Kale question

[terry brown]

Hi Raw Friends,
I read somewhere that you should not eat LARGE amounts of spinach at one time.
Is it ok to eat large amounts of Kale?
When I make Kale chips I can easily eat 4 bunches in a day.
I have been having some severe joint pain at night and was wondering if this had anything to do with it?? Just trying to figure it out.
I have been all raw for almost two years now.
Thanks
Terry

[sport]

The reason to avoid too much spinach is the oxalic acid levels. Kale suffers from the same problem
You should rotate your greens. Have some romaine for a while.

[terry brown]

Sport, I was sure you would know about this!!
Do you think all that Kale could cause some joint and muscle soreness?
I was intuiting this morning that 4 bundles is a lot.
Thanks

[terry brown]

I found this on google, below. So since we are eating it organic and raw where would the problem come in.
It did no too much cooked could cause irritation in the muscles.

Just remember, organic oxalic acid is essential for your body and is completely harmless if consumed in organic form. It is the inorganic oxalic acid that causes trouble to your body. This is the reason why when you drink fresh raw spinach juice, your body utilizes 100% of all the minerals that spinach has to offer. But when cooked, the oxalic acid in spinach becomes inorganic and may posed some health problems in the long run.

I appreciate any and all help and guidance with this.

[MysticTree]

you can find a 100 statements that will contradict each other on most topics regarding vegetables. The key is to eat a sensible balance of a variety of things and not worry too much about whether you have eaten a cupful of spinach or 3 cupfuls. 3 cupfuls are way healthier than a big mac etc

[Raynne413]

One of the problems with spinach, and other grains as well, is the Vitamin K. Vitamin K is what helps your blood to clot, and in individuals like myself (who have blood that is too thick already and/or those that are on blood thinner) it can lead to problems.

[DawnD]

Test it out. Cut back and see if the joint pain eases up or stops and then return to the amounts you are consuming now. That may let you know what you can tolerate. Remember everything in moderation...even moderation.

[sport]

I do not think that the problem is how much of it you eat in a particular day. It is eating it every day and not changing to something else.
By all means eat a lot of it today but not every day.
Also note that the smaller younger leaves are not as high in oxalic acid so baby is better.

[MelanieBear]

Just a few corrections:

Oxalic acid is not present in kale, but it is present in Swiss chard and spinach. Cooking has some effect on it, but eating raw does not entirely prevent the issue. Rotating your greens is best.

Vitamin K is a blood thinner and does not promote clotting. Quite the opposite. In fact, people on bloodthinners will be told not to eat veggies high in the vitamin! Craziness.

Kale does however contain goiterogens and can depress the thyroid gland when eaten in very large quantities, especially when raw. (Cooking does lessen the goiterogen content.) Another good reason to rotate your greens, and a reason why I have no issues with steaming my kale.

Enjoy your kale chips!

Melanie


http://capitalcityherbalist.com

[terry brown]

Thank you everyone!
I will lay off for a while then next time I have my kale chips I will note what I feel.
I think I am having similar reactions with Raw Cocoa ice cream.
I like my raw treats and I find it sad that I may be reacting to them.

[Raynne413]

Just a few corrections:

Oxalic acid is not present in kale, but it is present in Swiss chard and spinach. Cooking has some effect on it, but eating raw does not entirely prevent the issue. Rotating your greens is best.

Vitamin K is a blood thinner and does not promote clotting. Quite the opposite. In fact, people on bloodthinners will be told not to eat veggies high in the vitamin! Craziness.

Kale does however contain goiterogens and can depress the thyroid gland when eaten in very large quantities, especially when raw. (Cooking does lessen the goiterogen content.) Another good reason to rotate your greens, and a reason why I have no issues with steaming my kale.

Enjoy your kale chips!

Melanie


http://capitalcityherbalist.com

Vitamin K isn't a blood thinner. It aids your blood in clotting. I'm on blood thinner, and deal with this, so I know.


In the body, vitamin K plays a major role in blood clotting. So it is used to reverse the effects of “blood thinning” medications when too much is given; to prevent clotting problems in newborns who don’t have enough vitamin K; and to treat bleeding caused by medications including salicylates, sulfonamides, quinine, quinidine, or antibiotics. Vitamin K is also given to treat and prevent vitamin K deficiency, a condition in which the body doesn’t have enough vitamin K. It is also used to prevent and treat weak bones (osteoporosis) and relieve itching that often accompanies a liver disease called biliary cirrhosis.

Here are several articles that goes into an explanation:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/983.html
http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/misc_topics/vitamink.html
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminK/

[Eva]

Your body is obviously telling you something... no matter what all the stuff on the 'Net says. Nothing wrong with changing things up to see what you can do to feel better!!

:heart

[EscapeArtist]

I hope you've figured it out. But if you still have persisting join pain and you're not eating grains in your diet already, I would try removing nightshade vegetables !
Are you eating many tomatoes, potatoes, eggplant, peppers?

Nightshade vegetables contain solanine which is a glycoalkaloid. Properties of this compound are given below:

This compound is toxic...
It has the potential to affect the enzymatic reactions which involves calcium. Hence results in weakening of the bones and joints.
It acts as irritants which lead to inflammation especially at the nerve endings and joints.

http://noarthritis.com/research.htm


I get really bad join pain from nightshades ;/

[Raynne413]

Hmmm. . . that's interesting. I've been having knee problems and I eat tomatoes and peppers everyday.

[Raw Angel Mom]

On symptom of b12 deficiency among other symptoms, is join pain. I would look into this.

As for too much leafy green,

Google Dan Mcdonald. This man live on leafy greens, fruits and vegetables. He looks vibrant of health and he is actually crossing America on Bike with fruits and vegetables.

Just a thought!

[GreginND]

Just remember, organic oxalic acid is essential for your body and is completely harmless if consumed in organic form. It is the inorganic oxalic acid that causes trouble to your body.

I don't think your statement makes any sense at all. Oxalic acid is: C2H2O4 (HOOCCOOH). It is a small molecule made of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen. It is an organic compound (carbon based molecules - not to be confused with the lay term organic for gardening). It is not inorganic. It is not harmless. It doesn't matter whether it comes from a plant that was grown organically or not - it is still oxalic acid.

[Non]

kale has goitrogens that are SUPPOSED which inhibit the thyroid function. It's possible. Bok choy was eaten in excess by a woman and she fainted or smtg because of the high amounts of thyroid inhibiters, though not the same chemicals found in kale.

Anyway.. saturated fats found in coconut oil and avocado have also been found to activate the thyroid function so..

I'd say if you're eating a lot just have enough avocado, coconuts, and a food omega 3 to 6 fatty acid ratio. And definitely don't forget seaweed.

[terry brown]

Thanks everyone.
I have not had Kale since then(as in large amounts) and have had no painful "attacks" at night.
Could have been the kale or a coincidence as i have been having some strange symptoms the past few months. Worrisome enough to make me take an even closer look at my all raw diet.
All I know is all this stuff about oxidation and all the raw food info/contridictions out there and such are confusing. ;0

[bestcrystal]

Is kale a good source of vitamin K2 (http://products.mercola.com/vitamin-k/)?

[MysticTree]

Is kale a good source of vitamin K2 (http://products.mercola.com/vitamin-k/)?

have you tried googling the answer to this?
In case you don't know how to use google, here is a link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_K#Sources

[T-Bird]

Thanks everyone.
I have not had Kale since then(as in large amounts) and have had no painful "attacks" at night.
Could have been the kale or a coincidence as i have been having some strange symptoms the past few months. Worrisome enough to make me take an even closer look at my all raw diet.
All I know is all this stuff about oxidation and all the raw food info/contridictions out there and such are confusing. ;0

Terry - definitely confusing!

My travels have taken me to thinking nobody really knows anything - all you can do is try to assimilate the info, and see what works for you.

I am most put off by those who assume they know the whole story. I look forward to more scientific inquiry and individual case studies to answer our questions, which get more and more minute as we go along.

Let us know what you find when you indulge in kale chips next time!

[Living Food]

In case you don't know how to use google, here is a link.

That's a bit harsh, don't ya think? :D

But just in case you don't know how to use a link, either (joking), vitamin k2 is found only in animal foods, and some fermented foods. This is because animals like cows eat grass (lots of K1), and convert it into k2 in their body. Sadly, humans are much less efficient at it as animals are.