Will green super food powder replace juicing veggies?

[jrank001]

Hi.

I’m on day 15 of my 60 day juice fast. I needed to detox my system of all the years of abuse of poor diet and all the rest. The first three days about killed me.

I’m about done with trying to drink juiced veggies. Just can’t stand the taste. However fruit is wonderful and tasty.

My concern is that I’m not getting enough protein drinking fruit drinks. So I went to my health food store and purchased some green superfood. Will that satisfy my bodies need for the benefits of vegetables? Will it cover the protein concern?

Also, I've yet to feel this burst of energy folks have said they feel during a fast. Will this come soon? After day 20?

[Traceyraw]

Try mixing fruit with your veggies. Here is my favorite juice.
Kale, celery, apple, lemon and lime. the lemon and lime cut the green flavor. It tastes like lemonade.

I am not sure about the supergreen food.

Happy juicing.

[MysticTree]

I think if you don't like green juice, you won't like green powder but try it and see I guess.

Like TracyRaw says mix the veg with the fruit. Although in my experience if you don't like cucumber juice then nothing, but nothing, is gonna hide the flavour of that.

Which veggies are you having problems with? Celery, carrot, apple and lemon are very nice and I can even add beetroot though I can't drink beetroot on its own.

Find a base of fruits/veggies that you do like and experiment with adding spinach/kale etc to it in small amounts.

[garden granny]

I don't like any of the green powders, they taste awful to me. I much prefer green juices or smoothies with real greens, just don't add too much greens, and add an apple and/or lemon, tastes very good that way. There's no way I can drink straight green juice or smoothie without it.

[MysticTree]

There's no way I can drink straight green juice or smoothie without it.

You are right ... there has to be an element of enjoyment about the whole juicing thing.

[Ucat]

I just did a 7-day juice fast and now I'm fasting every full moon and new moon. I didn't get the crazy energy either. Yet. But I think to get that you have to take a home enema every day or go to do a colonics with a therapist fairly regularly. The problem on a fast becomes constipation, where your toxins are stuck and can't move anywhere, hindering the detox (because there is a lack of fiber I guess). Alternatively, you could do herbal laxatives like senna tea but I don't think that is nearly as effective and probably strains your body quite a bit.

I would say concentrating on moving the lymph and making sure your body is eliminating the toxins is crucial. Take hot baths (to sweat toxins out), ideally with epsom salts, enemas or colonics daily at least for 6 days, you could try dry brushing (it moves the lymph), or cold showers to get your blood circulating (but only very quickly and after a warm shower to not make you feel too cold), body scrubs, castor oil pack on the liver to help clear its toxins out, etc. After packing the liver with castor oil and doing 2-3 regular enemas you could do a coffee enema, which is meant to clear out the gall bladder as well (but don't do it straight away, you might end up more toxic).

I don't think you need much protein anyway, at least not on a daily basis. Worst case scenario you could always take amino acid supplements and add braggs liquid amino acids to your drinks (not raw).

Although you might not need greens for protein, having them for detoxification is quite important. The chlorophyll in them helps to transport oxygen into cells which is crucial for everything! AND chlorophyll also transports heavy metals and other toxins out of your body. So for detox purposes, any form of chlorophyll is brilliant stuff! You can take chlorella in capsule form if you can't stand it in liquid. Spirulina tastes awful but I don't mind wheatgrass powder.

I write more about the importance of chlorophyll here:
http://www.cheap-health-revolution.com/world-hunger.html

Do you like coriander? You can juice a bunch or two of that with plenty of lemon and it is so refreshing and nice. Perhaps the problem is not the greens themselves but what greens you have?

______________________________________
www.cheap-health-revolution.com

[Ucat]

Oh, and also, I think the greens (chlorophyll) might play an important role in the energy levels you feel. But as long as you're not feeling worse than normal I wouldn't worry about the energy levels too much. I think you'll feel it eventually if you keep cleaning your system and stay very disciplined about getting a balanced diet. And, of course, find a way to ingest chlorophyll that works ;) In great quantities....

My favourite juice on the juice fast was pink grapefruit juice, I felt addicted to it, I just couldn't get enough. And it made me feel so good every time! Juice fasting is definitely so much more effective in making me feel good than raw food diet. Although raw food diet itself is pretty amazing.

[jrank001]

Try mixing fruit with your veggies. Here is my favorite juice.
Kale, celery, apple, lemon and lime. the lemon and lime cut the green flavor. It tastes like lemonade.

I am not sure about the supergreen food.

Happy juicing.

I'll give it a try

[Ayshdysh]

wow thank you for all the info

[snoops]

I have a green drink every morning and actually like the taste. Its Genuine Health Greens + - can only get it in Canada(I'm stocking up while I am here!). I would not consider it replacing green veggies though. I do not enjoy the taste of juiced greens only so I also put fruit in them.

[Hanneke]

I would only go for the green powder in emergencies. I guess you are doing this also for your health. Nothing beats real food because it is alive. So I mean that if you juice real fruits and veggies you get a lot of enzymes and other nutrients that are alive. That means not processed to death. Powder might have benefits but not matter how you view it, it is processed. Therefor personally I would only use it in an emergency but not on a daily basis.

Use spinach in your apple or pinapple juices. You won't taste it but you will get a lot of greens in. Also ad sweet potatoe to a citrus combination, very delicious and does not taste like veggies. You will grow to like certain things, give it time.
Spinach does make your fruit juices look nasty and brown though, however it tastes great!

[GreginND]

The chlorophyll in them helps to transport oxygen into cells which is crucial for everything! AND chlorophyll also transports heavy metals and other toxins out of your body. So for detox purposes, any form of chlorophyll is brilliant stuff! You can take chlorella in capsule form if you can't stand it in liquid. Spirulina tastes awful but I don't mind wheatgrass powder.

I write more about the importance of chlorophyll here:
http://www.cheap-health-revolution.com/world-hunger.html


Could you please elaborate on this? I don't find anything but the same claims on your web site. But there are no sources given for where this information comes from. Are there studies that show chlorophyll is absorbed by the gut intact? How does chlorophyll transport oxygen? This makes no sense based on the biology and chemistry of chlorophyll. The David Jubb quotes are bizarre. Biophotons? Electrons can be combined to make protons and neutrons to make proteins? This is just incoherent nonsense.

[Ucat]

Could you please elaborate on this? I don't find anything but the same claims on your web site. But there are no sources given for where this information comes from. Are there studies that show chlorophyll is absorbed by the gut intact? How does chlorophyll transport oxygen? This makes no sense based on the biology and chemistry of chlorophyll. The David Jubb quotes are bizarre. Biophotons? Electrons can be combined to make protons and neutrons to make proteins? This is just incoherent nonsense.

Hey GreginND,

Thank you for your constructive criticism first of all.


But there are no sources given for where this information comes from. You're right, perhaps I should provide more references at the end of the article. But if you're looking for peer-reviewed research papers then no, I can't prove it and I definitely can't prove it first hand because I'm not a scientist. The information is based on books I've read, mostly by raw foodists or scientists. Some of it is based on David Wolfe's talk at the Longevity Now -conference last year on cancer. But what do you consider a reliable source, that's the interesting question. Personally, I wouldn't trust many scientific papers - and then again, others I would but, there are no absolute truths in the world, everything is based on beliefs. So I have to go by what I find interesting and worth sharing in my blog, and what's more, what I BELIEVE to be true. But you're right in that I should provide more references.

The idea of my website is to provide inspiration based on what I've read, and what I found inspiring, and whoever is insterested can then do their own research or contact me to request for references and clarification (as you did).

Basically this information was a combination of Victoria Boutenko's 'Green for Life', and David Jubb's 'Jubbs Cell Rejuvenation'. But many other people talk about the same things.


How does chlorophyll transport oxygen? This makes no sense based on the biology and chemistry of chlorophyll. Do you know how exactly hemoglobin transports oxygen? I don't but it is common knowledge that hemoglobin (the red pigment in our blood) carries oxygen from the air in our lungs to be used as energy by our cells. What is maybe less well known is that chlorophyll (the green pigment in plants) does the exact same thing for plant cells AND has a very similar structure to the hemoglobin molecule. If you look at the molecule structure of chlorophyll you can see it carries oxygen (O). The difference between a hemoglobin molecule and a chlorophyll molecule is that the former has an iron atom at its centre and the latter has a magnesium atom.

"Chlorophyll is the pigment in plants within which photosynthesis takes place. It absorbs the vibrant sun energy and transforms it into plant energy. This energy is transferred directly to youwhen you eat chlorophyll-rich foods, such as green-leafed vegetables. [...] Chlorophyll is the blood of plants just as hemoglobin is the blood of the body. The difference between the two molecules is that chlorophyll is centered on magnesium while hemoglobin is centered on iron." p. 182 Sunfood Diet Success System, David Wolfe

"... Such 'good', or aerobic, bacteria thrive in the presence of oxygen and require it for their continued growth and existence. That is why, if we don't have enough oxygen in the cells of our body, 'bad' bacteria take over and begin to thrive, causing an extreme amount of infection and disease. These pathogenic bacteria are anaerobic and cannot tolerate gaseous oxygen. [...] Chlorophyll carries significant amounts of oxygen with it and thus plays a critical role in supporting the aerobic bacteria. Therefore, the more chlorophyll we consume the better our intestinal flora and overall health will be." p. 196 Green for Life, Victoria Boutenko

Also, regarding detoxifying heavy metals:
"...chlorophyll is one of the most important chelates in nature. It’s ability to bind to and remove toxic heavy metals such as mercury makes it an extremely powerful healer." - This information is all over the internet, this was from a quick google search from http://www.energiseforlife.com/wordpress/2009/02/11/health-benefits-of-liquid-chlorophyll/


Are there studies that show chlorophyll is absorbed by the gut intact?
I believe the chlorophyll must be absorbed into our blood somehow since the health benefits of greens are widely know and accepted (even by the governments). There is controversy about whether enzymes can be absorbed by the human body or not. Those opposing state that stomach acids will kill all enzymes before they can be utilised. Proponents, however, believe that a lot of the nutrients are absorbed before the food gets in touch with the stomach acids. Perhaps it is the same thing with chlorophyll. I know nutrients get absorbed directly from our mouths and from our skin anyway so why not while it's on its way to the stomach...


The David Jubb quotes are bizarre. Biophotons?
Here is an MIT article on biophotons, entitled "The Emerging Field of Biophotonic Communication":
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/24425/

Wikipedia on biophotons (check out the history bit for scientist references whose work you can look into for more information):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biophoton


Electrons can be combined to make protons and neutrons to make proteins? This is just incoherent nonsense. Incoherent nonsense is a bit harsh considering that you haven't read the book... and that you don't have a PhD in neurophysiology like the writer has.... Or do you?
(David Jubb is a neurophysiologist and exercise physiologist who received his Ph.D. from New York University.)

I know this doesn't exhaustively answer all your questions but hopefully it helps a little bit. This is just a "quick" response but if you want a more structured one, please post the same question on my website and I will do the research and write a full article in response! I like being critiqued... But I need a bit of time to do it and I don't have the luxury now. You can post further questions here but I will be forced to stick to "short" answers like this one.

_____________________________
www.cheap-health-revolution.com

[GreginND]

Thanks for your reply. I address a number of points below. Please know that I mean no disrespect at all to you and my intention here is to help people understand some of the science involved here and why some of these ideas expressed by the nutritional experts make little sense. I hope you take this in the spirit I intend. Without being face to face it is often easy to misinterpret written words and take them personally when they were not meant that way at all.


Personally, I wouldn't trust many scientific papers - and then again, others I would but, there are no absolute truths in the world, everything is based on beliefs.


I would rather have repeatable testable evidence to support my beliefs rather than believing something just because I want to. I would trust peer-reviewed scientific papers over lack of evidence.



The idea of my website is to provide inspiration based on what I've read, and what I found inspiring, and whoever is insterested can then do their own research or contact me to request for references and clarification (as you did).


I appreciate your work on your website and certainly don't question your good intentions at all.


Do you know how exactly hemoglobin transports oxygen?


Actually, I do know how hemoglobin transports oxygen. The four heme units bound in the hemoglobin protein bind to O2 (an oxygen molecule) at the iron center. The metal is critical for this process. Magnesium does not bind oxygen in the same way. Thus my question as to how chlorophyll could possibly be doing it.


I don't but it is common knowledge that hemoglobin (the red pigment in our blood) carries oxygen from the air in our lungs to be used as energy by our cells. What is maybe less well known is that chlorophyll (the green pigment in plants) does the exact same thing for plant cells AND has a very similar structure to the hemoglobin molecule. If you look at the molecule structure of chlorophyll you can see it carries oxygen (O). The difference between a hemoglobin molecule and a chlorophyll molecule is that the former has an iron atom at its centre and the latter has a magnesium atom.

"Chlorophyll is the pigment in plants within which photosynthesis takes place. It absorbs the vibrant sun energy and transforms it into plant energy. This energy is transferred directly to youwhen you eat chlorophyll-rich foods, such as green-leafed vegetables. [...] Chlorophyll is the blood of plants just as hemoglobin is the blood of the body. The difference between the two molecules is that chlorophyll is centered on magnesium while hemoglobin is centered on iron." p. 182 Sunfood Diet Success System, David Wolfe


You are confusing hemoglobin (the entire protein with 4 heme units) with heme - the compound with a similar structure as chlorophyll. Heme does not carry oxygen in the blood unless it is contained within the hemoglobin protein. Chlorophyll is not the "blood" of plants. It is used to capture light energy from the sun. It is not an oxygen transporter for the plant. The energy absorbed by the chlorophyll in the leaves is transferred by a somewhat complicated biochemical process. The net result is that the energy absorbed is used to convert CO2 to O2. That O2 is then respirated by the plants into the air. Chlorophyll has a completely different biological role from heme. The magnesium atom in the center (vs iron in heme) is crucial for its different function. I don't have a clue why David Wolfe would make these assertions that a high school biology student would know isn't accurate.


Also, regarding detoxifying heavy metals:
"...chlorophyll is one of the most important chelates in nature. It’s ability to bind to and remove toxic heavy metals such as mercury makes it an extremely powerful healer." - This information is all over the internet, this was from a quick google search from http://www.energiseforlife.com/wordpress/2009/02/11/health-benefits-of-liquid-chlorophyll/


Certainly the heme porphyrin structure can bind many types of metals including toxic heavy metals. The heme in our hemoglobin can do that as can the porphyrin of chlorophyll. But only if the metal (iron or magnesium) is removed from the center first. For one to conclude eating greens provides this detoxification you must accept that first the chlorophyll is absorbed intact, then it enters the blood stream, is transported to where the heavy metals are located, the magnesium atom comes out and then the heavy metal gets bound. I don't know if there is evidence for that. It is a lot to accept without evidence.



I believe the chlorophyll must be absorbed into our blood somehow since the health benefits of greens are widely know and accepted (even by the governments).


You attribute the health affects of eating greens to one chemical component out of thousands found in plants? How do you know this is due to that one molecule? Factor in other factors such as someone who is increasing their greens may also be doing many other things to improve their health such as losing weight, etc. Cause and affect attributed just to chlorophyll? This is not convincing.



Here is an MIT article on biophotons, entitled "The Emerging Field of Biophotonic Communication":
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/24425/

Wikipedia on biophotons (check out the history bit for scientist references whose work you can look into for more information):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biophoton


Thanks for the pointers. I admit I am ignorant of any of the data on biophotons. I will certainly do some more reading on this.



Incoherent nonsense is a bit harsh considering that you haven't read the book... and that you don't have a PhD in neurophysiology like the writer has.... Or do you?


My PhD is in Organic Chemistry. I do research in cancer biochemistry and also have a good foundation of the quantum physical description of atomic and molecular structure. The statement that subatomic particles like electrons somehow turn into protons and neutrons and then proteins are made is completely incoherent nonsense.

There are a lot of good reasons to embrace raw foods and healthy lifestyles. I find it disconcerting that there is so much misinformation being spread around to encourage it. It seems some of this is simply made up because it sounds good. We could really sway people's ideas about raw foods and even the benefits of chlorophyll if we would focus on what we know is factual based on repeatable testable evidence.

[MysticTree]

The statement that subatomic particles like electrons somehow turn into protons and neutrons and then proteins are made is completely incoherent nonsense. But as crazy statements go ... you gotta love it for its way-out craziness before despairing of common sense.


There are a lot of good reasons to embrace raw foods and healthy lifestyles. I find it disconcerting that there is so much misinformation being spread around to encourage it.

We could really sway people's ideas about raw foods and even the benefits of chlorophyll if we would focus on what we know is factual based on repeatable testable evidence.
I agree totally. It seems that a raw food guru only has to make a statement and claim that it is backed by "real science" and people go around repeating it without any of the so-called real science ever being revealed. It's bad for the raw movement and it's bad for science that these things happen.

I'm not a chemist but I took chemistry up to first year university in so far as it was needed for my nursing degree - which I dropped out of in the first year incidentally - and much of what is often said is, as you say, totally without common sense let alone basic scientific foundation.

Btw, my ex-brother-in-law is in your field of work I wonder if you know him - Martienssen - say hi to him if you do. I haven't seen him for years and years.

[Ucat]

Hi thanks for your response, it's very interesting.

I will try to find time to respond tonight, now I have to go to work... But just a few quick questions to start with...



I would rather have repeatable testable evidence to support my beliefs rather than believing something just because I want to. I would trust peer-reviewed scientific papers over lack of evidence.

I appreciate this but do you agree that a lot of science has been corrupted by financial interests and test results get distorted? Just out of interest....



Actually, I do know how hemoglobin transports oxygen. The four heme units bound in the hemoglobin protein bind to O2 (an oxygen molecule) at the iron center. The metal is critical for this process. Magnesium does not bind oxygen in the same way. Thus my question as to how chlorophyll could possibly be doing it.

So why does chlorophyll structure show an oxygen atom in it?


You attribute the health affects of eating greens to one chemical component out of thousands found in plants? How do you know this is due to that one molecule? Factor in other factors such as someone who is increasing their greens may also be doing many other things to improve their health such as losing weight, etc. Cause and affect attributed just to chlorophyll? This is not convincing.

I'm about to write an article on chlorophyll but meanwhile it seems that since the common factor between all the green plants is the green colour (chlorophyll) it seems common-sensical that it is the colour itself that has something to do with the health benefits. Unless if chlorophyll always exists together with some other nutrient which causes these good effects.


My PhD is in Organic Chemistry. I do research in cancer biochemistry and also have a good foundation of the quantum physical description of atomic and molecular structure. The statement that subatomic particles like electrons somehow turn into protons and neutrons and then proteins are made is completely incoherent nonsense.

Again, I would invite you to read the book ;) As far as I know our knowledge of subatomic particles is still in its infancy. I have a feeling that a lot of conventional biological and chemical (and nutritional) knowledge is about to be turned on its head! After all, many good scientists in the past have been discredited by the established canon.

Another question, since you work with cancer, are you aware of cell respiration and the claims that cells that don't have enough oxygen turn cancerous? And that getting them oxygenated may be a cure? Also, what do you think of the claims that lots of the research done in the name of cancer charities (or in the name of cancer in general) is corrupt and distorted, serving the wrong ends? One more question (I can't help it, I'm curious!): Do you believe there are any natural cures for cancer (because I believe there are tons of them)?

Thanks and have a good day!

_____________________________
www.cheap-health-revolution.com

[MysticTree]

So why does chlorophyll structure show an oxygen atom in it?



lots of thing have oxygen atoms in their molecular structure. That doesn't mean they transport oxygen and "deliver" it where it's needed. It just means they have one or more oxygen atoms as part of their structure. Carbon monoxide for example - since we are talking about oxygen and blood is something you don't want because it prevents oxygen being transported in the blood. It still has an oxygen atom in it.



I'm about to write an article on chlorophyll but meanwhile it seems that since the common factor between all the green plants is the green colour (chlorophyll) it seems common-sensical that it is the colour itself that has something to do with the health benefits. Unless if chlorophyll always exists together with some other nutrient which causes these good effects.

Do you realise what you have said? You've said all green plants are green! I don't think you need to write an article that states that; we know that already. There are lots of non-green plant-based foods that are health giving. Are they good for us because they don't have chlorophyll?

I'm not saying that chlorophyll is not good for us (or that it is) but you have to be careful what you correlate. Take potatoes for example. Edible when they have been kept in the dark but toxic if the tubers turn green (chlorophyll) after exposure to light.

[Ucat]

Do you realise what you have said? You've said all green plants are green! I don't think you need to write an article that states that; we know that already. There are lots of non-green plant-based foods that are health giving. Are they good for us because they don't have chlorophyll?

Yes that's what I meant. That all greens are good for you and all greens have chlorophyll, so there is a clear link.

The article will discuss more specific reasons why chlorophyll is considered to be good for you (including the oxygen carrying debate). It will draw material from scientists, health professionals and ALSO from individual testimonies, soon including mine since I am starting to experiment on high levels of greens and logging the results in my blog.

The website's main purpose is to record my 7-100-day trials on raw food and many other health practices which are affordable to all. And also to record what brings results and what doesn't. It is not in any way a scientifically valid experiment. It is a blog, after all ;)

__________________________________________
www.cheap-health-revolution.com

[Ucat]

Take potatoes for example. Edible when they have been kept in the dark but toxic if the tubers turn green (chlorophyll) after exposure to light.

Fair point but it doesn't mean that it is the chlorophyll that is toxic.

[Ucat]

lots of thing have oxygen atoms in their molecular structure. That doesn't mean they transport oxygen and "deliver" it where it's needed.

Thanks for you answer. I agree that it doesn't necessarily mean that. But can you prove that it does NOT do that?

Also, it depends on how you define ' transport' when discussing cells transporting atoms/ nutrients. I will look into this a bit more later, now my lunch break is dissolving fast...

Also, if the chlorophyll can be broken down by our bodies, it would seem possible that the oxygen atom(s) can be utilised?

[MysticTree]

But can you prove that it does NOT do that?

I'm not trying to prove anything but making assumptions isn't proving something.



Also, if the chlorophyll can be broken down by our bodies, it would seem possible that the oxygen atom(s) can be utilised?

Oxidisation is one of the things we are told to avoid. That is why people are so keen on anti-oxidants in foods. Oxygen for cell respiration "gets there via the lungs" - not via the digestive tract.

[Ucat]

Hi MysticTree,

What I wrote before:

" Also, if the chlorophyll can be broken down by our bodies, it would seem possible that the oxygen atom(s) can be utilised?"

Your response:


Oxidisation is one of the things we are told to avoid. That is why people are so keen on anti-oxidants in foods. Oxygen for cell respiration "gets there via the lungs" - not via the digestive tract.

This is from wikipedia (under 'magnesium in biology'):
"Green vegetables such as spinach provide magnesium because of the abundance of chlorophyll molecules which contain the ion."

>>> So, if chlorophyll in fact provides magnesium for the body, it must mean that the molecule does get broken down in our body so the oxygen atom will be available.

[MysticTree]

Hi MysticTree,

What I wrote before:

" Also, if the chlorophyll can be broken down by our bodies, it would seem possible that the oxygen atom(s) can be utilised?"

Your response:



This is from wikipedia (under 'magnesium in biology'):
"Green vegetables such as spinach provide magnesium because of the abundance of chlorophyll molecules which contain the ion."

>>> So, if chlorophyll in fact provides magnesium for the body, it must mean that the molecule does get broken down in our body so the oxygen atom will be available.

I didn't say it didn't get broken down and I didn't say it didn't get used but you have to know what the body does with that oxygen before you can say that it is either good or bad. Oxygen obtained via the respiratory tract is our main source. It would seem likely that it is the only source we need otherwise we wouldn't breathe so much of it out again unused.

When we exercise we take in a deal more oxygen and we produce more free radicals/radicals than usual during that time. The body combats this by producing more anti-oxidants. I have never seen it stated that we need or indeed should try to obtain oxygen from our foods.

[Ucat]

...you have to know what the body does with that oxygen before you can say that it is either good or bad. Oxygen obtained via the respiratory tract is our main source.

I think these two statements are pretty obvious ;)

[Ucat]

Oxidisation is one of the things we are told to avoid.

"Oxidation is a chemical reaction that uses oxygen to burn our food and release energy (ATP). It's by-products are called free radicals." - p. 206, Tonya Zavasta, Quantum Eating

[Ucat]

Actually, I do know how hemoglobin transports oxygen. The four heme units bound in the hemoglobin protein bind to O2 (an oxygen molecule) at the iron center. The metal is critical for this process. Magnesium does not bind oxygen in the same way. Thus my question as to how chlorophyll could possibly be doing it.

This is what it says about magnesium in Wikipedia: "Magnesium is a chemical element with the symbol Mg, atomic number 12, and common oxidation number +2. It is an alkaline earth metal and the eighth most abundant element in the Earth's crust ...."

So magnesium is a metal as well.

Also, it seems that Mg2+ ions and O2– ions are able to hold together by ionic bonds.

[MysticTree]

it's the eight most abunbundant in the earth's crust but only about 1% of our blood is made up of it.

Go have a chat with someone who can explain what chemicals can and can't do with each other because I think that will help you more than can be typed here.

[MysticTree]

"Oxidation is a chemical reaction that uses oxygen to burn our food and release energy (ATP). It's by-products are called free radicals." - p. 206, Tonya Zavasta, Quantum Eating

Interesting. Have you looked into this further? It might help to have a better understanding of ATP.
I think you mean hydrolysis not oxididisation.

[Ucat]

Good morning!


it's the eight most abunbundant in the earth's crust but only about 1% of our blood is made up of it.

This seems irrelevant to the conversation, what's your point?


Go have a chat with someone who can explain what chemicals can and can't do with each other because I think that will help you more than can be typed here.

Are you referring to ionic bonds here? And the fact that I suggested Mg2+ ions and O2– ions could be held together by ionic bonds?

___________________________________
www.cheap-health-revolution.com

[Ucat]

Interesting. Have you looked into this further? It might help to have a better understanding of ATP.
I think you mean hydrolysis not oxididisation.

No, I don't meant hydrolysis, I mean oxidation... Intracellular respiration.

Yes I have looked into it further :)

_____________________________________
www.cheap-health-revolution.com

[MysticTree]

Write your article but run it past a scientist before you publish it for the sake of veracity.

[Ucat]

Write your article but run it past a scientist before you publish it for the sake of veracity.

You're quite bossy! Hug :D

[MysticTree]

You're quite bossy! Hug :D

please don't hug when you don't like me for goodness sake.

[Ucat]

I like you! You've given me lots of good advice in the past on this forum. I just don't think I need a permission to write an article... I meant it as a joke, I didn't mean to offend...

[MysticTree]

I wasn't giving you permission. I was just allowing that this conversation is going nowhere.

[Ucat]

Just tying some loose ends here... to properly answer some of the questions that were thrown at me in this conversation...


Are there studies that show chlorophyll is absorbed by the gut intact? How does chlorophyll transport oxygen? This makes no sense based on the biology and chemistry of chlorophyll.

Here is a study that shows that the blood oxygenation levels increased in people after they ingested wheatgrass juice (note, not necessarily due to chlorophyll itself):

M.C. Handzel, J.C. Sibert, T. Harvey, H. Deshmukh & C.C. Chambers: Monitoring the Oxygenation of Blood During Exercise After Ingesting Wheatgrass Juice. The Internet Journal of Alternative Medicine. 2010 Volume 8 Number 1
(Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Mercyhurst College, etc.)

http://www.ispub.com/journal/the-internet-journal-of-alternative-medicine/volume-8-number-1/monitoring-the-oxygenation-of-blood-during-exercise-after-ingesting-wheatgrass-juice.html

"Though only by a small amount, participants sustained more oxygen (an average of 0.31%) during their wheatgrass trial exercise than they did during the control trial exercise. The data and statistics verify that wheatgrass increased blood oxygenation during exercise. [...] ... participants managed an average of 0.26% more blood oxygen during the recovery period. The data and statistics verify that wheatgrass juice increased blood oxygenation during oxygen recovery. [...] This study indicates that this natural pharmaceutical aids in blood oxygenation when the body is depleted of oxygen."

Note that the the reported increase in blood oxygenation is very low but also, that the amount of wheatgrass juice ingested by each subject in this study was very low (2 ounces of liquid = roughly 1/4 cup).

I'm still hoping that GreginND will come back to give his final comments on some of the topics raised in this conversation....

Whether chlorophyll itself carries oxygen or not, there seems to be lots of indication that it somehow helps red blood cells to carry more oxygen, or even increases the red blood cell count to enable blood carry oxygen more efficiently.

"Chlorophyll is identical to your hemoglobin except for the center atom. Dr. Robert O. Young's, at the pH Miracle Living Center in San Diego, California suggests, "as one increases their consumption of chlorophyll from green foods and green drinks the quality and quantity of the red blood cells improve. This can be noted on a CBC [complete blood count] medical test as the red blood cell count increases and the hemoglobin increases to a healthy range. Liquid chlorophyll and chlorophyllin can be added to any water or green drink to improve the concentration of this powerful blood building compound."

For example, this article on the Hippocrates Health Intitute's website references various pieces of research to this effect:

"Verdel first suggested the chemical similarity between hemoglobin and chlorophyll in 1855.(1) The similarity was specifically demonstrated in the early 1920s.

"Over the following twenty years, much research was done on interconvertibility of the two substances in the body. While the process isn’t quite as simple as substituting the magnesium molecule in chlorophyll with an iron molecule to turn it into hemoglobin, there is evidence of the blood-building characteristics of chlorophyll-rich foods. Studies supporting this correlation date as far back as the 1920s.

"1926: Research suggested a relationship between the chlorophyll component pheophytin and hemoglobin generation.(2)

"1933: Studies indicated that feeding chlorophyll-rich foods to rats triggered the regeneration of red blood cells.(3) Researchers demonstrated that this effect was not due to the iron or copper in the green foods.

"1934: Dr. Rothemund discovered that porphyrins from chlorophyll stimulated the synthesis of red blood cells in a variety of animals when fed in small doses.(9)

"1936: Drs. Hughes and Latner performed a study involving anemic rabbits. They fed the rabbits several doses and forms of chlorophyll. The doctors found that extremely small doses of purified chlorophyll or large doses of “a crude chlorophyll extract” produced “a very favorable effect on hemoglobin regeneration.” The researchers went on to suggest, “the chlorophyll is acting as a physiological stimulant of the bone marrow and is not really concerned with the actual chemistry of regeneration of the porphyrin.”(10) This study shows that chlorophyll found in food or very small purified amounts of chlorophyll may stimulate the synthesis of red blood cells in the bone marrow.

"1936: Dr. Arthur Patek conducted a study in which fifteen patients with iron-deficiency anemia were fed different amounts of chlorophyll along with iron. Iron alone had already been shown to reverse this condition, but Patek demonstrated that when chlorophyll and iron were given together, the number of red blood cells and the level of blood hemoglobin increased faster than with iron alone. As stated by Dr. Patek, “This study may serve to encourage the use of a diet ample in greenstuffs and protein foods, for it must be that over a long space of time favorably nutritious elements are absorbed which aid the blood reserve and which furnish building stones for the heme pigments necessary to the formation of hemoglobin.”(11)

"1970: Research indicates that some porphyrins (ringed structures in heme and chlorophyll) stimulate the synthesis of globin (the protein portion of the hemoglobin molecule). This could partially explain the effect of chlorophyll on hemoglobin synthesis.(12)"

Use this link:
http://www.hippocratesinst.org/archives/113-well-being/520-chlorophyll
...to get the references for the original sources of the above studies.

Ok this does not prove that chlorophyll carries oxygen in the human blood but it is a pretty strong indication that chlorophyll at least HELPS carry oxygen in the human blood.

Also, the first piece of research referenced here shows that chlorophyll can be digested by the human body to a degree that has effects on our blood.

_____________________________
www.cheap-health-revolution.com

[Ucat]

There are a lot of good reasons to embrace raw foods and healthy lifestyles. I find it disconcerting that there is so much misinformation being spread around to encourage it. It seems some of this is simply made up because it sounds good. We could really sway people's ideas about raw foods and even the benefits of chlorophyll if we would focus on what we know is factual based on repeatable testable evidence.

I'm curious as to what misinformation do you think there is? So far I haven't encountered much, apart from companies trying to sell so-called health products which are not, in fact, healthful.

I think what is often more tragic is the level of corruption there is in science... Although I do have a lot of respect for genuine seekers of truth, including, of course, many critically thinking scientists.

But tragically, there is, for whatever reason, also much discrediting of good, non-orthodox scientists and nutritionists.

[Ucat]

There are lots of non-green plant-based foods that are health giving. Are they good for us because they don't have chlorophyll? I'm not saying that chlorophyll is not good for us (or that it is) but you have to be careful what you correlate. Take potatoes for example. Edible when they have been kept in the dark but toxic if the tubers turn green (chlorophyll) after exposure to light.

"The reality is that green potatoes contain high levels of a toxin, solanine, which can cause nausea, headaches and neurological problems.

"Potatoes naturally produce small amounts of solanine as a defense against insects, but the levels increase with prolonged exposure to light and warm temperatures.

"The green color is actually caused by high levels of chlorophyll, which by itself is harmless. But it is also a sign that levels of solanine, which is produced at the same time as chlorophyll, have increased as well."

from a New York Times article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/03/health/nutrition/03real.html?ex=1341115200&en=c9e6ec59628f3596&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[Ucat]

The statement that subatomic particles like electrons somehow turn into protons and neutrons and then proteins are made is completely incoherent nonsense.

So what do you think proteins are ultimately made of if not electrons, proteins and neutrons?

"Free neutrons decay by emission of an electron and an electron antineutrino to become a proton, a process known as beta decay. [...] ...inside a nucleus, protons can also transform into a neutron via inverse beta decay. [...] The transformation of a proton to a neutron inside of a nucleus is also possible through electron capture. [...] An article published in 2007 featuring a model-independent analysis concluded that the neutron has a negatively charged exterior, a positively charged middle, and a negative core.[14] In a simplified classical view, the negative "skin" of the neutron assists it to be attracted to the protons with which it interacts in the nucleus. However, the main attraction between neutrons and protons is via the nuclear force, which does not involve charge."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron

"...consider that a proton can become a neutron by capturing an electron. But the electron seems to disappear. It causes an up quark to become a down quark which makes the proton a neutron. Electrons can be produced by neutron decay when a down quark becomes and up quark producing a proton with the release of an electron (and a neutrino)."

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=66459

"-From your wiki reference on Pair production:
"Pair production refers to the creation of an elementary particle and its antiparticle, usually from a photon (or another neutral boson. Now a neutron is not an elementary particle, neither the proton."

So if neutrons can decay to become neutrons and electrons, it seems plausible that electrons and neutrons could be combined to make protons.

David Jubb was saying that in photosynthesis photons are transformed into electrons. Those could then be combined in a complex process which has something to do with the Krebs Cycle. Eventually, the mitochondria make proteins.

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=235921

"Protein biosynthesis is the process in which all cells build or manufacture proteins. The term is sometimes used to refer only to protein translation but more often it refers to a multi-step process, beginning with amino acid synthesis..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_biosynthesis#Amino_acid_synthesis

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www.cheap-health-revolution.com

[MysticTree]

"The reality is that green potatoes contain high levels of a toxin, solanine, which can cause nausea, headaches and neurological problems.

"Potatoes naturally produce small amounts of solanine as a defense against insects, but the levels increase with prolonged exposure to light and warm temperatures.

"The green color is actually caused by high levels of chlorophyll, which by itself is harmless. But it is also a sign that levels of solanine, which is produced at the same time as chlorophyll, have increased as well."

from a New York Times article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/03/health/nutrition/03real.html?ex=1341115200&en=c9e6ec59628f3596&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

I know why they are toxic. I've been growing them for 30+ years.

[MysticTree]

So what do you think proteins are ultimately made of if not electrons, proteins and neutrons? Exactly the same stuff, if you are to be believed, as green potatoes.

I'm dropping out of this conversation.

[Bihaku]

At Whole Foods they sell Raw Green Powder mixes.

I am kind of wary of people saying that food is "alive" unless you just snapped your spinach out of the ground like a second ago, I think most foods, even raw bought in grocery stores in the "dying" process. I mean, the average fruit or vegetable produce has gone from farm to your grocery stand in a week to a week and a half. Plus we don't know how long the food been sitting in the store until you decided to purchase it. Doesn't sound like alive to me.

[MysticTree]

I am kind of wary of people saying that food is "alive" unless you just snapped your spinach out of the ground like a second ago I know where you are coming from but I guess dying is better than dead already.

[jrank001]

Wow! What a thread. And I really didn't get a good answer to the original question.

[MysticTree]

I think there were a few answers in there ... powder is never going to be as good as fresh.

powder tastes fairly unpleasant so you might as well learn to like the veggies

[Ucat]

Wow! What a thread. And I really didn't get a good answer to the original question.

Sorry to have hijacked your thread ! The conversation badly veered off topic....

Personally, I think using green powders while on juice fast should work fine. Did you try mixing greens with fruit?

[jrank001]

That's OK. Yes I did mix some stuff. It's OK.

[Vrindavan]

The answer is yes.

At least it is good for you when you are away from juicers/blenders.