" experience of ending up 50/50 cooked/raw again. I can soooooo relate to the "I can handle this" addict's mentality! I will be as honest with myself as I can as I experiment.
Tvillemom, I *have* read Victoria's 12-step book; I'm just not sure I buy the theory.
Gosia, thanks for the research findings you posted.
If anyone knows of books or Internet articles that cite other research findings about the toxicity of cooked food, I'd appreciate knowing about them. Thanks! :)
Sharon in Colorado
11-17-2005, 12:37 AM
Frederic Pautenade has written in his book Raw Secrets that he believes it's better to eat a bowl of steamed veggies than a jar of almond butter.
I too have struggled with this because anything cooked usually set me off, but I hate getting into the unhealthy raw food trap.
I guess you just have to gauge yourself, would the steamed veggies set you off to eat more and worse cooked food?
IMO, steamed veggies are way better than pizza, but will it cause you to eventually eat pizza, is the real question.
11-17-2005, 01:09 AM
I have to jump in here even though I can not give you the cites. But I must say that one of the main reasons I decided to eat a raw diet is because I read that in the 1930s scientist discovered that when people ate their bodies had a physical response that was the same physical response they had when a known toxin was introduced. At first they thought this was a coincidence. They even have a name for the physical response which is a dispatch of white blood cells. A few years later they discovered that when raw food was ingested there was no dispatch of white blood cells. This lead me to two conclusions, one cooked food was dead and a burden on the body and two that the body must actually require very little considering that most of what is ingested the body immediately begans getting rid of.
Having said that I think that the higher raw one is the better the body can take care of itself as per its design. And I think, it goes without saying but I'll say it anyway, 100% raw is in total cooporation with the body.
So for me and just for me the question sounds like, "Is beer and wine as bad as hard liquor?" And only the individual can answer that.
Blessings and good cheer to you with your experiment.
11-17-2005, 01:23 AM
Actually, I think the real question is: will eating steamed veggies prevent your body from attaining a state of pure health.
Do you have Alissa's book yet? If not, I suggest that you get it and read it. Also, Rhio's book and Dr. Gabriel Cousens' first two books.
But, like Revvell says (I'm paraphrasing), since you doubt it, why don't you try it out on yourself. Except that I'd suggest going 100% raw for 30 days, not 2 weeks. Then eat something cooked and see what your body does. You can get lost in research and analyzing when the simple experience can teach you more than any so-called experts can every do.
To me, it's not the quality of the cooked food, it's the cooked food itself. I say this because I was a vegetarian for over 20 years before becoming all raw. I ate high quality, whole, largely fresh foods for much of that time. I was well-educated in nutrition and followed the guidelines of Drs. John MacDougall and Dean Ornish. I ate better than anyone I knew or met! Never ate white rice, white bread, sugar, canned or processed foods, etc. Despite that, I had occasional colds, flu, allergies, headaches -- just "normal" stuff like everyone gets, right? Also, fatigue, dry skin, tension. But, again, not unusual. After all, I was in far better shape than most people. Low blood pressure, good cholesterol. However, since I've been raw, there is no absolutely no comparison to my "good" health before. I can't emphasize how like night and day the difference is. I have energy, focus, absolutely no illnesses - minor or major -- and much much more.
But, you've said you're looking for scientific answers, so anecdotal evidence like my story and others probably doesn't matter to you. I do hope that you'll consider what Gosia said, though, since I don't believe there's much evidence out there in the SAD world. How could there be when the measurements and entire paradigm is based on cooked food (which is processed sincethe application of heat fundamentally changes it and destroys not only enzymes but most of the vitamins -- that fits my definition of processed, for sure). It's like trying to measure the effects of gravity in a weightless environment; the same rules just don't apply.
(By the way, I know you're fairly new here, so you may not know that this has been discussed and debated many times. You may be interested in looking through the old threads to read more people's experiences.)
p.s. In direct answer to your question - I don't think Victoria's experience was because she ate a "big fancy seafood dinner" rather than brown rice and steamed veggies. I think her body was so clean that it didn't have the "immunity" built up to protect it from cooked food. There are plenty of other people who have experienced the same thing. After all, this isn't a new fad or a recent lifestyle. There have been people eating all raw and living foods for at least 50 years well-documented years but actually reaching back into the 19th century. Ha!! What am I saying -- it's, of course, human's first diet and conforms to nature's first law! (You've read David Wolfe's book(s)?)
11-17-2005, 01:32 AM
Deedub, I think you're referring to " digestive leukocytosis". Here is a blurb from the book "Dying to Get Well":
* Toxic substances and cooked "byproducts" are created. The higher the
cooking temperature, the more toxins are created. Frying and grilling
are especially toxin generating. Various carcinogenic and mutagenic
substances and hordes of free radicals are generated in cooked fats and
proteins in particular.
* Heat causes the molecules involved to collide, and repeated collision
causes divalent bonding in order for new molecules, and hence a new
substance, to form. In an ordinary baked potato, there are 450 by-products
of every description. They have even been named "new chemical composites."
* All of the enzymes present in raw foods are destroyed at temperatures as
low as 118 degrees Fahrenheit. These enzymes, named "food enzymes" are
important for optimum digestion. They naturally aid in digestion and become
active as soon as eating commences. Cooking destroys 100% of these enzymes.
Eating enzyme-dead food places a burden on the pancreas and other organs and
overworks them, which eventually exhausts these organs. The digestion of
cooked food usurps valuable metabolic enzymes in order to help digest the
food. Digestion of cooked food is much more energetically demanding than the
digestion of raw food. In general, raw food is so much more easily digested
that it passes through the digestive tract in a half to a third of the time
it takes for cooked food.
* After eating a cooked meal, there is a rush of white blood cells towards
the digestive tract, leaving the rest of the body less protected by the
immune system. From the point of view of the immune system the body is being
invaded by a foreign (toxic) substance when cooked food is eaten.
* A general augmentation of white corpuscles in the blood and a change in
the relative proportions of different blood cells occurs. This phenomenon is
called "digestive leukocytosis".
11-18-2005, 06:13 PM
Thanks for the responses. Very helpful.
Deedub and Rawkinlocs, I'd heard of the effects of digestive leukocytosis, but always second-hand, with no references. I will check out the books you mentioned.
RawTruth, I appreciate your story very much, especially since you were a "clean" vegetarian for 20 years before going raw. That is, little to no "garbage" food. I know it must get wearisome when a newbie asks a question that's already been discussed. I will tell you that I researched this board and others for *hours* trying to find my answers. But there are so many threads, it's hard to pick things out of a search. For example, search on "cooked food" and see what comes up...all SORTS of stuff not related to what I was looking for. If you have hints about searching in a more fruitful way, I'm all ears.
All good things,
11-18-2005, 08:07 PM
I've been freezing since I became 100% raw! Granted, it's only been 20 days for me, but the long winter stretched out ahead, with visions of me wearing mittens and earmuffs in the house. I live in Redmond, Oregon, FYI.
Anyway, I just wanted to pass on what my acupuncturist told me. He suggested warming foods, particularly raw ginger root, in nearly everything. He also used some points to "stir the digestive fire" and the rest of my internal heating coils.
I've noticed that I don't feel so chilly since this week's needling & the addition of ginger and cayenne.
Maybe this will help you?
Oregon good wishes!
11-18-2005, 09:57 PM
If you have cold hands and feet, it could be low iron, less red and white bloodcells. A way in increase the iron uptake is best done by more vit C!
11-19-2005, 08:33 AM
I'm glad you brought this up. My feeling about this is, it's better to be 80% raw and eat a baked potato, steamed veggies or sprouted grain bread than too much fat and be 100% raw. That's my two cents on it.
Yesterday I reached 12 days raw and something just shifted. I am facing a lot of emotional strain in my relationship. I'm working it out and manifesting a situation that's more healthy for me, but in the meantime, being 100% was making me irritable (no buffer for the raw emotions, I guess), and I was eating too much fat (no energy). So last night a made a big pot of black eyed pea miso soup with vegetables and ate some hemp seed bread with it. I felt like a dry sponge soaking up the nutrients and felt calm and peaceful. You can say that was the "drug effects" of the cooked food, but I slept great last night and FINALLY woke up with enough energy to do yoga. Also, pooped great this morning (have been weirdly constipated since going raw-going but not "thoroughly") I've been waiting for the "energy blessing" of raw to come. I think that I am still not ready in my life to be 100% with a totally cooked family to take care of and a dysfunctional relationship to deal with. I'm working on it. But for now, I am going to do the Halleluiah acres approach with 85% raw and some cooked veggies for dinner, that way I can still cook for my family, just adjust it for them. ANd of course, 100% vegan. anyway, that's what's working for me. I feel AWESOME today!
steamed veggies are going to eliminate a heck of alot faster than a pizza.
the brown rice might take awhile.
personally having watched alot of rawfoodies over the last 5 years, and having done it myself, i feel like eating dehydrated raw pizza, raw icecream, raw snozzberry intake programs, and raw waffles 3 meals a day 7 days a week for months on end probably wasn't as healthy as i might have thought it was...
a simpler, 'cleaner', diet is has beenn kinder to me in the long run...
personally i'm not into it, but if a person wanted to eat steamed veggies, or fresh made (like eat it once it's finished) soup, then i think that's probably going to be easier on the system once a week or so than 6lbs. of macadamia nuts, a quart of agave nectar, half a bag of cacao nibs, 2 pounds of dates, and a peach (oh, and you only THINK i'm joking about that) everyday...
(i do enjoy herbal teas, and not raw supplements, but that's just me.)
a 100% raw vegan diet is an excellent way to health.
i'll have to agree with fred on the jar of almond butter though.
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