Extreme Difficulty Giving Up Coffee!

[synchronicity1]

I have made huge success thanks to raw food at diminishing my addiction to sugar, bread, other processed food. I have even completely given up alcohol since I would suffer a hangover even with one drink. I have made huge strides! I still have left over one major addiction and that is to coffee. I cannot carry on with my day without it and the first thing I do in the morning after getting ready is to get coffee. It's such a strong addiction that I will get a headache, be irritable, groggy and depressed until I have it. I've tried to give it up on 2 occasions. The first, I was actually successful and it only took a few days to get through the withdrawal. I later foolishly picked the habit back up again! I tried a second time about a year ago and it was a HORRIBLE experience. I got through 7 days, and the absolutely splitting migraine I had was still there, and the migraine was only the tip of the iceburg. I was also extremely depressed during that week - big contrast to my normal even-keeled emotional state. It was an awful experience and after 7 days of that hell I finally gave up and started drinking coffee again. I think that caffeine is detrimental to my health since I am so addicted to it and the fact that coffee depletes your adrenals and causes your body to release the stress hormones, cortisol and adrenaline into your system. Has anyone had a similar experience like this and does anyone have any suggestions on how I can successfully quit coffee without practically having a mental breakdown for 7 plus days? Any advice and experiences you could share would be much appreciated, everyone! :-)

[Non]

ah yes caffeine. Well.. I did succesfully quit it for a while (coffee). It was hell the first week or so. Then I started drinking tea. Got out of that.

Then I tried Yerba mate. That one has a hold on me now.. and I was thinking perhaps the fact that most of it is not raw, I bought some raw yerba mate from the Mate Factor. And guayusa from Runa. I just started drinking these. It is my belief that taking these in raw form will help to ween off caffeine addiction due to the enzymes and the fact it is less acidic. I've also found the yerba quite calming at least toward the night.. guayusa can be also but drink a lot and it can definitely keep you up for the night as the Runa tribe in the Amazon can use it specifically for the purpose of staying up at night, or waking up early before sunrise. But they also say it can help sleep, and use it to attain lucid dreams and see if hunting expeditions will be successful. I suppose for that purpose they only drink it away from sleep time.. as for the ones who do stay up to protect the village well it's useful at night. Drink any 2 of these a lot and it'll keep one up regardless of it's calming effect, and eventually it'll start to make one feel not so good.

A lot of addiction has to do with the fact that heat processing makes it acidic, and denatures enzymes (as well as other stuff) which can causes more harm to the body as there would be no enzymes to deactivate the active compounds in the substance. So it leaves one weaker, and a person goes back to it to get a short term effect of energy. Since it's not raw perhaps there is also no natural "taste" for it which can tell the body when to stop.

But.. I still think due to a past addiction heat processed caffeinated beverages can still leave a person weak even when weaning off with a raw version or whatever. IMO All caffeine can do harm in excess, it's just that a heat processed beverage will make it harder to quit because it does more damage. It's just, with a raw beverage it'll be easier to quit once you get lose the taste for it naturally. That's if you believe in the theory that tastes for raw food is your body telling you what's best for it and what isn't. But a past addiction leaves you still weak, so you still might be addicted to it.. though it may help to make it easier to quit. But listen to your body first.

[Non]

Janabanana on Coffee/Caffeine

CAFFEINE PIRATE

Sociologically “caffeine,” especially coffee, may be the Borg’s drug of choice that shuts down our multidimensional awareness and turns us into capitalist robots, slaves and exploiters. By stealing from our future reserves and future health we commit an act of piracy, ie: an act of violence or depredation and also strangely enough, the theft of Intellectual Property. Coffee keeps us hard at work, striving, producing, attaining, doing and avoiding…so much so that we fail to stop and fully metabolize our chemistry and so we become entrapped in a simplistic-habitual track…and as exhaustion sets in we fail to become in-formed by the deeper, quieter, insightful layers of our Self. As such coffee is an end in itself: Coffee consumed leads to the myopia in which more coffee needs to be consumed to upkeep the consciousness in which coffee can be consumed. Coffee thus is the darling of the consumer culture, that keeps us ever hungry for a deeper experience of our Self and starving for the satisfaction of our true nature. As with all addictions, habitual use of caffeine robs us of our energy reserves, thereby over the long term it reduces the profundity, subtlety and peace of being and thereby could cause a loss of direction and throw us off our highest destiny.

In Stephen R. Braun book “Buzz: The Science and Lore of Alcohol and Caffeine,” he says caffeine heads right for the adenosine receptors in your system and, because of its similarities to adenosine, it's accepted by your body as the real thing and gets into the receptors. Adenosine plays an important role in energy transfer—as adenosine triphosphate (ATP) and adenosine diphosphate (ADP)—as well as in signal transduction as cyclic adenosine monophosphate, cAMP. Every moment that you're awake, the neurons in your brain are firing away. As those neurons fire, they produce adenosine as a byproduct, but adenosine is far from excrement.

It is also an inhibitory neurotransmitter, believed to play a role in promoting sleep and suppressing arousal, with levels increasing with each hour an organism is awake. Your nervous system is actively monitoring adenosine levels through receptors. Normally, when adenosine levels build up in our brain and spinal cord, the body nudges us toward sleep, or relaxation. Because caffeine actually binds to the Adeno-A1 receptors, but doesn't activate them—they're plugged up by caffeine. With those receptors blocked, the brain's own stimulants, dopamine and glutamate, are free to do their work…thereby interfering with one of the brain's primary brake pedals.

Caffeine also inhibits the enzyme that breaks down the messenger molecule Cyclic guanosine monophosphate (cGMP). cGMP is a common regulator of ion channel conductance, glycogenolysis, and cellular apoptosis. It also relaxes smooth muscle tissues. In blood vessels, relaxation of vascular smooth muscles lead to vasodilation and increased blood flow. cGMP is the byproduct of sugar metabolism that alerts the muscles to go. So the additional 'energy' may actually stress your body out extensively, synergizing with the already existing acute withdrawal symptoms to leave you with a terrible aftereffect.

Caffeine's half-life of approximately 8 hours leads us into a constant catch-up with our addiction. Because caffeine binds the Adenosine A1 receptor without activating it, as caffeine gets depleted from our system we go through acute withdrawal. All of that adenosine build-up causes a crash, and in the morning our body STILL hasn't metabolized all that adenosine that was waiting around in the first place. Adenosine can only get metabolized when it informs the body of its concentrations, which it cannot do because it is blocked from binding to the Adeno-A1 receptors. So you wake up in the morning, still full of exhaustion metabolites, and as soon as you get your caffeine fix you re-block the receptors, and lose the acute withdrawal symptoms. This is the caffeine train which you can’t get off without falling.

Humans become tolerant to their daily dose of caffeine. As with any drug addiction, the brain strives to return to its normal function while under "attack" from caffeine by up-regulating, or creating more adenosine receptors. But regular caffeine use has also been shown to decrease receptors for norepinephrine, a hormone akin to adrenaline, along with serotonin, a mood enhancer. At the same time, your body can see a 65 percent increase in receptors for the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA, meaning we need more and stimulants to set neurons firing. By keeping your brain from using its normal "fatigue" sensors, though, caffeine may be causing the brain to change its homeostatic regulation. Because there are adenosine receptors all over the body, including muscles, means that caffeine can make us stiff and sore, with a tender lower back, and prone to spasm.

------------------------------------------------

The main thing about coffee with regards to sovereignty is that we fail to "plug in" if we ceaselessly keep pushing ourselves with stimulants or blahing ourselves out with dense foods or alcohol. The ego-driven desire to control cannot perhaps ever be stopped while we are in coffee soaked consciousness. To "plug in" we need to cease and desist the known.
Coffee used occasionally in a shamanistic fashion would be useful for creativity, as with the other mind-altering plants. Especially if it is grown on remineralized, permacultural land say in Hawaii. The terroir of the land would infuse the coffee which particular qualities of consciousness useful for breaking through thresholds.

"abandonment of the industrial mode of existence is not self-renunciation, but a healing return." Twilight of the Machines by John Zerzan

We must also take into account just what we create of our lives on consumption of any substance. “In 1995, NASA’s Dr. David Noever and his fellow researchers at the Marshall Space Flight Center studied the webs spun by common house spiders (Araneus diadematus) dosed with several drugs, including LSD, marijuana, benzedrine, chloral hydrate and caffeine. The more toxic the drug, the less organized the web the spider created. the surprise of Dr. Noever et al, caffeine did the most damage of all the substances tested. The spider dosed with it proved incapable of creating even a single organized cell, and its web showed no sign of the “hub and spokes” pattern fundamental to conventional web design.”

[Non]

Also I have found that I can do qigong to help ease the caffeine addiction withdrawals. And help from a loved one. Though you might be too tired for meditation, or reading, try some light or moderate exercise, sunlight, do things which make you happy. Rebuild your nervous system. Eat healthy foods. Watch your blood glucose. Have your fats also if you need it. Omega 3s. Sprouts. Coconut oil.

I've been waiting to get my water filter so I can start sprouting. That'll really be the boost I need, I believe.

[synchronicity1]

Thanks for your suggestions, Non and that was a great article you included. I didn't know about the adenosine-receptors. Really explains everything that caffeine is doing to your body. One detail I forgot to mention is that when I had that bad experience withdrawing from coffee, I was actually drinking green tea because I thought that would ease the withrawal. It had no effect and I'm wondering if it had anything to do with the especially horrible and long withdrawals experience I had.

[Non]

If you need a quick boost I've found a good organic fruit will help. Particularly grapefruit or an orange. Right when you get up in the morning or just if you're feeling groggy. Don't eat too much though, if you still feel tired after that or quickly get tired soon after then it means you need more nourishing with building foods.

Also look up OIL PULLING. This may also help to detox.

[Non]

hm.. just having done some more research tonight. Glutamic acid or glutamine seems to be good for caffeine withdrawal symptoms like grogginess.

it turns out spirulina according to nutritiondata.com is just about the highest easiest natural whole food source of glutamic acid. Almonds, pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds and sesame seeds are also high in this. in that order.

[Non]

yesyesyes and uh.. peanuts. Wild jungle peanuts preferred of course. All these are the highest. Sprout/germinate or at least soak all of these seeds.
then maybe can look into some herbals that will detox, and also some herbals and/or roots, that will tonify the adrenals. I'm sure thyroid help is good too from iodine. Arginine is present there also.. good.

OBviosuly greens and green drinks also wildly beneficial.

[Non]

ah, and lastly hemp. consumed raw and sprouted as possible of course.

[Raw Angel Mom]

It took me two years to succeed. I would manage to do 6 months but if i would make an exception, i would be stock again with the addiction. I would take note of what i should do different on my next attempt to stop coffee. I learn one thing that, i couldn't make any exception ever. Fall time was a very challenging time for me to stick of not drinking coffee then i found an herbal coffee and it did the trick.

The only thing that worked for me to stop what when i saw Gary Zukav on Opraph, he suggest that it was important to feel our emotion. Well this is what i did, i would feel my emotion when i would choose to say NO to coffee. I felt the grieves and sadness then i learned that i was drinking coffee because i was burned. As soon as i did this, i started to gain power and it was easier and easier to resist.

The good news is that GREEN SMOOTHIE heals addiction. Drink green smoothie when you crave coffee, don't forget to feel your emotion so you can learn the source of it.

Be aware that many coffee shop or donuts shop use MSG in their coffee, which lead to severe addiction to this substance.

You will be free from it, keep trying and congratulate yourself for not giving up.

All the best!

[Non]

I wonder, what kind of green smoothie.

You know, I was thinking... because caffeine makes you release bile to detox from it. So fats may or may not be easily digestible if you're gallbladder is also going to be blocked.. but yet, bitter foods and greens can also stimulate bile release, as well as to help blood glucose. I'd also say that perhaps anything which regulates blood pressure also. Caffeinated beverages are also diuretics, so one shd be careful of consuming too much of that after that.

[Mary Kay]

Funny, but I gave up coffee years ago, nevertheless have a few sips here and there...Maybe once every two or three months. And funny, but today I had almost a cup. Very unusual and for me a good treat. Even though I feel I am a sinner by doing so, I don't feel so deprived.

But have more than a cup, and it's like instant addiction again, as I'll probably get a headache the next day and have to have half a cup, then 1/4 cup the next day to wean....

Anyway, even though at my peak of addiction, I only drank one cup a day, if I didn't have that cup, I'd get a headache. And even though I only drank a minimal amt, it still took me over a month to wean off it. I ended up getting some organic decaf and mixing it in, until it was straight decaf, and then I weaned from that. Even decaf is not good for you, IMO.

So my point is, I believe in weaning --in not shocking your body. And it does take lots of discipline to do this, but I was not willing to suffer through headaches.

And I am probably unusual in that I can have a partial cup rarely, but every now and then, knowing I'm sinning, but just enjoying the heck out of it. I think that most people would get the addiction going again.

Don't know if this helps, but all in all, what I'm trying to say is , I believe in weaning and not shocking your body out of it.

I also have a cup of Dandy Blend, a coffee -ike substitute made of dandelion root, chicory etc as a substitution. Although I'm believing this to be acidic? also, but again, don't mind the occasional "sin."

Best of luck. Give weaning a try.

Mary Kay

[PansyLo]

I've never had an issue with coffee. I'm a tea addict but think that herbal teas are still useful within a raw diet.

I can't give up smoking to save myself though and it's a much worse habit! So I sympathise. I'm going to switch to electronic ones, the much lesser of two evils, then try to quit.

[Raw Angel Mom]

I wonder, what kind of green smoothie.


Any leafy green. What you are looking for is the chlorophyll.

I was already free and discipline before i started green smoothies but prior to the smoothie, i would have the need to have a herbal coffee in certain time such rainy day, fall time etc.... Since doing raw food, i never had a herbal coffee. I only do green tea with i drive a long to keep me awake.

[Raw Angel Mom]

Funny, but I gave up coffee years ago, nevertheless have a few sips here and there...Maybe once every two or three months. And funny, but today I had almost a cup. Very unusual and for me a good treat. Even though I feel I am a sinner by doing so, I don't feel so deprived.


I learned a very important lesson about coffee, i had to go cold turkey period because this was too addictive to me. Now, that i understand the addiction and gaining or losing power, it makes perfect sense to resist at 100% or keep trying if fail. You gain power by saying NO. Also, never and never make an exception ever. I know better now and i accept that this isn't something that i can do ever. I recommend for you to look into Teeccino (herbal coffee) instead.

[Frugal Raw]

An easy way to wean off coffee is to make a pact with yourself that you will drink a full glass of water between cups - then when that gets easy, make it two glasses of water and so on - this will help you come off of it without having so much withdrawal. I also find that if I eat fresh fruit I don't want anything to do with coffee - too clashing in the flavor palate.

[Non]

Grapefruit would actually potentiate caffeine so, dismiss that suggestion. It has a p450 enzyme inhibitor. The p450 enzyme is what breaks caffeine down.

Try this.. take a small dose of caffeine if you still need it, a long time before going to sleep, give it 8 hrs, or the time it takes to leave your body. After which you can some calming her like camomile by the time you want to relax. Valerian might help also. One might also want to take nerve tonics to rebuild the nervous system.

[Mary Kay]

Frugal Raw, I like your suggestion! And since coffee is a diuretic......

Mary Kay

[MysticTree]

Just stop drinking coffee. It is that simple if you want it to be.

[Non]

Grapefruit would actually potentiate caffeine so, dismiss that suggestion. It has a p450 enzyme inhibitor. The p450 enzyme is what breaks caffeine down.

Try this.. take a small dose of caffeine if you still need it, a long time before going to sleep, give it 8 hrs, or the time it takes to leave your body. After which you can some calming her like camomile by the time you want to relax. Valerian might help also. One might also want to take nerve tonics to rebuild the nervous system.

this is meant for the day you want to quit. This and also take lots of water. Hopefully, when the adenosine starts to make you feel tired, after those 8 hrs, you'll want to sleep. The next day theoretically wouldn't be so bad. The point is, on the last day to stop taking it quite a while before you want to go to sleep.

I read another source say though that it could take even 20 hrs to leave the body.. if one is already dosed up on caffeine. So if that's the case then.. well.. take a nap the next day.

[Frugal Raw]

Frugal Raw, I like your suggestion! And since coffee is a diuretic......

Mary Kay

Thank you:) It's a great way to learn a better habit!

[lynch]

Yes right! you must consume also sprouted too.

[walnutty]

I'm so glad I never started! I've never had a single sip of coffee!

[Mary Kay]

Never ever? Wow Walnutty, you're a saint! LOL

I once met a man who had never tried to smoke, drink or do any drugs in his life.

Mary Kay

[synchronicity1]

Thanks, Non for all the tips - I'll certainly try spirulina as a natural source of glutamine. Mary Kay - agreed about the weaning method and that is what I feel is best for me. I'll try cutting down to one cup per day for awhile and I no doubt will feel some withdrawal symptoms even from that! Then I will cut it down to a half cup for awhile. I will do it nice and slow -- all the while drinking tons of green drinks. Frugal Raw - great tip about drinking water in between. Raw Angel Mom - thanks for the tip about the herbal coffee. I love them - especially Teeccino. Great point about the MSG they put in Dunkin Donuts and Starbucks - I never, ever touch those brands of coffee. When I used to drink DD coffee, I got horrible headaches. I am amazed that they even put MSG in coffee. I make my own organic coffee with filtered water to avoid that, but it's still not healthy for me to be drinking at all. Thanks for all your tips/suggestions/experiences everyone - very motivating and inspiring.

[Bihaku]

This sounds like I need to drink more coffee then. Coffee mixed with raw cocoa for lots of energy and stimulation, because I have become one lazy person and desire to sleep 10 to 12 hours, because it seems like sleeping 8 is not good enough.

Coffee, raw cocoa and bananas or coconut milk might be my new breakfast meal.



Janabanana on Coffee/Caffeine

CAFFEINE PIRATE

Sociologically “caffeine,” especially coffee, may be the Borg’s drug of choice that shuts down our multidimensional awareness and turns us into capitalist robots, slaves and exploiters. By stealing from our future reserves and future health we commit an act of piracy, ie: an act of violence or depredation and also strangely enough, the theft of Intellectual Property. Coffee keeps us hard at work, striving, producing, attaining, doing and avoiding…so much so that we fail to stop and fully metabolize our chemistry and so we become entrapped in a simplistic-habitual track…and as exhaustion sets in we fail to become in-formed by the deeper, quieter, insightful layers of our Self. As such coffee is an end in itself: Coffee consumed leads to the myopia in which more coffee needs to be consumed to upkeep the consciousness in which coffee can be consumed. Coffee thus is the darling of the consumer culture, that keeps us ever hungry for a deeper experience of our Self and starving for the satisfaction of our true nature. As with all addictions, habitual use of caffeine robs us of our energy reserves, thereby over the long term it reduces the profundity, subtlety and peace of being and thereby could cause a loss of direction and throw us off our highest destiny.

In Stephen R. Braun book “Buzz: The Science and Lore of Alcohol and Caffeine,” he says caffeine heads right for the adenosine receptors in your system and, because of its similarities to adenosine, it's accepted by your body as the real thing and gets into the receptors. Adenosine plays an important role in energy transfer—as adenosine triphosphate (ATP) and adenosine diphosphate (ADP)—as well as in signal transduction as cyclic adenosine monophosphate, cAMP. Every moment that you're awake, the neurons in your brain are firing away. As those neurons fire, they produce adenosine as a byproduct, but adenosine is far from excrement.

It is also an inhibitory neurotransmitter, believed to play a role in promoting sleep and suppressing arousal, with levels increasing with each hour an organism is awake. Your nervous system is actively monitoring adenosine levels through receptors. Normally, when adenosine levels build up in our brain and spinal cord, the body nudges us toward sleep, or relaxation. Because caffeine actually binds to the Adeno-A1 receptors, but doesn't activate them—they're plugged up by caffeine. With those receptors blocked, the brain's own stimulants, dopamine and glutamate, are free to do their work…thereby interfering with one of the brain's primary brake pedals.

Caffeine also inhibits the enzyme that breaks down the messenger molecule Cyclic guanosine monophosphate (cGMP). cGMP is a common regulator of ion channel conductance, glycogenolysis, and cellular apoptosis. It also relaxes smooth muscle tissues. In blood vessels, relaxation of vascular smooth muscles lead to vasodilation and increased blood flow. cGMP is the byproduct of sugar metabolism that alerts the muscles to go. So the additional 'energy' may actually stress your body out extensively, synergizing with the already existing acute withdrawal symptoms to leave you with a terrible aftereffect.

Caffeine's half-life of approximately 8 hours leads us into a constant catch-up with our addiction. Because caffeine binds the Adenosine A1 receptor without activating it, as caffeine gets depleted from our system we go through acute withdrawal. All of that adenosine build-up causes a crash, and in the morning our body STILL hasn't metabolized all that adenosine that was waiting around in the first place. Adenosine can only get metabolized when it informs the body of its concentrations, which it cannot do because it is blocked from binding to the Adeno-A1 receptors. So you wake up in the morning, still full of exhaustion metabolites, and as soon as you get your caffeine fix you re-block the receptors, and lose the acute withdrawal symptoms. This is the caffeine train which you can’t get off without falling.

Humans become tolerant to their daily dose of caffeine. As with any drug addiction, the brain strives to return to its normal function while under "attack" from caffeine by up-regulating, or creating more adenosine receptors. But regular caffeine use has also been shown to decrease receptors for norepinephrine, a hormone akin to adrenaline, along with serotonin, a mood enhancer. At the same time, your body can see a 65 percent increase in receptors for the inhibitory neurotransmitter GABA, meaning we need more and stimulants to set neurons firing. By keeping your brain from using its normal "fatigue" sensors, though, caffeine may be causing the brain to change its homeostatic regulation. Because there are adenosine receptors all over the body, including muscles, means that caffeine can make us stiff and sore, with a tender lower back, and prone to spasm.

------------------------------------------------

The main thing about coffee with regards to sovereignty is that we fail to "plug in" if we ceaselessly keep pushing ourselves with stimulants or blahing ourselves out with dense foods or alcohol. The ego-driven desire to control cannot perhaps ever be stopped while we are in coffee soaked consciousness. To "plug in" we need to cease and desist the known.
Coffee used occasionally in a shamanistic fashion would be useful for creativity, as with the other mind-altering plants. Especially if it is grown on remineralized, permacultural land say in Hawaii. The terroir of the land would infuse the coffee which particular qualities of consciousness useful for breaking through thresholds.

"abandonment of the industrial mode of existence is not self-renunciation, but a healing return." Twilight of the Machines by John Zerzan

We must also take into account just what we create of our lives on consumption of any substance. “In 1995, NASA’s Dr. David Noever and his fellow researchers at the Marshall Space Flight Center studied the webs spun by common house spiders (Araneus diadematus) dosed with several drugs, including LSD, marijuana, benzedrine, chloral hydrate and caffeine. The more toxic the drug, the less organized the web the spider created. the surprise of Dr. Noever et al, caffeine did the most damage of all the substances tested. The spider dosed with it proved incapable of creating even a single organized cell, and its web showed no sign of the “hub and spokes” pattern fundamental to conventional web design.”

[Non]

hm I dont understand. Maybe you can pay attention to another reason why you are not sleeping "8 hrs". Im not even sure that 8 hrs is natural. The new research I've seen suggests people naturally live on a 1.5 hr cycle, sleeping in multiples of 1.5 hrs. That is, 3, 4.5, 6, 7.5, 9, 10.5, 12. So, 12 hrs is probably what you need.

If you think it's too much, perhaps you could question if you're active enough, or eat well enough, or perhaps your age, your expectations to sleep 8 hrs on point(which is not as "efficient as in cycles of 1.5). Actually I believe 6 or 7.5 hrs is ideal, 9 if you're really tired, 12 hrs if really really needing all that rest. Some studies have also suggested people who sleep less than 8 hrs "live longer" and are "healthier" than those who don't. Im not sure of this but.. maybe it's due to mass consumption of caffeine (lol) or just that, sleeping anymore than the allotted time makes one more tired and thus having it's health consequences.

Who knows really. I like to aim for 6 hrs and maybe take a 20-30 min nap during the day or if not 7.5 hrs.

btw it's my third day with no caffeine (yerba mate, guayusa and cacao)!

Sigh.. I miss it moreso due to the anxiety relief and company it gave me. I mean sure I was tired but now it's like more of a depression..

[Bihaku]

I eat well (as in healthy) and is active enough. My job causes me to stand on my feet and walk around 6 to 8 hours straight. And I only get 30 minutes at work to eat, not an hour, so I can't relax my body on my job never. Matter of fact, I am too active. I need 8 hours for my body to feel rested from the activities of my job. But sometimes I am just too tired mentally and physically. I need the caffeine to get me going as of late. And I am not much of a coffee drinker, but it starting to give me the energy I need.

[Tracy Ann]

Well drinking natural tea can be the best way to quit coffee. I was once addicted in drinking coffee but after hearing different speculations that coffee is not good in health my friend suggests me to have some green tea and fruit juices that are rich in anti-oxidants. After how many weeks, I stop to drink it and stay in natural drinks they have given me.

[MysticTree]

I eat well (as in healthy) and is active enough. My job causes me to stand on my feet and walk around 6 to 8 hours straight. And I only get 30 minutes at work to eat, not an hour, so I can't relax my body on my job never. Matter of fact, I am too active. I need 8 hours for my body to feel rested from the activities of my job. But sometimes I am just too tired mentally and physically. I need the caffeine to get me going as of late. And I am not much of a coffee drinker, but it starting to give me the energy I need.

You could substitute a green juice for the coffee and I reckon it would give you more of a wake up than the coffee does.

[Non]

yea. well that's just the industry really. Maybe what we need is more, and unnatural lifestyles are forcing us. Whatever. Or maybe the tchnology like, computers, EMFs, etc. It's the Information Age. It's hard to keep up sometimes. So much intellectualism.

[Non]

yea. well that's just the industry really. Maybe what we need is more, and unnatural lifestyles are forcing us. Whatever. Or maybe the technology like, computers, EMFs, etc. It's the Information Age. It's hard to keep up sometimes. So much intellectualism.

Let me clarify:

I meant, it's just the industry which forces us to work the regular 9-5 shift with only a half hour break. Before this people regularly took a nap in the middle of the day. At least in other countries. Now we have the technologies around us bombarding us with EMFs, the tap water is no good, heck even the air is no good. This is the information age too we are bombarded with so much information and it can be hard to keep up with right? So much intellectualism, or if not Pseudo-intellectualism.

[fastfreedom]

I wonder if conditioning your mind to something uncomfortable with cravings for an addiction would make it easier to quit the addiction?? My step-dad, when I was young, taught me a trick to help break a bad habit, he said wear a rubberband on your wrist and everytime you catch yourself performing the habit you wish to break then snap yourself with the band. I wonder if that would help break addictions? Everytime you find yourself wanting to pour a cup, snap yourself. c'mon give it a try.....LOL.....I wanna know if it works.

[Bihaku]

Done that. Don't work. Not the same thing.


You could substitute a green juice for the coffee and I reckon it would give you more of a wake up than the coffee does.

[MysticTree]

There was a study done that showed that coffee wasn't the upper it's reputed to be. Give it up if you want to but if you don't want to then of course you'll find it difficult.

[Bihaku]

I don't work a technological job. I work in a high volume service industry where hoards of customers are constantly coming at me at all times. A one hour break could possibly derail customer service to a certain degree. And I don't work a 9 to 5 job. I work an evening/night shift job...the 3rd shift.

I like the information age. Matter of fact, I am a TransHumanist (we want more technology to be part of our lives, not less...we love and obsess about technology), so we will oppose each other's ideology. As you got a thing against Capitalism...I personally can care less about Capitalism.


Let me clarify:

I meant, it's just the industry which forces us to work the regular 9-5 shift with only a half hour break. Before this people regularly took a nap in the middle of the day. At least in other countries. Now we have the technologies around us bombarding us with EMFs, the tap water is no good, heck even the air is no good. This is the information age too we are bombarded with so much information and it can be hard to keep up with right? So much intellectualism, or if not Pseudo-intellectualism.

[Non]

OK. I see maybe playing a devil's advocate kind of role? If not then nvm.

I see what you're saying and I agree. I am actually for the same but, there is a line that has to be draw where it can be detrimental to ones being and the Earth. This "information age" isn't far from perfect. Surely in an ideal world, the "information age" would be just fine. All technologies would be useful without causing harm. Though things in our water, EMF pollution, etc. that's a different story. And yes, perhaps the human being does have some catching up to do with regards "information overload". I'm not really against intellectualism just.. pseudo intellectualism if you get me. It's not materialism that gets me but people in high places with specific intentions to harm humanity and the earth that I'm talking about.

[phak-i-tu]

yea. well that's just the industry really. Maybe what we need is more, and unnatural lifestyles are forcing us. Whatever. Or maybe the tchnology like, computers, EMFs, etc. It's the Information Age. It's hard to keep up sometimes. So much intellectualism.
That's just what the early Puritans said about 'intellectualism:' they thought education was the devil's work. Britain wisely threw them out after their Civil War but America has been infested with them ever since. Do you want visitors to think raw food vegans are a lot of nuts? So maybe you should put your money where your mouth is and stop using this 'information technology' immediately? I'm certain it was thought up by rabid coffee-drinkers and smokers too; you know, the kind of people who kept 'odd hours' and just passed out when they were too tired to keep going - and did not conform to other people's ideas of what was normal and acceptable. You remind me of my brother, about 30 years ago, standing in the kitchen eating a large bowl of stew that I had made, lecturing the family on the superior virtues of breatharianism. If it's hard to keep up, isn't a raw food lifestyle supposed to rejuvenate your brain? Now go do something equally challenging: sticking toothpaste back into the tube.

And since when is coffee-drinking a 'vice?' The only people I ever saw in this country at least, who thought that way have far worse vices in its place.

[Non]

Im not here to argue. im just speaking of balance that's all. I'm not against materialism, nor intellectualism. Even coffee. Its just there has to be a balance right?

Right, and you know even ancients could have had far more evolved or superior technology than what we see now. It's just that again perhaps some high people in specific places keep superior technology either hidden or very pricey. So yes, computers are useful but the wifi do have harmful EMFs, the monitors the same. The tap water is pretty harmful. So that's why they have "grounding technologies" but the regular person might not know about them.

[Non]

As for coffee being a vice, I was referring moreso to my abuse of coffee or caffeinated beverages.

[phak-i-tu]

Im not here to argue. im just speaking of balance that's all. I'm not against materialism, nor intellectualism. Even coffee. Its just there has to be a balance right?

Right, and you know even ancients could have had far more evolved or superior technology than what we see now. It's just that again perhaps some high people in specific places keep superior technology either hidden or very pricey. So yes, computers are useful but the wifi do have harmful EMFs, the monitors the same. The tap water is pretty harmful. So that's why they have "grounding technologies" but the regular person might not know about them.
Now, this is interesting. I saw both your posts and will take on both here. Grounding technologies? Tell us about those! Give us a link or two. I've heard of hidden technologies, of course, (since I'm a regular at GLP, ATP, infowars, unhived mind & places like that...lol) and always wondered how hidden they could be if so many people are talking about them online. Wifi does exact a price on our health, with a lot of daily exposure, but how does it relate to cups of coffee? If it does, explain that in simple terms.

When you make dogmatic pronouncements, be prepared to defend them by argument. What might be 'abuse' to you is unlikely to be so in another's life. We are not all alike. Caffeinated beverages, unless they got caffeinated by Nature, as in coffees and teas, are a waste of time anyway. When Nature puts something together, one part of the whole is just as important as another. Isolating one element and trying to eat that instead is a mistake that anyone gifted with the ability to see the obvious can understand well enough - and that goes for prescription drugs too. If you want a good dose of caffeine, drink a green coffee bean, if you can find them. For the rest of us, a less-dosed nice black espresso will do. The darker you roast that bean, the more caffeine you roast out of it. From what I've seen, the most vigorous anti-coffee campaigners tend to be people who never had and couldn't prepare a decent cup of the stuff themselves. Like everything else in Nature, it has its uses. People who'd get 'addicted' are the same kind of people who always have to be addicted to something - in short, it's not the coffee; it's a personality disorder.

[Non]

Ah, another regular at GLP too. I was too for a while.

How does it relate to caffeine? I was not really relating it with caffeine at all. I was merely giving ideas as to why perhaps Bihaku could require more than 8 hrs of sleep. Perhaps I was confused as to where he was coming from. If he believes coffee is what will help him to stay up during those hard work hours then you know that's fine with me. Anyways to each his own right? I probably would do the same but only just because it's the type of culture I live in which might require the use of stimulants to be more productive. But I would keep in mind some of the costs of having that cup of coffee. Perhaps it's not a "right and wrong" thing but moreso "does it fit in with my lifestyle" kind of thing?

As you can see in that article by Janabanana she says it may alter the homeostatic processes of the body to compensate for the use of the stimulants. One can see this as either a good or bad thing, but one thing is for sure -- it can be catabolic, as in it depletes stored nutrients. In TCM that would translate as "consuming essence which is stored by the kidneys". Caffeine does up the amount of adrenaline one produces and ups the blood sugar. What that means is that also for these people they need to probably eat extra healthy, and consume more nutrients to make up for the extra consumption. Also the body compensates for regular use of caffeine by deactivating neurochemical receptors. Such that, and I'm sure, if one had to quit cold turkey one would feel blah afterwards until the body can then first burn up all the adenosine build up, and also rebuild the neurochemical receptors required to feel ok again in homeostasis. Rebuild the adrenals. One may then crave that bevereage again, or "miss it". That sounds like a symptom of "addiction". It can be considered a long term effect/cost for a temporary gain.

There are cultures in South America that use caffeine, as well as other stimulants like Coca. For what purposes? Well Im sure there are many reasons but ultimately it's just their lifestyle. It's possible if they were deprived of such stimulants it could cause problems for a while. Is that "bad" or "good" really depends on the way a person sees it. I know that when i stopped using caffeine beverages I felt blah. Even moreso when after I abused it. What is considered abuse depends on how much it can damage a person but really.. I would see anything that encourages cravings can cause problems, might be considered an abuse. How much that really is? I'm not sure.

And as for "chemical extract of caffeine" I would see anything other than a raw caffeinated beverage gotten from a whole food as doing just that.. toasting does deactivate enzymes, etc. The more you cook something also the less "whole" it is, or at least this raw foods movement is redefining now what is considered a "whole" food. Cooking, roasting, any heat processing denatures and makes them somewhat biological inactive, so that would make it "less whole". But what's even worse is that it's hard to sprout coffee beans so, all that roasted coffee beverages probably come with antinutrients and such.

That's why I like yerba mate, and guayusa, and even cacao beans if they can be sprouted.

[Non]

Perhaps Im just being misunderstood, I may have to work on my english lol.

[Non]

btw what is ATP? Did you mean ATS?

[Non]

Now, this is interesting. I saw both your posts and will take on both here. Grounding technologies? Tell us about those! Give us a link or two. I've heard of hidden technologies, of course, (since I'm a regular at GLP, ATP, infowars, unhived mind & places like that...lol) and always wondered how hidden they could be if so many people are talking about them online. Wifi does exact a price on our health, with a lot of daily exposure, but how does it relate to cups of coffee? If it does, explain that in simple terms.

When you make dogmatic pronouncements, be prepared to defend them by argument. What might be 'abuse' to you is unlikely to be so in another's life. We are not all alike. Caffeinated beverages, unless they got caffeinated by Nature, as in coffees and teas, are a waste of time anyway. When Nature puts something together, one part of the whole is just as important as another. Isolating one element and trying to eat that instead is a mistake that anyone gifted with the ability to see the obvious can understand well enough - and that goes for prescription drugs too. If you want a good dose of caffeine, drink a green coffee bean, if you can find them. For the rest of us, a less-dosed nice black espresso will do. The darker you roast that bean, the more caffeine you roast out of it. From what I've seen, the most vigorous anti-coffee campaigners tend to be people who never had and couldn't prepare a decent cup of the stuff themselves. Like everything else in Nature, it has its uses. People who'd get 'addicted' are the same kind of people who always have to be addicted to something - in short, it's not the coffee; it's a personality disorder.

I see what you mean, I didn't mean to come off as dogmatic. Maybe it's just a language barrier. I am speaking from my own experience and that's all I can refer to really.

As for EMF protection just search that in google and one can find these products. Though most I bet are not empirically proven and just because it's on the internet doesn't mean people will know about it.

I didn't know one could drink green coffee, I always thought coffee beans were hard to sprout, and also to grind so.. how a person could do that? I don't know. I know Arabic coffee is made with a Super light coffee roast, lighter than the normal "light roast". It's like, barely roasted if not even like, the "lightly steamed" version of coffee lol.

[delmar]

That's just what the early Puritans said about 'intellectualism:' they thought education was the devil's work. Britain wisely threw them out after their Civil War but America has been infested with them ever since. Do you want visitors to think raw food vegans are a lot of nuts? So maybe you should put your money where your mouth is and stop using this 'information technology' immediately? I'm certain it was thought up by rabid coffee-drinkers and smokers too; you know, the kind of people who kept 'odd hours' and just passed out when they were too tired to keep going - and did not conform to other people's ideas of what was normal and acceptable. You remind me of my brother, about 30 years ago, standing in the kitchen eating a large bowl of stew that I had made, lecturing the family on the superior virtues of breatharianism. If it's hard to keep up, isn't a raw food lifestyle supposed to rejuvenate your brain? Now go do something equally challenging: sticking toothpaste back into the tube.

And since when is coffee-drinking a 'vice?' The only people I ever saw in this country at least, who thought that way have far worse vices in its place.Well unless there are people who drink coffee raw, I don't see it as too controversial to call it a vice on a raw food forum.

[MysticTree]

I agree there are addictive personalities but there are also addictive substances. I can take or leave alcohol. I can take or leave nicotine but caffeine is, for me, an addiction. One I have kicked. My bf drinks coffee but is high raw. He already notices that coffee gives him a buzz that is almost unpleasant. He has cut right back. He is addicted to alcohol. In recovery and if coffee keeps him off the booze then ok. Coffee is the lesser vice but I do see coffee as a vice; decaf even more so!

[phak-i-tu]

I see what you mean, I didn't mean to come off as dogmatic. Maybe it's just a language barrier. I am speaking from my own experience and that's all I can refer to really.

As for EMF protection just search that in google and one can find these products. Though most I bet are not empirically proven and just because it's on the internet doesn't mean people will know about it.

I didn't know one could drink green coffee, I always thought coffee beans were hard to sprout, and also to grind so.. how a person could do that? I don't know. I know Arabic coffee is made with a Super light coffee roast, lighter than the normal "light roast". It's like, barely roasted if not even like, the "lightly steamed" version of coffee lol.
:) I had a feeling if I just told you I'm a GLP'er, that would explain a lot...
Be as dogmatic as you please. That's part of the fun of a forum. You obviously know your topic well enough to argue intelligently and readers like me have a chance to learn something new and get pointed in new directions for research. What's not to like? Your English looks fine to me; you even spell properly - and how often do you see correct spelling and grammar on GLP? What else do you speak? You needn't list everything for you understandably might want to keep a few things to yourself. I'm literate in 8 of them, so far, still working hard on the 2 newest. I've a long way to go to get into the class of linguists like Sir Richard Francis Burton, who spoke and wrote 22 of them but I'm not dead yet. And yes, I've drunk a fair amount of coffee over the years with all-night study sessions and I grew up in Colómbia anyway, so that proclivity started early in childhood.

Raw food lifestyle tends to push off anything we're doing more of than is good for us, at its own pace, which is why I just don't believe we need to try to cold-turkey all our little pleasures. That smacks of a 'puritan' attitude, as I said before. It's the American predilection for self-abuse, two sides of the same coin: hair shirts or depravity; no civilized grey area in-between. Modern life, as you have illustrated, is quite hard enough as it is without adding philosophical incarceration to the mix. A raw food lifestyle is simply good common sense; it is not a religion, or worse: organized religion. It needs no zealots and no fanatics to spread its message. Tangible results are what's spreading that message, not self-anointed high priests. (or more often, high-priestesses...) But, as we both know, there will always be people trying to make a cult out of everything they happen to be into and unfortunately, that drives away more new 'converts' than it attracts. Raw food is a natural way to live. If it had to be forced upon us, it wouldn't deserve to be called that and couldn't be made practical.

Whilst the 'study' with the caffeine screwing up a spider's weaving skills appears interesting, it can hardly be considered valid in the case of humans till somebody tries the same trick with human beings and manages to prove we can't plait our own hair either after a half-dozen espressos. That's called true empirical evidence, without which all experiments come to naught. I have never believed that any good comes from testing on animals for medical studies concerning humans and I'm unlikely to start now because somebody forgot the phylum difference between us and insects. And let's add the proper paranoia for a 'doomer' too: any time a government-funded study gets going, something we've been doing for millennia gets declared 'bad for us' at the same time that a quarter of a million people die every year in this country alone from the use of prescription drugs that are passed as safe by the FDA. Why? Because Big Pharma has deep pockets. It's unfortunate, but true, that the surest way to get to the facts where any kind of medical research is concerned these days is to 'follow the money.' Finally, don't forget that a good number of 'studies' being done today 'prove' that raw vegan is nutritionally inadequate and dangerous and in some states, CPS will try to take your kids away for feeding them that way.

[phak-i-tu]

Well unless there are people who drink coffee raw, I don't see it as too controversial to call it a vice on a raw food forum.
It's OK if one likes poetic license with proper definitions of a word, I suppose. Pederasty and theft are vices. You have apparently, never really wondered how all this cooking and boiling caught on in human history: Have you ever lived in countries where a safe supply of clean water is hard to come by, where you're likely to become ill or even die of something gross if you don't boil your water before you use it? Same goes for anything one uses to make teas or coffees. What makes you think the food and water supply in your own state is a whole lot better? What makes you think that everyone can afford the latest 'shout' in high-end water filtration systems? Do you think that those who cannot afford them 'don't matter?' "Raw food fora" are not just places for spoiled, soft elitists to pat each other on the backs, not if the concept is ever to catch on in the mainstream. And if it doesn't catch on in the mainstream, the entire lifestyle shall remain out of practical reach for most of us, particularly in an economic recession. Do you really think the human species has managed to survive to this point in time by being a lot of prissy tender-feet? It is at least, an alarming trait, for men.

[delmar]

...Have you ever lived in countries where a safe supply of clean water is hard to come by, where you're likely to become ill or even die of something gross if you don't boil your water before you use it? Same goes for anything one uses to make teas or coffees. What makes you think the food and water supply in your own state is a whole lot better? What makes you think that everyone can afford the latest 'shout' in high-end water filtration systems? Do you think that those who cannot afford them 'don't matter?...

I doubt if anyone on this forum has a problem with boiling water if need be, though I could be wrong.

[MysticTree]

It's the coffee not the boiled water that I consider not raw and vice is in the dictionary meaning fault, foible, failing etc as well as evil act so I still think vice is a valid word as used earlier in the thread.

[Non]

Interesting. well. I dont have a masters or doctorate in philosophy nor have studied it. But even just recently Im becoming aware that language can be a barrier. Especially, the popular way in which people communicate can lead to even things similar to nazism even if a person thinks he/she has the "absolute best of intentions".

so if I sound like Im being too dogmatic, or sounding like a cult leader using "rhetoric" or whatever please let me know.

[phak-i-tu]

It's the coffee not the boiled water that I consider not raw and vice is in the dictionary meaning fault, foible, failing etc as well as evil act so I still think vice is a valid word as used earlier in the thread.
Drinking coffee can be called even something so mild as a foible? Says Who? I'm not going to believe you really need the blackboard on this one, but just in case you actually do, here it is:
You are making a value judgement based on your personal opinion. That's fine, and those are like posteriors: everybody has one and theirs is just as good as yours. But here's the problem with that when it comes to communicating a lifestyle that is still, in case you haven't noticed this, considered by most people in the mainstream of society to be downright weird: you are basically telling people, most of whom are muddling through as best they can, trying against ever-worsening odds to care for their families, that their way of living, their harmless little domestic comforts, (those they can still afford...) are not only wrong, they're a 'vice,' too!

What do people think of when they hear that word? Vice Squad, that's what. Or alcoholism, drug addiction, domestic violence, get the picture? If you want to split hairs, 'vicious' comes from the same word base. Not quite nice, is it? What's likely to make them react negatively to your message is not the good sense and economy of a well-planned raw diet but the condescension and contempt displayed by an elitist attitude. They'll tell you to get off your high horse and they'll be justified in doing too. You underestimate the great weariness of people in this century of being preached at from all directions. Elitism is, alas, one of the pitfalls of every 'discriminated-against' minority lifestyle. We start feeling too 'special' and 'enlightened' - and totally out of touch with humanity as a whole. Words have power. Why else would corporations spend millions to get just the 'right' single little phrase? Even wars have been started over the wrong use of them.

Does anyone ever go totally raw and never once, even just for a moment, experience a little vision of how much happier our societies could be if we could make this available to everyone, not leaving anyone out? If we could feed everybody a beautiful raw diet? We all know these changes go deeper than physical, don't we? That's logical enough, because we can have better access to our brains. Maybe we could explore the universe together instead of thinking up ways to wipe each other off the map. For merely that small, fragile hope, the change we're starting in the world when we change first, ourselves, is just too important for us to take the risk of driving people off what we have to offer.

@Non,
There's nothing the least 'cultish' about you. Don't restrain your interesting natural style because of how you 'might' sound. You're an original thinker (especially when you say something strange :)) and that's always refreshing to meet. Languages are only barriers when you don't know how to speak them, but if you love them, you'll get very good indeed at breaking down barriers. You seem young; there's plenty of time for you yet to get your messages across with shining clarity. Anyway, I like you just fine because you have guts and you'll make the effort to communicate. That may be a more rare quality than you realize yet.

[MysticTree]

I don't mind if you drink coffee. I'm not telling you not to. I was just posting to a thread where someone was having difficulty giving up. Perhaps you forgot that is what the thread started out as being about. I'm not judging anyone who is drinking coffee anymore than you are judging someone who says they are addicted to caffeine but who you diagnose as having a personality disorder.

[Living Food]

their harmless little domestic comforts

I'm not getting into the middle of this whole argument, but coffee is hardly "harmless". If someone wants to drink it, fine, but they should realize that there are consequences.

[MysticTree]

It's been quite interesting Living foods how my bf an inveterate coffee drinker has been less and less wanting coffee and less and less wanting tea. I have reached a stage, through raw, where I no longer really crave a diet coke let alone the sometimes 6 litres I used to drink. I have never drunk tea or coffee because I just don't like hot drinks. I will be interested to see if bf's intake falls off any further. He now has a smoothie in the small vegan cafe where previously he would have two double espressos.

[phak-i-tu]

I don't mind if you drink coffee. I'm not telling you not to. I was just posting to a thread where someone was having difficulty giving up. Perhaps you forgot that is what the thread started out as being about. I'm not judging anyone who is drinking coffee anymore than you are judging someone who says they are addicted to caffeine but who you diagnose as having a personality disorder.
A proclivity for addiction, to anything, is a personality disorder. Fortunately, it's not really a common condition and 95% of people who think they are addicted to something are truly not - it's just the fashion these days to use that term. Sane, responsible people are supposed to be in control of themselves. If they're over-indulging in something that ends up making them feel like crap, common sense usually impels them to cut down and maybe, find something they like just as well that treats them better. There is no evidence to support the common belief that nature lies in wait for all of us with a bouquet of 'addictive' substances just in order to ruin our day. At the least, that's plain paranoia; at worst, it's a general taking of our hands off the steering wheel of our own lives, quite often leading us over a cliff. There's too much glamor attached to the status of 'victim' these days and now, everybody wants to be one. This softening of the backbone is dangerous to people and frankly, suicidal for nations.

Non brought up a valid point here about modern people feeling a real need for stimulants just to keep up with the pace of modern life. Telling people that 'stimulants are bad' is not much of a solution by itself for it changes not one detail of the demands on their time and their lives that got them into this position in the first place. Telling people to go out and buy something they cannot afford with which to replace their favorite 'go-juice' doesn't help much either. We have to deal with what is, not what we think should be. I don't need to tell any of you here how many psychological attachments people form to little rituals of food and drink nor why the 'frontal assault' on them is almost never successful, especially in the long term. What good does it do to tell anyone that he doesn't need what he's convinced he does - and has more personal evidence for his opinion than strangers can have for theirs? If someone wants a change, all we can do is try to help, not preach at him, not talk to him like he's a drug addict. Scaring people just depresses them and then they'll go right back to their familiar comforts to avoid the weight of that feeling.

Raw food is its own teacher and healer. What's most important is that people start eating raw as much as they can and not worry about the small stuff and trying to get everything 'perfect' from the start. Let people start from exactly where they are, piece by piece, for if they shock their mind and body by taking away absolutely everything familiar, the vast majority of them are not going to have the toughness to make it and will have to keep starting and stopping over and over again. Anything that doesn't belong there will fall off on its own. Cravings for the foods and drinks of the past will lessen and eventually go away completely. Do we believe in its power or not? If we do, then let it speak, and act, for itself.

@ Living Food,
These days, even walking out your front door can have 'consequences,' if you're not careful. You could even get killed by a toy train - if you ate it. We are not so delicate a species, after all, considering how many billions of us have taken over the planet to date, even to the point of alarming overpopulation. With bombs going off in more areas of the planet every day, imminent famine and starvation, revolutions and if you're into that: solar flares and polar shifts, I really don't think a few cups of Java are worth getting our knickers in a twist over.

I'll tell you something humorous you may not know: in America, certain of our religious denominations are opposed to the use of coffee and tea (condemning them as 'stimulants') but they do allow herbal teas of all kinds. One of the most famous of that lot of herbals, so commonly drunk by them that it was named after some of them is American ephedrine! Now, that stuff really will keep you up all night, at the same time that it happens to be one of the best bronchial dilators in the world. Stewed slowly on the back of your woodstove till it turns red and drunk a few times a day, it'll knock out a chest congestion in 24 hours. Common regional names for it here in the Southwest, where it grows, are Desert Tea and Mormon Tea. It grew in profusion mere feet from my hogan on Navajo land; looks like a bush of sticks. I hope the FDA never does a study and proves its benefits for if they do, they'll declare it a drug and make it illegal to possess.

[MysticTree]

I'm not preaching anything. You are on a raw forum and coffee isn't raw and someone was asking for help trying to give it up. Why does it surprise you that anyone with an interest in supporting others in following a raw food lifestyle would try to offer help to someone asking for help quitting coffee? You complain about Puritanical attitudes and yet you seem to have followed a Puritanical streak centred entirely on the use of the word vice.

[delmar]

A proclivity for addiction, to anything, is a personality disorder. Fortunately, it's not really a common condition and 95% of people who think they are addicted to something are truly not - it's just the fashion these days to use that term. Sane, responsible people are supposed to be in control of themselves. If they're over-indulging in something that ends up making them feel like crap, common sense usually impels them to cut down and maybe, find something they like just as well that treats them better. There is no evidence to support the common belief that nature lies in wait for all of us with a bouquet of 'addictive' substances just in order to ruin our day. At the least, that's plain paranoia; at worst, it's a general taking of our hands off the steering wheel of our own lives, quite often leading us over a cliff. There's too much glamor attached to the status of 'victim' these days and now, everybody wants to be one. This softening of the backbone is dangerous to people and frankly, suicidal for nations.

Non brought up a valid point here about modern people feeling a real need for stimulants just to keep up with the pace of modern life. Telling people that 'stimulants are bad' is not much of a solution by itself for it changes not one detail of the demands on their time and their lives that got them into this position in the first place. Telling people to go out and buy something they cannot afford with which to replace their favorite 'go-juice' doesn't help much either. We have to deal with what is, not what we think should be. I don't need to tell any of you here how many psychological attachments people form to little rituals of food and drink nor why the 'frontal assault' on them is almost never successful, especially in the long term. What good does it do to tell anyone that he doesn't need what he's convinced he does - and has more personal evidence for his opinion than strangers can have for theirs? If someone wants a change, all we can do is try to help, not preach at him, not talk to him like he's a drug addict. Scaring people just depresses them and then they'll go right back to their familiar comforts to avoid the weight of that feeling.

Raw food is its own teacher and healer. What's most important is that people start eating raw as much as they can and not worry about the small stuff and trying to get everything 'perfect' from the start. Let people start from exactly where they are, piece by piece, for if they shock their mind and body by taking away absolutely everything familiar, the vast majority of them are not going to have the toughness to make it and will have to keep starting and stopping over and over again. Anything that doesn't belong there will fall off on its own. Cravings for the foods and drinks of the past will lessen and eventually go away completely. Do we believe in its power or not? If we do, then let it speak, and act, for itself.

@ Living Food,
These days, even walking out your front door can have 'consequences,' if you're not careful. You could even get killed by a toy train - if you ate it. We are not so delicate a species, after all, considering how many billions of us have taken over the planet to date, even to the point of alarming overpopulation. With bombs going off in more areas of the planet every day, imminent famine and starvation, revolutions and if you're into that: solar flares and polar shifts, I really don't think a few cups of Java are worth getting our knickers in a twist over.

I'll tell you something humorous you may not know: in America, certain of our religious denominations are opposed to the use of coffee and tea (condemning them as 'stimulants') but they do allow herbal teas of all kinds. One of the most famous of that lot of herbals, so commonly drunk by them that it was named after some of them is American ephedrine! Now, that stuff really will keep you up all night, at the same time that it happens to be one of the best bronchial dilators in the world. Stewed slowly on the back of your woodstove till it turns red and drunk a few times a day, it'll knock out a chest congestion in 24 hours. Common regional names for it here in the Southwest, where it grows, are Desert Tea and Mormon Tea. It grew in profusion mere feet from my hogan on Navajo land; looks like a bush of sticks. I hope the FDA never does a study and proves its benefits for if they do, they'll declare it a drug and make it illegal to possess.You said some things in this post that I agree with and some things...
...not so much. I would try to discuss those things but, for some reason, it feels to me like you are spoiling for a fight, so I think I'll pass.

[streetsurfer]

.........................

[Revvell]

Holy crap!

[delmar]

Holy crap!I don't get it

[Revvell]

I don't get it

All the crap I'm seeing here, from one person in particular.

[phak-i-tu]

Holy crap!
Are one-liners a specialty of yours?
I have a couple of questions for all of you and then I'll leave you all in peace to go back to singing to the choir - with the reminder that we have a lot of casual visitors here, daily, any one of which might be profoundly influenced by anything that any of us says here. All of you here, do not underestimate the power of what you have to say! We cannot know which poster, which single line is going to trip which trigger in the mind of the curious onlooker. As an experienced (read: tired) social justice lobbyist and campaigner, I'll admit I feel that perhaps a bit more strongly than most of you, since the people I have to take on are usually tough as nails and just about as kind on tender skin. Maybe you too, can help here, Revvel, with a little more than "crap" and "flogging." I want to present, as an example of people I'd like to help, a test case for those knowledgeable among us here, for treating the nutritional deficiencies that are at the back of a daily need for stimulants.

We know there are two kinds of nutritional emergencies to deal with here: the one causing a need for a daily pick-me-up and the one caused by repeated over-tacking of the nervous system as a result. How do we feed those nutritional gaps right now without stretching people's grocery budgets more than they can bear, without sending off for expensive appliances or expensive supplements they never heard of? What can these people eat? Don't tell me anything too 'fancy' or hard to get; I'd just get laughed at. If we can't do anything about the stresses of people's daily lives that are wearing them down to begin with, what can they be adding more of to their diet right now to toughen them against its effects?

Anyone who hasn't been living on Mars has likely heard of the power-grid failures affecting people all over 'the industrial world' lately so I have wondered why I haven't seen anyone here suggest investing in a back-up power supply before buying an appliance for making daily green juice to fix what ails us. Right here in the States, I lived in an area that never had any grid power to begin with. The only grid was on the state highway and I lived several miles of dirt from that. So did all the other families out there. If you wanted power, you generated your own somehow and how much you got was largely dependent upon how much rig you could buy and what kind. If you're doing solar, you might well run your computer and modem and occasionally small appliances on a couple of 120 watts but you're going to need big bucks if you want to run the average power-grid house. When it's 110 degrees in the shade, inside your house, during summer, your power is going to your fans and water-coolers, count on that.

Do you all know how much power you need even to fire up one of those 'high-end' juicers? Unless your power inverter carries at least a 3000 watt and weighs almost as much as you do, it's not even to going to carry the initial surge. So, diets with a dependence on power-sucking machinery and low portability 'ain't cuttin it!' There has to be a better way when we're living in a time when 'Mr. Murphy' is always waiting around the corner for any one of us. What is it? If people are lucky enough, during an economic depression, to find themselves with a few hundred dollars to spare, and knowing the latest news of an out-dated infrastructure failing all over the country, does anyone think they'll send off for a Vitamix and wait for it when what they need is good nutrition this minute for their families? Not unless they're fools.

So, how to get off the stimulant treadmill and rebuild health for the frugal, the cash-strapped, the rural who live a day's ride from a store? What's missing that we can put back?

[streetsurfer]

The answer is in fractals.

[Non]

sorry, I haven't read everything on this page but I wanted to add that...

it's been hard for me also to quit... being that.. once caffeinated beverages become a crutch for energy, it's used in place of nourishment. When I get off it, my lack of nourishment seems to surface. Lack of nutrition, lack of nourishment in all aspects of life not just in food. In water, in fresh air, in relationships and community, in exercise, in awareness of other things which can be affecting my energy levels.

Well, I know, yerba mate also has it's own nutritional qualities... and until I install my water filters, and my expensive EMF cancelling techs.. hopefully and sprouting... hopefully it'll get better for me. Until then. i've been using it as a green vegetable. Somewhat cheap. I read somewhere that the old gauchos (Southe American Cowboys) would drink it all day, and have one meal of just a serving of meat. Oh goody... an excuse.

[Non]

I hear you on the juicers things. I will not likely invest in a juicer.. and if so, maybe a manual one.

I've just been getting by on a lb or 2 of greens, lot of soaked nuts and seeds and the occasional fruit. Organic though.. lately has been seeming like a must. Not the nuts and seeds so much though. Wit all the chemical pesticides.. sigh.. nutritional deficiencies. Even that doesn't seem to cut it these days with depleted farms.

[phak-i-tu]

sorry, I haven't read everything on this page but I wanted to add that...

it's been hard for me also to quit... being that.. once caffeinated beverages become a crutch for energy, it's used in place of nourishment. When I get off it, my lack of nourishment seems to surface. Lack of nutrition, lack of nourishment in all aspects of life not just in food. In water, in fresh air, in relationships and community, in exercise, in awareness of other things which can be affecting my energy levels.

Well, I know, yerba mate also has it's own nutritional qualities... and until I install my water filters, and my expensive EMF cancelling techs.. hopefully and sprouting... hopefully it'll get better for me. Until then. i've been using it as a green vegetable. Somewhat cheap. I read somewhere that the old gauchos (Southe American Cowboys) would drink it all day, and have one meal of just a serving of meat. Oh goody... an excuse.
Hi, Non. Speaking of Argentina, have you ever seen this wonderful blog, Surviving in Argentina? Much to learn there for all of us!
http://ferfal.blogspot.com/
How are you using yerba mate as a green vegetable? In what form are you buying the stuff? Dried or fresh?
It's those nutritional deficiencies I'm hoping to get to the bottom of. Got some EMF-blocking tech? It's all expensive, from what I've seen online. I'm just glad I bought so much dried seaweed before 'Fuku' blew its top last year. Did you see what happened to the price of iodine supplements right after that? And the total lack of availability? A manager I know at one of the Walgreens' close to Albuquerque told me they had been getting calls from various government officials, during that time, asking them to remove all their iodine products from the shelves. Knowing our natural nutritional sources and taking care to stock up however we can is our only defense now. I want to learn as much as I can about sprouting since seeds don't take up a lot of room and they're not on the radar now so that any artificial shortages are so likely to be created - yet. For now, those look to be our potential powerhouses of nutrition.

[Living Food]

It's been quite interesting Living foods how my bf an inveterate coffee drinker has been less and less wanting coffee and less and less wanting tea. I have reached a stage, through raw, where I no longer really crave a diet coke let alone the sometimes 6 litres I used to drink. I have never drunk tea or coffee because I just don't like hot drinks. I will be interested to see if bf's intake falls off any further. He now has a smoothie in the small vegan cafe where previously he would have two double espressos.

That's good...but, I can't resist...


6 litres I used to drink.

HOLY CRAP!!!!

It's a miracle you're still with us Mystic :)

Now, down to business.


There is no evidence to support the common belief that nature lies in wait for all of us with a bouquet of 'addictive' substances just in order to ruin our day. At the least, that's plain paranoia;

You seem to say that we are possibly scaring people by denouncing coffee, and yet you are talking about power grids going out, it being dangerous to walk out your door or be around toy trains, bombs, revolutions, etc. etc. Hmmm...


These days, even walking out your front door can have 'consequences,' if you're not careful. You could even get killed by a toy train - if you ate it. We are not so delicate a species, after all, considering how many billions of us have taken over the planet to date, even to the point of alarming overpopulation. With bombs going off in more areas of the planet every day, imminent famine and starvation, revolutions and if you're into that: solar flares and polar shifts, I really don't think a few cups of Java are worth getting our knickers in a twist over.

Okay, I laughed about the toy train part, but the rest is confusing. Why worry about what you eat or drink, because you might die at any time, right? That's what I got out of it. Why not eat SAD, sit on our butts watching television 24/7, never exercise or help a neighbor, blah blah blah. I'm not buying it. "A few cups of Java" is a harmful habit, just like eating SAD; and if you're going to say to not worry about drinking coffee because we live in such a dangerous world, you might as well give the okay to all of the other things I just mentioned as well. Like I said earlier, if someone wants to drink coffee, fine, but they should at least know the facts. It's a commendable goal that you are trying to get people to get off stimulants (I think that's what you said in your second to last post), but at the same time you seem to be saying that they are fine to use as well. Sends a mixed message.

The answer to stimulant use? First, let me say that "magic bullet" approaches are destined to fail, and perpetrated by the pharmaceutical industry so that nobody starts trying to take their health into their own hands. The real answer is to get people to go raw, detoxify, all of the things that lead to holistic health. That said, I understand firsthand how difficult it is to convince most people to do that - so many times people have come to me sick and wanted to feel better, but didn't have the dedication to completely change their lifestyle. People are complacent, and that's sad because very few will ever get to experience the true beauty of perfect health and vitality, of energy levels and capabilities that surpass their wildest dreams.

Therefore, the "magic bullet" approach would be homegrown wheatgrass juice made w/ a manual juicer, although even that is far to much for most people to be bothered doing. Another one would be to do a series of cleanses, but again that requires commitment. What people really need is a paradigm shift, since they're still waiting for a pill to come out to solve all of their problems. It don't work that way, folks. We know that, but the trick is to convince the average person.


What can these people eat? Don't tell me anything too 'fancy' or hard to get; I'd just get laughed at. If we can't do anything about the stresses of people's daily lives that are wearing them down to begin with, what can they be adding more of to their diet right now to toughen them against its effects?

The best answer is sprouts, as they are cheap and extremely nutritious. I would be recommending this even if I didn't think they were one of the best things to eat, by the way, just because of the cheapness and nutritional factors. Even if poorer people could afford to live on cheap produce (and sometimes you can find loads of it for very low prices, although generally the quality is somewhat lacking), it wouldn't satisfy all of their nutritional requirements.


Got some EMF-blocking tech? It's all expensive, from what I've seen online.

You can make such devices for about 50 cents apiece, although to understand how they work requires that you accept that mainstream science and physics is utterly wrong. Still, if you can promote those things to people, that would be hugely beneficial. This is something that everyone can afford to make themselves, and make lots of them at that.

The real answer to nutritional deficiencies, though, is to change the way we farm and re-mineralize and re-fertilize our farms, then stop turning the resulting food into processed junk. While we're at it we could try growing more then just wheat and soybeans, too. Good luck with that.


I want to learn as much as I can about sprouting since seeds don't take up a lot of room and they're not on the radar now so that any artificial shortages are so likely to be created - yet. For now, those look to be our potential powerhouses of nutrition.

Go to this thread (http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?64973-Sprouting!&highlight=sprouting%21), it has some good sprouting info.


The answer is in fractals.

I'm guessing that that is a joke, but if not please elaborate.




I think that covers everything.

[MysticTree]

Before I rush out to buy a back up power supply do you think I ought to invest in a primary one? There are ways of cheaply going raw or you can spend lots of money or you can go a middle route. There's nothing expensive about green juices for example which is the only thing i suggested on this thread as a possible alternative to coffee. It can be expensive if you want it to be of course but I don't. I don't have a lot of money. What I do have I am investing in compost and trying to become ad damned near self sufficient as possible.

[MysticTree]

LF, I think it may indeed be a wonder. I know I feel a lot better since giving it up. No diet coke at all for 14 months :)

[Non]

I know this thread is about coffee. BUt even with Yerba Mate, if I drink too much it has side effects.

Or mabye Im just sensitive, or more intuitive. Or deficient in some nutrients. I also like to think that.. I require/desire a much more refined state of consciousness, one where there is less "craving" and emotionals ups and downs.

Though occasional use, shamanistically it can be useful. I like that there is a tradition of drinking yerba mate to "bring friends andd family closer together" and the "spiritual significance" and symbolism of a Gourd.

Reminds me of the biblical story of Jonah's Gourd.

[Non]

Hi, Non. Speaking of Argentina, have you ever seen this wonderful blog, Surviving in Argentina? Much to learn there for all of us!
http://ferfal.blogspot.com/
How are you using yerba mate as a green vegetable? In what form are you buying the stuff? Dried or fresh?
It's those nutritional deficiencies I'm hoping to get to the bottom of. Got some EMF-blocking tech? It's all expensive, from what I've seen online. I'm just glad I bought so much dried seaweed before 'Fuku' blew its top last year. Did you see what happened to the price of iodine supplements right after that? And the total lack of availability? A manager I know at one of the Walgreens' close to Albuquerque told me they had been getting calls from various government officials, during that time, asking them to remove all their iodine products from the shelves. Knowing our natural nutritional sources and taking care to stock up however we can is our only defense now. I want to learn as much as I can about sprouting since seeds don't take up a lot of room and they're not on the radar now so that any artificial shortages are so likely to be created - yet. For now, those look to be our potential powerhouses of nutrition.

The Mate Factor yerba mate is the freshest green mate one can find online it seems. Green means not smoked so green doesn't always mean "raw" , just not smoked. But I can assure that the Mate Factor is totally raw.

Oregon Yerba Mate has also been found on a rawfoods online store I've seen. Dont know why, but I've emailed them and they say there is "no heat involved". It's a mixture of fresh and aged mate.

Both can be cold brewed.

Then there is the chimarrao stuff from Brazil which seems to be commonly made with fresh green mate.

[delmar]

Before I rush out to buy a back up power supply do you think I ought to invest in a primary one? :D Exactly what I was thinking! I do have reliable power. It has never been out for more than a few hours at a time in the last decade. Still, my primary juicer is a homemade press. I do shred a lot of stuff with an electric food processor but I have manual ways to do that in a pinch. I also ordered a manual grass juicer that should be here in a few days.

[MysticTree]

I can't envisage us having electricity before next year. We have two wood burners to go in our living space. But we haven't got that living space yet either! No way I'm having a wood burner in a tiny caravan. We'd be burnt to a crisp!

I have a manual juicer. Inexpensive and works just fine because I don't juice as much as say Mr Raw does. I wouldn't mind a hand cranked blender though but they are so expensive to ship to the UK and there isn't a distributor here :(

[Living Food]

What I do have I am investing in compost and trying to become ad damned near self sufficient as possible.

If only the whole world thought like that.

I would think that you would have plenty of materials for making free compost due to living in a more rural area with lots of organic material? I don't see why you would have to buy it.

[MysticTree]

we live in an urban area. The land has scalpings and tarmac down so I'm putting membrane down and building veg beds skywards. I use free wood from packing crates at work and we have a tree surgeon who is tipping very cheap loads of freshly chipped tree branches/brush which I use as weed control. I make lots of compost but am also having to ship in locally made organic compost.

[Living Food]

we live in an urban area.

Oops, guess I misinterpreted that thread you started a while back (http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?67877-My-new-home-....-lots-of-room-for-veggies.&highlight=) about your new home. Ah well.

Why not burn some of those tree branches/brush and use the ash as a soil amendment? Burning weeds works wonders also, but I usually prefer to compost them.

[MysticTree]

Oops, guess I misinterpreted that thread you started a while back (http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?67877-My-new-home-....-lots-of-room-for-veggies.&highlight=) about your new home. Ah well.

Why not burn some of those tree branches/brush and use the ash as a soil amendment? Burning weeds works wonders also, but I usually prefer to compost them.

It just looks country-like due to the over-growth of brambles etc. There is a main road and a railway line and a river all quite close. I will try to take some more pictures at the weekend.

[delmar]

I wouldn't mind a hand cranked blender though but they are so expensive to ship to the UK and there isn't a distributor here :(I just started a thread about pedal powered gadgets that you may want to check out.
http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?68691-Pedal-treadal-powered-juicers-and-gadgets&p=697553#post697553

[Non]

I have to retract the statements I made about Guayusa tea and yerba mate. None of the products I mentioned are raw after comfirming with the companies that sell them. It seems they pretty much have to either flash heat or dry it above 118F so it'll either dry faster or so that it will even dry at all. But this denatures the enzymes. Oh well, I guess, only truly raw sprouted unfermented cacao beans would be the way to experience an "all raw" caffeine boost. Not that I can't just give it all up though.

Regards all

[Living Food]

Oh well, I guess, only truly raw sprouted unfermented cacao beans would be the way to experience an "all raw" caffeine boost. Not that I can't just give it all up though.

In the case of cacao beans, I don't think sprouting alone removes all of the nutrient inhibitors, so it should be fermented. I'm nowhere near an expert on cacao, though, so don't take my word for it.

[Non]

well.. then that just goes to show that caffeinated products usually are not raw. And for even yerba mate and guayusa (which sunfood ADVERTISES as raw) are pretty hard to find raw because they have to be dried at a high temperature to even dry up enough to process it. Otherwise it would probably mold or decrease shelflife by a lot. I wonder if they could just either freeze dry it or at least.. powder it up and that would be different. Ie in capsules but Im sure encapsulated yerba has gone through a processing as well to make it enzymatically deactivated.

Guayusa is heated to 136 degrees Farenheit in a dryer. This doesn't classify it as raw at least by modern raw foodist standards which say 118 is the limit. Now even some say that 106 could be the new limit because that's when certain enzymes start to denature. That would make any truly raw herbs I believe hard to find as Im sure during the drying and decontamination processes they are heated above this temperature.

As for cacao.. I heard Essential Living Foods sell low temperature fermented cacao. Not sure if this sprouts though. Some claim this isn't a truly raw product even if it's low temperature fermented. The only way to find truly raw cacao would be to find a cacao pod and open it up.

[Zoefzoef]

I have gone through different phases with coffee. Years ago i would drink several cups a day as there was always some brewing at the office and you had to do an effort to find something else like fresh water. I got off the nasty habit very naturally when I started my daily (hot) yoga practice. After that I was like some of you, allowing myself a cup here and there as a treat, maybe once every several months. This made me realize that for me the addiction was not necessarily to the caffeine, but more to the whole ritual that goes with holding a warm mug in your hands, the smell and the dark earthy flavor. Herbal teas just dont give me that same pleasure. With the caffeine withdrawal I could live. Terrible headaches, yes, but it is usually not more than a couple of days and if you flush yourself with tons of water and lots of physical exercise it will go away very fast.
So I started to like for alternatives with similar qualities, but without the caffeine. I really started to like the non-coffee drinks like cafix or whatever its called. Its made of barley, chicoree and beetroot. When I still drank coffee I couldnt stand the stuff because I thought it didnt taste anything like coffee. But when I was off coffee for a while I did like it because of similar earthy and robust flavors, I loved it with steamed almond milk.
Anyway, now Im raw. I had a couple cups of hot herbal tea in the first week and thats it. I thought I would really miss my hot comfort drinks. But I am actually not so much. I am just now looking for raw alternatives for drinks that can give me the same satisfaction in taste. I have never been a sweet tooth and need some counterbalance for all the sweet fruits and sweet flavors I am consuming.
I cant remember the last time I had a sip of coffee, but do find myself stop once in a while and sniffing in the coffee smells when I pass a coffee shop.

So long story short, I think you should ask yourself: is it really/just the caffeine or are there other aspects to this addiction, like the social, the morning rituals, the smells the flavors. And then see how you can replace those aspects in a healthy way.