Teeth rotting on raw, plus other health problems: Help?

[Flanny]

I went all raw for over a year, no animal products. The entire time I was freezing (started suffering from hypothyroidism), my metabolism slowed down and the weight loss even stopped before I was down to optimal weight, and the worst part is my teeth started rotting. I tried vegan friendly b12 and other supplements that I found suggested on various websites but no avail.

Disclaimer/warning/whatever:

Please don't hate or ban me for the next bits. I'm offering information and clarifications in the hopes of finding genuine help. Thanks

I ended up incorporating raw milk and raw eggs to arrest the symptoms. I'm beginning to understand Ghandi's results and opinions on 100% raw vegan.

Does anyone have any resources or information I can use or that would help me in my endeavours? I am hoping for open minded responses with honest conversation. I have overload from all the conspiracy theorists. Sorry to be so blunt about that part but I just want earnest help, not conspiracy hype. I'm at my wits end and too worn out to weed through it all. Thanks in advancefor understanding and pardoning me for it.

[sport]

I have been raw for more than five years and I do not have teeth problems or any other problems.
Were you getting enough calories.
Were you getting enough minerals
I have been a strict vegan for nine and a half years so the absence of milk in my diet is not a problem.

I am feeling fantastic. I sleep all night and wake up full of energy and stay that way until bedtime.
There has to be another reason for your problems.

[sport]

I want to tell you my tooth routine.
I oil pull in the morning.
After I have finished eating I give a quick rinse with water and a pinch of (aluminium free) baking soda followed by a couple of rinses of water.
I brush with a soft brush and toothpaste twice a day. Half an hour after my first and last meal.

[michigan roman]

dont have an answer , ive just my big picture / philosophical outlook :

i believe we re-incarnate body after body after body etc til one day each of us at our own pace fiinally figure out how the universe works and in the process attain complete eternal control of our body states at that point .
and how we exist each day is determining the type ' roots ' were growing on our souls that are responsible for how long its going to take us to attain an eternal body state . each soul being in complete control of what they eventually evolve into and how long or how many future body spans it takes them . thats how i see it , and im waiting for or praying to no god thing to do a thing for me . i look only to self to grow into what i want to be . to see this youve got to look at it like one body span is nothing , weve got forever and ever and an 80 year body span is just one moment amongst our eternity of billions and billions and billions times billions of centuries = forever

so all that said my point is : i'll be damned if im going to stay on an evolutionary path of leaching off of other creature types by eating
their eggs and milk !!! not for me , im a plant eater . and if for now i cant
figure out the proper all plant diet and i feel weakly i dont care because
theres no other option for me but to keep experimenting with plant foods

[michigan roman]

also : i think were missing something to be found in either seeds or greens

a wild green or herb that we need to domesticate ,
theres plenty out there while vegans are only consuming
a few

[freespirit]

can you tell us more about your daily diet? do you drink green smoothies everyday?
you can incorporate more greens and sea vegetables for mineral content.

I will probably get reamed for this, but I do incorporate raw cheeses into my diet. It works for me and when I am 100% vegan I tend to crave fish and cheese. I would assume for the fats. I eat flax, avocado, nuts- all the vegetarian sources of raw fats and I still have cravings.

So, i think rather then concentrating on labels, do what works for you. I just read some of Gandhi's writings because I was unaware of his thoughts on milk and eggs. his experience sounds like something that should be taken into consideration...

Just source them properly and in moderation and hopefully no harm will be done.;)

[ArcturusXIV]

also : i think were missing something to be found in either seeds or greens

a wild green or herb that we need to domesticate ,
theres plenty out there while vegans are only consuming
a few

Hemp :eek::D

Oh yes, and I agree with oil pulling! 3 days after starting my teeth were whiter than an entire week after using a crest whitening kit years ago as a SAD eater! True story.

Also, are you getting enough calcium? You might also consider sinus troubles potentially as part of your problem. The maxillary sinuses rest right on the roof of the mouth. After I started having sinus troubles, I developed Torus' on my right gum, and the roof of my mouth swoll and got very dry. I also started getting cavities! Never in my life have I had cavities... *shudder* I would get a neti pot, Alkalol (natural nasal rinse, amazing stuff!), and some non-iodized salt, and do a nasal rinse. Neti pots are amazing for keeping sinuses!

[michigan roman]

i guess i should try hemp then , never have because too pricey

[ArcturusXIV]

i guess i should try hemp then , never have because too pricey

Actually, that was kind of a joke, though I agree with Genesis 1:29, every herb has it's use! Pot leaves contain 5x as many antioxidants as spinach, according to David Wolfe.

Also, I kind of think fungi & mushrooms are the missing link! I researched Vitamin B-12 alongside Fungi today. Since nutritionists claim vegans do not get enough vitamin b-12, and fungi are more related to plants than animals (plus intelligent!), I sincerely hypothesized that perhaps some fungi might provide vitamin b-12? Bingo. I was correct! http://deoxy.org/mushman.htm

[Flanny]

Thanks for all the sincere responses. My diet at first followed heavily the 80/10/10 principles of Dr. Douglas Graham. then, because of the intense cravings I started incorporating green smoothies of various blends (usually kale, collards, or turnips as the main green). I've since found that information about the goitrogenic foods (when consumed raw) and am experimenting with non-goitrogenic greens. I've also found information on many people who have been RV longer than myself who suffered through years of these symptoms, supplementing with RV friendly supplements for minerals, etc. so I'm not alone. I was taking RV friendly foods and supplements to provide calcium, minerals, etc. along with the vegan friendly b12 supplement.

During my year of 100% rv friendly diet my daily intake would total between 1800 to 2600 calories from vegetables, smoothies, juices extracted with a green star juicer. I had my meals in 5 incriments daily. I first started with mostly high fiber fruits and veggies, then incorporated smoothies daily to try to help the cravings, then started adding sprouting and very limited "gourmet". for fats I try to utilize avocados as I have had very good results from avocados. ocean greens tend to cause my stomach to go into spasms so I limit my intake of those. I have tried various natural iodine alternatives to try to work with the hypothyroidism from the greens but so far I haven't found the proper balance.

I oil pull twice daily with sesame oil. I have tried hemp oils in limited quantities from health food stores. I have searched for hemp greens (not cannabis) but have not found a legal source for non-cannabis hemp greens.

I have met people who have lived rv for years without trouble while their own mates have rotten teeth and sickly composure. I'm beginning to think that there are regional and/or ethnic oriented differences in peoples genetic make up that cause us to require different nutrients from different sources.

I do suffer chronically from allergies (i.e. related sinusitis) but this is still there when I am not 100% rv but not a problem (toothwise)then. I have tried saline nasal flushing (non-iodine), but started bleeding after 2 weeks of this so I had to discontinue the flushes.

Since it's been brought up, Morally and ethically, I believe that we all feed each other through birth, life, and death. Throughout historical nature we nurse from our mothers (exceptions withstanding in this modern world) for up to 6 years. Then, even with a vegan friendly diet we are nutured by the plants, which are nurtured by life essence found in the soil, which is rich from nutrients of dead insects, animals, etc., (again, exceptions withstanding in this modern, synthetic world). So every time we eat an organically (properly) grown vegetable or fruit, it has nutrients that have come either directly or indirectly through the death of insects, animals or both. My death will feed the soil which will feed plants and insects, which will feed each other, which will feed animals further up the chain . . . ., I respect those who disagree with me and I respectfully disagree with them. That said I will do my best to no longer post on the "morals" debate as I am far to0 tired to debate or argue those who condemn me on these grounds.

[Aleesha Sattva]

Let's keep this discussion OUT of the animal product area please. This is a vegan forum and no one here has to defend their right to be a vegan and anyone who chooses to not be a vegan has every right to do so but we don't share it here.

There are forums out there where discussions on eating animal products is welcome... this is not one of them.

in light,
Moderator

[sport]

Flanny.
I feel obliged for my own sake to take this further as I feel that we should try to understand what is happening to you.
It appears that you have made every effort. Have you ever taken Vit D supplements or had your level tested.
I have always thought that Dr Mercola was incorrect when he discussed different types needing different foods but maybe he is correct and I am aware that a short time ago Paul Nissan found it necessary to deviate from the vegan path. Perhaps what is good for me is not good for you.

[Dimond]

Flanny, how have you been taking care of your teeth throughout eating raw?

You may want to experiment with juice or water fasting as that has helped many resolve lingering health issues.

[Stina]

One huge problem is eating fruit that is not properly ripened. Good luck learning about and locating properly tree-ripened fruit that isn't too acidic that in turn causes the body to leach minerals from the teeth and bones.

For example, did you know conventional, non-organic oranges are sprayed orange? Oh yes, that's true! So the color doesn't indicate whether it's properly ripe. Squeeze them, a ripe orange will be softer to the touch. The peel should be easy to peel with your fingers. Once you get the hang of identifying a propertly ripe orange, you'll start to realize that those beautiful stands of citrus at the grocery store have very very few ripe oranges and it's one fruit that does not continue to ripen after being picked, unlike bananas.

[Flanny]

my daily tooth care routine initially included oil pulling twice daily, Brushing twice daily with toothpaste from a genuine health food center (not a gnc, etc.) but I found out that flouride causes hypothyroid also so I switched to a baking soda and salt mix that another person shared with me. I managed to obtain a piece of natural chicle and would chew it through out the day, rinsing it each evening and storing it in a ziploc in the freezer but my daughter ended up throwing that out so now I have to try to get another piece. It did slow down the rotting some but did not eliminate it.

I have tried fasting several times. I have several books on fasting and have tried water fasts, juice fasts. etc.

My organic foods are from a whole food co-op here and purchased almost daily. I haven't become a conneseur of ripe fruits and veggies versus non-ripe but I live in an area that has very little growing time so things are either imported or canned for over 7 months out of the year. Since raw dictates not eating canned by it's own design I eat the imported organics.

I have been supplementing vitamin d (the good kind, not the bad kind, all from plant based sources). Depending on who's interpreting the results they are normal to the high side of normal.

I have been trying very hard to follow rv friendly dietary principles through healthy, informed choices. But with rotting teeth and other health problems I've had to start re-evaluating things.

I should also mention that after only 7 months my joints started aching horribly and by the end of the year I could hardly walk or drive, yet by all informed RV standards I was doing everything "correctly".

My intestinal tract cannot handle the non-vegan aspects of other diets (since the m word and a.p. words are not allowed here). The only 2 non rv friendly foods I tolerate I've already mentioned and had to re-incorporate them into my diet. Since then the tooth rotting has stopped. Additionally since adding them the joint pain slowly disappeared. I have all but 2 cavities filled but I absolutely hate having lidocaine pumped into my gums and synthetic materials packed into my teeth. This is so contrary to everything I'm trying to accomplish with my health.

I cannot find work in warmer climates that will allow me to eat locally grown living foods year round. I would love that option but it's not available at the moment. Even if it was I'm not certain at this point that I wouldn't still be missing something that I haven't properly identified and addressed in a manner that would resolve my problems.

I need high fiber fresh foods for specific health issues. I need to stay away from most non-vegan natural foods for other specific health issues. I am really hoping that Living Foods is the answer but I am still at a loss as to what I'm missing.

I should also mention that I have very recently stopped drinking extracted juices and have opted instead for blended whole foods with water added so that I don't eliminate the fiber. After my grandfather, a person who does not eat m***s or other a.p. or many cooked foods, had a heart attack, I have read and seen valid science that shows that it is fiberless fructose that causes the blockage in our arteries so I no longer "juice" but instead "blend", including high quantities of celery (fiber)

Thank you to those who have chosen the high road in speaking to me in earnest, not preaching or condemning me or admonishing me while I'm trying EARNESTLY to find a solution to my problem. We win far more bees with honey than vinegar and I certainly am grateful for those who are willing to help me without condemning me or getting haughty over what I have to share in order to get help. Thank you.

[michigan roman]

sorry you took it wrong flanny but i wasnt preaching / judging ,
i was giving you a pep talk to fire you up to barrel through to your
solution . as opposed to throwing towel in on veganism and saying
it cant work

[ArcturusXIV]

I am going to recommend that your sinusitis may be related to your tooth decay. The top of the maxillary sinuses sit on top of the roof of the mouth, and sometimes, if you have a pressure pocket (i.e. sealed off sinus) up there, the different air pressures can equalize by sucking food up into your gums. It sits there, especially sugars, and rots at the root of your gums. Oil pulling is a wonderful technique to help this, but if it is not helping, something else must be done! Do you suck the oil up into your gums?? This helps. This happened to me, and after 26 years of no cavities, I started getting some! Of course, doctor's will not listen to this. :D They are not physics majors.

Try some ALKALOL (look it up), non-iodized salt, and a neti pot. If that doesn't work, you could have a fungal infection, in which case, check out candida and start working on it! Fungus can thrive almost anywhere, including your sinus.

Best of luck, :eek:

James.

[Flanny]

How does the neti pot differ from a bulb syringe other than pouring versus squirting? Also does the Alkalol server better than non-iodized kosher salts recommended in past literatures I've read? I will research alkalol tonight. I would think that if the sinusitis was related to the tooth rotting then it would have been an issue even before the complete conversion to raw as I've had chronic allergies/sinusitis for years now and the tooth decay was only after the conversion to 100% raw. This is why I am leaning towards believing it originates with nutrition versus health. I am thinking that there has to be something I'm not realizing that I'm not providing myself, but I can't figure out what it is. I know too many people who do well with this lifestyle and I don't want to be one of those that ends up giving up because I can't figure out what's causing the problems.

When I oil pull I do well squeezing the oil between my teeth. I've never read nor heard of "sucking it into the gums". Is this different than pushing and pulling between the teeth?

Thank you for your suggestions. I will do more reading tonight.

[veganoflight]

You are not alone! Some people need small amounts of animal products. Some kids have had all their teeth rot out with the vegan diet, they are being nursed and their teeth rot out. I met a kid today, 7 years old, all capped teeth. Her brother is fine. Both raised vegan but the difference is that they started really supplementing with B12 and D3 (not D2). Take the B12 in a chewable form.

This is not a religion and you are not helping animals or yourself if you are sick. Even omnis have a hard time with B12 sometimes, some people are better at nutrient absorption and some are not. Some people have stores of B12, some don't. Some people like vanilla, Buddha, and sunlight. Some people like Fox news, Jesus, and Sarah Palin.

We are all different.

Eat a chewable B12. Take D3. There is a vegan version of it. Everybody's physiology is different. Talk to a nutritionist right away.

By the way, this post was deleted, then severely edited, by the moderator and I suspect that it will be deleted again. All I can say, is that it's pathetic. In a small group of people, raw or almost raw vegans, there is a high prevalence of tooth decay. I am a vegan and I don't have this but others do! We are not machines and you are doing a disservice to animals (humans) and other animals by deleting or severely editing this post.

[veganoflight]

I'm a long time vegan and a vegetarian before that. I have an Asian heritage. I have zero health problems. My teeth are fine, but after eating popcorn or almonds, I had a 6mm pocket. It would not get better. I was using conventional tooth products with SLS from Toms of Maine. I was using drying products. Basically products recommended by the ADA. Then I got an estimate for surgery, which is what the doctor said was the only answer: 2500.00 + a bone graft of 900.00.

I had that gut feeling that they were wrong. I did some research and I started using only peppermint oil (three drops), spearamint oil (1 drop), and 1 drop almond oil and that's all use to brush and flosh and my pockets went from 6 mm to 4mm to 2mm in the course of year. The doctor and hygienist was amazed and the hygiensist started telling people and they saw amazing results. It's not just the gums that improved, the overall teeth look nicer too.

So check it out. I stopped all other types of tooth products except the oils.

[Stina]

Hi Flanny, I like your thoughtful, intelligent inquiry into the topic. Its an issue I've seen assessed numerous times over the four years that I've been eating a high percentage of raw in my diet. May I suggest checking out give it to me raw.com to look into a broader perspective concerning dental health since certain topics can't be discussed on this board. Be warned, it's not a vegan board but vegans will hack into peoples accounts and send viruses if you say something not promoting veganism. Follow your gut instinct.

[Stina]

Ha Ha Veganoflight ! I don't know who you are but I love you!

[veganoflight]

Ha Ha Veganoflight ! I don't know who you are but I love you!

Thanks! Yes I love animals but I love human animals more, after all we wield the forks, knives, and weapons. I don't love the lion less because she or he eats meat. Imagine taking someone with Yupik or Inuit heritage and/or similar DNA and putting them on a plant based diet, or imagine taking a thriving raw foodist and putting him or her on a high animal fat/blubber diet? Both would fail. We are not machines. We have a little of this and that in our DNA and utilize things differently. It makes sense.

We all have different needs and though our empathy for our fellow creatures may be the same in many respects, it would be a shame to hurt the only animals who can make a difference (humans with their forks) thinking they are doing something wrong or they are not "ethical" enough. You gotta be alive to help other animals, so eat a little of this or that (as little as possible to stay healthy) if you must. There is no shame. Some one out there (me) has your back and there are many of us. I'm all vegan but my mother couldn't hack it totally. She's better than most, but needed the eggs a little fish. Don't be hard on the fork wielders, extend your compassion where it's most needed: toward the fork holders. Don't judge. Just understand.

[Flanny]

Thank you Stina and VeganOfFlight for your responses. I have the web sites up and will check them out.

I have looked into many things but it seems that every problem or deficiency is met with one costly supplement or another. My thoughts are that some supplements are necessary, after all, they're required on the s.a.d. diet but the difference is the cost. Vegan friendly supplements, and every supplement suggested for the problems that ail me would break a rich man. If veganism is to win out it's got to be affordable. If only the rich can afford veganism then it's doomed to failure. I refuse to believe that a diet that is supposed to be what nature intended has to be so expensive that poor folks can't follow it.

I know I'll probably get a lot of responses stating how affordable it is for this person or that. But the truth of the matter is, I'm not anyone else, I am me. and I did not come from a cookie cutter mold and neither did any one else. I have a cousin who can't gain weight to save his life. I can't lose it all to save mine. We're both different. One person may function fine on locally grown produce in the northern most part of this continent, and yet another might need every supplement known to (vegan) man just to maintain a minimum level of health.

I want to avoid animal products and I want to eat healthy and I get frustrated at the better-than-thou attitudes whenever someone slams me or criticizes what I've had to do, and then moderators delete posts or threaten action with the statement "we don't have to justify ourselves here". IMO that's a double standard if You are willing to allow vegans to slam non-vegans or principles you don't like but you refuse to allow opposing opinions to be presented or discussed. If you can give it, you should be willing to take it, In my personal, humble opinion.

My thoughts are, if I'm having trouble and I want help, I should be able to post my struggles without fear of reprocussions. And others should be able to respond as most of you have, openly and with earnest suggestions. If someone decides to post a self righteous and/or critical response to my request for help then I should be permitted to defend myself. But at this point I'm simply venting frustration, so there's no sense continuing on that line.

Thank you again for your earnest posts and the information in the links provided. This is what I am seeking, help, not self-righteous indignation from those who haven't suffered what I have, or perhaps have but are either refusing to admit it, or prefer to suffer for a moral conviction than to live healthy.

[veganoflight]

I think that you can be healthy, perhaps not on a totally 100% pure vegan diet and really, that's okay. Some thrive. Some don't. It's not all or nothing. Do what you can personally do that is sustainable (you can follow it with relative ease) and is healthy. You're better off living a life of almost veg and eating less animal products than being an unhealthy "vegan" who is sick, doesn't look good, and so on.

The cost between vegan and non vegan supplements is sometimes the same cost, do what's practical for you. I suggest, that you have to settle on a gelatin capsule, break it out and put it in a veg cap or take it without the capsule. Gelatin is sourced all over the world, and it also comes from the UK, prions don't ever die. I personally believe that there is a form of CJD here in the US, that's why CAFO cows just fall down and die. That's another story. Now with factory farming, weird stuff is in the flesh and secretions of animals that IF I absolutely had to eat animal products to survive, I would do my best to source from the closest, cleanest, least gross place I could find and keep it to a minimum. For my daughter, I get the eggs from the "Free to Fly" hens 20 min. away. There's no rooster about.

Though I don't have a degree in nutrition, I'm a web developer, however I have good amount of knowledge about nutrition. One thing I will say that I don't hear much about, but I think it's VERY important, is that there is a very huge lack of good flora in most people's guts (intestines). It has a lot to do with the diets we were raised on and what was happening during gestation. Some kids in a village in Africa eat a largely plant based diet with some termites, they have no viruses or bacterial infections and are super healthy. They also have awesome gut bacteria. Comparing them to Europeans who basically eat a starch, sugar, meat, dairy diet, scientists found that these kids have lousy gut bacteria and are sick a lot. And certain strains just are not available in a capsule. This is conjecture, but I believe we've lost the ability, with big AG farming and depleting the top soil and stress and a variety of factors, to have this good bacteria inherently. But we can take what we can from probiotics. Many strains, veggie sources. I have seen nothing less than miracles occur with serious dosing of probiotics and plant enzymes! Amazing results. I'll post the study about the African kids when I find it.

With probiotics our intestines are healthier and we are able to extract the nutrients from the food we eat and utilize them better and convert them into the vitamins we need. IF (this is an example only), for example, someone has a vitamin A deficiency from eating ONLY a plant based diet, their intestines are having a hard time taking the form of pro-vitamin A -- beta carotene -- and converting it into vitamin A. Probiotics could really help them. When a body's intestines are not working optimally, then one needs to get the vitamin A ready to go, which can be found in liver, butter, whole milk, cheese, egg yolk, basically animal products. Just like a mother bird has to digest the food first then give it to her baby to handle, some humans need to get their sources of vitamins from the animals because their own bodies are not converting well enough. The same analogy can be used for vitamin D, K, E and others. B12 is something we've lost the ability to make in our intestines. Animals can still make it. Many people, vegan and non-vegan, have b12 issues. Best to take a chewable form of it. It's not expensive and well worth it.

Also, this recently in: Vitamin C
Early research suggests that vitamin C supplements can destroy dietary vitamin B12. It isn't known whether this interaction is important, but to stay on the safe side, take vitamin C supplements at least 2 hours after meals. (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/926.html)

[rawmiss]

You might have lead poisoning. Lead tends to accumulate in bones and teeth and weaken them. But don't use DMSA to detox it, I've read that it can cause kidney damage.

[bachcole]

Dear Flanny, et. al., I do a terrific job brushing my teeth with MMS. But the second I drink my dual-gear freshly squeezed veggie and fruit juice, the plaque just forms immediately on my teeth. I don't know what is happening, but I know that it is real. The brushing with MMS makes my teeth slicker than wet ice. And never have I felt so much fuzz on my teeth as after drinking my veggie/fruit juice.