Miss Manners on saying no

[Sharon in Colorado]

I love Miss Manners, and I thought this was a great example - it may help some of us who struggle socially:

DEAR MISS MANNERS:
I have a lifelong weight problem, and have finally, after years of doctors, crash diets, binges, pills and everything else, gotten myself under control. I know, for instance, that I can't take "just a little" of certain kinds of food - one bit and I'd be off again. The trouble is that now that I'm finally decent looking, nobody believes that I really need to keep dieting, and I am always being pressed to "Just have a taste" of this or told "I worked so hard making this - won't you even try it?" Frankly, if it comes to a choice, I'd rather lose friends and pounds than keep both. But is there a way to say "No" and make people believe and not keep urgin you anyway?

GENTLE READER:
The way to say "No" is often. People who won't take "No, thank you" for an answer are rude, rather than, as they suppose, hospitable. Don't try to explain why-just keep those three words pleasantly until they give up.

Page 88, Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior by Judith Martin.

I quite agree here. I always find myself having to explain, and the author goes into detail before this about how explanations are unnecessary.

[Autumn]

I agree wholeheartedly with her suggestion to keep repeating "those three words". I have found that by repeating something *exactly* the way you said it the first time tends to stop a pushy person.

Ex.
"Would you like to go to a movie Saturday night?"
"No, I'm sorry, I'm not free that night."
"Oh please, it will be fun. Just us and the girls."
"No, I really can't. I am having dinner with my sister."
"But you can bring her too. We'll all go."
"Oh, well, um, I don't know, I'll have to ask her..."

See how the respondent's responses weaken? She starts making excuses, explaining why she is busy, etc. Eventually she will go, even if she doesn't want to.

"Would you like to go to a movie Saturday night?"
"No, I'm sorry, I'm not free that night."
"Oh please, it will be fun. Just us and the girls."
"No, I'm sorry, I'm not free that night."
"You can't break your plans and come with us?"
"No, I'm sorry, I'm not free that night."
"Okay"

It might seem a bit rude, but it's HIGHLY effective!

[Ariannah]

This is so good. I don't want to create barriers between family and friends and myself, and I am *always* the one who ends up caving after having people "insist" on it. There are times when people have gone out of their way "just for me" to make something (rushed to Timbuktu to buy special ingredient, for example). And while I really do appreciate the thought (people aren't "out to get me", they simply do not understand) I must be able to maintain backbone and show them appreciation at the same time.

One time someone I care about very much (when I was eating cooked food) knew I didn't eat wheat or glutenous grains, so she went out of her way to make a special dessert with rice flour, but it was sweetened with corn syrup (another one of my undoings!). She let me take the rest home, and I went home, gave the family each another piece, and then gorged on the rest! Not to mention the fact that while I was there, I ate 10 or more pieces and hoped nobody would notice!

I am kind of worried about upcoming holidays, and am planning to write a polite e-mail when invited by certain family members, to show that I still love and enjoy them for them and not only for what they cook, and offer to bring a few fresh things that they can add to their meal. Something like that. It'll take me months to figure out how to word it... but I would rather the topic be whispered quietly and not be made the topic during a family gathering.

Ariannah

[Sharon in Colorado]

I am kind of worried about upcoming holidays, and am planning to write a polite e-mail when invited by certain family members, to show that I still love and enjoy them for them and not only for what they cook, and offer to bring a few fresh things that they can add to their meal. Something like that. It'll take me months to figure out how to word it... but I would rather the topic be whispered quietly and not be made the topic during a family gathering.

Ariannah


Like Miss Manners says, talk little and give no excuses. Anything you say should be how much you enjoy their thoughfulness and your time spent together. I found that folks who don't go into long explanations about their different lifestyles are rarely picked on. I have often found myself causing the problem that boosts me into the topic of convesation. It's good practice for me personally.

[Ariannah]

I completely agree with this, in most cases. There is a difference though in more intimate relationships. There are some instances where repeating "no, thank you" over and over again will and has in the past caused problems, where it would seem very odd that I'm suddenly not taking mother in law's special dish that she made around the family table (or anything for that matter) whereas I used to, with gusto, eat second helpings. To all of a sudden be refusing everything does draw unnecessary attention, and would take joy away from the family gathering where my children get to finally see their grandma. Very unfair and unthoughtful to ruin a special occasion like this. I want to head it off at the pass with a lovely and thoughtful email.

So in this particular occasion it would only be fair to my in-laws on Thanksgiving that advance notice of some type (without a great deal of explanation, just politely saying that I eat a different diet than I used to) be given. It will save her the trouble of having to prepare something special just for me that I will wind up refusing. She places a great deal of pride in her cooking.

However, for less intimate occasions, I've repeated "no, thank you" with a smile, successfully, and no hard feelings have been given. It really, really does depend on the occasion.

[Sharon in Colorado]

I agree that if it causes a great personality change (whereas before you gave explanations for everything) it may cause some confusion. It would be easier to try this on folks who don't know you as well as your closer relatives.

[Ariannah]

What I mean is, suddenly it's going to be completely obvious that I've refused everything, and I do mean everything. My plate will likely be completely empty, whereas everyone else's will be piled. That in and of itself will draw all the attention. My mother in law would be hurt that she had no indication in advance of what I would like to eat, and it gives her joy to give people a good meal. It's not a matter of not explaining vs previously explaining. It's hard to pretend stuff is on your plate when it isn't ;). To not give her that courtesy would be completely blowing her off.

That is what I mean by some situations definitely requiring explanation. And I don't want to do it when we arrive at their house after all the work she's gone through. If I want people to be fair to me, I must make 110% sure I've been fair and honest with them. It's the equivalent of that handy restaurant card that people want to pass to the chef in that other thread.

Hope this clarifies what I am trying to articulate.... I apologize for the tangent, too. When I think about it, this situation really does have little to do with the starting post in this thread. The tips given by Miss Manners are entirely appropriate for a great percentage of situations. This has been on my mind a great deal, because I've been really thinking lately about what to say to give her advance notice. Chances are she'll ask in advance, herself (she has in the past) what kinds of things I'd like to have, as she is a very thoughtful dear lady, so when that window of opportunity comes up, I'll let her know nicely. But if she doesn't I want to say it in a private venue, nicely, and let the celebration continue as it should.

[dreamrawalwz]

I don't think you *need* to explain it to anyone because it is your personal healthy decision, but if you feel it'll help in the matter, go ahead. As far as the plate being empty, it doesn't have to be :) Make wonderfull dishes of raw food and maybe offer it to the family too. Your plate can be piled high of yummy raw food :)

[ReneeSC]

I think it's bordering on rude, if not fully rude, to arrive a peoples' homes ( family and friends ) and expect them to listen to your "new diet you"..as they're wiping the sweat onto their apron after being in the kitchen for hours ( or over the grill ).. I think there's a more-appropriate time for you to approach this - BEFORE you get to the "No, thank you" firmness.

I've had to say "No, thank you".. sweetly and firmly to my family over and over again ( and I mean the family in my house ). But, they already know _why_ I was saying it. We already had lain the ground work for understanding.

Before arriving at a relative's house - one where you've been known to ( BR = Before Raw ) eat with "gusto" as RnN said - couldn't you call them or speak to them face to face and let them know the changes you're undergoing..and why.. and that you'd really love to come to their house; you really love them, but you'd really like to be able to eat what you can bring yourself while you're "healing".
You could explain that while you'd love to partake, you'd think that would begin a binging cycle ( or something similar ) ..and you'd rather avoid that, but that you STILL LOVE THEM! Ask them to help you get through this. Sometimes enlisting others' help will cause them to side with you instead of against you.

Many, many folks cook and prepare from their hearts. They don't understand that you're divorcing them from their food and just loving THEM. So... it's a matter of explaining if you can. I would give them the courtesy of hearing this explanation and talk AHEAD of time, and not the day of your arriving in their home. That way, you can talk about anything raw you'd like to bring for the rest of the company to eat with you. Spread the joy!

If you get fought on it, though.... well... Here's where I'd pull out the Miss Manner's guns of "No, thank you." period.
If they still fought me - and made it miserable for me
I'd not show up. And it wouldn't matter who it was.

Life it too short to be made to feel a prisoner to somone else's ideas of what you should eat by the use of guilt and manipulation, especially in already-sticky family holiday situations. I'd quell that storm well ahead of time.

I'm still working on what to do with people who offer you food and they don't know you and your're in their home. :)

[rawpriestess]

There are ways of handling things without being rude, and without over explaining to the host.

The most important thing to remember, is that you are in the person't home NOT for the food, but for the companionship.

People have just been taught that to show love and caring, is to offer food.

And to offer love and caring to the hostess, I bring food, to share.

there is always room for a beautiful fruit place at any gathering.

When I am invited to a party, I give no explanations, but when I am invited to a sit down dinner, where the hostess may feel uncomfortable, I tell her WHEN she invites me that I am fresh fruits and vegetables only with no cooking.

At which point, she will usually say something like, "Oh, well, I can do that for you." and then I just eat what she offers me, or I eat what I have chosen to bring.

If she for any reason, says, anything like, "well, just this once, you can eat (fill in the blank)", I simply say, "Yes, I could, but I prefer to eat fresh fruits and vegetables" and that usually ends it.

I agree with ReneeSC, as I don't go where I feel like I have to explain myself.

So, we have made the choice NOT to go to family gatherings for traditional things like Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas dinner, or anything like that. We simply tell them we are too busy and that we are unable to attend.

They are finally "getting it".

[Sharon in Colorado]

What I mean is, suddenly it's going to be completely obvious that I've refused everything, and I do mean everything. My plate will likely be completely empty, whereas everyone else's will be piled. That in and of itself will draw all the attention. My mother in law would be hurt that she had no indication in advance of what I would like to eat, and it gives her joy to give people a good meal. It's not a matter of not explaining vs previously explaining. It's hard to pretend stuff is on your plate when it isn't ;). To not give her that courtesy would be completely blowing her off.



Would there be nothing but cooked food at this function which would leave your plate completely empty?

I used to believe that I had to give people joy, even a vegetarian or a dieter by making them feel obligated to have 'just a taste' of what I slaved over in the kitchen. Until I was in that position, I didn't realize how I came off to them.

You wouldn't be blowing her off if you had a gluten sensitivity, a nut allergy, or diabetes and couldn't eat her stuffing and pies. It would make sense to fill your plate with what you could eat and busily enjoy it so there's no room for her to take 'offense' that you didn't partake in the cooked stuff. Surely there's salad, and if you brought a raw dish or two, you could have that.

Also, if there are enough guests and it's buffet style, how much would you really stand out if you weren't eating the bird and all the cooked trimmings?

This might be a good question to ask Miss Manners, I wonder how she would reply.

[Ariannah]

Last thanksgiving, yes, everything was cooked. I think it would be rude and one-sided of me to not give my dear mother in law advance notice that I'll be bringing something to share and that I'll likely be eating only that. I would consider myself rather selfish to be invited to a Thanksgiving dinner, which she shops weeks in advance for, thinking she already is making "special food" for me, and then springing a string of no-thank yous around a dinner table.

My mother in law loves to accomodate where possible. She did when I told her I don't eat shellfish or pork many years ago, and now she doesn't even make these things around me. I'd be saving both her and myself a lot of embarrassment by in private letting her know that things are different this year, and here is how she and I can work together on it, get it out of the way, and just have an uninterrupted family time.

Like I said, this particular situation is not one of those where things cannot be worked out in advance. It's different if I am invited to a party full of strangers, etc, but I also like to be accomodating, polite, and thankful.
Again, I realize this situation is not one where the original post applies. I am sorry. I am finding myself having to do a lot more explaining here :D than I'd even projected myself explaining in a polite little e-mail. ;) Isn't there room here for different situations to have different dynamics? Or are my only alternatives to repeat no thank-you robotically, or bring a huge tray of food I made and only eat that.

I just do believe in give and take. And yes, if I were allergic or truly sensitive to a substance, I believe it's courteous to let the person who will be spending hours in a kitchen not to put said substances in anything I'll eat ;)

[Ariannah]

ReneeSC, RP, Sharon, and everyone else who answered,

It's late here, so I'll just type a quick response to all of you - thanks as well for all of your additional input. My goal with these dear people is to be firm, loving, and kind. To provide only as much information as is necessary, and yes, I will bring along something nice for the family to share as well. We really treasure these times together, and they are so loving and generous with everything, and I want to be that way right back.

thank you Sharon for posting that tip in the first place. I was able to avoid muffins this evening, and be polite at the same time just by doing that. I only had to say "no thank you" and smile, twice.

[ReneeSC]

Why do you feel you need to explain to "us?" We already understand!

There are too many different social situations for any _one_ avenue to work. We were just throwing stuff out there for anyone to read. I wasn't directing what I said to you, Raw - but to anyone.
I've already encountered the "food thing" in a public venue a few times.

I just know if it were my own family - its particular dynamics - that it would be different at every single person's house.

So, we'd just call ahead of time ( or however you'd communicate ) and be gentle on ourselves.
_______________________________
I have been invited to a CHEF'S house. He doesn't speak English. His wife is a PHARMACIST. And...for the expressed purpose for _him_ to fix _us_ an authentic Chinese cuisine.

So.. how would Miss Manners handle that one..huh???

A string of "no, thank you's" are not going to be appropriate. I only have a few viable choices.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Does anyone know to which address I can write to Miss Manners with these particular questions? I'd love to see what she has to offer about eating raw in a cooked world.