what about honey?

[carrotlady]

Is it ok to use honey on a raw food diet. Im ready that some vegans donÂ’t use it?

carrotlady

[Kristi]

I use it. I get "really raw honey" at the co-op. I love it. Alissa's book has many recipes calling for honey.

[smasty]

I have read some conflicting info on honey. Federick Patenaude (sp?) claims in his book that honey causes accelerated tooth decay and advises rawists to stay away from it. I figure I don't eat that much of it, it's in a recipe maybe once a week for me. I use other sweeteners like agave nectar and dates to balance things out.

[suebee]

I eat honey. I have gone back and forth with this issue for years and im not convinced this is a bad vegan food.
Suebee

[smasty]

Suebee....your username is synonymous with Honey!! Do they still make SueBee honey? That's the honey I grew up with.

[suebee]

I know, i thought that was funny as i was answering this post!
I donÂ’t know, i only use raw now, but they probably do. I think thatÂ’s been around for years!
Suebee

[Kristi]

Here's a quote from Alissa's book:

RAW HONEY - Aids stomach & digestion. Is good for allergies, healing ulcers, burns, and has anti-cancer properties. Honey is an antiseptic, antiobiotic, antifunal, and antibacterial.

[marigold]

yeah i have gone back and forth with this over the years on a vegan angle and a raw angle..i use raw honey now based on the fact its an occasional thing...i am using raw bee pollen for the last month tool

[SwishTN]

bumpin it up...

[Curtis]

lol okay now Federick is really starting to get on my nerves. Does this man like anything that raw and living food people like?

[Veganmama]

From a Raw food perspective it would be ok as it is great for your body and health . But as a Vegan i don't use it for ethical reasons as vegan s don't use animal product at all.

[vegbaby]

I just want to add that for many people it's more than just the fact that bees get killed in the process or that many farmers kill off the whole lot of bees when winter comes and start up with a fresh lot in the spring...honey also attracts bears which sometimes necessitates traps or killing for the farmer to maintain a profit. That said, I live in Mongolia, so when I have agave nectar, I use it. When I don't, I use raw honey and don't beat myself up about it.

[tglasco4]

This question is interesting because of an incident that happened to me about 3 days ago. I was in a vegan/raw vegan chat room. I mentioned the banana-date-nut shake I make. Someone asked about what I put into it, I mentioned raw honey. There was a person in there, who, prior to this had been so nice and pleasant toward me. But when I mentioned raw honey, I mean the person completely went off. On a tirade that lasted about 10-15 minutes with others in the room attempting to change the subject. She felt that I was abusing bees and supporting their abuse by using honey. I had heard this sentiment before but never with so much anger attached to it. Honey is proven to be healthy. Raw honey is proven to be uncooked. As a raw vegan I choose this to consume. So if the question is about the healthiness of it, I think one can prove that to one's self by using it. I have found it to be very beneificial, but I don't use too much of it at once. It really gives energy. But I have found those who don't condone its use have other motives besides whether or not it is good for you. So if you believe you are harming bees in some way by using honey (a premise that I find ridiculous;but I stress that is my personal belief) then maybe you don't want to use it. Although I would advise that this would be your personal preference and choice and have nothing to do with what someone else may choose. If you don't subscribe to this theory, then raw honey is an excellent addition to the raw foodist's cabinet.

Peace.

Todd

[Veganmama]

I won't launch into a Tirade Todd ;) but i do believe it's harmful to the bee's it's just my personal belief and everyone is intitled to there own beliefs and i respet that but if anyone does want to know why please pm me and i can explain my reasoning :)

[tglasco4]

Now see veganmama,

I wish you were there 3 days ago. I tried to explain to the young lady that its a matter of person choice and conscience, but I felt like I was talking to someone I just committed a crime against. I respect all beliefs whether I agree with them or not. Because my belief states that everyone has that freedom to choose whatever they want to believe. I am glad you feel that way so that we can disagree without becoming disagreeable. See, I knew there was a reason I liked you :)

Peace.

Todd


I won't launch into a Tirade Todd ;) but i do believe it's harmful to the bee's it's just my personal belief and everyone is intitled to there own beliefs and i respet that but if anyone does want to know why please pm me and i can explain my reasoning :)

[Rawkinlocs]

Veganmama,

I would like to hear both sides. I personally don't use honey because I don't like smell nor taste of it...but am curious as to why most vegans don't use it in conjunction with the bees.

I don't even know exactly how honey is produced by the bees, but I have heard folks refer to honey as "bee vomit" just as I've heard some call yeast or nutritional yeast or rejuvelac "bacteria pee".

So, please share your thoughts and beliefs here as well. The original post asked if it were okay or not in the vegan diet...Todd shared his and I enjoyed reading his view on it and I'd like to read your view on it as well just for my own education because again, I don't like honey either way but would still like to know as I'm sure the original poster would also.

Please reconsider posting it here, but if not, you can PM me with it.

Thanks!

[Veganmama]

Thanks for the kind words todd :o I truely believe we are all on our own paths and information we need to follow our life works will present itself to us. That's why we don't need to force any opinion on anyone but be open to talk abou tthings if asked :)

Rawkinlocs my views are the same for most animal products, i have no problem with using animal products as natives would have done, killing only what they need and using all the animal and giving thanks to God/Gods. Milking cows but still letting calves suckle. Catching a few fish for their family but it not interfering with the life cycle of the fish. But we have long steped over the mark and have tried to dominate over nature

Same goes with the bees, it might have been alright back in the days when they only took the littl ebit left over by the bees, But now it's a whole commercial thing and the bees life plan has been disregarded

These day s the queen bees are artifically insemenated, and got rid off (Killed) after two years when normally they live for 5 or more. They take ALL of the honey that the bees have worked so hard to produce and then feed the bees on sugared water.

In my opinion this is really screwing with Mother natures natural plans and i personally want to do my bit to stop that, which is why i obstain. Those bees work hard to feed their families like we all do, they just aren't cuddley and cute ;)

If you want to read more here (http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm)

[Rawkinlocs]

That makes perfect sense Veganmama! Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. I kinda figured it was something to that effect...that the whole commercialization of producing honey was questionable.

Kinda like when I viewed the video on http://meetyourmeat.com they mentioned how egg-laying hens are very cruely treated and used only for laying eggs, their beaks seared off so they won't peck at each other because of the tight, cramped conditions, etc.

[qetta]

To me, being a vegan means to live my life in a way that caues as little harm to other beings as possible. Therefore, for the same reasons Veganmama pointed out, I choose not to use honey. (By the way, agave nectar has worked fabulously in every recipe I've tried that called for honey so far.)

However, I should also point out that if I see a big, freaky spider in my house, headed my way, I don't hesitate too long to point him out to the cats, then letting their hunting instincts take over. I'm not proud of this, but ...

All each of us can do is live our own lives as best we can in accordance with our own conscience/belief system.

Todd - People like the one who railed on you for using honey really give the rest of us vegans a bad name! I hope I never act that way towards others. I sometimes have great difficulty understanding how people can consume animals without a second thought. But I try to keep that in perspective by reminding myself that I used to eat meat - until one day it clicked that I was actually eating animals and I thought to myself, "That ain't right!" Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I hope I never come off as houlier-than-thou when talking about veganism. When people ask me questions about being vegan, or factory farm conditions, etc., I try to present the facts with a minimum of commentary on my part. Each of us has our own mind to use and conscience to live with.

-Lisa

[vegbaby]

However, I should also point out that if I see a big, freaky spider in my house, headed my way, I don't hesitate too long to point him out to the cats, then letting their hunting instincts take over. I'm not proud of this, but ...

Hey, I just got this cool bug vacuum thingy that sucks up bugs so you can take them outside and set them free. One of my writers wrote a "Green Christmas" article, and I thought it sounded like a great gift for my girls who have taken after their father and take great pleasure in killing flies all summer. I was never able to come up with a viable solution to our house being overtaken with flies (it's awful here in the summer) until now! Here's a link to the article: http://www.vegetarianbaby.com/articles/greenchristmas.shtml

[Rawkinlocs]

Vegbaby,

That little vacuum deal sounds like something I'd like to have. I remember one day this summer a bee was here in the house. I am TERRIFIED of bees as are my children simply because we're scared they may sting us.

But anyway, I swatted the bee and it landed on my counter and when I went to look at it, it was laying there, on it's side and something just came over me and I almost wanted to cry I felt so bad and so sad. I noticed that this summer, I had a greater sensitivity to killing these little creatures that God created; but at the same token, I don't like sharing my home with them either. Spiders, I normally allow to remain but the only thing that bothers me about them is when they decide to come down from the ceiling and just hang from a long web! We have ants badly around these parts in certain seasons too. I don't like ants because they try getting into my cupboards and I can't have that.

Maybe we need another thread so I don't take this any further off topic. Would you mind, Vegbaby, starting a thread in the Other topics area regarding this so we can see other vegan's ideas of controlling bugs in home without harming them as much as possible?

[flutterfly]

I guess that it has always seemed a little strange to me that some people worry about killing a bug in their homes. I guess that they never drive a car because when you drive you kill bugs all the time. They must never walk because they would step on a bug. Guess I just done see the reasoning. Life has to go on and we have to be compassionate but there is such a thing as knowing where that line is. This is just my opinion and you know the saying about opimions lol.

[Rawkinlocs]

Flutterfly,

I understand your sentiments as I felt and sometimes still do feel the same. I guess perhaps for some, there is a difference between consciously killing something and unconsciously killing something.

For me, it's a recent compassion I've begun to feel...trust me it wasn't always there because I'd kill a bug in my home in a heartbeat without a second thought about it!

But when that compassion in that kind of situation hits ya, you can't help it...you have no control over it. I mean, I've still killed them since that incident, but if there is a way to simply remove them from my home without me having to touch it/pick it up then I'd like to do that as much as possible as opposed to smasing the living daylights out of it...when possible that is! ;)

[tglasco4]

I believe in what all of you have said. But the thing I focus on is the reality that this is a sinful world, it is not heaven. All the bugs and animals have been affected. For example, we have a group of blueberry bushes where I live, hornets also live there. When the blueberries come out, you can pick and eat, but if you are not mindful of the hornets, they will attack you. In a perfect world, the hornets would do their thing and I would get some berries, but this is not that world. I have children in my home, when bees or mosquitos (which carry disease) come into my home, they are a threat to me and my family and sorry, to say, they must vacate or die. Here where I live there are all kinds of animals from black bears, to moose and deer and possum, skunk and many others. If a black bear came on our property (and they have) and attacked one of my children, that bear would die by my hand. Its sad but its the way things are on this earth. We must balance between what we need to survive and thrive and what is just sport or money making. There are lots of people that, at this time of the year (November) are all around here with their guns looking for game. Not because they are hungry, but for sport, that makes me sick. But as far as bees and honey, I have friends who own a hive, they sell honey. I haven't seen where the bees are harmed at all. I am sure there are those out there that do harm to bees, but not all do. The people that I know who sell honey, do it for the money as well as the health. But making a living is not a sin. Greed is. I am sure that there are those who could care less about the environment, or even good health. But I don't believe every honey seller is exploiting bees or harming them. But, again, that's just me.

[Rawkinlocs]

Wow, wonderful points Todd!!

See, I'm learning so much from ALL of the posts. I love when we can discuss things like this and not get all heated and things escalating.

[Wrecked Spark]

Well I must say, I see both points of view here very clearly. I think what would help the situation for me is to actually SEE the process of honey extraction... if I were satisfied within myself that harm was or wasn't being done, I could make up my mind more clearly and definitively.

Sometimes I fear that we take opinions as gospel sometimes, without taking into account the source or truth of that information. Take for example eggs (whether you eat them or not... follow me on this one!) Organizations such as PETA (who I have donated to) would be the first to point out how horribly chickens are treated. But we must remember that these are commercial operations this magazine/organization is featuring here... in order to enlighten the "masses" about corporate greed and unethical treatment of our fellow earth friends! Growing up in the country, there was an egg operation on every concession block... free-roaming chickens scattered all over the yard eating natural food and laying eggs of their own accord. So to say that eating eggs perpetuates the horrific torture and abuse of chickens is a bit of a stretch here... it's all in your perspective and how you choose the source of your information, as well as how responsible your choices are. I never felt guilty eating an egg from one of those farms, so to say I participate in the horrific torture and abuse of animals aren't quite the facts. As a side point, I rarely eat an egg anymore. :o

The point is that we must put all of this into perspective. As Todd has expressed, his friends are making an honest living without harming the bees. So if you like honey, why not support the local harvester, rather than spending on the commercial operation that cares neither about the health benefits, or the welfare of the bees?

To give you a history here, my parents met at a Humane Society meeting and my father began one of the first animal rescue programs in the city of Toronto. I fear, however, that in taking a very definitive stance on the issue of animal rights, we stonewall those who don't agree ~ even if our points are valid. The "holier than thou" attitude (I like that qetta!) does more harm than good here I think... since we're really generalizing about the whole issue. You could find a hundred analogies here... puppy mills vs. the breeder who spends countless hours interviewing new puppy owners for the perfect fit (breeding only once every year or two). Hunters for sport vs. hunters for food (taking the strain off of commercial suppliers). Egg farmers. Bee keepers, etc., etc. Heck....! I wasn't allowed anything that had a home in a cage... my Mom thought it was insanely cruel.

Just thought I'd play devil's advocate here... :)

Cheers,
Wrecked Spark

[glad_2beme]

Thank you Todd for that, as my grandfather was a beekeeper, a very kind christian loving man, and I thank you for putting what I felt into words...Thank you

[Sharon in Colorado]

I used to be a lot more into raw honey until I discovered raw agave nectar and find that not only is is sweeter, but it is free flowing and dissolves easily into liquid, unlike honey which tends to get hard and crystalize, especially here with the dryness of the Rockies. The last recipe I used quite a bit of raw honey for was my sesame honey crackers.

My beliefs are similar to Todd's. Long gone are the days that people hunted to eat to survive. Now it is for sport and quite a display & pride in one's self to stick an animal head on one's mantle and a stuffed bird on one's bookcase.

Unfortunately, my family is not vegetarian, so when I shop for eggs I get what I call 'happy eggs' from range-free, grain fed chickens. I will be making an attempt to get organic and grass fed beef as well as organic chicken when I do, for the times that I do prepare meat for them, which is a rare occasion and treat for them!

[qetta]

Hey, I just got this cool bug vacuum thingy that sucks up bugs so you can take them outside and set them free. One of my writers wrote a "Green Christmas" article, and I thought it sounded like a great gift for my girls who have taken after their father and take great pleasure in killing flies all summer. I was never able to come up with a viable solution to our house being overtaken with flies (it's awful here in the summer) until now! Here's a link to the article: http://www.vegetarianbaby.com/articles/greenchristmas.shtml

Totally gotta get me one of those! Wonderful idea. Actually, I have a total bug phobia, and it says you need to get within one inch of the bug, and I'm not sure I could do that. (Eek!) But my husband would love it. Now he takes bugs outside in his hands. (Eek again!)

[qetta]

I so get everyone's point of view on the honey thing. Rawkinlocs, you summed it up perfectly by saying that some of us choose to not consciously cause harm, all the while knowing that we do, just by our lifestyle, ultimately cause harm to some beings.

Todd - I think you also had a great point. Unfortunately, we can't always know where our food (or other products we buy) are coming from, and whether the process by which they're made causes harm or not. I mean, unless we toured every farm from which we ultimately purchased goods, we wouldn't really know if chickens were free range (there are no federal regulations on the labeling of foods as "free range"), or if children were illegally employed as labor to make our clothing, or if an apple orchard used migrant workers who were treated poorly, etc.
*Sigh* I think I need to build a cabin in the woods and just start growing all my own food and bartering for services with my neighbors. Anyone want to start a commune with me?!


:D

[Veganmama]

I thought that i would add in my opinion on Bugs and things that might potentionally cause harm. Stomp away i say. I try to put all spiders and bugs and stuff outside but as a mother my first priority is to protect my young. So if i feel it's something that might bite or sting and i can't get it out safley i feel it's natural instict to kill it. But again i will say i try and put it outside irst

[vegangelist]

i was cooked vegan for a year before recently becoming raw. that said, i was not "strict" in the sense that i ate honey...still do (and use it medicinally as well).

a couple things:

1) if we want to say that we want to do the least harm, that is great, fine. i can go along with that sentiment

2) i do think it sounds silly tho when the vegan mantra is "i don't eat honey b/c i don't eat animals/animal products" b/c bees, last i checked, are not part of the animal kingdom but are in fact, insects. So, i defer to the argument in #1 as sounding much more valid

3) all of that said, you can often get local honey wherein no bees were harmed, which is what i do when i can.

my 2 cents worth, :)
kristi

[Gosia]

I used to have honey until I learned what exactly happens to the bees. Yes, veganmama is right, the bees are beign killed and mistreated in other ways as well. I do not feel comfortable anymore about having honey in my diet. :(

But, I found a solution! I use dates! :) I simply soak them (I use dried dates, which are cheaper than fresh ones) and then use that in smoothies.

We do not step on bugs at my home. And, my 13-year-old son wrote a lovely little book (well, it's not published, it is only one copy) on how to rescue bugs, including illustrations by him (he is a very talented artist). I should scan this book, it's amazing! He also wrote another little book, it's a culinary book, which includes different meals that one can serve to ants (yes, ants!).

If a wasp/bee gets inside our house, we put it outside. And, harmless spiders are accepted members of our household (the dangerous ones are put outisde). Also, I am an excellent fly-catcher. I am able to catch a fly with my bare hands (and then, I put it outside). I like observing cocroaches (and play chasy with them sometimes). When I was 3, my mum, from the distance, observed me squating in one spot for two hours. She came closer to check me out. I was observing ants!!!

We once had pet rats (Treasure and Window). They were the cutest little animals, we just loved them!

Am I weird? ;)

[Curtis]

Yes sign me up for the raw, living foods commune. :)
I did look at a few of these last year. This one is pretty cool in Missouri
http://www.dancingrabbit.org/


[QUOTE=qetta*Sigh* I think I need to build a cabin in the woods and just start growing all my own food and bartering for services with my neighbors. Anyone want to start a commune with me?!
:D[/QUOTE]

[flutterfly]

Curtis,
Could you please tell me what living foods communes you checked out besides the dancingrabbit ? Thanks

[qetta]

Gosia - You're not weird! Just very compassionate. A great example to the rest of us, I think. :)

Curtis - Thanks for that link! Very cool. Maybe when you move (back?) to Oregon, you could start a commune there and we'll become members. Oregon is my favorite-ist place and I'd love to move there someday. My husband is from there and really loves it too, but now all our family live here (MN).

[glad_2beme]

Bee's are insects. Unlike ants and wasps, bees are vegetarians; their protein comes from pollen and their carbohydrate comes from honey which they make from nectar. Again, NOT ALL bee keepers mistreat/harm their bees. Many do it as a hobby because they love bees, and therefore they are making a living from doing what they love - bees!!! ....

[Curtis]

Sorry flutterfly if I mislead you. What I was referring to I looked into folks who had a community living in the country. Although most of them are vegetarians or vegans.
This site can give you information on it. http://www.ic.org/

[SwishTN]

How do you find the places where honey is produced without the expense of the bees. I do so love honey but rarely consume it, because of what I have heard about how they are treated....
Isn't it when they get pollen from bees that they are the most mistreated?

Thanks!
Lauri

[glad_2beme]

Hi Lauri -

I am not certain how you know for positive, without personally knowing the people, but if you have local bee farmers you can start there. Maybe even for "learning more" about the process. I know that they are people who are just in it for the business and don't care but I also know that there are those who love and admire the bees and do not take too much of the honey from them and care for and protect them too.

[Sharon in Colorado]

You could look into some organic bee keepers who just take the excess.

[Olive]

My own view is that there is no such thing as honey that isn't taken at the expense of the bees. I see no need for honey in my diet and plenty of reasons to leave it for the bees, so I do not consume it. I feel that I do not want any animal or insect farmed, no matter how tasty or healthy the product is. I believe we as humans were once capable of living in symbiotic balance with other beings and nature, but no more. Since honeybees are becoming endangered, I do think it is our responsibility to act as stewards for bees and it is in our own best interest, since they pollinate a lot of our food. I know individuals have different ways of conceptualizing the relationship between humans and other beings, but I try to see the situation from the other way around. Would I care to have much of my hard earned food forcibly removed from me? Would I want to be artifically inseminated? At the same time, I know my way of looking at this isn't the only way, but this is the place I try to live from.

[Analeah]

*sigh* if only the rest of the world would come from such a place!

[Veganmama]

I too try to live from that place :)

[lil]

I don't use honey as I don't want to use any sugars (stimulants). But I don't have a position on honey one way or another.
But I do remember something last year about concerns on the level of antibitotics used on bees. If I remember right, Health Canada had banned a lot of commercial honey due antibiotics being used. So anyways...raw or organic or whatever, I would check to see if antibiotics were used in the process.

[Analeah]

Wow I had no idea antibiotics would be used in honey. I don't think it would be used in organic? I think by definition organic doesn't allow antibiotics? Not sure about that though. Anyone else know?

[corky]

Based on your line of reasoning then Todd, i was just curious then how you differentiate your stance on honey and a stance on meat where some treat the animals good--organic farming--and others don't--factory farms. So do you see these people's way of making a living as sin or not? Just curious :p I do agree with you saying that everyone has a right to their beliefs and that we should all be respectful of others--i do use some honey and am aware of the arguments against it and perhaps will evolve to completely not use it but i don't judge those who don't use it at all as i know they have done their research and do not use it for their own good reasons.