Delay in B-12 deficiency ?

[kaleboy]

ok I'm not a doctor so take this post with a grain if salt as it is just a theory but it is something to consider...

From what I can tell the liver stores excess B-12 for use as required which can range from 3000 - 5000mcg on a standard american diet. This is actually a supply of 3.3 to 5.5 years depending on what your liver is holding prior to raw food living and assuming our daily requirement is about 2.5mcg's a day (and you are not supplementing). So in essence it acts like a bank to get you through the lean times and when your body produces excess B-12 it stores it for later use and this is why deficiencies are rare even in vegetarians.

So here in could lie a problem for new raw foodists in that without supplementation you're B-12 levels could read as normal for a period of up to 5.5 years as you body draws on its supply from the liver. And given that you will still have some B-12 production from a raw vegan diet this could even be extended out to 7 years !

So from this perspective it might pay for raw foodists to start having a close look at B-12 levels starting from as early as the 3 year mark and probably the 5 year mark if you were previously a meat eater. Even the 7 year mark for the people who have made it that far and are not supplementing it is still well worth having checks done around this time even if previous checks have indicated everything is ok.

[green goddess]

I am neither a doctor ;) but my thinking on B-12 is this:

It is found in earth clinging to things we grow, like roots and greens. If we grow food ourselves (without chemicals/pesticides) and don't spend too much time scrubbing the dirt off them, we are then taking in a bit of B-12. I've never heard of herbivorous animals being B-12 deficient, and they are not too picky about washing what they eat!

Carnivores eat herbivores; they do not eat other carnivores. Carnivores are getting their B-12 from the herbivores, which get their B-12 from the dirt from unwashed plant matter. Again, this is my theory, so I'm not saying I'm completely accurate! So, I reason that if we also don't worry too much about scrubbing away the last bit of organic dirt from our food, we shouldn't be B-12 deficient!

I'm interested to hear if anyone else has theories in this matter? It has always seemed strange to me that to be eating optimally (raw vegan food), we must suffer B-12 deficiencies, according to many people. It seems to reason that if this is the way we're supposed to eat naturally, there would be no deficiencies.

What do you guys think?

:confused

[kaleboy]

Yes that is true but we are not wild creatures anymore, we put on shoes, jump in cars and go down to the supermarket where the food has traveled many miles if not internationally. The stuff herbivores eat is different. It is wild food covered in dirt, insects and whatever else is on it. Plus they eat a truck load of it. Some raw vegans may live near organic co-ops or grow their own at home and be fine but in general not all of us are that fortunate.

So the point is is that because of our modern way of living and the way our bodies are now designed if you are not supplementing it could take many years for a deficiancy to show up and is just something to be aware of.

Really though one just has to take a nutritional yeast supplement for B-12 and everything will be ok. It is quite possible that a raw vegan living diet supplemented with external sources of B12 could produce the longest life spans of humans known to date.

http://www.vegansociety.com/lifestyle/nutrition/raw-food-diets.aspx

[verbena]

I think the whole 'not scrubbing your veg' thing can be a bit gross, unless you are soley consuming produce that you have grown yourself, so you know exactly what has gone on the produce and IN THE SOIL. A popular general fertiliser in organic production is blood, fish and bone, made from ground up fish, dried blood, hooves, horns and bonemeal, mmm tasty :weird Or how about chicken manure and farmyard manure? I don't fancy eating that on unscrubbed food either.

[green goddess]

I rememeber when I first realized what was actually in these magical fertilizers, and thought, what? Really? Dead animals help plants grow? I think, ideally, we'd have naturally-occuring manure from passing wild animals, not bags of factory-farmed cow manure. But in this day and age, is really is hard to do the 'ideal'.

That said, maybe the next best thing would be to gather wild food, edible greens and such from a natural area that is not contaminated with humans or chemicals and stuff. Or maybe I'm being too idealistic. But I would really like to think that we can naturally get enough B-12 without resorting to supplementation!

So, back to the original post, I think you've brought up a good point, kaleboy, with the onset delay in B-12 deficiency. I'm interested in what long-term raw vegans have to say about whether they supplement or if their levels of B-12 are ok.

BTW, does anyone know what is actually in B-12 supplements? I've just realized I don't really have a clue!

[kaleboy]

The reason that motivated me to post was I saw the rawradianthealth girl from you tube get a B-12 deficiency after 9 years ? I think the danger is that people think they are safe as you will get some B12 production from raw food and combined with stores in the liver like I said it could mean a deficiency wont show up for a number of years. I mean say you were a meat eater prior to raw food living and you had a full 5000mcgs in your liver and your raw diet was supplying say 1mcg a day. If your rda is 2.5mcg it would take 9 years for a deficiency to show up.

The thing is there aren't that many raw foodists that have made it 7 - 9 years. The ones like Matt Monarch who is 12 years ? now grows his own fruit and veg and also uses wild herbs and grasses etc. So there is very little human interaction from garden to plate. But still say his daily intake was 1.5mcg's a day it would take 14 years to go through the liver supplies and maybe longer if his daily B12 intake was higher.

So obviously your environment and the type of raw food you eat combined with your original liver stocks will play a big part in how much time it takes to arrive at a deficiency if you are not supplementing.

Using just an egg as an example. A large egg has 0.6mcg's of B12 so to meet your daily rda of B12 on eggs alone you'd have to have 4 a day.

So I think raw vegans really do need to supplement. I mean Tonya Zavasta now does and she is very knowledgeable and very pure in her diet and has been on raw foods for 13 years. So for her to take a nutritional yeast supplement sais a lot I think.

[green goddess]

Thought I'd mention - I just attended a seminar with Brendan Brazier tonight and he mentioned looking for plant sources of B-12. I asked what these plant sources are, and he said chlorella and nutritional yeast as the best sources.

[verbena]

There seems to be some debate about plant sources of B12 like chlorella etc, as apparently the b12 is not "bio-available" for the human body. also I was reading a bit last night and also there is evidence to suggest that there is not sufficient b12 in the soil either for us to get our RDA. There is some good info in the link that Kaleboy posted above

[kaleboy]

Thanks Green Goddess, found this article about chlorella and its high bio available B12 content (higher than beef liver)...apparently chlorella has good bio available B12 whereas spirulina and dulse dont.


http://www.regenerativenutrition.com/chlorella-immune-system-antiviral-amino-acid.asp

this also has some good info...

http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?18325-B12-in-chlorella

[RawMark]

I'd be pretty wary of eating unwashed foods, to avoid parasites.

[green goddess]

I'd be pretty wary of eating unwashed foods, to avoid parasites.

I figure that if I'm not too picky about washing only what I grow organically, and my immune system is strong because of eating living foods, then parasites shouldn't be too big a concern.

Thanks for all the information, kaleboy! I'm going to have a nice long read tomorrow (looks like I'd missed your first link from one of your earlier posts) while sipping on my mango smoothie. Oh, so many ripe mangos in the house right now, so happy!

:excited:

[kaleboy]

Well I've done a bit more research into chlorella and was astounded at what I found. It's B12 content per 100g ranges from around 100 to 130 mcg's on average ! Some people had readings of 50 and some as high as 250. This is a massive amount and apparently bio available. For comparison 100g of sardines comes in at 9mcg's which is high for seafoods. So if you were to take just 1 teaspoon a day you would be getting somewhere between 7.5 and 9.5mcg's a day of B12 which is way way above the rda of 2.5mcg's. Plus there are many other good things going for it. Also I dont see chlorella as a "supplement" as it is a natural sea plant.

[Revvell]

I'd be pretty wary of eating unwashed foods, to avoid parasites.

Welll, I've been doing it a long time now and, as was stated, it's a good way to build the immune system. I'm thinking some of MY parasites are eating the bad stuffs in my body which is keeping me as healthy as I yam. :D