I can no longer call myself a vegan

[klomasius]

It's not what it seems... :)

I've just has some stuff happen today that's made me realise just how much of an abyss there is between me and cooked food vegans.

It's been brewing in the back of my mind for some time. I have bee vegan for 13 years (veggie for 2 years before that) and for 7 years I was a cooked food vegan. So that's pretty much all my adult life as a vegan.

One of my core identifiers has been that I am vegan and all the compassionate joy the lifestyle brings.

But today something happened that made me do some deep thinking. I've always brushed off the fact that so many of my fellow vegans eat huge amounts of processed crud, though the more I thought about it the more I made the connection between how the young vegans ate and how the old vegans suffered. I used to be those people.

I've realised that after all these years, I now have more in common with raw vegetarians than I do with cooked food vegans, which is a huge fundamental shift for me as I'd always seen fellow vegans as my brothers and sisters.

Don't get me wrong, my diet is still vegan, but the word just doesn't do justice to how I live my life now.

I posted a Facebook status to that effect and had a vegan friend say that vegan was a lifestyle and raw is a diet. But it's MUCH more than that, it's an all encompassing LIFESTYLE that goes beyond what I eat now, anybody else get where I'm coming from with that?

Now this thread will simply be confusing or irrelevant for those of you entering raw from a non vegan/veg perspective. And for that I aplogise. :)

But tell me fellow vegan friends, have you started to feel the same way?

[sport]

I still see myself as vegan first and I think that it is because I make sure that any soap or household cleaners that I use must be vegan so it does encompass a lot more than my raw does.
Raw only applies to my food.

[kaybee]

i think that when we start to see health and "being" more holistically, it becomes more difficult to ignore what we put in our bodies, regardless of whether its vegan. For me, the ethical element of veganism has always been primary, so I will revert to cooked vegan or to feeding people cooked vegan if thats what will promote veganism. But i definitely see your point. I think a lot about this in terms of seeking a partner and what sort of compatibility I would require. Ive reached the point where I dont feel like I can consider being with a man who isnt vegetarian at the very least, headed towards veganism. But now I also find it difficult to think about being with someone who, even if they were vegan, is surviving heavily on processed or "junk" food, even if it is vegan. I've also run into this tension a lot this summer while in the process of starting a market stall with a frien in Ireland, which isn't really into veganism yet, and is little familiiar with the raw foods movement. My requirement was that it be vegan, though I wanted to do primarily healthy, refined sugar-free, and some raw stuff. We started off with salads, smoothies, juices, and raw brownies....we are now doing...cookies. not healthy, albeit vegan. Sometimes it comes down to the question of "how do i best get the message across..." In this case, it came down to offering less-than-optimal but still vegan foods (along with the salads, vegan sandwiches, etc), because that was what was in demand, what would sell, and what would pay the bills for providing the other stuff that might not always sell... But my point is that I totally see your point. For me the vegan is most important so thats what Ill always focus on and what will always be my primary focus in promoting, because of "compassion for animals" reasons. But yes, I increasingly find myself at tension in regards to the fact that even if its vegan, its not the best stuff that people could be putting into their bodies. I guess all we can do is try to eat the best we can and OFFER to others that way of eating, but *shrugs*

but yeah, i get it.

kaybee

[sport]

I was a member of the veg/vegan forum on boards.ie but I never visit it now.
I found it strange to see people enquiring as to which shop had the best vegan sausages and if a particular ice cream or candy was vegan friendly.
I felt like screaming at them that that was not what veg food was supposed to be about. It was supposed to be about veg.

[SevenKindsOfCookie]

I haven't started to feel the same way since I never identified myself as a vegetarian nor vegan. Even though I haven't been eating meat for over twelve years now, and for about six of them I have eaten almost exclusively vegan (except for honey).

My switch to vegetarian food was purely instinctual. Eating meat just didn't resonate with me. It was never out of idealistic or health reasons for me. And the same goes for when I approached vegan food.
In fact, I've never been attracted to the vegan community at all. There is generally way too much anger and frustration there, too much boxed thinking. And that's certainly not something I want to be a part of.

I have to say though, ever since I started to eat high raw I've become more open towards other peoples dietary choices. I still don't like the idea of people eating meat, but at the same time I understand very well why the paleo trip appeals to many people. In a sense, I have much more in common with that kind of lifestyle than the modern vegan lifestyle.

So I understand what you are getting at klomasius. I think that the raw lifestyle can be very liberating for many people in that way. It doesn't have, or at least shouldn't have, anything to do with adopting an identity but rather finding your own true identity.
Raw food is that kind of thing that for most people starts out as a dietary lifestyle but quickly evolves into a holistic lifestyle.

[Anahata]

I have met severial vegetarians and vegans that live on processed Morning star foods and other brands of processed foods and eating out at resteraunts.

I am going from a horrable meat infested diet and slowly working into raw so I don't have personal experiance from being vegan without raw.

Now that I have started eating raw, it actually makes me sad when I think of cooking my veggies!

[SevenKindsOfCookie]

Now that I have started eating raw, it actually makes me sad when I think of cooking my veggies!

Yeah, it just feels wrong doesn't it? They get all mushy and loose all of that vitality and flavor.
Having tried living off wild foods exclusively for a while, I do understand why they started to cook a lot of things though. But now they have cultivated most of them enough so that cooking is unnecessary.

[klomasius]

Thanks guys, this is an interesting conversation. :)

Sport, I too am on several veg/vegan boards, but I still visit some of them. I feel the same way about people waxing lyrical about all the processed junk food, and asking where to find this and that. Funnily enough, on one particular board I'm on, they also talk about how sick they get, and I've tried to bring up the connection but they aren't having any of it. From time to time I just have to take a break from the board as I just feel so alien now.

But I have to disagree with you on the 'raw is just a diet' thing. To me it's far more than that!

When I went raw, it began a slippery slope into a vast change in my lifestyle that radiated outwards from my diet. When I was vegan, I would ask 'is that personal care product vegan?' regardless of what chemicals it had in it etc. Now I ask the question 'is that personal care product NEEDED?'.

Since becoming raw I have left so many things by the wayside that I'd never have done as a vegan. I no longer use shampoo and conditioner (it took rawbies to show me I didn't need them), I no longer use chemical based deodorants, just salt or bicarb soda (it took being raw to show me I didn't need them). I no longer use hair product, or chemical laden moisturiser or any of the countless other things I would have loved as a vegan, but just don't need as a rawbie. As a vegan it was cruelty to animals and just a bit of 'natural' that tinged my buying habits. Now it's 'do I need it?' and 'can I eat it?' that influence my personal product purchases.

And it's not just products, it's my whole way of thinking and being, it's completely different to most, if not all other vegans who eat cooked. I can't list the changes as they are so many and so complex, but now I feel like I have more in common with a raw food vegetarian than I do with a cooked food vegan as a raw veg knows where I'm coming from!

EDIT: Another thing that differentiates me from a cooked food vegan is that I don't have to walk around with a library in my head of all the non vegan preservatives and additives etc that are in every processed product. It's so freeing to be able to read an ingredient list (actually, I hardly even do that anymore, fruit doesn't have an ingredient list!) and see only things I can immediately identify.

[SevenKindsOfCookie]

Another thing that differentiates me from a cooked food vegan is that I don't have to walk around with a library in my head of all the non vegan preservatives and additives etc that are in every processed product. It's so freeing to be able to read an ingredient list (actually, I hardly even do that anymore, fruit doesn't have an ingredient list!) and see only things I can immediately identify.

Yeah. I remember watching the Jeff Novick video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd9XnyNGXGs) on youtube on how to read labels. I thought to myself "Why do people always need to make things so complicated? Just buy the food that doesn't have a label and you'll be much better off anyway."
There are perhaps four or five things that I buy that has an ingredient list. It's usually no more than three ingredients and they are all natural and recognizable like I would have done it myself.

[klomasius]

Yes! It just freed up the whole process of eating. Can't identify it, don't eat it!

It's unbelievable how much easier eating became when I adopted that philosophy.

I credit not eating all of those preservatives for some of the wonderful benefits of raw.

[RawkinM]

This is a great thread.
I totally get how you feel.

I really found when I went for simple (whole, unprocessed raw vegan) - I feel so much more connected to nature and my body. I think that's why I love simplicity - it just feels so much more connected to me.

The idea of heavily laden personal care products or cosmetics with ground-up bug juice (carmine) - :( - if I sit with it and think about it just makes my insides squeamish (feels torturesome to the soul).

I've spent way too much time feeling disconnected in my society and world and in the last couple of years, have really celebrated and come to understand I need simple and real and vibrant. And I've really come to listen to that voice inside that thinks there are so many "popular" things that seem so unnatural and disconnected and detrimental to me.

Just my thoughts. I'm open to how everyone else lives - because I've probably been there. I just know what I need to do to find peace and love in my life and to be present.

[klomasius]

Awesome post RawkinM! :) <3!

[melly]

Klomasius, I can totally relate to what you're saying. I was also vegetarian, then vegan, then raw vegan. It's funny you mention the vegan forums not wanting to hear that what they're eating may be the cause of their illness, because I've experienced similar even from non-vegans about my own eating habits. For example, some acquaintances don't know I'm mostly raw and just know me as "vegan" and will often suggest I eat at a place that serves a tofu dish, or suggest that I get a soy latte. When I try to explain to them that I'm avoiding processed foods, it just doesn't connect. Vegan isn't necessarily healthy all on its own and I think a lot of people still don't grasp that.

I also feel that raw has penetrated my lifestyle more than when I was vegan, like you mentioned, I also find myself using less "products" and more food items for my body :) I hope this all made sense, I'm super-sleepy and probably shouldn't be allowed to type to the public like this :p

[klomasius]

I'm glad to hear others are feeling the same way. :)

Most veg*ns I know are cooked food veggies, and I am starting to feel so isolated from them. When I go to dinners, it's like I'm back where I started years ago, like when I go out with omnis. An asian mock meat place might be fine for the average vegan to dine in, but it's impossible for me to get a simple salad there (but I do get it cos I'm the master of manipulation, lol).

And as others have mentioned, it's not just the food, it's my whole lifestyle that's evolving away from the average vegan lifestyle.

[melly]

yesss, I now go to places and find myself thinking "tofu? is that the best they could come up with?" when I used to praise any place that had any mock meats. Funny how perspective can change so easily.

[TaupeRawMan]

I did a long time as a strict non-processed food vegan and then went to raw. I think that many people can do just fine on a 100% whole food cooked and raw vegan diet (or close to it). I strongly believe it is the processed foods that are the biggest problem (and benefit when going raw......whole-food raw, that is). I notice that many people that come to raw come from SAD diets. When people talk about "falling off the wagon", it generally isn't to some steamed veggies, lentil soup, brown rice, etc. It is processed foods of some sort. And then they feel bad. I believe the bad feeling that comes isn't because the food isn't raw....it is because it is processed junk or not a whole food.

I realize this post may be deleted due to content, but thought it was important to say.:o

[Eva]

The funny thing is ~ I can get how your friend would say raw is a diet and vegan is a lifestyle ~ but from the OUTSIDE.

This change in "diet" changed my whole darn life in every possible way.

It's not just not eating cooked food. I'm over here dry skin brushing, oil pulling, squatting, rebounding, laughing, living... nothing hidden away or stuffed down... just living what I like to call the "Rawk Star Life"...

and people just don't get it. Well, not exactly... but I do know that in my recent travels I had several people ask me for details merely because they wanted to do whatever in the heck I have been doing... because I'm just so dang happy! And alive!

The crazy part is... I still know I'm not doing it all right. I never seem to drink "enough" water or get "enough" exercise these days... but it doesn't matter. Once you make that final turn to the raw LIFESTYLE... you just become a more raw person. :)

[klomasius]

Taupe, I get where you're coming from, but even as a 'healthy' vegan I was eating wholemeal pasta and rice and bread, foods I find now to have a drug-like affect on me. If I said this to most healthy vegans who don't eat processed foods, cooked all their own meals, bought organic etc, they'd look at me like I'd gone crazy! Just like I would have looked at them years back. :)

Eve, I am hearing ya! I too do not do things completely 'right', but who cares! If this level of health is wrong, or sub optimal, I'm as happy as a clam and have the energy to back it up!

[TaupeRawMan]

Hi Klomasius -

okay....I see what you mean now. I view pasta and bread as processed. Even the whole grain kind.

[klomasius]

Hi Klomasius -

okay....I see what you mean now. I view pasta and bread as processed. Even the whole grain kind.

Yeah.. see, it's only the rawbies that get me when I say these things aren't good for us and should be considered 'junk' foods, i.e. eaten sparingly if they are eaten. Whereas healthy vegans will look askance at me and say there's nothing wrong with whole grain rice with a nice cooked wholefoods curry or stirfry (it's gluten free after all).

The only reason I know they are not good is from experiencing it myself first hand and the effects both immediate and medium term. And by the anecdotal evidence on forums such as this, it's a common experience. Mainstream vegans are still on the other side of the experience fence!