View Full Version : Before and after sex?
Rawhoneybee
07-06-2011, 06:06 PM
This may be random and maybe not the right forum to post this question on...BUT...
To all you raw women, have your organs during sex become significantly more intense?
I've been 100% raw for a bit now and wondered if it was just me or if this was normal for other raw foodists?
May be personal, but what the hey.
BeingK8
07-06-2011, 08:48 PM
Did you mean have our organs become more intense or our orgasms? LOL! ;-)
Rawhoneybee
07-06-2011, 11:14 PM
Haha orgasms.
My phone loves to auto-correct.
Draginvry
07-07-2011, 06:37 AM
Did you mean have our organs become more intense
Sounds like fun. I want some more intense organs.
BeingK8
07-07-2011, 09:56 AM
Sounds like fun. I want some more intense organs.
That's what I was thinking! What would happen if my heart was more intense? my lungs? How long could I hold my breath under water? What about my liver? Detox in half the time! LOL!
Draginvry
07-07-2011, 12:39 PM
How long could I hold my breath under water?
Ten minutes, at least :dance:
One word, folks:
'Maca'
;)
BeingK8
07-07-2011, 10:11 PM
One word, folks:
'Maca'
;)
Reeeally? I have not used it yet. It's all over the forums and in so many recipes and stuff, but I haven't ever purchased it. Now I'm intrigued!
You know, there's way too much hyperbole and hard-sell for a thousand and one different 'superfoods' in the raw community, BUT Maca really does affect the hormones positively. I take it for adrenal support but it certainly affects the sex hormones too, of that you may be certain.
You can get it all over the place but I particularly like Navitas Naturals' Gelatinized version. It's reasonable value, quality is top-notch, and it strikes a nice balance between standard maca and very concentrated extracts. Having said that, you may prefer, from a philosophical standpoint, to go with standard completely-raw maca. Either way, you'll get the effects.
If you take a heaped teaspoon once or twice per day (best with food but do as you please), you'll have a smile on your face within a fortnight. I've found a nice side effect is that it makes my head hair grow thicker. I find that particularly interesting since TCM points to a link between kidney/adrenal health and hair growth. Maybe that's why maca is affecting my hair growth or maybe it's just that it's nutrient-rich (in terms of nutrients relevant to hair growth, it's fairly rich in sulphur, silicon and (I think) zinc). I can't go too heavy on my maca because it's a crucifer and thus rich in thiols (not ideal for someone like me with mercury-intoxication), but in small doses, my body definitely approves of maca. I've been around natural foods/natural health for several years now (as I know you have, too, Kate) and consequently I'm nobody's fool with supplements and superfoods - Maca is one of the very few substances I've been genuinely impressed with, ever since I first started using it. It actually does what it's claimed to do, and is not deleterious to wellbeing like cacao etc. can be.
.
jacsam
07-08-2011, 10:25 AM
Arky, I'm intrigued with what you had to say about maca helping with hair growth on your head. You know how sometimes women have thinning of their hair, usually on the top of their head.....do you know if it helps with that or does it just help your hair that you already have get larger meaning thicker. I have been looking for something to help women that have their hair start thinning on top ( I guess you could say they start balding). I know it has to do with hormones. I'm interested to hear what you have to say about this.
alopecia...it's a surprisingly complex topic.
BEFORE I got into natural health, I started going thin on top (I'm male, by the way). At that time, I did what most men do - panicked and started desperately looking around for anything and everything I could find to prevent the inevitable. I quickly realised that more than 99% of stuff on the net and on the market is total rubbish and totally disingenuous.
At this point, I found myself at an important crossroads:
1) Take the path of denial, which means hats, comb-overs, pony tails, wigs, electrostatic spray-thickeners... basically anything but admit to myself or others that I was going bald.
2) Grow the hell up and just shave my head and get on with my life.
I chose the 2nd option and have never looked back. I pity those men who choose the 1st option and live their entire lives looking in the mirror and fearing that their 'secret' will be found out by members of the public.
Now, where women are concerned, I want to make it clear that the above opinions do NOT apply. I have genuine compassion for women who face the difficulty of alopecia. I learned, from my initial research on male baldness that there are many different possible causes, some of which include thyroid insufficiency, DHT, follicular inflammation (may have an auto-immune component), iron deficiency, EFA or saturated fat deficiency, general malnutrition (may have a systemic inflammation and/or intestinal parasitic basis), intestinal dysbiosis, etc.
It's notable that many men use Nizoral ('Ketoconazole') shampoo not for its anti-dandruff properties but rather in an attempt to reduce follicular inflammation and thus improve hair growth.
On an unwisely-structured raw vegan diet, it is not uncommon for iron deficiency to occur, and for intake of saturated fats to be below par. Both of these may affect hair growth.
I didn't do research on female alopecia.
Speaking personally, I strongly suspect that my own alopecia has at least some (significant) basis in my lead and mercury intoxication, which I now realise goes back several decades (although it peaked about 10 years ago, with an extended round of vaccinations). Mercury is able to induce systemic inflammation, auto-immunity, malabsorption, intestinal dysbiosis, derangement of mineral transport, thyroid suppression...the list goes on and on and is shockingly long and wide-ranging. Actually, severe mercury poisoning can lead to clumps of hair falling out by the handful.
The fact that I've recently noticed maca improving the thickness of my hair is by virtue of the fact that although I've used maca sporadically for a number of years, I've only lately been disciplined in consuming 2 - 3 heaped teaspoons per day every day because I've been chelating the metals from my body and this places great stress on the adrenals, something maca is known to assist in supporting the health of.
I am not implying that maca is leading to re-growth of receded hair, just that what hair I still have is growing thicker. I particularly notice this change because I shave my head and thus changes in 'stiffness' of the stubble are very easy to detect. I've noticed this happen before when I was consuming lots of seaweed plus BioSil (orthosilicic acid). The Biosil, in particular, stiffens hair and makes it glossier. The seaweed is, of course, rich in minerals and I'm sure my thyroid wasn't complaining about the iodine content, either.
As I said, I don't know if the maca is affecting my hair from a hormonal-balancing standpoint or from a general nutritive standpoint, or something else. I guess it's probably a combination of a number of factors.
If one is suffering from alopecia, and it is bothersome, then the first thing I'd say is to get your psychological health in order - learn from the outset to accept that the chances of regrowth are slim - psychologically resisting this will only lead to mental health issues if taken too far. This takes psychological maturity and is a great life lesson if one is open to learning it, in spite of the pain at the time of learning.
Psychological considerations aside, question whether you have any symptoms of hormonal imbalance or systemic inflammation, or intestinal malabsorption etc. There may be clues there. In my case, mercury is capable of inducing all three of these things, though I admit I haven't noticed any obvious hormonal issues other than adrenal imbalance.
That's about as much as I can think of on the topic at this moment. Sorry I'm not more of an expert on the topic of alopecia, be it male or female.
Maca is relatively cheap to try, generally well-tolerated, nutrient-dense, and basically worth a shot if you have alopecia or general nutritional deficiencies or hormonal imbalances.
Lastly, it's worth bearing in mind that head hair is actually primarily a 'waste product', rather than a specifically-important 'structure' of the body, as most people assume. Since it is a waste product, the body excretes all manner of junk through the hair. Just ask the lab technician who ran analysis on my hair sample for heavy metals! Aside from seeking answers to heavy metal issues, this process of analysing hair samples should be a clue in itself - what scenario might one reasonably expect if the body is full of toxic residues and byproducts? Some of these will likely end up making their way through the hair follicles. Hair follicles need to be healthy in order to function properly and one can't reasonably expect hair follicles to perform optimally if they're being forced to convey all manner of nasty, noxious substances that potentially damage their cellular integrity, or lead to the immune system perceiving their presence in the cell as necessitating immune response (which, over the longterm may take the form of chronic inflammation). Some people find they experience improved hair growth after using clay 'mud-packs' in their scalp, since these draw toxins out of the follicles.
I forgot to mention that I'll never use propecia or rogaine as these mess with the prostate amongst other things. Not sure about female equivalent but some research does note a relationship between health of the prostate and male hair loss. Pumpkin seeds would appear to fit the bill, along with nettle root, but I'm sensitive to pumpkin seeds due to mercury impeding my livers ability to handle tryptophan (bananas are also out of the question for me now, for the same reason)
BeingK8
07-08-2011, 01:49 PM
I'm toally sold now! Thanks, Arky! I always love your posts because you're a treasure trove of not just info, but empirical info. I always want to know what people's experiences are.
Thanks Kate; speaking of empirical experience, I'd be interested to hear back from you about how you respond to maca (you can spare me the bedtime details, just the daytime stuff is fine! ;) )
Mary Jane
07-08-2011, 02:21 PM
Thank you for all of the great information. BTW.... I off to get some macca too!
BeingK8
07-08-2011, 09:06 PM
Thanks Kate; speaking of empirical experience, I'd be interested to hear back from you about how you respond to maca (you can spare me the bedtime details, just the daytime stuff is fine! ;) )
Sure thing! I'm all about it! And the hair thing was one of the big clinchers. I've always had nice, thick hair, but in the last, say...year or 2, it seems to be getting thinner in one spot in particular that makes it lay funny. I mean, my hair was always one of those things that people complimented me on and envied. It's not too bad yet, but at only 35, I don't want it to continue!
I started at 24.
Do check you iron levels.
Also consider if you have any other niggling health issues/symptoms which you've not yet found the cause for (e.g. any liver or gastrointestinal issues?).
The maca will do a lot to help level hormone levels if they're out of whack.
Incidentally, after you mentioned DHT with regard to female alopecia, I spent just few minutes googling yesterday and you may find the following of interest, even though it is primarily aimed at men and has its critics:
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1551878
jacsam
07-09-2011, 09:56 PM
Thanks Arky.....I do herbal work with people and even though I've done alot of research of this topic.....I haven't really found anything that helped significantly with hair regrowth. I had never heard anyone mention Maca for thicker hair. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Thanks Arky.....I do herbal work with people and even though I've done alot of research of this topic.....I haven't really found anything that helped significantly with hair regrowth. I had never heard anyone mention Maca for thicker hair. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Ahh, nice to have a practising herbalist here, we are honoured!
May I ask, then, what your findings have been, for better or worse, with:
* Ho Shou Wu / Fo ti
* Horsetail / shavegrass
Thanks
jacsam
07-11-2011, 02:14 PM
I hate to disappoint you but I have never used Ho Shou Wu/Fo ti, not for any other reason than I just haven't used it. I know there's alot of talk about it now and then but I can't help you much with that one because I have no experience with it. On the other hand I love horsetail and have had many people love the following calcium combination, which is very high in horsetail:
6 -parts horsetail grass
3 -parts oat straw
4 -parts comfrey root
1 -part lobelia
Buy these herbs powdered and then put them into capsules.....people usually start off with 3 capsules 3-4 times a day. You will definately see your hair and nails grow much better. It is an incredible calcium formula. So basically, I love horsetail but then I love comfrey and lobelia too......and alot of other herbs not in this formula.
BeingK8
07-11-2011, 03:53 PM
I started at 24.
Do check you iron levels.
Also consider if you have any other niggling health issues/symptoms which you've not yet found the cause for (e.g. any liver or gastrointestinal issues?).
The maca will do a lot to help level hormone levels if they're out of whack.
Incidentally, after you mentioned DHT with regard to female alopecia, I spent just few minutes googling yesterday and you may find the following of interest, even though it is primarily aimed at men and has its critics:
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1551878
I'm lost here...
check my iron levels if I want to take maca or if hair loss seems to be an issue???
consider maca if there are other niggling issues?
Not entirely sure if anything other than the "started at 24" was a reply to me personally or not.
I'm lost here...
check my iron levels if I want to take maca or if hair loss seems to be an issue???
consider maca if there are other niggling issues?
Not entirely sure if anything other than the "started at 24" was a reply to me personally or not.
oops! Sorry for the ambiguity, yes it was all aimed at you, K8.
Yes, check iron levels if hair loss is an issue for you.
Consider maca as a worthwhile trial in any event. It's perfectly safe and covers a surprising number of bases. Of course, it's ability to promote endocrine balance relates not only to the adrenals but also the thyroid, and we all know healthy thyroid function is important for good hair growth
Wish I'd started taking maca (regularly) at 24! ;)
I hate to disappoint you but I have never used Ho Shou Wu/Fo ti, not for any other reason than I just haven't used it. I know there's alot of talk about it now and then but I can't help you much with that one because I have no experience with it. On the other hand I love horsetail and have had many people love the following calcium combination, which is very high in horsetail:
6 -parts horsetail grass
3 -parts oat straw
4 -parts comfrey root
1 -part lobelia
Buy these herbs powdered and then put them into capsules.....people usually start off with 3 capsules 3-4 times a day. You will definately see your hair and nails grow much better. It is an incredible calcium formula. So basically, I love horsetail but then I love comfrey and lobelia too......and alot of other herbs not in this formula.
Lobelia is darned hard to get hold of in the UK.
I do have horsetail - but I was under the impression it is somewhat toxic unless boiled for 10 minutes - am I labouring under a misapprehension on that point, then? Difficult to recall exactly, but I think I might possibly have picked up that impression from Paul Pitchford's 'Healing with Wholefoods' (which is an enjoyable, albeit inconsistent, read). I must say, I'd love to know I can just consume this herb without having to boil it every time. Bernard Jensen always used to say how valuable silicon is for the body (he invariably recommended oatstraw tea for supplemental silicon intake).
Back to the above formula, do you consider it to be high in calcium per se or rather high in silicon and thus supportive of good skeletal calcium matabolism? I honestly don't have a clue what the calcium content of those herbs is but I do know that oat straw and horsetail are particularly rich in silicon, and thus great for hair health. I know comfrey is great for helping bones knit and tissue to heal. (oops, we do seem to have drifted a bit off-topic, but at least the discussion is interesting! :) )
.
BeingK8
07-12-2011, 10:30 AM
oops! Sorry for the ambiguity, yes it was all aimed at you, K8.
Yes, check iron levels if hair loss is an issue for you.
Consider maca as a worthwhile trial in any event. It's perfectly safe and covers a surprising number of bases. Of course, it's ability to promote endocrine balance relates not only to the adrenals but also the thyroid, and we all know healthy thyroid function is important for good hair growth
Wish I'd started taking maca (regularly) at 24! ;)
Ahhh! I sort of suspect that, like most people who grew up and lived on S.A.D (or whatever you all call it over in the UK ...what DO YOU call it over there? LOL!), most of my levels are insufficient, you know? They can't be too ideal or I wouldn't be experiencing changes like that in my hair, joint aches, weight struggles, fatigue. I self-diagnosed adrenal burnout for SURE a few months ago. I'm still struggling with it - can't tell you how often I still give in to coffee and staying up way too late and stuff.
And thank goodness you posted on here again! I was trying and trying to remember what thread we were having this discussion on because I wanted to check out the link you suggested for maca but I could NOT for the life of me remember where it was. And I suppose it had a thing or two to do with the fact that our maca/hair loss convo has NOTHING to do with the thread title. LOL! I was so lost and just said, "oh well, if I am meant to know, it will come back up." Tada!
MysticTree
07-12-2011, 11:10 AM
what DO YOU call it over there? LOL!
I don't think we call it anything in particular although I just call it SAD cos it is sad.
Rawhoneybee, do you want to come back in and get this thread back on track?
I'm feeling a little guilty now at how far we've drifted off-topic! :D
.
MysticTree
07-12-2011, 01:02 PM
Rawhoneybee, do you want to come back in and get this thread back on track?
I'm feeling a little guilty now at how far we've drifted off-topic! :D
.
I think that people didn't really want to talk about their rawgasms.
...what DO YOU call it over there? LOL!
...McDonalds.
Next question? ;)
I think that people didn't really want to talk about their rawgasms.
Speak for yourself!! LOL
...experiencing changes like that in my hair, joint aches, weight struggles, fatigue. I self-diagnosed adrenal burnout for SURE a few months ago.
Joint aches...erm... lots of caffeic acid won't be helping that (perhaps you could neutralise at least some of the acid by including dandelion leaf or celery seed in your coffees?), but there may be something deeper causing systemic inflammation. As you know, I've chatted to various people on this board about possible causes of inflammation, during the past few months (e.g. http://rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?t=64495 ).
Weight struggles...mmm...thyroid, perhaps? I'm sure you've already thought about that but have you thought about it in conjunction with the adrenals? i.e. they're both part of the endocrine system...
..and, of course, the thyroid may play back into the hair thing. I suppose at least trying a bit of iodine/kelp wouldn't do any harm.
Funny how I seem to be drawn into many, many conversations lately that happen to run somewhat convergent with my own health issues and associated research. Almost like it was 'meant to be' in some way. :weird Weird, and I'm not a 'New-Ager' but neither am I unjustly in denial about it. So...at the risk of sounding like a darned broken record... :whisper have you had yourself tested for metals? They can screw up thyroid and adrenal function...and they can induce systemic inflammation... I KNOW, I KNOW, I sound like a broken record with metals lately, and I confess I'm therefore almost embarrassed to even suggest this, but all the same...here we are, discussing issues which, like it or not, DO potentially tally.
Your late nights are, of course, probably due more to caffeine and adrenal fluctuations more than anything else, but it is interesting to note that Hg-toxic individuals may typically be night owls (although that may be due to the disrupting effect of mercury upon the endocrine system, as already discussed). You'll find all this in Andy Cutler's books.
************************************************** **********************************
...Or maybe you've been anaemic and/or hypothyroid for some time, leading to a lack of 'get-up-and-go', and have then sought out caffeine to compensate, the caffeine then stressing the adrenals.
The joint inflammation might be due to straight liver congestion (e.g. stones due to poor previous diet, dietary inadequacy of taurine, glycine, lecithin or whatever, or due to liver overwhelm from some toxin other than heavy metals).
Also, bowel toxicity due to poor previous diet could tie in with liver difficulties, but I know from previous discussions with you that you're intimately familiar with bowel cleansing etc. so this seems unlikely.
Poor bowel function might not just result from poor diet but actually contribute to malabsorption of nutrients from your present-day healthy diet. Hair needs a good supply of nutrients just like any other part of the body. Interestingly, a healthy bowel with good balance of healthy flora is apparently able to yield large amounts of B-vitamins. B-vitamins are vital for good hair growth.
Another possible cause for the liver and inflammation issues could be intestinal or liver parasites, but then I'd be questioning why your immune system and bile were failing to reasonably fight parasites off...which (potentially, at least) goes back to heavy metals etc.
************************************************** **********************************
I'm still struggling with it - can't tell you how often I still give in to coffee and staying up way too late and stuff.
GRIN!
I was trying and trying to remember what thread we were having this discussion on because I wanted to check out the link you suggested for maca but I could NOT for the life of me remember where it was. ...I was so lost and just said, "oh well, if I am meant to know, it will come back up." Tada!
Yeah, funny how this universe works sometimes, isn't it? I'm not saying I actually DO believe in the manifestation side of 'New-Age' philosophies, but interesting things have happened along those lines during my lifetime, and I'm sure yours, too.
.
MysticTree
07-12-2011, 01:19 PM
Speak for yourself!! LOL
I think it is a very personal thing for a newbie to come on the forum and ask in their first post and perhaps that is why very few people answered the question.
BeingK8
07-12-2011, 07:59 PM
...McDonalds.
Next question? ;)
LOL!
Joint aches...erm... lots of caffeic acid won't be helping that (perhaps you could neutralise at least some of the acid by including dandelion leaf or celery seed in your coffees?), but there may be something deeper causing systemic inflammation. As you know, I've chatted to various people on this board about possible causes of inflammation, during the past few months (e.g. http://rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?t=64495 ).
Weight struggles...mmm...thyroid, perhaps? I'm sure you've already thought about that but have you thought about it in conjunction with the adrenals? i.e. they're both part of the endocrine system...
..and, of course, the thyroid may play back into the hair thing. I suppose at least trying a bit of iodine/kelp wouldn't do any harm.
Funny how I seem to be drawn into many, many conversations lately that happen to run somewhat convergent with my own health issues and associated research. Almost like it was 'meant to be' in some way. :weird Weird, and I'm not a 'New-Ager' but neither am I unjustly in denial about it. So...at the risk of sounding like a darned broken record... :whisper have you had yourself tested for metals? They can screw up thyroid and adrenal function...and they can induce systemic inflammation... I KNOW, I KNOW, I sound like a broken record with metals lately, and I confess I'm therefore almost embarrassed to even suggest this, but all the same...here we are, discussing issues which, like it or not, DO potentially tally.
Your late nights are, of course, probably due more to caffeine and adrenal fluctuations more than anything else, but it is interesting to note that Hg-toxic individuals may typically be night owls (although that may be due to the disrupting effect of mercury upon the endocrine system, as already discussed). You'll find all this in Andy Cutler's books.
************************************************** **********************************
...Or maybe you've been anaemic and/or hypothyroid for some time, leading to a lack of 'get-up-and-go', and have then sought out caffeine to compensate, the caffeine then stressing the adrenals.
The joint inflammation might be due to straight liver congestion (e.g. stones due to poor previous diet, dietary inadequacy of taurine, glycine, lecithin or whatever, or due to liver overwhelm from some toxin other than heavy metals).
Also, bowel toxicity due to poor previous diet could tie in with liver difficulties, but I know from previous discussions with you that you're intimately familiar with bowel cleansing etc. so this seems unlikely.
Poor bowel function might not just result from poor diet but actually contribute to malabsorption of nutrients from your present-day healthy diet. Hair needs a good supply of nutrients just like any other part of the body. Interestingly, a healthy bowel with good balance of healthy flora is apparently able to yield large amounts of B-vitamins. B-vitamins are vital for good hair growth.
Another possible cause for the liver and inflammation issues could be intestinal or liver parasites, but then I'd be questioning why your immune system and bile were failing to reasonably fight parasites off...which (potentially, at least) goes back to heavy metals etc.
.
Oh it does NOT surprise me that we are drawn into convos that deal with what we are addressing in ourselves, but then again, I AM a highly metaphysical girl! And yea, I DID think about adrenal fatigue, but I had NOT thought about thyroid in conjunction with adrenal stuff and I think you just won BINGO! I think that explains so much of it - my whole system is burnt out right now AND add in mercury toxicity? Holy hell do I KNOW I must be Hg toxic because ALL of my fillings (and I had MANY) were amalgams except the ones in front teeth and some of them were OLD. (I'm 35 and started getting fillings as a kid and just continued every so often for all those years). 2 years ago, all the metal was removed but sadly, (I did NOT know how bad this was), it was not done with Hg-safe techniques. So it all got stirred up and polluted me and I would suspect that it's related to the hair since it's the same time frame.
Keep forgetting about how adrenal burnout messes with your biorhythms because here we go again: it's 9pm my time and I had been DYING, dog-arsed tired all day and now I'm READY TO GO!!!! Just like freaking clockwork. I hate this.
And I did NOT know that Hg affected that stuff, but makes even more sense why it's such a major problem. All day I'll be telling myself that I'm going to bed early and I'm going to feel better because I'll sleep and then nightfall comes and I'm wide awake and having at it til 1 or 2 am.
I just don't know how to chelate Hg, I'm scared to mess with some options out there, and I figure, in time. Trust, continue becoming more raw, stay open and the answers will find me. They always do! Look at the things I've found through your contributions on here as a perfect example. I get the things I need to know or look into or the next steps I should take.
Oh...and inflammation? I can tell you straight up, that coffee I have so often? With conventional half & half. I'm still a casomorphein-aholic and I LOVE ME SOME CHEESE, too!!! And beers. In fact, I just txtd a friend back who asked if I wanted to go have a pint when he gets off work. Many of my issues are so obvious they're embarrassing!
LOL - wow! And to think I was embarrassed mentioning metals again.
I honestly didn't know you have / had amalgams, Kate.
Well, there's your answer, then, undoubtedly.
Lots of discussion re' metals in the following threads.
http://rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?t=65152
http://rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?p=661106#post661106
http://rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?p=661766#post661766
http://rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?p=661325#post661325
I certainly don't claim to know everything about metals but I know enough now to avoid dangerous options such as cilantro (NDF also incorporates cilantro, by the way) and to understand the importance of frequent dosing according to the 'kinetics' of each chelation substance. If you have any questions, I'll either answer them if I know the answer, or I'll point you in the direction of people who will know the answer. Mercury is dangerous stuff. One can really do oneself serious neurological harm by attempting to move mercury within and from the body without learning how to do it safely. Please don't underestimate that. Also, please understand that one should not begin chelation until ALL sources of mercury are eliminated - e.g. remaining amalgams etc. Neither should one begin chelation until one's adrenals have been brought up to a reasonable level of functioning because otherwise, the chelation process will likely result in severe adrenal crashing.
I'm here to help in any way I can, and/or to help you find help from others experienced in this area.
In the meantime, once you've read the above threads, please take a listen to the following podcast, which is very informative:
healthcentersofthefuture.com/DrCutler/DrCutler.mp3
Incidentally, Kate, I've already told you I'm Hg-intoxicated, so it might amuse you to know that I'm typing this (and just posted the above message) at 3:28am. I promised myself I'd get an early night tonight, yet here I am, typing to you.
You're not alone! LOL
This one's also somewhat relevant (though doesn't seem it at first):
http://rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?p=658939#post658939
and now, I really MUST get some sleep! :D
BeingK8
07-13-2011, 09:35 AM
Phew! That's a lot of reading so I don't know how soon I'll have a response, but I'm sure there will be one! Lemme get started! ;-)
BeingK8
07-13-2011, 04:54 PM
Okay, Arky, my head is spinning and that's all just way too much for me! LOL! Give it to me straight, dude. What do I DO?
I have all the amalgams GONE. How do I chelate? If it's in these impossibly long threads, ;-) do you happen to know where? I'm reading through and seeing way more info on what Hg does and how to know if it's your problem and stuff than I am worried about right now and every doggone one has MORE links and more links. You know a LOT of stuff about this! LOL!
Is there some place with a nice, succinct set of directions or a book that has them or what?
I'm not wasting money on a test. I don't need to. (I know you might possibly say that's foolish, but I'm SOOOO "metaphysical girl" that I say, I already know the answer and it's "YES, Kate! You are Hg-toxic and YES you will feel better when you get at least SOME of it out of you. So do it.")
Thanks for all your help, you're a peach!!! (Well, maybe not a peach...I'm allergic to those...something that I hope is related to the damn mercury!) LOL
OK, if you want the short version, then I'm going to have to make some statements without explaining them at the same time. Therefore, please don't misinterpret this brevity to mean that the statements are unsubstantiated dogmatic opinion. I can back up anything you wish to know more about.
OK...
I'm still going to recommend you get a hair test (DDI 'Hair Elements') because you may have more than mercury going on and that can influence how best to approach your chelation, although fundamentally, the process remains largely the same.
SIMPLY PUT:
Avoid natural chelation substances - they are insufficiently researched and thus their properties are not known accurately enough for them to be used safely (I can go as deep as you like on this, and I know people don't like being told not to use natural substances - after all, I'm one such person myself).
If you want to chelate mercury SAFELY, you will use Alpha Lipoic Acid, and possibly also DMSA or DMPS (DMPS requires a script).
All 3 of these substances have sufficient research to know their 'kinetics' - their rate of decline in the human bloodstream after ingestion.
The aim of SAFE chelation is to strive, at all costs, to maintain a relatively consistent level of the chelation substance(s) in the bloodstream, thus minimising the likelihood of redistribution of metals occurring within the body. One wants to chelate and excrete, not redistribute and fail to excrete (this isn't just unsuccessful; it can actually cause serious physiological and neurological damage in the process). That said, the honest truth is that there is no such thing as a chelation method which carries no risk whatsoever - fundamentally, we are talking about moving a profoundly neuro-toxic substance from the tissues, organs, and brain, into the bile or the urine for excretion. Without a magic wand available, this process of transporting such a toxic substance will, of course, always carry some inherent risk, just as crossing the road or driving a car does.
In practical terms, maintaining a relatively consistent level of the chelation substance(s) in the bloodstream means having to ingest ALA orally every 3hrs (that includes waking up at nightime, so we're talking about 8 evenly-spaced doses per 24 hours). With DMSA it's every 4 hours or less (many people find it better every 3 hours). DMPS is every 8 hours. If a dose is missed and these timeframes exceeded, one does not cheat and continue as soon as they remember. Instead, one must stop the round and wait a few days before beginning a new round, afresh.
If mercury is the only problem metal for you (please don't simply assume this), then you could chelate entirely with only ALA. However, if you also have metals such as lead, then you will also need to use DMSA or DMPS. More on this in the podcast I linked earlier in this thread.
DMSA and DMPS do not cross the blood-brain barrier to any significant extent. ALA does, hence ALA is essential when chelating mercury, although some people to not introduce ALA until they've reduced their non-brain bodily burden of mercury first, using DMSA or DMPS for several weeks or months.
Mercury, in particular, crosses the blood-brain barrier, which is why one has to be extremely careful they do not do anything to allow it to pass from organs, tissues, bloodstream into the brain. I can explain this in more detail but will refrain for now. Just know that cilantro stacks the odds very much against one's best interests in this particular respect, which is why you'd be wise to avoid it, although people will argue the toss about this.
Doses used for chelation are extremely small. Most start using DMSA and/or ALA at 6.25mg - 12.5mg per dose. It's always tempting to start with higher doses but if you don't respect mercury, it swiftly teaches respect in no uncertain terms, sometimes setting the process back many months. Almost everyone finds this out the hard way if they're arrogant about it.
Note that unless one gets these tiny doses professionally compounded at a compounding pharmacy, one will have to buy the smallest commercially-available dose they can find and then manually open the capsules and divide the contents into smaller doses themselves. I buy 50mg ALA and 25mg DMSA and split both of these into 12.5mg doses.
One does not chelate continuously - generally, the rule of thumb is approximately 72hours per 'round'.
Then one takes the same time period OFF. So, simplistically-put, one might chelate 72hrs on, 72hrs off, 72hrs on, 72hrs off, 72hrs on, 72hrs off, etc.
This procedure is the safest chelation method currently available, and was pioneered by Andrew Hall Cutler, an industrial chemist. He does have his critics (doesn't everyone?) but in my research no one has supplied a convincing argument that there is a safer approach. You will find plenty of doctors offering IV chelation (causes massive peaks and dips in chelation substance levels within the bloodstream, literally maximising the chances of harmful redistribution). You'll find plenty of naturopaths offering and selling cilantro chelation methods (NDF is popular), but although they are undoubtedly capable of aiding excretion of some mercury, these also put the patient at great risk of neural redistribution of mercury. I can provide deeper explanation of this if you wish.
The procedure is continued for anywhere between approx 18months and 8 years. There is wide variation regarding how much mercury is in each individuals body, the degree to which they are sensitive to its toxicity, how fast they are able to excrete it, and thus how long each individual may take to get healthy.
On average, you're looking at 1 - 3 or 4 years.
As previously mentioned, chelation places great strain on the adrenal glands, so in parallel with chelation with ALA etc., one must supplement to support the adrenals, but this is not as strictly regimented as the 'frequent-dosing' approach of the chelation.
Books:
1) Andrew Hall Cutler 'Amalgam Illness'
2) Andrew Hall Cutler 'Hair Test Interpretation'
They ARE WORTH their asking price. Even though they are unglamourously-published, you WILL be glad you made the investment in these two books, you have my word on that.
Some places do a deal on buying them simultaneously; e.g. mandimart.co.uk/books-by-andy-cutler-phd-38-c.asp
After you've obtained Cutler's books, an excellent memoir of mercury poisoning and chelation (using Cutler's 'Frequent-Dosing' method) which you would learn much from is Áine Ní Cheallaigh's 'Getting the Mercury Out' http://rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?p=661917#post661917 Áine is very approachable. If you feel you'd like to chat with her about the process, you can contact her via her blog: www.mercurystories.com but do bear in mind that her book covers her personal experiences of mercury intoxication and the chelation/recovery process in great detail, so it's really best to read that first before asking too many questions of her.
Any questions about the above, fire away, I'll help you in any way I can...
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BeingK8
07-14-2011, 10:20 AM
OMG, I am so discouraged now. I have insurance that will not cover the test or any of the scripts and the idea that this takes vigilant action over YEARS time is extremely depressing. Sadly, that's all I can even muster about it this morning. i am depressed and disappointed because it feels like the muscle tics and whacked-out sleep schedule, the memory loss, all of it, might just be my cross to bear because I'm not gonna be getting it fixed.
Sorry, I know how annoying it is when someone has this attitude. I think I feel like I just need to have it and go through the feeling to hopefully come out the other side. I'm just pissed and feeling hopeless, even if I am grateful for you, Arky.
And I did understand everything you said (including your disclaimer at the outset!) ;-) and I know it was so much to type out. I know it will help someone who is a position to be able to get access to the scripts and a doc that can actually help them.
OMG, I am so discouraged now. I have insurance that will not cover the test or any of the scripts
No, no, you misunderstood me.
The test is very cheap - only $90 all-in.
I don't know where in the world you are but in most states of the US, a script is only required for DMPS, and DMPS is merely optional for our purposes.
ALA is available in virtually any health food store you care to walk into (although it tends to be in insanely high doses because manufacturers and retailers are shamefully ignorant of the poweful chelation properties of ALA. In their ignorance, they just think it's an antioxidant substance and nothing more). I buy mine from the USA but could just as easily buy it in any health food store in the UK (albeit at a higher retail price). ALA is generally amazingly cheap!
DMSA is less widely available but nonetheless still fairly easy to get hold of, over the counter. I'm in the UK and buy mine from the USA and also from mandimart.co.uk. DMSA is quite expensive but still absolutely within reach, considering how tiny the amounts are that one requires to chelate with.
Remember that in relation to ALA and in relation to DMSA, we're generally talking about each dose of each substance being somewhere in the region of 12.5mg. Therefore, if, for example, you buy Alpha Lipoic Acid in 120mg capsules, you've got TEN doses PER CAPSULE!! LOL That's more than 24 hours-worth of doses from a single capsule. I don't think you'll need your insurance policy to cover these costs! ;)
I use DMSA as well as ALA, instead of only ALA because I have lead toxicity and DMSA is particularly well-suited to chelating lead (and some mercury). ALA gets across my blood-brain barrier and chelates mercury from my poor intoxicated brain.
...the idea that this takes vigilant action over YEARS time is extremely depressing.
When you say it like that, yes, I suppose so, but actually, although it's a slow process, and may get a bit worse for a time after you begin, it will get better and time passes much faster than one expects, if one simply keeps putting one foot in front of the other. It very quickly becomes a simple routine and waking up at night isn't anywhere near as bad as you might imagine. You just place your doses within arms reach, alongside a bottle of water, and don't even need to switch a light on to take each dose. It becomes so automatic that after a few rounds, you barely notice the brief interruptions in sleep. I set multiple alarms on my mobile phone to alert me for each dose within each 24hr period, and the nice thing about using a mobile phone is that it vibrates as well, which is helpful for waking me at night.
Note that there are some people who will tell you you can use cilantro or use IV DMPS and get faster results but this is, frankly, foolhardy. It takes a certain amount of time to safely remove mercury from tissues and organs because that is just the way of nature. Go too fast and redistribution or further tissue damage may result and certainly the adrenals will probably crash if you go too fast, to say nothing of potential neurological complications. This is completely unnecessary. Rome wasn't built in a day.
I am depressed and disappointed because it feels like the muscle tics and whacked-out sleep schedule, the memory loss, all of it, might just be my cross to bear because I'm not gonna be getting it fixed.
Have you listened to that podcast yet? - healthcentersofthefuture.com/DrCutler/DrCutler.mp3
Putting the time issue to one side for a moment, this process of chelation is quite simple in practice - you consume the chelation substances in the manner I've outlined, plus daily doses of antioxidants such as vitamins C (water-soluble) and E (fat-soluble), zinc, magnesium, and liver supportive agents such as milk thistle. You also add some adrenal support in the form of adaptogens and (if needed on a case-by-case basis) Isocort etc.
Broadly-speaking, in terms of a general, deliberately brief, overview, that's about it, in a nutshell.
It's definitely affordable and definitely do-able, one step at a time, and there's LOADS of support available from fellow chelators using the frequent-dosing method. Please don't allow your initial feelings of overwhelm to dissuade you from doing something with lifetime health benefits. I learned what I've learned (some of which you've read in this and other threads) in a surprisingly short space of time, simply because I accepted that if this is what's necessary, then so be it - I want to get well after years of my mercilessly-declining health. It's amazing what a human being can accomplish when motivated to apply oneself to a task.
I'm not just telling you something I read as an intellectual exercise;
I'm DOING this right now. I'm walking what I'm talking in our discussions here.
If I can do it, you most certainly can, too.
As I said, I'll help you in any way I can, and others will help you too (I'll point you in their direction). All you need to do is ask, and have a little more faith in yourself! :)
Take care, Kate.
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BeingK8
07-14-2011, 05:43 PM
Arky, HUGE cyberhug! :heart Thank you.
Okay, I feel a bit better now. I have some homework to do to see about the test and the supplements, but I feel relieved to know that it's not an impossible thing at this time.
I have not listened to the podcast yet. I will do that next. :-)
Cool.
Now please don't go buying ALA and/or DMSA before you've ready Andy Cutler's books, though. It's important. Please don't give in to the temptation to ignore this advice and start chelating immediately.
I HAVE given you a decent outline of the chelation method, in terms of a typical day consuming the pills, and in practical terms it needn't be any more complex than what I've described, but it would be entirely doing Andy Cutler a disservice of misrepresentation to assert that the brief details I've provided in these posts are a complete description of his work and his method - not by a very long shot. There's great depth to the meta-research and great generosity in the details provided in his books. When you read them, you'll immediately appreciate this for yourself.
You need to attain a more rounded understanding of the context of the frequent-dosing method and also of how chelation interacts with the body, and how to mould your body's response to it, which is something which differs from person to person. Andy's books are a veritable gold mine of such guidance and you'll pick it up easily enough - I'm simply trying to say to you please don't jump the gun - Do your homework first! :)
For example, I didn't support my adrenals initially, and wish I had done. No calamities, because I do listen very carefully to my body, and consequently backed-off for a while to build their function up a bit before resuming chelation, but I now know to make a decent effort to support the adrenals rather than focusing entirely on just the chelation itself. Since you already know you have adrenal issues, you'd thus be wise to work on improving your adrenal function prior to commencing chelation. You're getting the benefit, here, of my experience, thus far.
If you wish to converse further with others undergoing this chelation process (at varying stages and varying degrees of severity of intoxication), I thoroughly recommend the 'Frequent Dose Chelation' and 'Adult Metal Chelation' Yahoo! Groups. There are some very knowledgeable people participating on these two groups, and they're an extremely friendly and supportive bunch. Even Andy Cutler himself occasionally posts. The FDC group is particularly lively, at present.
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BeingK8
07-14-2011, 07:46 PM
I knew better than to start without reading the books. ;-) I got some maca and started it last evening. It IS yucky, but I can get it down.
Do you think that's a good start or is there something that Cutler would recommend that's different? I'm hoping this is a good plan because then I'll be a few months into rebalancing my adrenals by the time I even get the books, read them and acquire all the supplies. Oh, AND I have to get a test, so I have a while before I'd be starting chelation.
What do you think/know of maca dosage? I recently found some things on here that said we DO want the gelatinized because the raw can be worse for the body than not taking it. Something happens to it in the cooking process that is somehow beneficial. I hope that's accurate, but I'll find out the hard way, I suppose.
Okay, off to check out sources for the book. And since I can't download the mp3, I haven't listened to that yet. I hate to have to sit in front of the computer with nothing to do, so I know I won't do it right away.
I knew better than to start without reading the books. ;-)
Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to sound patronising - it's just that mercury is so damned tricky that I simply couldn't risk you succumbing to temptation to just get started ASAP, without reading around the subject first - I'd never forgive myself! :-/ My sincere aim is to guide you as safely as possible, with this mercury business, rather than leading you unwittingly astray! ;)
...Added to which, most of these posts are typed in the early hours of the morning, here in the UK, so a bit of rambling here and there is only to be expected, under the circumstances! LOL
I got some maca and started it last evening. It IS yucky, but I can get it down.
I actually like the taste, but I know what you mean. I recommend you try mixing your maca with flax oil; almost tastes like chocolate then :)
Do you think that's a good start or is there something that Cutler would recommend that's different?
Do you mean in terms of balancing the adrenals prior to commencement of chelation? If so, maca can play a part in supporting the adrenals but it's not a complete solution in itself. If you join the Frequent Dose Chelation Yahoo! Group, then, in the 'Files' section of that group, you'll find plenty of succinct, to the point, and time-tested info on adrenal support with specific regard to chelation requirements. Remember to use maca only in moderation, as you may recall me mentioning I do, because it is quite rich in sulphur which can be a moderate concern in those with mercury intoxication. I use it without problems, but I take it easy. Many people simply start chelation right off the bat, just as I did, but that would be unwise if you know you already have adrenal fatigue - only a fool flogs an already exhausted horse and expects it to go 10 more laps of the track without injury or worse!
Anti-oxidant status is also an issue, but much more easily remedied. You'll need to consume ample anti-oxidants during chelation but there's a lot of sense in doing this in the weeks and months leading up to commencement of chelation, too, simply because mercury is already in your system and already doing its pro-oxidative damage to the cells of your body. You basically need to focus upon fat-soluble and water-soluble antioxidants, to cover your bases, which means Vitamin E and Vitamin C plus anything you choose in between (e.g. OPCs such as pycnogenol, green tea, pine bark, grapeseed extract, berries etc. - you know all these, being a raw-foodie).
Additionally, because your body mostly attempts to expel mercury via the bile, you want to be promoting good bile flow and protecting your liver as much as possible, so that means glycine, taurine, lecithin, milk thistle, chanca piedra etc. I offered a plethora of suggestions in that other thread on wrinkles and liver flushing, a few weeks ago, some of which are appropriate for an Hg-intoxicated individual and some of which aren't, but here isn't the place to go into detail on those. The above are the primary bases to cover and substances to employ for the purpose.
Just a very brief note: DMSA tends to favour excretion of lead and mercury via the kidneys, whereas ALA favours the biliary route. This is not generally a primary reason to choose one over the other, but it's worth knowing all the same.
I'm hoping this is a good plan because then I'll be a few months into rebalancing my adrenals by the time I even get the books, read them and acquire all the supplies. Oh, AND I have to get a test, so I have a while before I'd be starting chelation.
Yes, it is definitely a wise course of action to get your adrenals up to speed, using the maca plus the recommendations in that Yahoo! Group file I mentioned above. If you dip your toe in the water by asking the members there any questions you may have, you'll find them a very warm and supportive bunch of people, some of whom have a wealth of knowledge and many a useful anecdote to share from their hard-won experience.
What do you think/know of maca dosage?
I don't get too hung up on exactly what dose is perfect - I simply take a heaped teaspoon morning and night and from that dose I get no sulphur/thiol problems and from that dose I get the positive results I mentioned in our first exchanges in this thread. It doesn't seem to hugely affect my adrenals specifically, but seemingly has more of a broad balancing effect on my endocrine system as a whole. For more specific adrenal support, in tandem with maca, I look to herbs such as ginseng, ashwaganda, astragalus, rhodiola etc. plus decent daily doses of vitamin C (Actually, C is best taken several times per day as it decays quite rapidly in the body). Note that there are non-vegetarian extracts which some find powerfully supportive of adrenal function but these, of course, fall outside the focus of Alissa's board.
I recently found some things on here that said we DO want the gelatinized because the raw can be worse for the body than not taking it. Something happens to it in the cooking process that is somehow beneficial. I hope that's accurate, but I'll find out the hard way, I suppose. Well, you know more about maca, in that regard, than I do, then. I've not read any negative info on ungelatinised maca. All I will say with regard to standard raw maca is that I find the additional starch mildly troublesome for my bowel inflammation, whereas this is much reduced in the gelatinised version. Regardless of any heat used, gelatinised maca nonetheless works as anticipated. I can personally attest to that. Any time you see me discuss my personal experience of maca, I am referring to Navitas Naturals' gelatinised maca. I'm sure you'll find your own preference swiftly enough :)
And since I can't download the mp3, I haven't listened to that yet.
Is there a problem with the link or do you mean something else..? It's a very informative interview; well worth a listen. If you mean it will only play from within your browser, then simply subtract the file name from that link and you'll arrive at the download page from which you can right-click on the file and download it. I listened to it on my mp3 player as I hate listening to podcasts on my computer, too.
Download page:
www.healthcentersofthefuture.com/DrCutler/
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BeingK8
08-09-2011, 08:52 AM
Finally back to reply. So far, have forgotten maca more days than not, and needless to say - biorhythyms are still a mess, but it's progress not perfection. :-)
Yes, regarding the link, I could only listen in the browser, not download to take it along. Going to check it out and see if I can with your instructions now.
Much gratitude for all the great info, sources and support you have given me, Arky!
Adam4man
08-09-2011, 01:27 PM
you can share the bedtime details for the rest of us :)
Finally back to reply. So far, have forgotten maca more days than not, and needless to say - biorhythyms are still a mess, but it's progress not perfection. :-)
Yes, regarding the link, I could only listen in the browser, not download to take it along. Going to check it out and see if I can with your instructions now.
Much gratitude for all the great info, sources and support you have given me, Arky!
You're most welcome, Kate, it's a pleasure to be able to assist others who're going through a similar experience to myself.
I wish you well, whatever path you decide to take, and please let me know if there's anything else I might be able to help you with.
Take care.
Regarding the earlier part of this thread, re' hair loss / thyroid / mercury :
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Autism-Mercury/message/297521
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