Thoughts on B12 and raw honey

[JElay]

Is raw honey a source of B12? Since the production of honey may includes some bug parts, could it be an incidental source of this vitamin? Or what about bee pollen?

I know many vegans don't eat honey, but it seems to be accepted in much of the raw community. I hope this question doesn't offend anyone. It just seems since the collection of raw honey, pollen, propolis often includes minute amounts bug parts, that it could provide this important vitamin.

[Bananna]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey#Nutrition

Wiki says no. ...it also says it has a lot of fructose, which I didn't know. But it makes sense that there might be some trace amounts of B12 in honey, but probably negligable if any ;)

[mcster]

Why are you concerned about B12? Deficiency of B12 is myth for the most part and the only time there seems to be a real deficiency is when people eat heavy SAD vegetarian/vegan diets (as in nothing fresh). I cannot think of a scenario under which someone consuming a raw vegan diet could ever be deficient in B12.

[JElay]

Thanks, but I wonder if the nutrient profile of raw honey is different, since it's not nearly as processed. According to livestrong, there's some B12 in it but it doesn't specify: http://www.livestrong.com/article/83033-raw-unprocessed-honey/

Also, I found some sites saying bee pollen would have it, but I can't find standard nutritional profiles of it.

[Eatrawordie]

Why are you concerned about B12? Deficiency of B12 is myth for the most part and the only time there seems to be a real deficiency is when people eat heavy SAD vegetarian/vegan diets (as in nothing fresh). I cannot think of a scenario under which someone consuming a raw vegan diet could ever be deficient in B12.

Can you explain how it's a myth for people (like myself) who are now suffering from this B12 deficiency?

Can you explain how comes Vitamin B12 supplements (which I finally gave into) helped with the numbness/tingles in my arms and legs and prickly skin when no other raw food helped? That is a huge symptom of B12 deficiency and many vegans do experience it. I am now better from these supplements.

So please explain further

[mcster]

Can you explain how it's a myth for people (like myself) who are now suffering from this B12 deficiency?

Can you explain how comes Vitamin B12 supplements (which I finally gave into) helped with the numbness/tingles in my arms and legs and prickly skin when no other raw food helped? That is a huge symptom of B12 deficiency and many vegans do experience it. I am now better from these supplements.

So please explain further

No I can't. I know nothing about you or your diet. Sorry. What I do know is that B12 is produced primarily in soil. It therefore gets absorbed by fruits and vegetables and that's how we primarily get B12 in our diets. Or we can consume the animals that consumed the fruits and vegetables and get B12 through that inefficient process. Furthermore, B12 requirements are extremely low and B12 is stored in various organs and tissues so developing a deficiency can take years. Vegetarians and vegans who don't consume enough live foods could be prone to developing a deficiency after a few years but that has nothing to do with being vegetarian or vegan and everything to do with having a poor diet. If you're raw vegan and have a B12 deficiency, then clearly there are going to be other issues at play that only a doctor or therapist can help you with. I am neither.

[streetsurfer]

....where a raw vegan could possibly have a B12 defficiency.
If the raw vegan had experienced any of the following:
Helicobactor pylori, HIV, proton pump inhibitor use, severe infections, complications from gastro surgery, celiac disease, tapeworm, eating disorder, pernicious anemia-lack of intrinsic factor, being elderly where stomach acid production slows, pancreatic disease, and there are surely more. Anything that could contribute to malabsorption issues could bring a defficiency on. Being Raw Vegan does not necessarily make one exempt from all the above. Sure the liver stores it...if it is working fine. In that case it could just be a matter of time if any of the above have been encountered.

Now that you know some of the possible scenarios, you may be able to reflect back and think of them in the future.

[JElay]

No I can't. I know nothing about you or your diet. Sorry. What I do know is that B12 is produced primarily in soil. It therefore gets absorbed by fruits and vegetables and that's how we primarily get B12 in our diets. Or we can consume the animals that consumed the fruits and vegetables and get B12 through that inefficient process. Furthermore, B12 requirements are extremely low and B12 is stored in various organs and tissues so developing a deficiency can take years. Vegetarians and vegans who don't consume enough live foods could be prone to developing a deficiency after a few years but that has nothing to do with being vegetarian or vegan and everything to do with having a poor diet. If you're raw vegan and have a B12 deficiency, then clearly there are going to be other issues at play that only a doctor or therapist can help you with. I am neither.

However, much of the soil used to grown fruits and veggies in the US is virtually sterile when it comes to B12-producing bacteria. Even organic farming now doesn't make up for the loss that happened during much of the big chemical agricultural boom in the 1900s. B12 deficiency is a real problem, even for non-veg*ns. Most animals killed for meat have their diet supplemented with this vitamin because they are not naturally getting it in their feed or when they graze

I don't think anyone should be flippant and assume they get enough in their diet. Unless you grow your own crops in nutrient-rich soil that you can guarantee hasn't been chemically-treated in 50 years, you run a risk of deficiency.

Who knows why some people are more prone to deficiency than others. Maybe some of us swallow more bugs in our sleep than others. Maybe some have more active sex lives(seminal and vaginal fluids are rich sources of B12.) Maybe some people naturally produce more B12 in their intestines and are able to absorb it better than others. There are way too many factors at hand. Every person, regardless of diet, should take care with making sure they have this vital vitamin.

[streetsurfer]

Who knows why some people are more prone to deficiency than others.

See my above post for some possible reasons.

[mcster]

....where a raw vegan could possibly have a B12 defficiency.
If the raw vegan had experienced any of the following:
Helicobactor pylori, HIV, proton pump inhibitor use, severe infections, complications from gastro surgery, celiac disease, tapeworm, eating disorder, pernicious anemia-lack of intrinsic factor, being elderly where stomach acid production slows, pancreatic disease, and there are surely more. Anything that could contribute to malabsorption issues could bring a defficiency on. Being Raw Vegan does not necessarily make one exempt from all the above. Sure the liver stores it...if it is working fine. In that case it could just be a matter of time if any of the above have been encountered.

Now that you know some of the possible scenarios, you may be able to reflect back and think of them in the future.


However, much of the soil used to grown fruits and veggies in the US is virtually sterile when it comes to B12-producing bacteria. Even organic farming now doesn't make up for the loss that happened during much of the big chemical agricultural boom in the 1900s. B12 deficiency is a real problem, even for non-veg*ns. Most animals killed for meat have their diet supplemented with this vitamin because they are not naturally getting it in their feed or when they graze

I don't think anyone should be flippant and assume they get enough in their diet. Unless you grow your own crops in nutrient-rich soil that you can guarantee hasn't been chemically-treated in 50 years, you run a risk of deficiency.

Who knows why some people are more prone to deficiency than others. Maybe some of us swallow more bugs in our sleep than others. Maybe some have more active sex lives(seminal and vaginal fluids are rich sources of B12.) Maybe some people naturally produce more B12 in their intestines and are able to absorb it better than others. There are way too many factors at hand. Every person, regardless of diet, should take care with making sure they have this vital vitamin.

Interesting info all around and it all makes sense. I have heard that B12 is actually a bigger issue for meat eaters than for veg, which makes sense to me since I correlate B12 deficiency with a SAD diet more than with whether or not one eats animal products. It also makes sense for B12 to be an increasing concern due to modern agriculture. I personally eat mostly organic to prevent ingestion of pesticides and food that may be lacking in nutrient density. However, I also agree with the idea that B12 deficiency in persons who consume a raw vegan diet or at least a healthy measure of live foods is probably more of a symptom than a cause as alluded to by streetsurfer. The reason being that the required daily intake is so low and that our bodies have the ability to store supplies for years.

[Eatrawordie]

Why are you concerned about B12? Deficiency of B12 is myth for the most part and the only time there seems to be a real deficiency is when people eat heavy SAD vegetarian/vegan diets (as in nothing fresh). I cannot think of a scenario under which someone consuming a raw vegan diet could ever be deficient in B12.

Can you explain how it's a myth for people (like myself) who are now suffering from this B12 deficiency?


No I can't. I know nothing about you or your diet...

Yes you do, my diet is Raw Vegan. You telling people that it's a myth can be very damaging. B12 deficiency was my only problem.

[green goddess]

What I'm wondering is... what is actually in B-12 supplements? I'm sure they're vegetarian sources, but what are they?

[mcster]

Yes you do, my diet is Raw Vegan. You telling people that it's a myth can be very damaging. B12 deficiency was my only problem.

No, I don't. Just because you're raw vegan doesn't mean I know how or what you eat. You can be raw vegan and be unhealthy or healthy depending on what and how you eat. It's no different than any other dietary regiment. It would be quite ignorant of me to make blanket assumptions based on general assertions about your diet. At any rate, please note I said "...myth for the most part..."

As for B12 being your "only problem", I agree with the posts above and would suggest that you consider that B12 may not be your problem but instead possibly a symptom of another underlying problem. Again, I'm not a doctor or a nutritionist but it certainly might be worth while to open that discussion with one. If you are B12 deficient and all of the sudden you start taking supplements, most of which provide more than the suggested daily intake, of course you're going to start feeling better and bring your deficiency to balance. But that doesn't mean that if there is indeed an imbalance that caused the deficiency, that the imbalance has been resolved.

As for me saying B12 is a myth...for the most part...and you thinking that my statement might be damaging, I stand by it and I'm not alone in this theory. This is a forum to share ideas. That's all I'm doing and I'm doing so in the spirit of reciprocity and being helpful. It doesn't mean I'm right or wrong and you're welcome to take or leave my comments as you please. What I find damaging is being so married to your point of view that you close yourself off from other ways of looking at your situation. Just my $0.02.

[Eatrawordie]

No, I don't. Just because you're raw vegan doesn't mean I know how or what you eat. You can be raw vegan and be unhealthy or healthy depending on what and how you eat. It's no different than any other dietary regiment. It would be quite ignorant of me to make blanket assumptions based on general assertions about your diet. At any rate, please note I said "...myth for the most part..."

As for B12 being your "only problem", I agree with the posts above and would suggest that you consider that B12 may not be your problem but instead possibly a symptom of another underlying problem. Again, I'm not a doctor or a nutritionist but it certainly might be worth while to open that discussion with one. If you are B12 deficient and all of the sudden you start taking supplements, most of which provide more than the suggested daily intake, of course you're going to start feeling better and bring your deficiency to balance. But that doesn't mean that if there is indeed an imbalance that caused the deficiency, that the imbalance has been resolved.

As for me saying B12 is a myth...for the most part...and you thinking that my statement might be damaging, I stand by it and I'm not alone in this theory. This is a forum to share ideas. That's all I'm doing and I'm doing so in the spirit of reciprocity and being helpful. It doesn't mean I'm right or wrong and you're welcome to take or leave my comments as you please. What I find damaging is being so married to your point of view that you close yourself off from other ways of looking at your situation. Just my $0.02.

It's not that i'm closing myself off from other views, it's just that I know my body way more than anyone else. I've been through a lot trying to work out my problem and researching many other problems like Candida but all along it was a B12 deficiency. I found this article interesting.
http://www.cqfz.net/articles/the-link-between-candida-and-vitamin-b12-deficiency.html

You're right, you did say "myth for the most part" so we'll leave it as that.

[mcster]

It's not that i'm closing myself off from other views, it's just that I know my body way more than anyone else. I've been through a lot trying to work out my problem and researching many other problems like Candida but all along it was a B12 deficiency. I found this article interesting.
http://www.cqfz.net/articles/the-link-between-candida-and-vitamin-b12-deficiency.html

You're right, you did say "myth for the most part" so we'll leave it as that.

Thanks for the link! Interesting article. I agree that we know our bodies better than anyone else. However, and I say this from personal experience, sometimes we can know there is an imbalance but we don't know how to fix it, even after exhaustive research. I thought I'd share an article that expands upon the ideas that I suggested above. I hope you find it helpful. http://www.pamrotella.com/health/b12.html

[Eatrawordie]

Thanks for the link! Interesting article. I agree that we know our bodies better than anyone else. However, and I say this from personal experience, sometimes we can know there is an imbalance but we don't know how to fix it, even after exhaustive research. I thought I'd share an article that expands upon the ideas that I suggested above. I hope you find it helpful. http://www.pamrotella.com/health/b12.html



Thanks a lot. I'm reading it now.

I know what you mean about not knowing how to fix it after extensive research but I say to not give up. I suffered from a rare skin disorder called Prurigo Nodularis, which is how I ended up going raw. Prior to going raw I had spent over a year and over $2,000 trying to fix it! It's all cleared up now though. I can finally relax. It kinda hurts when doctors tell you there's nothing you can do to fix it and this is how your skin will be from now on. A big middle finger to them. I got my skin back and now I can start dating again : )

[mcster]

Thanks a lot. I'm reading it now.

I know what you mean about not knowing how to fix it after extensive research but I say to not give up. I suffered from a rare skin disorder called Prurigo Nodularis, which is how I ended up going raw. Prior to going raw I had spent over a year and over $2,000 trying to fix it! It's all cleared up now though. I can finally relax. It kinda hurts when doctors tell you there's nothing you can do to fix it and this is how your skin will be from now on. A big middle finger to them. I got my skin back and now I can start dating again : )

Hope that helps. At least it's a starting point in exploring a different perspective. The coolest part about not relying on conventional wisdom is that you really start understanding how your body works. As unfortunate as your condition may have been, it's great that you were able to find a solution despite doctors telling you otherwise. I've heard that story many times. My personal experience is that I found a cyst four years ago and my doctor said it was benign and something that just happens as you age...nothing to do about it. He even lifted his shirt and showed me five cysts of his own. Obviously that made no sense to me whatsoever. And now it's about 20% it's original size after doing a cleanse and then going raw since New Years. I can't wait for my next doctor visit after it's completely gone. :D

Best of luck with your search for B12 answers! :)

[Mary Kay]

Mcster...Sounds like more than a myth to me also, when many docs etc who have tested numerous patients, such as Dr. Cousens, agree that most vegans need B12 supplementation. HMMM..

And JElay...oh man...you got me off on a funny tangent when you mentioned B12 in semen. LOL I was googling like crazy.

It sounds like there's only a small amt there though!

Mary Kay

[mcster]

Mcster...Sounds like more than a myth to me also, when many docs etc who have tested numerous patients, such as Dr. Cousens, agree that most vegans need B12 supplementation. HMMM..

Mary Kay, everything in context. The "myth" is that the vegetarian/vegan/raw diet is responsible for B12 deficiency. I do agree that vegetarian/vegan/raw people can be prone to B12 deficiency but only due to their particular food choices. Far more people become vegan for ethical reasons than for health reasons. Many of them don't know much about health and think that omitting meat from their diet and consuming things like pasta and tofu burgers will do. It's those people who consume a vegan version of SAD (most of them) that are prone to develop a B12 deficiency. So it's easy to point the finger at the vegetarian/vegan/raw lifestyle but I would argue it's because of what they chose to eat specifically.

[Eatrawordie]

Mary Kay, everything in context. The "myth" is that the vegetarian/vegan/raw diet is responsible for B12 deficiency. I do agree that vegetarian/vegan/raw people can be prone to B12 deficiency but only due to their particular food choices. Far more people become vegan for ethical reasons than for health reasons. Many of them don't know much about health and think that omitting meat from their diet and consuming things like pasta and tofu burgers will do. It's those people who consume a vegan version of SAD (most of them) that are prone to develop a B12 deficiency. So it's easy to point the finger at the vegetarian/vegan/raw lifestyle but I would argue it's because of what they chose to eat specifically.


Well explained.

[Mary Kay]

Sounds good. Thanks for the response.

Mary Kay