Better/cheaper areas to be organic/raw/vegan?

[Hanalei]

Are there any websites or maps or anything that tell you what areas are better to be organic raw and vegan? I live in the Midwest, and anything organic is fairly expensive. I'm curious what areas of the country - if any - are more affordable for this type of food? Are bigger cities cheaper than rural areas?

[delmar]

Big cities would have some advantage in variety and availability of raw foods but The cost of living is higher in just about every way. From my point of view, growing your own and foraging is where it's at with regard to raw! That is easier and less expensive in rural areas but can be done anywhere.
Here are a few threads you might want to check out...
http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?64973-Sprouting!

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?68210-Collecting-and-sprouting-dandelion-seeds&highlight=

Also there are a lot of you tube videos on wild edibles (eating the weeds) If you live where lots of green stuff grows and learn what wild stuff around you is edible and get, or in my case build a good juicer, it will change your world.

[delmar]

oops double post

[MysticTree]

I don't think foraging is THE answer. I think growing your own is THE answer - even if that means collecting wild seeds to grow wild plants to get you going. It is much more time effective to have things growing right out side the door. If you don't have your own land of your own then obviously foraging is much more crucial.

[Traceyraw]

I do some jar sprouting this is in-expensive.

[delmar]

I don't think foraging is THE answer. I think growing your own is THE answer - even if that means collecting wild seeds to grow wild plants to get you going. It is much more time effective to have things growing right out side the door. If you don't have your own land of your own then obviously foraging is much more crucial.I do agree. Unless you live in the tropics foraging is too seasonal to be the only source of food.

[Hanalei]

I live in the far northern part of the US, and the only time anything actually grows is June through September. Our soil around here is too crappy and we have a really hard time growing any vegetables, even with raised beds and good dirt added. (Not to mention the bugs...!) We were trying to grow a lot of stuff this year, and it didn't really work out, unfortunately. We're having a particular problem with cabbage worms on the collards, broccoli, cabbage, brussels sprouts, and kale. Ugh!

[k8sl8]

I posted this awhile ago: http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?67965-New-Gardening-Gadget&highlight=baarrel+garden

I believe it is an answer to a lot of gardening problems. Do some research online for an easily made version of this using storage containers and pvc pipe. Biggest expense would be your dirt. Very user friendly.

I have a barrel garden, but it is heavy and un-yieldy except if you have a yard. Do a quick search for that as well from a couple years ago.

[delmar]

I live in the far northern part of the US, and the only time anything actually grows is June through September...
Have you had a chance to glance at the sprouting thread? I am in the process of moving my main sprouting area to the basement so I have more space, but I have grown a lot of sprouts in the corner of the kitchen. If you don't have much room in the house you might want to put up a hoop house or a lean to green house.

[delmar]

We were trying to grow a lot of stuff this year, and it didn't really work out, unfortunately. We're having a particular problem with cabbage worms on the collards, broccoli, cabbage, brussels sprouts, and kale. Ugh!
I had some trouble with the stuff I tried to grow outside too. The bunnies an chipmunks devastated my garden, but I'm getting better at building barriers. I'm not sure what you can do about cabbage worms, but if nobody here has any answers try an organic gardening forum.

[Living Food]

I'm not sure what you can do about cabbage worms

It's always the soil. Healthy plants grown in healthy soil cannot get disease, and no insect will touch them. It's been proven time and again by dozens of different people.

Protecting produce from animals is much harder.

[MysticTree]

It's always the soil. Healthy plants grown in healthy soil cannot get disease, and no insect will touch them. It's been proven time and again by dozens of different people.

Protecting produce from animals is much harder.
Rubbish. They don't get diseases as easily but they do get nibbled by caterpillars etc.

[Living Food]

Rubbish. They don't get diseases as easily but they do get nibbled by caterpillars etc.

Rubbish yerself. Your soil is undoubtedly very good, but if your plants are still bothered by bugs then it could be better yet. I can guarantee that plants grown in very good soil will never be touched by bugs or disease. I'll admit that they might have a few tiny holes in them from caterpillars or the like, but so few that you'd have to search for them. And with a couple of other unique growing techniques I think that even that can be avoided.

They're also extraordinarily resistant to cold and drought, even overwatering.

[MysticTree]

It is rubbish. The better your soil the better obviously but healthy plants will get attacked by pests. We like to eat them when they are at their prime and so do the bugs. The best way to reduce pests is to have a balance of nature. So you need an environment that supports the other bugs that predate the first lot of bugs.

I just grow enough for me and the bugs.

[Living Food]

So you need an environment that supports the other bugs that predate the first lot of bugs.

That's the first step. The second step is having plants that are so healthy that bugs won't bother them. A high brix rating keeps bugs away, but that's just one part of the equation. I'll get back to you later.

[MysticTree]

That's the first step. The second step is having plants that are so healthy that bugs won't bother them. A high brix rating keeps bugs away, but that's just one part of the equation. I'll get back to you later.

Don't bother. You are wrong about this.

[Living Food]

Don't bother. You are wrong about this.

Actually I'm not, but I'm glad you said that - it would be a waste of my time trying to convince someone of something they refuse to be convinced about.

I'm sure you have good soil, and I know that you've been gardening for a lot longer then me...but don't fall into the trap of thinking that just because your soil is good, and bugs still bother your plants, that it's impossible to have plants that are healthy enough that they aren't bothered by bugs at all. I know that it's possible to do, and if you still have bug and/or disease problems then your plants aren't as healthy as they could be. A truly healthy plant is 100% immune to disease and 100% immune to insects - that's how nature weeds out the weak.

I know you compost (Do you do thermophilic compost? Better then mesophilic but inferior to the "quick return method") - what about paramagnetic rock dust? Biochar? Energized/magnetized water? Orgonite? Agnihotra ash? Some of these are very little-known and operate on principles that many would say don't work...but they do. And they create absolutely amazing plants.

And that's just a partial list of things you can do to improve your yields + plant health (and nutrition), but I won't talk any more about this because I can see it would be pointless. My reply for this was a lot longer then I had expected it to be anyway.

[MysticTree]

Just think how totally daft it is for healthy plants not to be nibbled by pests. Healthy plants are less affected by pests but they are still affected. Where I live - bear in mind that I have been here less than one growing season - we are largely on almost no soil at all. I have organic soil brought in but the plants that are least affected by slugs and bugs are those growing in the worst areas and before you suggest that I plant my crops there I should mention that I live on a site which used to be a car breakers yard and the areas I talk about are contaminated with oil, fuel and car residues.

[Living Food]

the areas I talk about are contaminated with oil, fuel and car residues.

Then those aren't the "best areas", are they? Most contaminants + toxins are not conducive to healthy plants any more then healthy humans.

I personally prefer to build up the soil wherever I may be then to just seek out the "better" soil and have to work there where there may be drawbacks - like you mentioned. I'm sure that is what you are doing too, and that's great.

I don't want to get into an argument with you, I just wanted to appraise you of something you might not have been aware of. The (wild) plants in my garden are completely disease and pest free, and I only use a handful of the methods I outlined in the post above. For months I studied many of the pioneers in the organic/biodynamic farming movement and how the healthiest traditional cultures grew their food, and the best of them also achieved plants that were almost immune to insects.

We can have our separate opinions if you prefer. But remember that the world was thought to be flat until it was discovered that it wasn't. Oftentimes people refuse to believe one thing just because they've never encountered it before.

Lots of things are possible.

[MysticTree]

Exactly. Those aren't the best areas. However those are the areas where the plants grow that aren't troubled by pests. The plants that suffer a little from pests are those which grow in the organic compost soil. They are tastier I imagine. Generally though there is little damage from pests this year although there are plenty about. They get eaten by predators faster than they can inflict significant damage on the plants.

[MysticTree]

I would be sad if my wild plants were pest free. No tortoiseshell butterflies on the nettles. No cinnebar moths on the ragwort. So many wild plants have specific bugs that live on them. If yours have none perhaps it says more about the bio-diversity of your area than the health of your weeds. I have never seen an unhealthy nettle plant btw.

[Living Food]

I have never seen an unhealthy nettle plant btw.

Interesting. I've always thought that nettles were one of the best weeds there are. I wish I could get my hands on nettle seeds for sprouting, but there are so few nettles in my area that I only harvest a tiny fraction of the plants there are, let alone their seeds.


If yours have none perhaps it says more about the bio-diversity of your area than the health of your weeds.

I still get plenty of insects attracted due to pollen, like bees and plenty of other harmless insects, but none that eat my plants. My neighbors have lots of pest problems with their plants, so I doubt it's biodiversity.


The plants that suffer a little from pests are those which grow in the organic compost soil. They are tastier I imagine.

To humans + animals they are. Interestingly, insects are unable to tolerate very healthy plants; healthy plants have complete proteins + non-reducing sugars, and little to no free nitrogen. Insects don't derive nourishment from plants with those traits.

The brix rating is a very good way to determine how healthy your plants are. An interesting fact is that plants with very high brix ratings will dessicate but will not rot. I guess bacteria don't like them very much either.

[MysticTree]

So the bugs don't eat my healthy plants because they taste good and don't eat the unhealthy plants either or are the plants growing in the contaminated soil actually healthy too? I would tend towards thinking that those who use chemicals upset the balance of nature. It's more to do with maintaining a healthy balance than a healthy soil specifically. Btw, how do the caterpillars manage to eat the very healthy nettles?

[Living Food]

Yes, the soil is not the only thing - but it is a very important part of it. Especially the relationship the plants have with micorrhyza, soil bacteria, earthworms and many other soil organisms.

I'm not sure why the bugs don't eat the plants growing in contaminated soil. But oftentimes that type of contaminant is more harmful to humans then to the plants (still not ideal for the plants, but the effects aren't as bad as they are for us), and you did say that the soil is better there. I doubt that the bugs like eating oil residue any more then we do.

Mainly it seems to be that plants that are deficient in nutrients are the most vulnerable to disease and pests, those that are grown in somewhat contaminated soil aren't quite as appealing to pests - probably because the pests don't like the contaminants either, like I said above. I'd think that they'd be more vulnerable to disease, though.

[MysticTree]

I doubt that the bugs like eating oil residue any more then we do. so it doesn't leave them much choice does it? Yucky healthy plants they can't tolerate or yucky contaminated plants. They eat what they eat depending on what they like the taste of best and what their species is programmed to eat and how many things want to eat them. Introduce chemicals and that balance is disrupted. Aphids eat healthy and unhealthy plants. Unhealthy plants succumb to pest infestation faster because they are unhealthy. Healthy plants are more likely to survive so being healthy is important in that respect. Healthy soil is definitely the aim and will result in the best outcome. But bugs eat plants. Let them. Embrace that they do because they are wonderful. I have tonnes of nettles. I should send you some seeds lol