Is anyone going to comment on the recent shocking news...

[Tirza]

Maybe it's not to be discussed because it can be so controversial and give rise to so many agitated feelings...

But I am totally shocked at the sudden "coming-out" of several raw leaders at once with the news that they are not totally raw, or even totally vegan.

I am appalled at what seems like a wimpish capitulation of several others, nodding sagely and agreeing with those who are "experimenting" with things like goats milk etc. - almost on a whim - and saying they will continue to do it now and then "because it tasted good and didn't make them feel bad" - with absolutely NO proof that it was the best thing for them to do.

The vegetarian/vegan crowd has been saying similar things to us for a long time already. "It won't hurt-it could help." Please!

I think I am so flabbergasted that I'm not sure if I can gather my thoughts together enough to make an intelligent response!

And here I thought I was going to find out why a certain green smoothie lady had gained so much weight back. I wanted to know-I wanted help. I heard no answer to my question. Instead, I see several leaders calmly accepting the new - what - "philosophy"?

I can tell you, I was SO GLAD that Alissa wasn't one of them. I have a renewed appreciation for the firm guidelines on this site - to keep it on track for a stated purpose for those who are looking for it. I wonder what those other people are going to do now - I see no reason for them to have unique websites, lectures, tours, books, stores....they should throw their lot in with some very nice and well-meaning vegetarian/vegan organizations and be done with it.

While I agree that everyone certainly has a choice and they should do what they believe is the best for their bodies, I am afraid to imagine the effect that these announcements are going to have on people who have been trying to get healthier and were on the way to incorporating more and more fresh raw organic vegan foods into their diets. Now they may lose their motivation. I won't be snarky and say they are wimps anyway if they can be so easily influenced. Not at all. They are all people who are looking for better health and now they are set adrift by people who had built up credibility.

Enough? Okay. Sorry.

[lovenlife]

Tirza, I echo some of your sentiments...sentiments..um oh well whatever they are. I had not been ignoring it but definitely knocked for a loop wondering how on earth...?????

Anyway I just had a discussion with one such raw guru yesterday who recently began posting a lot of stuff about buffalo(are not these endangered???edit...ooops I stand corrected) stew and venison and.goat?..well unmentionables here. I did find it gross and it made me feel sick.

The reason given was that the total raw no longer held him over and was not filling his need for "optimal health". Also that he wasnt a heartless and unethical killer of animals (he let someone else kill them).

I had to accept what he said and let him be, which is prob the only way to handle such comments and choices.

This is right after I had been talking to someone about the Earthlings movie.

Hmmm optimal health=putting dead carcasses into ones body? How can that be? ~as she scratches her head and leaves a bare spot~

I guess it applies again..to live and let live. If we are not following them, we wont be swayed by what they do,nor be alarmed???. I dont know.

[DopeRawAbundance]

Who are these raw leaders and what are the raw crimes they're being accused of?

All I have to say is that you could never make me believe consuming goat tit secretions is essential to my survival.

[lovenlife]

hahahah I just KNEW you would have a funny answer..I was awaitn for it!

no names to protect the innocent until proven innocent...hahaha just kiddin ,as they are all coming on out with their cooking pots and their lobster aprons on....hahahaha

[Tsurugi_Oni]

You should post some links to who exactly abandoned their philosophy.

I shall hold back all controversial comments until more comment............. :D

[lovenlife]

guess they want us all to know because it is out there public bigtime right? edited now for AMii question

Frankie Gs twitter place said
Frank GiglioMy roommate is bring home some local goat meat... Thinking of the perfect blend of spices to cook with "the other red meat"via Twitter -3 hours ago
I didnt watch it but he made a video of making venison stew. He also has posted cooking videos too...huh.



...and we know Victoria Boutenko, the queen of Green smoothies said to Matt monarch on his interview that she isnt all raw...also is teaching her children to cook for when and if they meet their life partner who wants cooked food. She didnt really say what gained all the weight back just that she was never able to lose it (again) and that she has come to a place of losing it now, but it appears to include cooked foods from what she said.She no longer considers all raw working for her or something like that.

...and Paul Nisson eating some raw dairy...no crimes committed...just whats hapnin.



Video posted by Frankie today..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84cUsBW-8u4

You know something funnny? I have never changed my position. My body NEVER wanted all raw right from the beginning until now. I was never in that "box". Yet I am livin on live foods and lovin it!!! yay!

[Amii]

How are we supposed to comment if we don't know who the OP is on about. Name the names!

[Mindy Sue]

YES! We want names! :eek:

[lovenlife]

ooops I edited my post above to speak of those who have changed their raw stance.

[Amii]

Victoria Boutenko is no longer 100%? That's probably the most depressing thing I've heard all week. She is meant to be one of THE raw food gurus...

[lovenlife]

Nope. Well we do what we do, not because of what someone else does,then when things change, then we dont get our undies all up in a bunch as Doperaw says...hahaha

Everyone, no matter who they are, get to CHOOSE>and this looks like just the beginning I think.

[freshlight]

who cares? why should we get shocked or depressed by decisions the others make for themselves? It's their life and their prob.

It doesn't make raw less beautiful, it doesn't change anything at all.

[Amii]

But in this context, the OP has a point. I actually have "Raw Family" sat right next to me and she harps on and on inside it about how the tiniest bit of cooked food will "awaken a monster" or something like that. To hear that they're sliding back into cooked food is kind of discouraging and sort of questions everything they insisted about cooked/raw. You know?

[Sir Lunchalot]

...and we know Victoria Boutenko, the queen of Green smoothies said to Matt monarch on his interview that she isnt all raw...also is teaching her children to cook for when and if they meet their life partner who wants cooked food. She didnt really say what gained all the weight back just that she was never able to lose it (again) and that she has come to a place of losing it now, but it appears to include cooked foods from what she said.She no longer considers all raw working for her or something like that.

]

I just purchased and reviewed the "Raw for Life" DVD. And Victoria Boutenko was featured in part of the DVD. She was visibly overweight which didn't suprise me given what Karen Knowler had said about the rawfood lifestyle. She (Karen) said she'd been at her heaviest and lightest on a raw food lifestyle, though she clearly looks as though she's resolved any outstanding weight issues.

I think that if I cap my seeds and nuts and stick to fruits, veggies, sprouted legumes and grains and exercise regularly, that should do it. That's based on what is going on now with me and also happens to be what I have heard from a number of posters. I'm using a one ounce limit per day for all high fat (e.g. nuts and seeds) and using no oils at least until I get to my ideal weight. I'm also limiting high sugar fruits like bananas and mangos to one serving per day. So far, I'm happy with my results.

If Paul Nisson wants to drink goat's milk, that's fine with me. I know I will never drink or eat any animal products because a large part of why I want to be vegan is ethical and environmental. And those factors will guarantee to me that I will never stray.

Andrew

[lovenlife]

The raw journey for me has been one of constant change..good thing I didnt put my book out yet...hahahaha

The way one starts off might not be how they end up. It happens and life changes. And someone might see that what they are doing clearly isnt working for them and change it up.

I dont see myself eating meat ever again. One can never say never right?

If for some reason you found yourself starving and it was that rabbit or you..would ones ethics let them starve to death....can you say never? I dont know.

Just food for thought. Life is what it is right and I eat only plant material now but we know not of what we face in the future.

[T-Bird]

If for some reason you found yourself starving and it was that rabbit or you..would ones ethics let them starve to death....can you say never? I dont know.

I can. I wouldn't feel any difference between killing that rabbit for food and killing my own children. It's the same to me.

I haven't touched any flesh food in over 23 years......more than 1/2 my life really.

never again with tofu? I'm not saying:p

[EZ rider]

the sudden "coming-out" of several raw leaders at once with the news that they are not totally raw, or even totally vegan.

I think one possible explanation is similar to what I have experienced in my raw journey. I went all raw vegan on Aug 1, 07 and went 10 months without any appreciable problems and then I "slipped". One bite lead to another and I saw my percentages slip away until at about 6 weeks into my slip my percentages were quite dismal. I then realized that I could no longer ignore the return of my pre-raw health conditions that included aches and pains, a general feeling of malaise, depression and weight gain. I started over on raw and clawed my way back, by the way it was harder the second time and I don't know why this happens. I had forgotten about how I felt pre-raw and had to be reminded. Maybe this is what is happening to the leaders you are referring to and if so they will probably continue down the slippery slope until they acknowledge the health difference between raw and not so raw. To bring my journey's path up to date after I got back to raw I regained my raw health benefits and went along for another 14 months and yielded to a slight temptation for a SAD "treat". History repeated itself and down I went bite by bite each day my percentages getting worse then the previous day. Once again I started over and this last time was the hardest yet to claw my way back up the slippery slope and get back on the happy & healthy raw trail. Now I remind myself daily why I went raw and the lessons I have learned from my slips. I don't want my history lesson repeated again. Maybe the leaders in question are caught up in their own history lesson ?

[lovenlife]

ezrider, I was thinking that same thing. This is only the beginning of their trip down this road. Will they go a ways down and get yanked up by all of their old health issues returning?

Or is this a result of seeing how they started down this road and are now on it for a while?

I cant see how they can feel as light and airy and fresh on flesh products? The body will show this in time.

The long term results will show. Let us not knot our knickers yet as doperaw would say.

[freshlight]

But in this context, the OP has a point. I actually have "Raw Family" sat right next to me and she harps on and on inside it about how the tiniest bit of cooked food will "awaken a monster" or something like that. To hear that they're sliding back into cooked food is kind of discouraging and sort of questions everything they insisted about cooked/raw. You know?

discouraging? no way. I don't understand how some mistakes the others make can be discouraging for you. It can only happen if you are not 100% convinced of what you are doing.

Just keep enjoying raw, it's so good and it's so simple :)

[Tirza]

If I found myself starving, I would eat what I could find. It is of course far more important to live a little longer so you can carry on from there. Very few things should be worthy of giving up your life for. Food isn't one of them. Food should enrich your life, and not destroy it...which is (HELLO!) why we are all on this path in the first place!!!

I didn't used to think that way, but my thinking was being influenced by a radical religious viewpoint. Unfortunately, the people who are now no longer Raw or Vegan are classifying all who ARE Raw and Vegan as cultists. I have since come to realize that diet is not a religion. Or as my husband used to call it, "The Gastronomic Gospel" Ha!

As far as Victoria teaching her children to cook because that will be easier on some future mate...OH BOY - I wouldn't think that THOSE kids would have a hard time finding a good mate with the same goals and compatible lifestyle - them having been Raw Vegan Royalty, almost....! THAT is exactly the reason I lamely used when I went from Vegan to raising my own chicken, cow, goat in the 80's. Stupid. If you have a life philosophy that you believe in, you find people to marry who are in agreement or at least very open minded and tolerant. You don't purposely plan to let down your standards. I can't believe this. There is SO much more involved here than just a diet as we have been so often told by these very same people. They really could not have believed it was the best thing if they can now discard it for such a reason. Well, I'm back to vegan now, but my kids aren't. Even though they still default to habits they learned while growing up. That freedom to move around anywhere in society in comfort that my kids gained has not done any of them a bit of good. More like damage instead. Bad Mommy. Stupid Mommy.

I asked what these people were going to do now that they can't claim to be proponents of this unique diet any longer. I guess I have my answer. They already had it in place. Paul Nison has his Daylight Diet, Victoria has her Green Smoothies both of which are very good in themselves. As for the rest, I don't know... I see other's sites, but I don't focus on them so much as I find pretty much all I need here - and more - for the implementation of this diet/lifestyle. I mean LOOK at all the topics here! Amazing!

I STILL don't have a good explanation for Victoria's weight gain. She was heavy before Raw. She got heavy again WITH Raw. Does she think she is going to get light now? How about her arrhythmia and arthritis that she claimed was cured with Raw...?

ANOTHER time I applaud Alissa for holding the line here.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

If everyone chose death over killing an animal, we would have died out a long time ago during the ice age. If we made it past that era we'd probably still be stuck in the jungle. Could one watch their child starve when the chance for survival was sitting right there? Do you know what happens to creatures that don't adapt? They die. And not pleasantly might I add.

Ughhhh........ some of u guys kill me.............

I really wanna know WHY these raw foodists went to cook. Nutritionally? To fit in (doubt it). I think it must be nutritionally.

[Amii]

I'm wondering why raw isn't "working" for her anymore. Can't be as wonderful as we all think it is...?

[D'vorah]

As for buffalo, no, they are not endangered; buffalo that is available for purchase has been raised for that purpose, just like cattle. I don't eat cow, I woudn't eat buffalo.

As for including cooked, if we're eating a lot of nuts and seeds, chances are good we're eating at least some cooked ourselves. It's possible to find some raw sources for some nuts and seeds, but if I buy local, I have no certainty (beyond trusting my grocer or hfs) that they are, actually, raw. Nutritional yeast? Not raw. Some of the sweetners? Not raw.

And, if we're looking for perfection in our gurus, we have two problems; one, we're asking fallible human beings to be perfect, and two, we're hanging an awful lot of significance on what someone else does.

The fact is, there are no viable long-term science based studies on the results of any purely raw diet and certainly no studies that compare one version of raw to another (with seeds and nuts / without seeds and nuts / high fat / low fat / superfoods, etc, etc, etc). Anyone can write a book on raw diet saying pretty much anything they want to and base it upon anecdotal evidence, which carries a lot of weight in the raw food movement, because anecdotals is what we have. Those that have the smarts to conduct such a long-term reliable studies don't seem to have the drive to follow through.

People have repeatedly had posts pulled for talking about Doug or others; this board isn't about Paul or Victoria or anyone else, so, why are we having this talk at all? What does it have to do with Alissa? I personally don't want to see another thread that goes on and on and bashes Victoria for her weight. That's not what this board is here for.

Deborah

[lovenlife]

It is only in our expectations of others that we are disappointed.


or Franks words...
....Holding expectations of others can lead to being let down....

[Revvell]

Those that have the smarts to conduct such a long-term reliable studies don't seem to have the drive to follow through.


Actually, in my interview on Let's Talk Raw (http://bit.ly/aGOSx) with Fred Bisci, 40+ year raw food vegan, is doing just that. He's currently getting the funds together.

[Tirza]

Absolutely, lovenlife!

God forbid that we should bash Victoria. I have met her and she is one of the sweetest women! She is so sincere and I know what she is doing is an outgrowth of that sincerity, even if we question its accuracy, logic or validity.

Her weight must be a very big trial to her and if she really can't control it or know what caused it, she should be encouraged and supported. But to close our eyes and pretend it isn't happening isn't responsible on our parts either. We need to know the problems and their solution, not to just go parroting what we don't know for sure. I have a weight problem myself. Serious. That is why I am so shaken over this as I want - NEED a solution. I also have cancer. I got it while I was eating cooked and dairy and some meat - who knows, it could have even started back when I was a Cooked Vegan. I thought if any dietary change would help, it must be this. As I reach for that goal, I want to get answers. I want to see results. Not just hear talk.

God bless Victoria. If she just encourages people to get more greens with the use of smoothies, she has already done a lot of good. But is that MY answer? To go back to organic goat milk etc. To cook? I'm still cooking some. It's NOT making me feel better.

I haven't gotten to the 100% goal with Raw. I want to. I need to learn from people who do.

[D'vorah]

Actually, in my interview on Let's Talk Raw (http://bit.ly/aGOSx) with Fred Bisci, 40+ year raw food vegan, is doing just that. He's currently getting the funds together.

Awesome! I'm really glad!

Deborah

[Tsurugi_Oni]

It's like having religious leaders tell ur their religion was a hoax. Or leading climateologists telling you that their global warming theory was contrived. We look towards leaders because they understand. And when the understanding of our mentors is fallable, then what does that say about what we learned from them?

[Clare]

people - please listen to the interview of Victoria Boutenko before you make any judgements. She explains herself very well. If she is telling the truth, she hasn't "slipped back" into cooked food, nor did she ever say that raw wasn't working for her. My understanding was that she doesn't want to be too dogmatic with raw that she can't have steamed asparagus that her oldest son makes her when she goes to his place. She experimented with steamed veg to get her fat down when she researched chimp diets and rediscovered blended greens. She decided to try limiting fat instead of allowing herself unlimited heavy raw dishes. It sounded to me like she is looking for emotional/physical balance. Valya and Sergei didn't like eating the cooked veg so they decided to stop after a few tries. Victoria said she now has a steamed vegetable 1-2 times/month if I recall. She says she exercises every day with long hikes and other activity but has become extremely efficient in her metabolism and cannot eat anywhere near what she could when she first lost the weight with raw...anyway, that is what I remember, so please go listen on Matt Monarch's site and decide for yourself. At least she is being honest. It is far more terrible to imagine a raw food leader secretly eating a different diet than they teach, which could be happening with others.

[lovenlife]

GO FRED!

Tirza, I understand your concern. I am not sure what Victoria has as her challenge with weight. I think she said in the interview with Matt that she was eating alot. Now she eats only a couple meals a day.

If what you are doing is working and you feel good then keep on doing it! And get well!!!!

Thankx Clare for the Clare-ity. We posted the same time so I just read yours. I heard the interview too! Yes she def isnt against raw or anything, she just eats some cooked..not really an earth shattering happenstance! her challenge with her weight has been her metab. I am happy things are going better for her.

[Tirza]

Well put, Turugi_Oni,

We shouldn't elevate people so high but we do. We are a race who obviously needs leaders and we want to know we can trust that at least THEY believe what they are teaching. We are still responsible to do our best to find out, but these people are Full Time studying, selling us their products, which in turn continues to fund them. We have a right to know if they are giving us the straight goods.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Post the video/audio of the interview. I'll watch.

[Tirza]

Post the video/audio of the interview. I'll watch.

Me too. But they only offered a free listen for a short time like 24 hours or something. Now it costs $10. For something causing this much consternation - to have to PAY?

I went on to the Gianni site as they were going to interview her and I thought I could watch the show. Instead, they just alluded to it with no real concrete information except to admire and support their honesty and to say you should just do what makes you feel good at the time. I posted some of my concerns in a "nice" way as they asked - honestly - and they deleted it. So...

OOPS - moves one foot from the mouth, inserts the other one - I just saw that my comments were on the actual YouTube site, NOT on their Renegade Health Show site comments. Sorry. Didn't mean to slander anyone. You're all good people, and I'm trying to be too.

Matt Monarch was supposed to be posting the interview, but he just talked about his car accident with a 10 second mention about the interview.

Hmmmm.

[lovenlife]

I am so very happy I chose my own way. This personally does not change anything i have been doing or not doing. I set no leaders nor follow them. For this I feel so grateful

I know how fallible ANY human is. I liked the idea of raw and did it my way like Frank Sinatra. I follow no raw guru nor specific set ideas. I go across and all over the board, following only my body and what it wants in true freedom!

What IF and only WHAT if...Alissa chose a different way? She does what she does now, not to say later she might do different. Not saying she will. You never know.

Its a good idea to make YOUR raw way based on how you want raw to be. Then we are not carried hither and tither and rocked and swayed by any of these things.

[lovenlife]

Me too. But they only offered a free listen for a short time like 24 hours or something. Now it costs $10. For something causing this much consternation - to have to PAY?

yes it is free for twenty four hours and then to purchase

[Tirza]

lovenlife, you are likely right on. I will just get on with it.

[lovenlife]

I just KNEW you would TIRZA! We real and everyday living real life humans are still here (on our couches and raw kitchens, not on any pedestals nor looking to them) and having a raw royal ball with a feast!

Lets keep on living a great raw life and be EVER so grateful we found it!!! yay!

We are here to support you in your cancer and whatever assist you may need as well.

[Revvell]

At least they're telling their truth. Many have been lying for years about being 100%. That's the one thing I've loved about Victoria. She's always said exactly what's been going on for and with her and her family. She's always been honest about her weight. She's a good woman.

You talk about looking towards them because "they understand"? Well, time we did.


It's like having religious leaders tell ur their religion was a hoax. Or leading climateologists telling you that their global warming theory was contrived. We look towards leaders because they understand. And when the understanding of our mentors is fallable, then what does that say about what we learned from them?

[lovenlife]

hooray for TRUTH...you got that right Revvell! She IS a very good woman!

For me, I have always told the truth and been happy I listen to my body for what I need. Truth rules supreme!

as I write this, I am waiting for my strawberry rhubarb sauce to cool..ahhhhhh

[freshlight]

It's like having religious leaders tell ur their religion was a hoax. Or leading climateologists telling you that their global warming theory was contrived. We look towards leaders because they understand. And when the understanding of our mentors is fallable, then what does that say about what we learned from them?

religious leaders?

become your own leader in everything you do and you'll start feeling your inner strength. It's inside you, you don't NEED any leaders at all imo.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

To an extent I guess. To me a book is a leader. A leader is something that has a ton of invested energy based around a principle. While many of us are scatterbrained by the happenings of daily life some focus devote their entire lives to a "cause". Many of us are walking along blazed trails, and who are we not to take heed of warnings of those further down the road?

I mean, if a raw foodist figurehead is willing to drink goats milk (renowned as mucous forming, animal product, de-mineralizing, allergen), then what does that say about his gained understanding? Did he faulter, or did he evolve? These are things we should try to deeply understand. But then again this forum is strictly about Alissa's book so......

[D'vorah]

Yes Dvorah...if we hold someone up to perfection, then we are let down when they dont meet our standard of perfection?

This post didnt bash Victoria as I have seen...(maybe I didnt look hard enough) (?) She is great! Weall just could not say that with our green smoothie smiles on for sure!




No, this post did not, but I remember a past thread that went on and on about it, the energy wasn't good.

Maybe I shouldn't have brought that back up.

Deborah

[lovenlife]

me thinks ...no evolve...I would be demoted health wise...mucous, allergen, stuffy,eeeeeeeek

The afteraffects of this new way will be seen. Let us hold steady our course of what works for us and wait and watch (or not)while this experiment goes on.

Hear ye hear ye....Let the experiments commence! And I wont buy the second book either....~as she heads to the bank~

[D'vorah]

I am so very happy I chose my own way. This personally does not change anything i have been doing or not doing. I set no leaders nor follow them. For this I feel so grateful

I know how fallible ANY human is. I liked the idea of raw and did it my way like Frank Sinatra. I follow no raw guru nor specific set ideas. I go across and all over the board, following only my body and what it wants in true freedom!



I think this is a great approach.

Deborah

[klomasius]

Not surprised and not rocked by this news.

Firstly, it's understandable that people who have been doing this for years are looked to for answers, it's unerstandable we may seek to interact with/discuss/read about the experiences of people who have been raw for many more years than us.

But this simple human need should not be tranferred to a worship, or a blind following of ANY raw 'guru' no matter who they may be.

People gain experience, but throughout their lives they also make mistakes. 'Gurus', 'leaders' or otherwise, these people are on their own journey, and we should look to them (if we need to at all) for inspiration not dogmatic rules and regulations.

This is where we keep harping on about LISTENING to your own body, making decisions based on how you feel and your key health indicators. No one else feels how it feels to be inside your body (how your heart pumps, all the little aches, pains or lack thereof and all the other things only we can experience first hand). This is why YOU are uniquely equipped to be your own best guru and this is why YOU should be doing the research, testing the waters, seeing how your body responds to different things.

What does this mean for me? I've thrived on a vegan diet for 12 years, not about to go back to drinking milk and eating meat again that's for sure!

Raw vegan has worked wonders for me for years, we'll see if it works for me for many years more, but I won't be too dogmatic about it: life is about freedom rather than worry and regulations.

Try not to let things like this affect your own inner path, blaze your own trail and you'll only have yourself to answer to. :)

p.s. I ADORE Victoria! I'm going to adore her no matter what path she decides to take.

[snoops]

Yanno what I like...that this thread was allowed to evolve and has ended up with us all pretty much sticking to the original point of the forum. Yea us.

[michigan roman]

this is an indicator that weve not perfected the raw food pyramid

somethings missing

my guess is its in the vitamin b family

im thusly now serious about soaking wheat / grains and
drinking the soaking water for its b vitamins

then after 2 / 3 days eating the grain sprouts like rice
by mixing in vegis / herbs / spices / fruit or their juices / etc

also more sprouts ide think would be good for most

bottom lines is there doesnt seem to be anyone getting it
perfect and able to lead people in a precise manner to
quickly getting what they need to feel great on a raw vegan
diet , so to me alot of experimenting away from the main
stream raw foods is called for

it could be one plant like limes were found to solve scurvy

[brendasue]

I learned many years ago to never say "never" because it will come back and bite you on the *&*((.

I'm wondering why everyone is so shocked. Isn't this journey a process? How many of us have come on here and confessed about falling away from raw food? This is not an easy life style and down the road some of you may change the way you feel and decide something else is better.

To me eating raw is about health, not about animal rights. It makes me stop and reconsider this forum and how closed minded and unbending people have become.

Like it or not we are all still living on the same planet. The raw food lifestyle is a very tiny group of people and if you want it to grow this type of attitude isn't going to bring more people in. Your sounding like fanatics and that's scary.

Just food for thought

B

[DopeRawAbundance]

Oh and wowow. Raw, cooked, veggies, meat, sprouts? What are we supposed to eat? And wait a damn minute what are we again? AHHHHHH WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT WE ARE OR WHAT TO EAT.

[Green_Woman]

To me eating raw is about health, not about animal rights. It makes me stop and reconsider this forum and how closed minded and unbending people have become.

Uhhh.... hmmmmm.... :rolleyes:

Dope: LOL... you are such a young punk!

I like those who've said, "Don't put humans on a pedestal, and those humans won't disappoint you."

I've lived my whole life putting frail humans on god-pedestals... it just doesn't work.


I quote Alissa now: "Relax. Eat RAW. And live!"

Hope I got that quote right. ;)

[RawKnitster]

I think one possible explanation is similar to what I have experienced in my raw journey. I went all raw vegan on Aug 1, 07 and went 10 months without any appreciable problems and then I "slipped". One bite lead to another and I saw my percentages slip away until at about 6 weeks into my slip my percentages were quite dismal. I then realized that I could no longer ignore the return of my pre-raw health conditions that included aches and pains, a general feeling of malaise, depression and weight gain. I started over on raw and clawed my way back, by the way it was harder the second time and I don't know why this happens. I had forgotten about how I felt pre-raw and had to be reminded. Maybe this is what is happening to the leaders you are referring to and if so they will probably continue down the slippery slope until they acknowledge the health difference between raw and not so raw. To bring my journey's path up to date after I got back to raw I regained my raw health benefits and went along for another 14 months and yielded to a slight temptation for a SAD "treat". History repeated itself and down I went bite by bite each day my percentages getting worse then the previous day. Once again I started over and this last time was the hardest yet to claw my way back up the slippery slope and get back on the happy & healthy raw trail. Now I remind myself daily why I went raw and the lessons I have learned from my slips. I don't want my history lesson repeated again. Maybe the leaders in question are caught up in their own history lesson ?

Agreed!!! Been there, done that. Not doing it again. Not one bite!!!

[D'vorah]

I'm wondering why everyone is so shocked.




Not everyone is.

Deborah

[RawKnitster]

I'm sad for them, but not outraged. They have both been on a long raw journey. As with any journey, sometimes we take a wrong turn.

As for Paul Nison and his ideas.... I stopped watching his show early on, when he started cacao bashing. Daylight diet is not in my vocabulary.

I adore Victoria. I've met her twice (both times this year). I was very drawn to her as a person. I saw an underlying sadness in her face. Whether that has anything to do with her diet issues I couldn't say. Despite how much I like her, the raw advice she gives does not suit me. She insists that smoothies be pure fruit and greens. Great for cleansing, but in my opinion, not enough nutrients for a long term diet.

I know that at this time, simple foods are not enough to keep me strong or raw. I need gourmet raw in the mix. I also need super green food powders in my green smoothies for extra nutrients, and a couple Tablespoons of nutritional yeast (B family) 2-3 times a week. Makes me think Roman is right. Nutrients were missing from their raw choices.

[Revvell]

I'm wondering why everyone is so shocked.


Nope! Not everyone. Learned many moons ago when Nomi Shannon told me on Rawkin' Radio that after 8 years 100% that she wasn't anymore. *shrugs* None of my biz.

[freshlight]

To an extent I guess. To me a book is a leader. A leader is something that has a ton of invested energy based around a principle. While many of us are scatterbrained by the happenings of daily life some focus devote their entire lives to a "cause". Many of us are walking along blazed trails, and who are we not to take heed of warnings of those further down the road?

a good book is like a good friend but leader? No. Our learning power is within and YOU are the one who gives the book that power, it can never come from someone else. We (you) are the key to success and that's the good news.


I mean, if a raw foodist figurehead is willing to drink goats milk (renowned as mucous forming, animal product, de-mineralizing, allergen), then what does that say about his gained understanding? Did he faulter, or did he evolve? These are things we should try to deeply understand.

why should I waste my time on doing that? It's her/his problem and we have enough things to deal with, don't we? He or she can try to deeply understand it if she/he wants to, not me. That's the way I see it. To each his own.

[T-Bird]

To me eating raw is about health, not about animal rights. It makes me stop and reconsider this forum and how closed minded and unbending people have become.

To me, veganism is a moral and ethical choice. And it really annoys me that non-ethical vegans think that that should never be mentioned, because they themselves don't personally share the belief.

No ones asking you to embrace it or defend it. But stop acting like no one has the right to have and express those ideals.

[lovenlife]

Yanno what I like...that this thread was allowed to evolve and has ended up with us all pretty much sticking to the original point of the forum. Yea us.

bravo...and ditto. I see this as a discussion that is very productive to us, a good way to say how we feel, a soliadrity of sorts on our agreement to walk our own path and listen to our own bodies.

I see this thread as such a VICTORY OF ALL THAT IS POSSIBLE IN PEACEFUL DISCUSSIONS IN HONOR AND RESPECT!! WE SURE ROCK I TELL YA!




I'm wondering why everyone is so shocked I am personally not shocked at all. I actually saw this coming. I did.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

What's so crazy about eating insects? They're one of the most pure forms of nutrition you can get, some have b12, and they're easy to get. You don't think man included these in his diet on even a minimalist level?


a good book is like a good friend but leader? No. Our learning power is within and YOU are the one who gives the book that power, it can never come from someone else. We (you) are the key to success and that's the good news.

Ok true...

I mean, if a raw foodist figurehead is willing to drink goats milk (renowned as mucous forming, animal product, de-mineralizing, allergen), then what does that say about his gained understanding? Did he faulter, or did he evolve? These are things we should try to deeply understand.

why should I waste my time on doing that? It's her/his problem and we have enough things to deal with, don't we? He or she can try to deeply understand it if she/he wants to, not me. That's the way I see it. To each his own.

But if Einstein told you some of his theories weren't fully worked out, would you not give him any notice? Or what if a trained engineer said that your building wasn't safe? I don't look at what they did as a problem, but something to understand. If they've faultered, then blames on them. Milk and cheese are tasty. But if they found that goat milk is a missing nutritional link, then we need to redefine what our diet is. Or maybe we have to understand what he found "easily" in goat's milk that some of you guys found in other sources. What we need to do is understand. Anything else is blind dogma.

[katchmoleen]

Did he falter, or did he evolve? These are things we should try to deeply understand.


I agree with this. I have always kept an open mind from the day I went raw, that if something wasn't working for me, I would change it. When people ask me if I am always going to eat this way, I reply that I can't imagine not doing so as long as it is working for me. If it isn't, I would try every raw vegan thing I knew to fix it. But I am an enthusiastic raw vegan, not a dogmatic raw vegan. I save that for my religious beliefs.:D

[katchmoleen]

my differentiation was that I wont spend time or energy in research or investigation into what someome else is doing or not.

But aren't most of us here in the first place because we looked into what someone else is doing? I know I am.

I wonder about Storm Tallifero....he has been a raw vegan for over 30 years, is in his 60s and still looks amazing. I wonder if he has had to tweek and if he has talked about it. Inquiring minds want to know. I wonder if the difference is exercise. I know I watched the video of Paul Nisson outing himself, and my thought was that he did NOT look healthy or vibrant and I would NOT use him as a role model. Storm, on the other hand.......

Now I am rambling, lol!

[lovenlife]

OOOO yes I see your point. Again to make clear. I observe others yes and see what works for them and doesnt. I just wont research and spend a ton of energy on it...you see?

I am thinking we both agree(but tis ok if we dont cuz u r you n I am me)...cuz u know I just LOVE you and your posts here! You add soooo much value!

Stormlooks like a cutie to me too.

Yes I have seen very unhealthy looking raw vegans tooooo!

[Green_Woman]

She insists that smoothies be pure fruit and greens. Great for cleansing, but in my opinion, not enough nutrients for a long term diet.

In order for the optimal effect from Green Smoothies, yes, it needs to be only GREENS + FRUIT...

Get your gourmet from OTHER foods... let your Green Smoothies be pure.

But, on that note, on her Website, GREEN FOR LIFE, Victoria actually says that it's up to YOU what you put in them...

[Tsurugi_Oni]

What do people add in their green smoothies besides fruits and veggies?

[lovenlife]

Veggies and fruit dont mix well for me. I never put veg in my smoothie unless there is no fruit (and that I make as soup instead)

Greens, loads of them Victoria, the queen of green smoothies, says that greens, leafies, do not qualitfy as a veggie. That is why they are allowed and complement the fruit well. It is amazing!

Bananas
Hemp seeds
Coconut oil
Shredded coconut
flax oil
bee pollen
goji

I load it for action packed energy and nutrition for the day and awaaaaay I go!
..and the beat goes on

anything your lil heart desires in theyah! yum yum

[Honchcrow]

What do people add in their green smoothies besides fruits and veggies?

water!, agave. Sometimes a little ginger.

[lovenlife]

ooooooooooops I forgot water, no wonder my blenders keep dying....hahaha just kidding..I fo-got to list water! veeeerrry important!

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Since when are green leafies not vegetables??? What counts as a vegetable then?

[lovenlife]

If you read Victorias green smoothie book you will lunderstand this thought. Greens are in a category all by themselves.....it is an incred book, what turned me raw! Thank you thank you.

Veggies are all else...the veggies. Do what works best for your body though!

[kaybee]

To me, veganism is a moral and ethical choice. And it really annoys me that non-ethical vegans think that that should never be mentioned, because they themselves don't personally share the belief.

No ones asking you to embrace it or defend it. But stop acting like no one has the right to have and express those ideals.

T-bird--

Well said. Thanks for chiming in with that... Ive been recently finding myself on other raw foods boards experiencing the same sort of frustration(?)/defensiveness(?) you are expressing here... Of course i want to be healthy and i want others to be healthy, and people do it for their own reasons, but i personally came to be raw vegan for my health after being ethical vegan for the sake of compassion for many years. Maybe its just my perception of things changing, but when I first started toying with raw foods, it seemed that many people were in it BOTH for their health AND for the sake of compassion...now I see an anti-ethical-vegan trend emerging in many raw-type discussions... v. frustrating. At least this board is vegan though :) many others arent and thus can outright attack the vegan diet itself along with attacking ethical vegans views.

kaybee

[freshlight]

But if Einstein told you some of his theories weren't fully worked out, would you not give him any notice? Or what if a trained engineer said that your building wasn't safe? I don't look at what they did as a problem, but something to understand.

and I don't think all those "raw gurus", like you call them, are Einsteins. Going raw is something natural and everybody can do it if they want to. Rawfoodism is not a science (thank Goodness) and that's why it's so simple and beautiful.


If they've faultered, then blames on them. Milk and cheese are tasty.

are you serious? well, not to me


But if they found that goat milk is a missing nutritional link, then we need to redefine what our diet is. Or maybe we have to understand what he found "easily" in goat's milk that some of you guys found in other sources. What we need to do is understand. Anything else is blind dogma.[/QUOTE]

no dogma here, it's natures law.

Sounds like you are not 100% convinced in the vegan raw lifestyle, which is ok. Otherwise you wouldn't question it so much. Just do whatever feels right to you. To me it's RAW that feels best.

[freshlight]

To me, veganism is a moral and ethical choice. And it really annoys me that non-ethical vegans think that that should never be mentioned, because they themselves don't personally share the belief.

No ones asking you to embrace it or defend it. But stop acting like no one has the right to have and express those ideals.

wonderful post, T-Bird, thanks!

[T-Bird]

Well said. Thanks for chiming in with that... Ive been recently finding myself on other raw foods boards experiencing the same sort of frustration(?)/defensiveness(?) you are expressing here... Of course i want to be healthy and i want others to be healthy, and people do it for their own reasons, but i personally came to be raw vegan for my health after being ethical vegan for the sake of compassion for many years.

Me too.:)


Maybe its just my perception of things changing, but when I first started toying with raw foods, it seemed that many people were in it BOTH for their health AND for the sake of compassion...now I see an anti-ethical-vegan trend emerging in many raw-type discussions... v. frustrating. At least this board is vegan though many others arent and thus can outright attack the vegan diet itself along with attacking ethical vegans views.

Yeah - if you're not into for moral reasons, fine. But why be so down on those that are? Like we can't mention it or we're "weirdos" We've been vegan alot longer!:). We invented it! You're welcome!:D

[T-Bird]

wonderful post, T-Bird, thanks!

Glad I'm not the only one! Thanks guys!

[meow]

We're all just humans, right? We're all on our own ever-changing life journeys, even those of us who others look up to as "gurus". I'll admit it's disappointing to hear that some long-term raw fooders apparently don't get the results they desire, but I think that as long as what YOU'RE doing is working for YOU, that's what matters.

I like Victoria Boutenko. Her books really opened my eyes to green smoothies, long before they became a worldwide internet fad. The fact that she eats some cooked food, which seemed pretty obvious before she stated it, doesn't detract from what she's brought to many people at the start of their raw food journeys.

I have no idea who Paul Nison is but he can keep his buffalo meat and goats milk to himself :rolleyes: Honestly I'd MUCH rather hear of a raw foodist going back to some vegan cooked foods than a vegan, raw or not, going back to animal products. There's a HUGE ethical difference there and I personally just can't respect or agree with that.

[lunabear]

I love Victoria Boutenko, and I love Alissa. I would not judge someone for eating steamed veggies versus raw any more than I would dislike someone choosing Pilates over Yoga. To each his own. I've known many "raw foodists", including my mentor and hydrotherapist in New York, who eat steamed veggies and brown rice occasionally. That doesn't mean I will, it just means that they do. It's not the end of the world, and they are still VASTLY more healthy than 99.9999% of the population.

As for Boutenko's weight, I can't believe people are saying she's gained weight like it's a bad thing. What if that's a sign that she's actually healthier than ever? Don't forget that a mere hundred years ago a slightly plump woman was seen as vastly more attractive than a stick thin one. Let's not use our modern, Western social prejudices against what may well be someone's natural body type. It seems very nosy and invasive of us to be inquiring into it like it's our business.

[meow]

If everyone chose death over killing an animal, we would have died out a long time ago during the ice age. If we made it past that era we'd probably still be stuck in the jungle. Could one watch their child starve when the chance for survival was sitting right there? Do you know what happens to creatures that don't adapt? They die. And not pleasantly might I add.

Ughhhh........ some of u guys kill me.............

.

I'm sorry, but this line of thinking is completely and totally irrelevant to the modern lifestyle. We obviously have the luxury of choosing to eat compassionately in this day and age. We can go to the supermarket and get tons of animal-free food, much of it for a better price than its meat & dairy alternatives. We can thrive and grow stronger without ever ingesting a steak or protein powder. It's a luxury that we would most likely not have been able to afford a century ago. Nonetheless, just because our ancestors and the 4-8 people who get stranded in the wilderness on botched hiking expeditions each year couldn't eat without harming animals DOES NOT IN ANY WAY mean that we should just throw up our hands and abandon veganism. This is completely nonsensical.

The only part that did make sense was that if creatures don't adapt, they die. Yes, we got this far by adapting. And now we are watching our Earth fall apart due to our gluttonous ways. The single greatest way to reduce our carbon footprint is to become vegan. So it seems that if more people don't "adapt" we truly may die. (On a side note, I find it hilarious that the people who are so adamant about reversing global warming, who shake their fingers at those who don't drive Priuses or pay money to negate their carbon impact when they fly, are usually not vegan and not at all open to reducing animal products in their diet.)

Finally, if I was stranded on a desert island, and this particular island happened to be the only one in the ocean that was devoid of fresh tropical fruit AND had a fresh water supply (since dehydration kills much sooner than starvation), perhaps I would eat some bird eggs or *gasp* even meat. If I made it through the violent illness that would no doubt result, I could come back to my home and continue doing what I do (animal rescue) and save FAR more animals than if I'd died on the island after refusing to eat flesh. So by momentarily abandoning veganism, I could actually do more for animals in the future. If I found myself the survivor of a nuclear holocaust and my child was starving and there was no food on Earth besides meat, yes, I'd give him/her the meat to keep him/her alive another day. Realistically, these are situations that 99.9% of us will never be in. To base one's opinions of ethical veganism on such far-fetched, desperate thoughts is closed-minded and illogical at best.

[kaybee]

hey meow :)

i know you already know this, but if you were stranded on a desert island and there were animals that you could kill for meat, surely there must be some vegetation on the island to feed THEM or else how could they survive either! you could just eat what they eat :) man, i hate when people bring up these ridiculous hypothetical questions to us vegans. i mean, where is the animal that these people are calling "meat" getting ITS food from? if theres no vegetation on the island, probly no animals living their either, and hence no "meat" anyway. so i dont think we have to worry about this situation to much, lol. and...theres always seaweed too.

[meow]

hey meow :)

i know you already know this, but if you were stranded on a desert island and there were animals that you could kill for meat, surely there must be some vegetation on the island to feed THEM or else how could they survive either! you could just eat what they eat :) man, i hate when people bring up these ridiculous hypothetical questions to us vegans. i mean, where is the animal that these people are calling "meat" getting ITS food from? if theres no vegetation on the island, probly no animals living their either, and hence no "meat" anyway. so i dont think we have to worry about this situation to much, lol. and...theres always seaweed too.

Exactly kaybee! It's a situation that would never arise in modern life. I was just playing the devil's advocate ;) The way I eat, being stranded on a desert island would be absolutely divine!!

[rawlight]

Another issue I see is that so many raw "leaders" have only been raw a year, two, three? and have become "authorities" either named so by themselves or us. A few years isn't long enough to understand if this is really the lifesyle you will always have. They tout raw food though they themselves are barely or struggle staying raw.

I don't know why we have this desire for attention when failing it could affect so many people. Why can't people wait to think of themselves as a leader or authority?

[michigan roman]

if the time comes when ive only other creature options as food i'll cross that bridge then ,
but my life philosophy is completely based in plant eating for ethical reasons and it'd
be a total last straw survival decision to eat critters

til then i strive to be a civilized citizen of the universe that doesnt hunt or use any other creatures . yes i'll kill a mosquito / shark / spider / etc ( predators / parasites) in a second . and if i couldnt control say deer populations in a harmless manner with birth control substances placed out in foods ide stand for shooting deer so they didnt eat to much of the crops . stuff like that is still survival necessary today . but i no longer have to domesticate / pen up / hunt other creatures to eat or use in any other way so thusly have moved on towards existing as a more civilized being

my bottom line to meat eaters is how do you perceive the perfect place many call heaven to be ? is there going to be predators / meat eaters there or shall it be just civilized plant eaters ? and ide guess everyone shall say just plant eaters . to that i then say why wait til supposedly something called a god brings you to heaven / a perfect place , why not start working on making earth a perfect place now ???????

[Tsurugi_Oni]

That line of thinking is totally fits within today's paradigm of the world, whether you realize it or not. And there's no such thing as "eating compassionately", life is life, whether plant or animal. You believing that plants don't feel like animals allows you to justify eating plants. Bacteria also "feel", although not in any way we can recognize. A primal emotion runs through all life, and we all are intelligent beings who feel and strive towards "life". A mountain lion that eats a child is not unethical, a virus can do nothing but infect people. Embracing life and death equally is true spirituality. Do you honestly believe that ALL predatory creatures have no "ethics", and all of a sudden the "grand human" has magical ethics? We are the exact same.

What happens when you live by the coast? You eat fish for nutrition. How are you going to eat raw in a pine forest, plow it all down so you can grow ur crops? You don't understand the crazy amounts of energy needed to sustain a rawfood lifestyle, or how the whole world would look if everyone tried to go raw. Same applies for eating meat 5x a week, and how the world would look if that would happen. For each person eating an extreme diet, there is 1 who eats a shit diet. I'm not saying raw is not the way to go, but people want it all. They want to travel, so they dont' grow crops at home. They want to live in the cities, but have the freshest organic produce. They want fruit flown in from all over the globe, yet the fruit farmers are eating rice and beans so u can eat ur fruit.

LIke I said, I have no problem with raw veganism. But *most* raw vegans I know don't realize how the health aspect of their diet relates to the social aspect. They need their super b-12 vitamins cultivated on a far off lab, or super-first-crop-virgin-appalachian-bean sprouts for nutrition. *Most* dont' realize what it truly does to the *globe* to maintain their diet, and *most* dont' even try. That's my only problem.

[michigan roman]

plants feel pain :eek: totally ridiculous speculation

your saying a blade of grass thinks and feels pain , i couldnt laugh harder

plants arent life forms , they dont have souls / minds / feel pain

and if by some wild longshot they do i sure cant tell ,
and i sure cant exist of of dirt . ive got to eat something ,
and the obvious choice is between a creatyre that obviously thinks /
moves / has babys / feels pain and something no ones ever heard make a sound / talk = a plant . thusly logic dictates if have choice respect the blatant fact critters feel pain and that you cant tell if plants do so eat the plant

[kaybee]

Tsurugi Oni

If you honestly think that killing a plant and killing an animal is the same thing, you need a reality check. and i literally mean that. While it is possible that plants could possibly experience pain in some way, it is absolutely unrefutingly clear that animals DO experience pain in a RADICAL way. Look at the way reality reveals itself and it is ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that animals suffer pain on an extremely radical level. much more than plants reveal themselves to us as experiencing pain. Animals have a highly developed nervous system, clearly experience pain, bleed when hurt, try to preserve their lives, escape from other creatuers that cause them harm, experience joy and pain, try to escape from slaughterhouses etc. All of this demonstrates a different sort of "being" than that of plants, a different sort of consciousness.

And it IS possible to be a compassionate eater. Its actually possible to live without killing plants OR animals for food. A focus on a diet that is high in fruit, nuts, seeds, and tree/plant leaves/greens but avoids root vegetables is a diet that does not necessitate killing of plants either.
To put plants and animals on the same level, and to claim that killing an animal is no different or worse than eating a plant is absolutely absurd. While there may be "a primal emotion" that runs through all of life, this "primal emotion" is far more basic than the much more developed and evolved sense of pain, emotions, senses, etc, that humans and animals experience. To reduce all life forms to the same thing or the same level is ridiculous.

This is exactly the kind of absurdity that is running rampant today, this sort of absurdity that plants and animals are on the same plane and that killing an animal is no worse than hurting or killing a plant. some kind of "new age thinking gone awry" for people to justify doing whatever the heck they want to do, thinking they are entitled to whatever they think they need, even if it comes at the expense of other creatures. And yet....it is quite possible to live a predominantly compassionate life where as little pain, suffering, and damage is caused to other creatures and other "beings". If you are really concerned about plants then its even possible to life in such a way that little damage is caused to them as well. it just takes more effort, and many people arent willing to put in the effort, or arent as bothered by "killing" plants as you seem to wish to argue we should be.

And yes, it is actually possible to live in a forest--even pine--and live well with possibly a small amount of cultivated ground, or by interspersing a mixed forest into the pines--planting fruit and nut trees, etc. Its called permaculture and foraging. I've spent time at an organic farm that focuses on permaculture and foraging and much of the land is currently plantation pine. Growing in the understory of even those young trees you will find abundant sorrel, plantain herb, and various other plants, and in the spring, the tips of some species of pine trees (sitka pine in particular) can be eaten as well and are like vitamin C bombs. you would also be possible to find an abundance of mushrooms in a pine forest, and DW says there are certain types of Lichens that can be eaten as well, if i remember correctly. On the edges of that forest, you are likely to find a variety of other wild edible plants, including nettles possibly navelwort, St. Patrick's cabbage, dandelion, checkerberries, etc etc etc.

I live by the coast. i dont eat fish. i eat seaweed. its abundant and its a crazy abundant fertilizer. i also eat nettles and plantain and chickweed and dandelion and cress, all of which grow so abundantly they are considered weeds and totally overlooked or weeded out, even though they are highly nutritious. I dont get your argument that if the whole world were raw the world would look bad...how much worse can it look than when rainforests are cut down for cattle farming, when caring for and carefully harvesting from the trees/plants in that rainforest could provide an abundance of healthy foods and superfoods without the clearing of forest and without the killing of cows and without the waste that cows produce, not to mention the cost for transport of the meat, slaughtering, etc. I dont get how you coudl possibly think a diet that depends, even in part, on animal agriculture could be better than one based on fresh fruit and veg. seriously, the state of the planet, largely due to animal agriculture, would only IMPROVE if it were put to growing fruit and veg instead, and if perennial crops are used, then its a phenomenally less impact on the planet. Did you know that the nuts from 5 monkey puzzle trees can provide enough protein for an adult for a year? pretty amazing if you ask me. and you dont even have to DO anything to the tree!
Animal agriculture uses an INSANE amount of energy! in many cases you have to grow the crops, which uses alot of energy to start with, transport the crops, feed them to the animals, then transport and kill the animals, transport the meat, keep it refrigerated etc etc etc. eating higher up on the food chain is NEVER going to use LESS energy than eating lower! Now, i understand your concern with transport energy etc, but that is why we need to focus on growing and eating local, building greenhouses and domes and becoming more locally sufficient by growing a wider variety of crops .

Its fine to say that embracing life and death equally is true spirituality, but it is only fair there for you to speak of human beings embracing their own life and death. its not fair for you to think that other creatures should embrace their death at your hands!

The "grand human" does have "magical ethics" in that the "grand human" has free will, is able to discern ethics and to make a choice towards compassion, towards bringing this world a little closer to peace and towards a peaceable kingdom, through each one of our actions. We can choose to live a more compassionate life through an alternative lifestyle that has a profound affection for all of creation and a desire for its thriving, and for the thriving of the being of the lives of other creatures.


and yeah, what michigan roman said :D

[michigan roman]

Tsurugi Oni

If you honestly think that killing a plant and killing an animal is the same thing, you need a reality check. and i literally mean that. While it is possible that plants could possibly experience pain in some way, it is absolutely unrefutingly clear that animals DO experience pain in a RADICAL way. Look at the way reality reveals itself and it is ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that animals suffer pain on an extremely radical level. much more than plants reveal themselves to us as experiencing pain. Animals have a highly developed nervous system, clearly experience pain, bleed when hurt, try to preserve their lives, escape from other creatuers that cause them harm, experience joy and pain, try to escape from slaughterhouses etc. All of this demonstrates a different sort of "being" than that of plants, a different sort of consciousness.

And it IS possible to be a compassionate eater. Its actually possible to live without killing plants OR animals for food. A focus on a diet that is high in fruit, nuts, seeds, and tree/plant leaves/greens but avoids root vegetables is a diet that does not necessitate killing of plants either.
To put plants and animals on the same level, and to claim that killing an animal is no different or worse than eating a plant is absolutely absurd. While there may be "a primal emotion" that runs through all of life, this "primal emotion" is far more basic than the much more developed and evolved sense of pain, emotions, senses, etc, that humans and animals experience. To reduce all life forms to the same thing or the same level is ridiculous.

This is exactly the kind of absurdity that is running rampant today, this sort of absurdity that plants and animals are on the same plane and that killing an animal is no worse than hurting or killing a plant. some kind of "new age thinking gone awry" for people to justify doing whatever the heck they want to do, thinking they are entitled to whatever they think they need, even if it comes at the expense of other creatures. And yet....it is quite possible to live a predominantly compassionate life where as little pain, suffering, and damage is caused to other creatures and other "beings". If you are really concerned about plants then its even possible to life in such a way that little damage is caused to them as well. it just takes more effort, and many people arent willing to put in the effort, or arent as bothered by "killing" plants as you seem to wish to argue we should be.

And yes, it is actually possible to live in a forest--even pine--and live well with possibly a small amount of cultivated ground, or by interspersing a mixed forest into the pines--planting fruit and nut trees, etc. Its called permaculture and foraging. I've spent time at an organic farm that focuses on permaculture and foraging and much of the land is currently plantation pine. Growing in the understory of even those young trees you will find abundant sorrel, plantain herb, and various other plants, and in the spring, the tips of some species of pine trees (sitka pine in particular) can be eaten as well and are like vitamin C bombs. you would also be possible to find an abundance of mushrooms in a pine forest, and DW says there are certain types of Lichens that can be eaten as well, if i remember correctly. On the edges of that forest, you are likely to find a variety of other wild edible plants, including nettles possibly navelwort, St. Patrick's cabbage, dandelion, checkerberries, etc etc etc.

I live by the coast. i dont eat fish. i eat seaweed. its abundant and its a crazy abundant fertilizer. i also eat nettles and plantain and chickweed and dandelion and cress, all of which grow so abundantly they are considered weeds and totally overlooked or weeded out, even though they are highly nutritious. I dont get your argument that if the whole world were raw the world would look bad...how much worse can it look than when rainforests are cut down for cattle farming, when caring for and carefully harvesting from the trees/plants in that rainforest could provide an abundance of healthy foods and superfoods without the clearing of forest and without the killing of cows and without the waste that cows produce, not to mention the cost for transport of the meat, slaughtering, etc. I dont get how you coudl possibly think a diet that depends, even in part, on animal agriculture could be better than one based on fresh fruit and veg. seriously, the state of the planet, largely due to animal agriculture, would only IMPROVE if it were put to growing fruit and veg instead, and if perennial crops are used, then its a phenomenally less impact on the planet. Did you know that the nuts from 5 monkey puzzle trees can provide enough protein for an adult for a year? pretty amazing if you ask me. and you dont even have to DO anything to the tree!
Animal agriculture uses an INSANE amount of energy! in many cases you have to grow the crops, which uses alot of energy to start with, transport the crops, feed them to the animals, then transport and kill the animals, transport the meat, keep it refrigerated etc etc etc. eating higher up on the food chain is NEVER going to use LESS energy than eating lower! Now, i understand your concern with transport energy etc, but that is why we need to focus on growing and eating local, building greenhouses and domes and becoming more locally sufficient by growing a wider variety of crops .

Its fine to say that embracing life and death equally is true spirituality, but it is only fair there for you to speak of human beings embracing their own life and death. its not fair for you to think that other creatures should embrace their death at your hands!

The "grand human" does have "magical ethics" in that the "grand human" has free will, is able to discern ethics and to make a choice towards compassion, towards bringing this world a little closer to peace and towards a peaceable kingdom, through each one of our actions. We can choose to live a more compassionate life through an alternative lifestyle that has a profound affection for all of creation and a desire for its thriving, and for the thriving of the being of the lives of other creatures.


and yeah, what michigan roman said

absolutely wonderful post kaybee :D

see this is why my best friend is an irishman :D

a classic irishman = cop with too big a heart for own good / very bright and locuacious / can tell a whopper of a story :cool: / likes his grog :D

[kaybee]

no grog here. makes me sick, lol :p

*scampers off to scarf down some seaweed off the cliffs...*

[Tsurugi_Oni]

I agree 1000% that the meat INDUSTRY is a terrible thing. That doesn't mean I think eating meat is a bad thing. When people live in grasslands, or by forests with inedible shrubbery, animals convert those plants to a form usable by humans. Also animals can last through the winter, while most calorie-dense plants can't (unless you're talking about starch....... which usually ain't eaten raw). In these two points alone meat can be an extremely efficient form of nutrition, and to say otherwise is foolishness.

And most of those plants u listed aren't a dense source of calories, except for nuts (I'm all about nut trees. They were some of our most abundantely planted trees until more modern processes hit). If you think you can live off of lichen and algae then I would LOVE to hear about your failures trying it. Although I agree that dandelions make great edibles, but NOT something you want to live off of.

You call my philosophy "new age', I call yours misguided. Plants are superbly intelligent, they breed, dynamically respond. Animals use claws and teeth to fight. Plants use deception, poisons, thorns, and much more. ALL life follows the same principles, and if you believe that they are nothing but mechanical creatures running off of basic chemical reactions then that's your belief. So what they don't vocalize, or show emotions that we can recognize. Those are just evolutionary tools which allow greater dynamic adaptability. Life continues by consuming life, whether a virus consumes you, a cow the grass, or a wolf the cow. Each creature must follow it's ethics, because ethics stems solely from the creature. How do you think life continues fool? Through DEATH. It is a continuous process, and others must die for others to live. How about never use pesticides and let bugs infest ur fruit so they live? Let them destroy your whole crop. Or how about those cute little deer that wipe out your whole garden in 1 night.

I hate how the rainforest is being cut down the rainforest to feed people's flesh desire, but I know 0 meat ain't a better solution. I also don't need shrimp so bad that I'm willing to have 30x+ the amount of bycatch for my plate. Fishing for sport and killing animals for an adrenaline rush is a sin. But I also thinking being a rich raw vegan with 10 acres of grass is a sin. Not being able to sustain your health without laboratory pills is also. Having 10 3rd world farmers eat a shit diet so you can have an unrealistic one (this goes for meat AND vegans) is terrible. How many of you have yards? How many of you waste fossil fuels mowing a lawn that is unproductive? How many of you have planted fruit trees in your yards? Taken the time to look into local fruit that flourishes without attendance? How much time do you put into your day on pondering how to create a WORLD system where plants provide food for you, instead of just buying into the capitalistic system and ordering food?

[michigan roman]

how is it someones fault that is sucsesful at raising life up to higher levels and making cars / tractors / electricty / planes / computers / etc thats trading some of that stuff to third world farmers for crops they grows fault the third world farmers arent able to raise life up to that level ??????????

it isnt . maybe have respect for what people that have advanced beyond simplistic crude earthly third world existances have accomplished !!!!!! it took hard work and advancements over thousands of years that obviously the third world wasnt able to do !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if it wasnt for them the damn third world farmers wouldnt have hope / ships / trucks / knowledge gained from computers etc

you sound like another guilt tripping globalist parasite

[meow]

So basically you're saying that just because all humans leave some negative imprint on the Earth, those who choose to leave the smallest imprint are just as bad as those who leave the largest? And that makes it ok to justify eating animals?

Sorry, that's not the school of thought I belong to. No animal, I repeat NO ANIMAL has to or will ever have to die so I can live. I'm not that narrow-minded or selfish. I'm a foreward thinking person with a better vision for the future. That's the choice I make and you may choose differently, but don't sit there and tell me that what I choose CANNOT be done because I'm doing it and so are countless others.

Not to mention that humans are frugivores. We have acquired "skills" to eat a variety of foods that are not meant to ever pass our lips, but our natural and proper diet is lots of fruit, and some vegetables and greens and nuts. Other foods may be more calorie-dense or contain nutrients, but they are not foods fit for human consumption so that's irrelevant.

And perhaps you missed this in your high school science class, but fruits need to be eaten, they beg to be eaten, to have their seeds spread so they can reproduce.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Michigan Roman, there's really no point in debating. If there's one thought I want to leave u with, it's that in the history of man, there are kings and there are peasants. There are mother countries and there are colonies. There are 1st world countries and 3rd world countries. We are the powerful, and they are the powerless. Kings eat better than the peasants.

Humans aren't "frugivores", we're clearly omnivores. To say that we're adapated to eat things besides fruit, but we shouldn't makes no sense. We have adaptions because they allow us to live. I don't get what u mean "negative" imprints on the world, what is ur definition of negative?

I'm not saying raw can't be done, it obviously has been. All I state is that people don't understand what their diet does to the world, raw vegan or pure carnivour. Eating ginseng root and goji berries may make me superman, but I understand that EVERYTHING comes at a cost. And given who we choose to be, our diet's often times (RAW or MEAT eaters) create an unwanted world.

[MrsJohnnyG]

This has been an intriguing discussion... but I have to interject something here.

No animal, I repeat NO ANIMAL has to or will ever have to die so I can live. I'm not that narrow-minded or selfish.
I know this is a popular vegan argument for not consuming animal products. I personally don't see how ANYone could kill a beautiful, innocent animal. I have an uncle who hunts, and frankly I can't stomach being civil to him because it seems that only an evil barbarian could take pleasure in killing a beautiful wild creature.

THAT SAID... nature is cruel. Animals attack and kill each other viciously in the wild. They will attack and eat their insides right out of them as they lay dying a horrible death. I know, it's not something you or I like to think about, EVER... but it's reality.

I would FAR rather an animal die in a humane way... being gently put to sleep first... after living a happy, fulfilled life grazing acres of wild grasses (NOT in a sickeningly inhumane factory farm where they are imprisoned, injected with all manner of antibiotics and growth hormones, and never allowed to live the free-grazing life they were meant to live)... than viciously attacked and left to die a slow, horrible death thanks to predators Mother Nature provided.

[michigan roman]

sucsesful people at life on earth eat better than non sucsesful

some people / sucsesful people constantly worked and strove to advance making numerical systems / alphabets / wheels / road / aquaducts / architecural ways / medical ways / ships / telescopes / compasses / guns / cars / tv / nuclear reactors / computers / tractors / etc , thousands of years of recorded history by hard working / intilligent people which lead to their off spring today eating good and having cars / computers / etc

some people didnt accomplish a thing and still live in grass huts near going extinct starving if it werent for those sucsesful at life on earth doing for them

but come today its those that have raised life up on earth to a greater level fault that those whom didnt arent happy = RIDICULOUS

[Tsurugi_Oni]

This has been an intriguing discussion... but I have to interject something here.

I know this is a popular vegan argument for not consuming animal products. I personally don't see how ANYone could kill a beautiful, innocent animal. I have an uncle who hunts, and frankly I can't stomach being civil to him because it seems that only an evil barbarian could take pleasure in killing a beautiful wild creature.

THAT SAID... nature is cruel. Animals attack and kill each other viciously in the wild. They will attack and eat their insides right out of them as they lay dying a horrible death. I know, it's not something you or I like to think about, EVER... but it's reality.

I would FAR rather an animal die in a humane way... being gently put to sleep first... after living a happy, fulfilled life grazing acres of wild grasses (NOT in a sickeningly inhumane factory farm where they are imprisoned, injected with all manner of antibiotics and growth hormones, and never allowed to live the free-grazing life they were meant to live)... than viciously attacked and left to die a slow, horrible death thanks to predators Mother Nature provided.

Thank you!!!!

I wish I could redirect you all to my "Self-Sufficiency Raw" thread in the "Other ( Health Related ) to get a grasp on the larger social aspects of being raw.

But um.... Let me ask you a couple questions. What do you say to the 99% of the world who doesn't eat raw? The people in Alaska who hunt for survival? The people who store potatoes and eat porridge through winter? The people who eat fish for calories? What about rural folk who easily get a cow to transfer grass into milk, instead of risking cultivating land?

How do you replace ALL of those calories, by eating raw? Here's a couple solutions off of the top of my head.

Tell them to die. Tell them to move away from where they live and go somewhere where climate is more suitable for raw lifestyle. INTENSIVELY cultivate the tropical zones and export more fruit to other regions. Tell people they can't live in unsustainable cities, drop everything they know, and grow fruit. Vertical garden in cities using fossil fuels. Cultivate lawns into gardens. If 3rd world people have to devote only 20% of their energy to meet their non-raw dietary needs (and export 40% effort to meet our raw product dietary needs), how could we maintain our lifestyle if they have to devote 40% of their energy towards their own raw food diet? Why don't you think raw food diet has not been a major part of the largest majority of cultures in history (I want some serious theories)?

You guys see what I'm saying? I hope someone else understands, that no matter what you do, there are big effects. Most don't think about raw food besides what it does to ur health, they don't see the further reaching effects.

[JoyceH]

I would FAR rather an animal die in a humane way... being gently put to sleep first... after living a happy, fulfilled life grazing acres of wild grasses

There's no such thing as humane slaughter. I live in Vermont where there are still a few farmers who raise grass fed beef. Problem is that in VT like most states, it's illegal for a farmer to slaughter his own meat to be resold. So these animals get transferred to slaughter houses, much like that of nazi concentration camp prisoners being sent to death camps (no offense to anyone but it's a perfect analogy from what I've read and witnessed: animals are dismembered piece by piece while still conscious and screaming)

Here is a very recent undercover investigation that will change your for life after viewing it. And it took place right here in beautiful peaceful Vermont

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20091103/NEWS02/91102013/Slaughterhouse-was-cited-three-times

I only skimmed through the threads a bit. I'm not about to judge anyone or throw stones but I must say that I am always so deeply saddened when a raw vegan decides to add dairy, meat and other animal products back to his/her diet. Completely unnecessary!!! It's a lose lose situation for your bodies, your souls, the animals, the environment, and the planet in general. I feel this deeply in my heart.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

I guess if there's "compassionate eating" there could be a "humane slaughter". An inhumane way would be to shoot a cow with 10,000 blowdarts.

What kind of slaughterhouse dismembers an animal while alive? I've NEVER heard of that, not even in home butchering. The first cut slaughterhouses do is bleed the animal.

[MrsJohnnyG]

animals are dismembered piece by piece while still conscious and screaming
THAT is illegal. I hope that the very SECOND you learned of that going on anywhere, you called the authorities to have it shut down. That kind of disgustingly cruel behavior should be swiftly put to an end and severely punished, just as similar torture of a human would be.

Of course, that begs the question... how do we prevent animals being dismembered piece by piece while still conscious and screaming, by other animals in the wild?

[Green_Woman]

Julia... We don't... :(

Most animals ARE designed to eat meat, and it's natural... though sickening to us... that they attack and kill each other.

It's NOT natural that HUMANS attack and kill animals and eat them. Not, at least, for those who adhere to the Hebrew/Greek Scriptures/Historical Records and their take on man's origins.

We were designed ideally to eat Fruit, then Veg.


I hope someone else understands, that no matter what you do, there are big effects. Most don't think about raw food besides what it does to ur health, they don't see the further reaching effects.


One thing about your previous posts (I read them :) ) confused me, Tsurugi. Are you trying to cause us to think about the SOURCE of our Raw Foods (ex: trying to encourage people to eat LOCAL foods when possible or grow their own?) or are you trying to "lay on a guilt-trip" about the fact that Humans have to Eat and whatever we do, we're hurting others (ex: faulty reasoning?)....?

Do clear this up, because I think the reason folks here are NOT perhaps understanding what you're wanting us to, is because it's a wee bit unclear what we're supposed to understand!

I do, however, want to add that I AGREE if THIS is your point - Raw Vegans do indeed need to be aware of where our Food is coming from and what Impact it's having on the Environment/Other Humans...

...however, Newbies to the Raw Diet are not as prone to be informed because, let's face it, RAW is a LEARNING CURVE. We ALL have a looong way to go.

[D'vorah]

How do you think life continues fool?





Fool? Wow.

[D'vorah]

Humans aren't "frugivores", we're clearly omnivores.




Why exactly are you on this board?

Deborah

[T-Bird]

I don't know why we have this desire for attention when failing it could affect so many people. Why can't people wait to think of themselves as a leader or authority?

Cuz they wanna get rich quick.

[T-Bird]

I do, however, want to add that I AGREE if THIS is your point - Raw Vegans do indeed need to be aware of where our Food is coming from and what Impact it's having on the Environment/Other Humans...

I kind of disagree with this to some extent. Many MAY want to, and I certainly am always in tune with ethical and environmental aspects of my life, but that is after decades of philosophizing.....

But not everyone can follow all causes at all points in their life. What can you do? what do you choose to do? these are all our individual choices.

And the whole vegan police thing is a dead bore. The attitude seems to be "OMG - you don't eat meat for ethical reasons??? I would never think of depriving myself of what I've grown up eating. I grew up eating it, that means it can't be wrong. You obviously think you're better than me - well, You're not! And here's why...."

Yawn.

[RawKnitster]

Another issue I see is that so many raw "leaders" have only been raw a year, two, three? and have become "authorities" either named so by themselves or us. A few years isn't long enough to understand if this is really the lifesyle you will always have. They tout raw food though they themselves are barely or struggle staying raw.

I don't know why we have this desire for attention when failing it could affect so many people. Why can't people wait to think of themselves as a leader or authority?

Like your answer, T-Bird. :) I would add that being raw seems to ignite a passion for sharing "your" discovery. I've felt it myself. To be able to make a living sharing something I am so passionate about would be a dream come true. I've seen it in others, too. My brother is a new rawbie. He is really excited about it. He has plans to change the world by starting a non-profit network to spread the word.

[misslinda]

In light of the original thread topic. I believe the raw movement "leaders" have done exactly what it should.....help others to self examine the inner core values about food, health etc. This ought to help people take more responsiblity in their own decisions and health.....

Look at how many cardiologists out there are overweight. At least the ones in our hospital :cool:

Personally, I have found useful information in many of the raw food leaders. I take what works for me and take complete authority over my own health.

[JoyceH]

I guess if there's "compassionate eating" there could be a "humane slaughter". An inhumane way would be to shoot a cow with 10,000 blowdarts.

What kind of slaughterhouse dismembers an animal while alive? I've NEVER heard of that, not even in home butchering. The first cut slaughterhouses do is bleed the animal.

Don't have time to go into this now but do some research if you're truly interested. Look up factory farming on these websites: Farm Sanctuary , Peta, Humane Society of the United States. Animals are stunned but most of the time still consicious. Watch Earthlings, Meat Your Meat, etc. Chickens and turkeys and ducks are exempt from any humane laws since they are birds so they have it the worst. Read Skinny Bitch and they get into the details of how animals are still alive as they die piece by piece. The part about chickens and pigs will leave you in tears

gotta go since i'm on my way to Boston. Grezzo yay!!

[lovenlife]

What kind of slaughterhouse dismembers an animal while alive? I've NEVER heard of that, not even in home butchering. The first cut slaughterhouses do is bleed the animal.

This is happening every second of every day. Watch "Earthlings, if you dare, and you will never look at meat the same again. I cried all the way through it.(watched it for educational purposes and to share it w others)

I had not been on since yesterday and came on this morning. I was sad to see how this discussion came to this point of calling someone a fool. I had said how proud I was of how we could all carry on such a discussion and have it go so well. ~sigh~

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Firstly, I'm on this board because I believe eating Raw and Living foods is a great path to health.

Secondly, when you bleed animals they go unconscious VERY quickly. Gravity + the heart pumping will pump blood extremely fast out of your artery. For chickens snapping the neck is a common practice, or mechanical bolt guns to the head for bigger animals. All in all these are very good methods. And yes, I know factory farm workers abuse animals, but that's a separate issue. Like MrsJohnnyG, anyone you catch purposefully hacking an animal apart alive should be reported immediately, and punished to the fullest extant. But I tell you, I've slaughtered and seen slaughtered, and it's not enjoyable, but it's necessary and done humanely. And we don't waste a single thing. And I hate people who eat meat but can't kill an animal, that is a being disconnected from reality (like many here IMO believe)

And "stopping animals from killing each other?" lol........

And Green Woman, my only concern about raw foodists is that they are concerned from WHERE there food comes from, I could care less if life hurts life to survive. People think "everyone in the world should eat mangos, dates, and watermelons! We'd be happy and healthy", yet they dont' understand that we couldnt' feed 6billion people on that diet unless the world changed in a VERY dramatic way (more gardens, more trees, more farmers, no yards, more local fruits to make up calories). People don't understand the social aspects of what it takes to eat a raw food diet. They wonder why people spray pesticides/herbicides/grow GM crops when they themselves don't even realize that they are a part of the problem (by relying on intensive monoculture). They think that eating meat kills, but they are ignorant to how an idealistic diet w/o thought (social impact) kills too.

Like I said, we're Kings in America. And because we're kings, we can eat/live the life of luxury off the backs of the peasants. We can grow lawns, waste money on a lawn mower + fuel to mow them, and have a dead ecosystem surrounding our house. But we want to live in high-rise apartments and eat organic fruit, while being a multi-national actor who travels between 10 states a month. People want it all, and they just dont' realize they can't (if they want to be "ethical'')

Me, I garden. I also forage wild foods from spring - fall, up to 5 wild greens, 20+ fruits, and 5 different nuts. I know how much food it takes to grow food, forage food in an unproductive environment, and in a productive environment. I know what happens to wild fruits if you get there when they tree-ripen. How much area you have to cover if you wanna survive, much less thrive. I've lived in near 3rd world conditions and seen the realities of life.

So people spout their ideal "nothing has to die!!!", but they don't see that either humans have to die or you have to change ur whole way of life. They don't understand. They dream of a world where every single creature lives, where lions and anteloupe get along peacefull, and such a world will never exist. Like I said, we as a race would of died out in the ice age if not eating animals. And sure, you can be a ethical dead vegan if you want, that's your choice and your right. I know these forums are about the sole aspect of raw food health, and so I posted in the "other" forum in HOPE maybe some of these people had sense.

I'm all about raw food, and believe it's one of the most superior ways to achieve health. But I also understand the bigger picture.

[freshlight]

In these two points alone meat can be an extremely efficient form of nutrition, and to say otherwise is foolishness.


why are you writing in this foolish forum and talking to all of us fools then? :D

You call my philosophy "new age'

nope, I'd call it stone age :)
The question is: why did you come to this vegan forum if you are so fond of eating animals? I'm not going to try and convince everythingeaters in the beauty of raw vegan diet because its pointless. Hope you read the forum rules and are going to stop talking about eating other things than raw vegan goodies.

[Revvell]

Methinks y'all have hi-jacked this thread and need to get back on topic and/or begin a new thread for this conversation. Whatchu think?

[lovenlife]

This site is not about denigrating one another.


HOW we ARE speaks volumes for WHO we are over and above WHAT we SAY we are .

[lovenlife]

Methinks y'all have hi-jacked this thread and need to get back on topic and/or begin a new thread for this conversation. Whatchu think?


YES REVVELL...back on topic please...it was going VERY well. Because to actually speak FOR eating meat, is not allowed on this forum atall...right? Actually those who do and ocntinue to do so can get banned?

Lets all do what we do, eating raw as we see fit, what works for us, and simply be willing to see how it turns out for those who have altered ( while respecting their right to choose for themselves)from the way they started out.

This will be an interesting progression to watch. I am actually intrigued and find it interesting that this has occurred (tho admittedtedly a tiny bit of shock for a few seconds) and will keep an eye on it.

[rawmom2006]

I tried to read through this whole thread. I can not believe some posters are defending eating and slaughtering animals. I thought I was on gitmr for a minute. It seeems the raw food movement has become everything goes and you better not critizes are you will be called a rabid vegan. Raw in the last few years has become these people looking to make money and decided to make their living off trying to become these raw gurus. I just hope more people who are looking at raw will really research how long these supose raw gurus have been raw and if they are really living the raw lifestyle.
I have been raw for 8 years and I hope raw shifts back to how it was in the begining but I feel it is more about making money for a lot of these gurus.
I am glad Alissa has this raw vegan forum.

[les]

Firstly, I'm on this board because I believe eating Raw and Living foods is a great path to health.

Secondly, when you bleed animals they go unconscious VERY quickly. Gravity + the heart pumping will pump blood extremely fast out of your artery. For chickens snapping the neck is a common practice, or mechanical bolt guns to the head for bigger animals. All in all these are very good methods. And yes, I know factory farm workers abuse animals, but that's a separate issue. Like MrsJohnnyG, anyone you catch purposefully hacking an animal apart alive should be reported immediately, and punished to the fullest extant. But I tell you, I've slaughtered and seen slaughtered, and it's not enjoyable, but it's necessary and done humanely. And we don't waste a single thing. And I hate people who eat meat but can't kill an animal, that is a being disconnected from reality (like many here IMO believe)

And "stopping animals from killing each other?" lol........

And Green Woman, my only concern about raw foodists is that they are concerned from WHERE there food comes from, I could care less if life hurts life to survive. People think "everyone in the world should eat mangos, dates, and watermelons! We'd be happy and healthy", yet they dont' understand that we couldnt' feed 6billion people on that diet unless the world changed in a VERY dramatic way (more gardens, more trees, more farmers, no yards, more local fruits to make up calories). People don't understand the social aspects of what it takes to eat a raw food diet. They wonder why people spray pesticides/herbicides/grow GM crops when they themselves don't even realize that they are a part of the problem (by relying on intensive monoculture). They think that eating meat kills, but they are ignorant to how an idealistic diet w/o thought (social impact) kills too.

Like I said, we're Kings in America. And because we're kings, we can eat/live the life of luxury off the backs of the peasants. We can grow lawns, waste money on a lawn mower + fuel to mow them, and have a dead ecosystem surrounding our house. But we want to live in high-rise apartments and eat organic fruit, while being a multi-national actor who travels between 10 states a month. People want it all, and they just dont' realize they can't (if they want to be "ethical'')

Me, I garden. I also forage wild foods from spring - fall, up to 5 wild greens, 20+ fruits, and 5 different nuts. I know how much food it takes to grow food, forage food in an unproductive environment, and in a productive environment. I know what happens to wild fruits if you get there when they tree-ripen. How much area you have to cover if you wanna survive, much less thrive. I've lived in near 3rd world conditions and seen the realities of life.

So people spout their ideal "nothing has to die!!!", but they don't see that either humans have to die or you have to change ur whole way of life. They don't understand. They dream of a world where every single creature lives, where lions and anteloupe get along peacefull, and such a world will never exist. Like I said, we as a race would of died out in the ice age if not eating animals. And sure, you can be a ethical dead vegan if you want, that's your choice and your right. I know these forums are about the sole aspect of raw food health, and so I posted in the "other" forum in HOPE maybe some of these people had sense.

I'm all about raw food, and believe it's one of the most superior ways to achieve health. But I also understand the bigger picture.

Just read through this thread and yes, it begs the question: Again, what are you doing on this forum? Are you one of those people who likes to shake it up just for the fun of it? Is this your idea of entertainment? I really don't think anyone here is buying what you have to argue.

[freshlight]

well said, rawmom2006!

[revdrcyn]

Victoria Boutenko is no longer 100%? That's probably the most depressing thing I've heard all week. She is meant to be one of THE raw food gurus...

She is my idol! I cannot believe this!

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Anyone ever find out why that one "guru" drank milk?

[theresaann]

I can relate to Victoria...I remember one time I had been raw for about 6 weeks and felt literally STARVING...not starving for calories, really...I can't explain it. I was VERY stressed, I guess. I went to a middle eastern restaurant with my kids and broke down, ordering tabouli, hummus and foule, a fava bean dish, and ate those with romaine lettuce leaves. My body DEVOURED that food. I felt like I was "coming back to life."

what does this mean? some will say that its some kind of "addiction" issue. I choose a different approach-I TRUST my body. For some reason, maybe my digestive fire wasn't strong enough at that time to be all raw, all the time, but those beans were like a life saver for me.

I am going back to high raw now, and eventually raw, but can i say forever? No, I can't. I much prefer to honor my body. Eating animals and contributing to their suffering is something I draw the line at-I CAN NOT do that, but eating some cooked food now and then, like beans or steamed veggies? I can't say that I won't. What I CAN promise is that I will listen to my body. Not YOUR body, cause only YOU can do that, and no one can ultimately know my body like I can.

I don't presume to know more about Victoria's body or Paul's. Doesn't that sound absurd if I even thought I could??

Live and let live and trust ourselves...self love is the healer! Peace~

[michigan roman]

I can relate to Victoria...I remember one time I had been raw for about 6 weeks and felt literally STARVING...not starving for calories, really...I can't explain it. I was VERY stressed, I guess. I went to a middle eastern restaurant with my kids and broke down, ordering tabouli, hummus and foule, a fava bean dish, and ate those with romaine lettuce leaves. My body DEVOURED that food. I felt like I was "coming back to life."

what does this mean? some will say that its some kind of "addiction" issue. I choose a different approach-I TRUST my body. For some reason, maybe my digestive fire wasn't strong enough at that time to be all raw, all the time, but those beans were like a life saver for me.

I am going back to high raw now, and eventually raw, but can i say forever? No, I can't. I much prefer to honor my body. Eating animals and contributing to their suffering is something I draw the line at-I CAN NOT do that, but eating some cooked food now and then, like beans or steamed veggies? I can't say that I won't. What I CAN promise is that I will listen to my body. Not YOUR body, cause only YOU can do that, and no one can ultimately know my body like I can.

I don't presume to know more about Victoria's body or Paul's. Doesn't that sound absurd if I even thought I could??

Live and let live and trust ourselves...self love is the healer! Peace~

very excellent points

and here at 4 years raw ive diverted off totally raw many times and had steamed vegi or dry beans / rice meals that tasted better to me than anything ive ever aten . but i also wont break my vegan ethics and still constantly strive to stay all raw as i believe in it totally , its just that ive still not found my own personal perfect raw diet so can wander off it a bit

thats why im now once again seriously trying soaked grains for their b vitamins as im speculating thats what im lacking , theres not many of us into it so advance is slow . but i know we'll find it

[T-Bird]

Michigan,

I wonder how much is nutritionally based vs early brain programming for certain food/physiological and psychological postprandial sensations.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

I'd say both sides have heavy weight to their credibility. Eating foods with negative thoughts isn't good for your health, or eating something which you cringe at. Sometimes when only think of a certain seed I've eaten I feel the urge to vomit a little.

[smiley]

Storm wrote this in 2006 about his struggles with the raw diet. I think it is written well.

Blogdate 12/18/06

The Downside of the Raw Vegan Diet

I'm now about two weeks away from entering into my 58th journey around the sun. I have been doing the Raw Vegan Diet since 1972 and this is the first time that I am reaching what I would consider a crisis with the diet.

As we go deeper into the movement I'm starting to come into contact with long term raw vegans I always knew they must have existed. I read everything that I can find on the subject. One of the main inspirations for me was the work of Dr. Norman Walker who was also the longest lived raw vegan that I know of. Even though he had one cooked meal a day usually consisting of some form of rice dish; for me he is still a type of mentor, because he was the first to drive home the scientific principles of my current approach to the raw vegan diet.

But now after over thirty years I find myself besieged on all sides by intolerable food and drug cravings. I'm experiencing a level of agony that I never experienced up until now. When I first started I never experienced what is commonly known as detox. It did take a certain amount of discipline to change life long eating habits. But right from the start I was so excited by the incredible results until I was just swept away by the momentum of the discovery of a new frontier.

Of course I don't know for sure what is happening with me. We are all mysterious beings and modern medical science has not even scratched the surface layer of answering even the most basic questions of our existence. But even so most of the time I refer to a scientific language when I discourse within myself via internal dialogue.

I totally believe that we all have the capacity for infinite growth. I don't think that we ever bottom out and that we just reach a wall either physical or spiritual that says you just cannot go any further. I think that I realized early on in my journey that the energy levels one obtains from doing a well balanced raw vegan diet are astronomical. The only way that I was able to maintain a long term course was to transmute the energy. I think that if you don't find a way to transmute the energy then it turns on you.

Of course one of the advantages of being an old man is hindsight. I can look back over the years and they speak to me. The one thing that becomes obviously clear to me is that when we tap into the huge energy source that comes from raw food then we must also develop a means to transmute it. When I first started out I was too poor to afford a car so all I had was a bicycle and a thirty dollar juicer. I was riding over a hundred miles a day. When I went raw I instantly noticed that the bike went faster and further on less food. It was like the difference between a coal burning electric plant and two pounds of uranium in a nuclear energy plant. Even within the raw food realm I think that there is almost five times as much energy in a glass of orange juice than there is in a typical 3 course raw vegan meal. Simple and less is better.

This is a concept that has worked fine for me up until now. I feel that many facets of our existence are what you would call accumulative. Most of the time this works against us in the form of accumulating toxins in the form of un-eliminated waste. These toxins then actually clog all of the systems of the body so that over time we become numb and desensitized.

I think that with the raw vegan diet that just the reverse happens. I have had people tell me that they did the diet for 5 years and then stopped. I know of one well known raw fooder who did the diet for over twenty five years and then went back to eating meat. He got stomach cancer, which he then cured by going back to the raw vegan diet. And my question has always been how could someone do something that actually worked for them and then stop. I hear of people on almost a daily bases now saying that they feel so much better on the raw vegan diet and that they totally believe that it is the best way to eat, but they themselves are only doing 80 percent.

I think that what is happening is that the raw vegan diet is working for some people too well. You reach a level of energy that is totally uncomfortable and in order for the organism to protect itself from this excess energy you start eating food that will negate the flow of energy. I think that that is what is happening with me in my current crisis. For years after I went totally raw I only needed four to five hours of sleep. I think that when we sleep our bodies process the toxins, and as we eat the cleaner foods less time is needed to process the toxins. What is happening now is that I'm finding that I'm hardly sleeping at all. I am experiencing what I call states of waking dreams.

At first I was thrilled when I realized that this was happening to me. This is a state that people take major drugs to acquire. There are different states of sleep. Even when we sleep a full eight hours we only spend five or ten minutes in a deep delta state. I think that the delta state is a dreamless state or if we do dream in it we can't recall it.

I think that I first altered my sleep patterns in 1968 when I was in the army stationed in Korea. Sometimes I would pull guard duty when we were on alert and the combination of fear and fighting sleep would cause me to enter into altered states of sleep. I would doze off but at the same time my eyes were open and I was focused. I was not totally aware of what had happened to me until I went raw about four years later.

As I’m not sleeping at night and I’m driving a lot right now for both the food shopping and business matters – whenever I leave the house its at a least a two-hour drive to go anywhere as we live so far up in the mountains. So I’m kind of sleeping on the road, in a sort-of waking restful state.

One night I was driving with a group of friends on a freeway in LA and I fell totally asleep at the wheel while doing 80 miles a hour. I drove up an exit and down a side street and parked the car. When everyone asked me what we were doing there I told them that I fell asleep and that the last thing I remembered was driving down the freeway.

This was even more pronounced when I was solo sailing years ago. Sometimes in really bad storms I would have to stay up for three days at a time sailing the boat. I would have to deal with each single wave until the storm played out and then I would fall into a deep delta state of sleep. Or if I was in an anchorage and the wind changed from off shore to on shore then I would have to be sleeping lightly enough to pop up and deal with the boat.

But now as I enter into new levels of consciousness through the long term effects of the reversals of accumulated waste and toxins, I'm finding that my ability to manage my energy levels in relation to my energy levels are not in sync. I think that this will happen to every single person who attempts to do the raw vegan diet long term. Eventually you will be confronted by the wall.

And another reason even though I hate to admit it is that I have slowed down my workout levels. For years I was an extreme athlete. I loved solo rock climbing, scuba diving, hang gliding, sailing storms, etc... But after having so many children I felt that I could not take these type of chances so I slowed down the process of transmuting high energy levels through extreme danger, and as a result the energy is in effect turning on me in the form of intense cravings.

What happens when we reach the wall is that we give into a craving. Most people when they come off of doing a 100% raw vegan diet they break it with rice. I think that there are two types of raw vegans. The first type hates the thought of cooked food, can't stand the smell of it and it hurts him/her to be in the room with it. The other type - I include myself in this group - still loves the memory of everything they ever ate, still craves meat, and all manner of cooked foods and junk foods. The second type has the harder journey.

I wish I had more information. I think that because I started off with a really bad diet that maybe I didn't develop my nervous system to a level to be able to handle this increase in energy. I notice that all of my kids carry much higher charges of energy than both Jinjee and I. They are running circles around us. Their energy levels are also increasing at an almost unbelievable rate. It is almost uncomfortable to be around them sometimes. And they too are having to learn how to transmute their energy or it turns on them.

[smiley]

Adagio has been cranky lately – he’s two and a half – and we went to the track at City College one night. We were all racing on the grass and up the bleachers. Then Adagio just took off running around the track by himself. We thought he was trying to catch up with Shale and Jome who were racing on one side. But then we noticed him far off in the far curve still running around the track and realized he had actually decided to run around the track by himself. It was so amazing watching his little white running shoes just moving down that far stretch like the road-runner! All the other kids came over to us and we all just stood in disbelief. Jinjee and Raven wanted to go to him – he was so far away now – but I asked them not to. This was his own journey. As he jogged down the home stretch and started slowing down a bit we began to cheer him on – which made him speed back up with a big smile on his face.

But when I realized this little kid has the energy to run around a college track and then still want to go on running – I understood why he’s been cranky – the energy is stuck in his body and needs to get out. The energy otherwise courses through the body and drives you crazy. A cooked person would just eat some energy-draining foods and the immediate problem would be solved even though their health would eventually suffer of course. A raw person might fall of the wagon at this point and not even know why they did so.

When I get past the fact that I really feel uncomfortable with the release of this much energy coursing through my system all the time I have to admit that on the whole I feel great. I can run for miles without any pain. As of this writing I don't have any lines or wrinkles even though I spend a lot of time out in the sun in the high mountain desert which is very dry.

I have been trying to work with the concept of just skimming the alpha state of waking dreaming without actually losing consciousness and I'm now aware of the road at all times whereas before I was not. This has greatly reduced my level of stress and sometimes after a long drive I arrive feeling rested as if I had really had a deep sleep.

I feel that I'm coming up on a new frontier through the long term effects of the raw vegan diet if I can just find a way to handle the discomfort that the new energy levels are bringing me. Some of the other things that are happening to me are: I can't seem to come into alignment with time and space. No matter where I'm at I want to be someplace else. And no matter what I'm doing I feel that I should be doing something else. This causes me to move at breakneck speed across the planet without ever arriving at my destination. I'm thinking that if I had a huge task, something that I could just totally throw all my energies into that this might be one of the answers. I think another solution might be to somehow raise ones spiritual vibration. These are things I’m seeking right now.

One of the things that is really helping me to understand all this is that I get from 30 to 60 emails a day from people doing all stages of the raw diet and one recurring thing that I notice as a common thread is the fact that they are seeing different aspects of the raw vegan diet actually working, as a problem.

Basically I think that when we reach a certain level of energy that it becomes totally uncomfortable, and if we don't learn how to deal with this aspect of the raw vegan diet then our journey is over. I would love to hear others' experiences with this – please feel free to join in discussion of this topic in our Garden Diet forum.

Storm

[rawmiss]

who cares? why should we get shocked or depressed by decisions the others make for themselves? It's their life and their prob.

It doesn't make raw less beautiful, it doesn't change anything at all.

Exactly, who cares. Probably 1 in 100 raw fooders are at 100% anyway, do we really expect our gurus to be perfect when we fail all the time? The pressure of having people expect you to be perfect and analizing what you eat must make raw food a huge chore for a lot of gurus (you think you have it hard trying to be raw, try being raw with a critical audience).

It's the logic behind raw food, the logic that cooking adds nothing and takes away almost everything good in a food that inspires us to be raw. If every guru went back to cooked it wouldn't change a thing with me because I've seen raw food work in my life.

I've never been at 100% for any great length of time either. I'm just high raw and it works wonders.

[katchmoleen]

Wow, that is extremely interesting. I think it is significant that shortly after this, they started building their raw community and are now starting a second one. And they started the green homes consulting business. So he certainly found the huge task he felt he wanted.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Excellent post Smiley. I believe there's a lot of truth in what he says. It's like people on crystal meth who have to put their energy towards something. Or people who get horny and need an output =]. If you can't put that energy towards meditation or some sort of creative output, it uncomfortably builds. Seriously, think about it.

I wish the person can describe his journey on raw to us. All of the tweaks and discoveries he's made.

[terry brown]

Smiley--thanks for posting this, I really enjoyed reading it and it makes sense.

This is a very interesting topic!!!

Terry
(who will be 2 months raw on Dec 25!:))
PS: Had my first gathering with friends on SAD yesterday. I was just telling my husband that their reactions were interesting to watch. I was not over bearing at all, they were polite, but you could tell they were really kind of confused and could not compute the fact that someone would eat this way!

[Revvell]

Excellent post Smiley. I believe there's a lot of truth in what he says.

I wish the person can describe his journey on raw to us. All of the tweaks and discoveries he's made.

Go to his site; read his blog.

[theresaann]

Storm wrote these two things:


"I think that what is happening is that the raw vegan diet is working for some people too well. You reach a level of energy that is totally uncomfortable and in order for the organism to protect itself from this excess energy you start eating food that will negate the flow of energy. I think that that is what is happening with me in my current crisis." and this:

"I can't seem to come into alignment with time and space. No matter where I'm at I want to be someplace else. And no matter what I'm doing I feel that I should be doing something else. This causes me to move at breakneck speed across the planet without ever arriving at my destination. I'm thinking that if I had a huge task, something that I could just totally throw all my energies into that this might be one of the answers. I think another solution might be to somehow raise ones spiritual vibration. These are things I’m seeking right now." And this:

"Basically I think that when we reach a certain level of energy that it becomes totally uncomfortable, and if we don't learn how to deal with this aspect of the raw vegan diet then our journey is over."

This makes the most sense of anything I've ever heard....The times that the cravings for cooked become absolutely MADDENING to me, I am seeing now thanks to this post (THANK YOU SMILEY!!) have been because the level of energy that I'm embodying is taking me to another level of consciousness that my current life has not supported me going to.

I am a spiritual channeler and its ALREADY difficult to navigate this dense, 3D reality relative to the Earthly responsibilities I must attend to every day (Single mom, self employed as professional intuitive and bodyworker, carting kids to conventional school every day, dog, cat, bills...now getting married to a wonderful, but SAD person-athough he WILL eat what I cook-uncook, lol)

The point is that 100% TOTALLY elevates our energy AND our spiritual awareness and if we don't create an environment to protect and nurture that....I can see where the cravings for cooked food become unbearable, for me, to modulate this higher consciousness.

I too, lately, being vegan and only about 50% raw, am having this challenge of finding myself going interdimensional, and the 3D consciousness that "the masses" exist in is getting harder and harder for me to be in....Got to find a way to transmute this energy.

Because of the work I do, traveling interdimensionally ALL THE TIME, It only takes a few weeks of raw for me to start to "flip out..." Ok...I'm committed to finding a solution to this dilemma!!

THank you again for posting this! Love and peace, Theresa

[RawKnitster]

I refuse to read anything about the treatment of animals, from either side. I'm sorry I even caught a glimpse of some of the offensive words here on that subject. Please go somewhere else to discuss it. Other than those posts, I appreciate this discussion. I'm storing all I've learned here for future reference.

In my relatively short time on raw (5 years off and on, the last 18 months solid), I find the biggest temptation to eat cooked foods have been when going through what I believe are episodes of detox. It is almost like the toxins hiding in my body have survival intincts of their own and are trying to make me eat cooked. Eating anything cooked will immediately stop the detox process.

I believe that while it takes 7 years to replace all the cells in the body that doesn't mean detox is over in 7 years. We still take in things that need to be detoxed every day. The detox process continues on as long as we are alive and raw.

Storm's talk about energy levels is very interesting. I sometimes feel a strange energy (perhaps I mistake it for detox?). I know that I could make it stop by eating cooked, but I would rather continue the raw life and feel everything coming my way.

Hasn't Victoria been raw about 7 years? Maybe it is the 7 year itch. ;)

[soulstar]

Smiley - I wanted to add my thanks for your sharing of Storm's writings on this topic.
Storm's words resonate and bring this discussion to a very interesting place.


In a similar vein:
I have been fasting for the last 2 weeks and I have found an incredible amount of energy freed up. It is amazing how much time and energy I normally spend thinking about food, shopping for food ,preparing food, let alone eating it.
So now while fasting, I find more free time, and a surprising level of energy. I may get a bit winded sooner from some labor ( shoveling deep wet snow), but otherwise I feel lots of energy coursing through me.

In order to channel this energy constructively I have increased my meditation, and simply being still. I am also feeling more present in my relationships. Fasting seems to clear some of my "channels" and bring me to
into the present.

I am sharing this, because I agree with Storm that being on a raw vegan diet also can be freeing energetically, and help us tune into our lives more, which can be uncomfortable if our lives are not where we want them to be.
There is an energy available to us that is looking for an outlet. If we don't have a provision for this energy we may become drawn back into our cravings as a way to tamper down the energy flow. Storm said it so eloquently.

Food has always been my numbing "drug" of choice. But when that is no longer an option, action is required. For me, that action springs from a place of stillness.

Peace to all,

Elena

[monkapotapus]

Thank you so much for posting about Storm - smiley!

I started to read this thread a couple days ago, but just couldn't get into anymore after the first page, or so.....but when I came to the boards tonight - I clicked on it - not knowing why......and it turned out to be just the thing I needed to read. I am not going to go & read the rest of it, because it just doesn't matter to me, but I am going to check out Storm's blog - per Revell's suggestion. Thanks for that~:o

[Eva]

Honesty seems to work pretty well for most of us.

In my personal case, I have been through my ups and downs with raw food, but when I committed to being a raw food educator, I committed to being 100% open about these things. I even have a really personal blog on the web with all of my struggles on the way to this point. Yeah, I do all raw now, but I can totally understand the difficult times and the pressure these people are under too.

In the end, it's ourselves we have to be accountable to as individuals. Paying too much attention to others' lives can be a real drag!

[sport]

Having read Storm's blog post the thing that I regret is that I did not find raw early enough in my life to ever expect to get to the place that he was in at the time of writing.
I will still travel my own journey and get as far as I can go on it.

Regarding the original post it will be interesting to see what the reaction of the Hippocrates Institute is about Paul Nison straying from the the raw vegan path. Surely they can not condone the consumption of the secretions of the mammary glands of a goat. I got the impression that his main source of income was through the institute.

Regarding Victoria. I think that she has made a great contribution to the health of the world and we should all be grateful to her for it. If she is having any problems right now then we should all send her our best wishes that she will overcome them.

[LNdolls]

I am grateful to have the chance to read these parts of Storm's journal again... in considering my own retreats from raw I see that I was and am not alone.. the release of energy and the need to use it or it making me feel nuts seems to be part of the deal and I feel so much less of a failure for having gone back to SAD eating to cope with all that energy. And I feel that much more ready to tackle what being raw means on a physical level.

[lovenlife]

This may be the KEY to the "slips" and the "fell off the wagon" etc etc posts and threads.
I believe raw immediately throws one into a higher level of energy that continues to build If one is not puttin it into something that involves a whole lot in their life, of exertion, it becomes almost unbearable. It is NOT the craving for cooked food but rather the deeper issue of the body wanting to slow down this high spin of energy that is a challenge to handle.

It may seem scary to some or too raw and vulnerable or many things. But it can create a desire to numb a bit and bring the vibration back down to a more workable level.

So then when one feel slow,,,hhhhhmmmmm they soup it up with straight green juice. Ok this is interesting....then are they, in reality, on upper s and downers (except is is food not drugs) to manage the day? Or handle a time in thier life or a stressor or whatever.

We may really be onto some good stuf f here. Storms post brought clarity to me as to what the struggle is for some, if not a large part of raw peeps.

[TaupeRawMan]

When I listened to Paul's video, it sounded like he had found some defecits, like bone loss, more than he was having cravings. It sounded to me that he thought the change was necessary to improve his health.

Did anyone else get that impression?

[Green_Woman]

Paul's video discussed how he visited a Doctor and the Doctor told him he was nutritionally deficient in multiple areas. Paul went on to claim that the Doctor also told him, Not just you, but ALL the Raw Vegans I treat have these deficiencies.

Based on Paul's videos as posted on GI2MR, he's not just adding some cooked/meat into his diet, but he's also trying to convince other Raw Vegans to do the same or they, too, might suffer great frights...

After watching his first video, I was actually somewhat relieved that I had never HEARD of this particular "Guru" before...

:)

Because now I have no reason to be disappointed in him. ;)

[Conscious Midwife]

I think that what is happening is that the raw vegan diet is working for some people too well. You reach a level of energy that is totally uncomfortable and in order for the organism to protect itself from this excess energy you start eating food that will negate the flow of energy.
\

I think Storm is point on with this. I had forgotten about this entry in his blog. I was just mentioning soemthig similiar that I had experienced on a previous RAW stint.

On one brief stint of RAW, my sexual appetite was so heightened I became concern that hubby woulkd not fulfil my needs and that I would start peaking at others. Freaked me out terribly, especially becasue I was around a coworker for about two days who seemed to vibrating in synchronicity with that feeling and his attraction vibe was so overwhelming that my hubby picked up on it during a chance meet and greet at work.

Another time I has been eating 100% RAW for about 7-8 days and I was getting overwhelmed by the unspoken emotions and feelings of others. I'm an empath an intuit yet haven't done the work to properly manage these senses/gifts so thsi wan't entirely new. But it was so confounded that I actually confronted some coworkers about lying and not really saying what they mean, right on the spot I called them and there emotions out. Usually when not RAW I would jsut let folks be, ignore the mask they were wearing and let them hide their emotions.

The most recent incident was about a year ago on my third day RAW I was questioned by a collegue who insinuated that I was on speed. Thought she was joking at first but then she went on and on and had other colleagues chiming in. I got so uncomfortable with the accusation that I sabotaged my RAW.

So I'm reRAWing Wednesday with the nergy of th new moon and as prepareed as I know to be with plans for healign yet overwhelming energy that comes from RAW.

I've given myself a huge to do list, I'm also into Reiki now and I fully embrace the RAWmasutra within. Hubby is now aware of my sexual energy peaks that come with RAW and of course is totally excited. We've used tantric massage in the past to help me manage this energy and now I'm truely ope to tap into the relationship that food, sex and divinity hold.

[Conscious Midwife]

By the way Storm and Jinjee has been composing music, developing a RAW Vegan Village and directing a movie now.

PHENOMENAL what a family can get done with the natures best fuel coarsing through their bodies. Divinely fascinating.... we are truely gods.

[hilarya_m]

who cares? why should we get shocked or depressed by decisions the others make for themselves? It's their life and their prob.

It doesn't make raw less beautiful, it doesn't change anything at all.

Amen Freshlight!

[snoops]

I love where this discussion has gone. I was very interested reading Storms comments. Looking back at my brief stints with 100% I can see that energy but never carried through long enough to see it to the ultimate. The other day after I had a green smoothie I felt buzzed, vibrating with excess energy. It was a breakthrough for me. I think we need to understand it to use it and this discussion has really put it out there. Makes the effort somehow seem easier for me anyway. I'm thinking of picking it up again at the full moon with LifeAgift!! I am excited about it.

[Conscious Midwife]

I love where this discussion has gone. ...I think we need to understand it to use it and this discussion has really put it out there. Makes the effort somehow seem easier for me anyway. I'm thinking of picking it up again at the full moon with LifeAgift!! I am excited about it.


Work with the Moon Energy whenever you want but I'm reRAWing with the NEw Moon this Wednesday and would love the company. WE could blog tag if you like. I'm also adding journaling to my efforts so that I cn truely examine and harness these energy effects.

It's always been there, the fact that food is both medicine and in it's denatured state a really bad drug. We use caffeine and sugar for a buzz, dairy and heavy foods for calm nurturing and comfort, greens for strength and bowel movements etc... At a 100% RAW we are definately talking about vibrating on a really high plan. I wasn't ready before but I am now.

:eek:Hmmmm... off to start a new thread so as not to hijack this one :D

[Green_Woman]

Well, I've been 100% RAW for up to several MONTHS at a time (2006, 2008, and now) so I can't really compare my experiences to someone like Storm who was 100% for YEARS....


...however, in the past AND now, I have noticed that rather than becoming MORE wired than I normally am (I was high energy since the day I was born, according to my birth Mum) I become CALMER, more CONTENT, my head CLEARS, I can RELAX, I can FOCUS, and I simply become a new person inside out.

After a year or few years 100% RAW, I'll be interested to see where it takes me...

I do, of course, have MORE ENERGY on 100% RAW, but I've always had SO MUCH energy that I don't think I really notice the difference that much, yet...

[T-Bird]

This is a time to speak out and BE REAL about what people are experiencing and not bury our heads in the sand and pretend that raw solves all problems and life in glorious with strawberry fields forever!

Well - I've been 100% since jan 11th - trying to get to my 1 year mark.


Initially, there were some results - more energy, etc. The past 6 months have not. It seems about the same as before, so I think maybe the results I had were more due to a lot of jogging, which I've not been doing lately - trying to keep up on it but not as much as I was doing.

I feel myself so tired that I can't put forth the effort for the juicing and smoothies and what not I was doing so much more of earlier on.....maybe it was summer energy and it's more sedate in winter?

I certainly have "believed" in raw - and for 6 years tried to get here, tried to be at least 50%. Finally I made it and no pot of gold or even a rainbow. I'm trying to figure this out, but I must say some serious disappointment is setting in.

Unless something happens - I'll be going in for some testing in early 2010 to help figure this out.

But magic and sunshine and rainbows - no. Over 11 months and no.

[T-Bird]

I dont see how( people saying well I will go make a thread of my own then because I am doing so wonderful on raw) can help others on the road.??? All we all for one and one for all? Or are we on this raw journey together of sorts and here for one another.
Maybe you can let all us lil peeps know what it is like when/ if we ever reach this "enlightenment".???

I can certainly see them wanting to glory in their sunshine and rainbows!

Maybe they're all young-uns? Maybe it takes a lot longer when older or carrying a heavy load of toxins? I've recently come aware that chicago is one of the most polluted areas in the country to live...I've lived here about 40 of my 45 years.....

It's getting more difficult to keep on for me, as I feel much the same as before. But I'm not ready to give up. Waiting to get through the holidays and into a new deductible year - just in case anything serious turns up in the tests that will require lots more testing or something. I have a HDHP - not much coverage.

I'm not into too much "treatment" - no slicing and dicing if you please.

Well - I think those of us who have struggles getting to the rainbow and are seeking answers can have a thread of our too, to exchange ideas and next steps and initiate trials etc. Things I've experimented with are b12, wheat grass juice, chlorella, going to add some spirulina too. Trouble is - even working these in on a regular basis is sometimes more than I have the energy to do. It'd be interesting if a group of us decided to try X and report our findings in the thread....

[lovenlife]

we are all forever and always ONLY "youn uns" or AT THE BEGINNING.

[Conscious Midwife]

Can someone honesty speak to this? Those who live in heavenly bliss pres onward toward that thread. This thread, to me, is about people getting REAL with what their concerns about raw really are. EVERYONE I know who is raw (many people) have these challenges.
Let us too "come out" in honesty and integrity????




I dont see how (people saying well I will go make a thread of my own then because I am doing so wonderful on raw) can help others on the road.??? All we all for one and one for all? Or are we on this raw journey together of sorts and here for one another.
Maybe you can let all us lil peeps know what it is like when/ if we ever reach this "enlightenment".???;)

Not sure if either of these post were directed at me , but I can honestly say that I went off to make a new thread because my commentary was so off base from the OP's intial question, and because when a thread give me an aha moment in another direction then I like to expand on it through a new thread or blogging.

Been a RAW enthusiast for years. Got the books, DVD's, Vitamixers to prove it:D, probably gonna buy a T-shirt soon too.

Starting new threads with new titles helps me. Because often there is some really good content that folks miss out on because they scan the title and the OP first entry and the new revelations and thoughts get lost in the shuffle.

If the post were not directed at me then cool. I'm reading both threads for two entirely different reasons. Didn't even know that there were "gurus" who'd fallen off their mark. Guess it's 'cause I'm my own DAMN GURU

All praise be to RAWmasutra the sublime Aboriginal Indigneous gODDESS WOMByn

and for $23.99 + S&H I'll send you a vial of my annointed new moon RAW ethereal urine;)


~~~~~~~~~

[Revvell]

Not sure if either of these post were directed at me , but I can honestly say that I went off to make a new thread because my commentary was so off base from the OP's intial question, and because when a thread give me an aha moment in another direction then I like to expand on it through a new thread or blogging.

As well you should otherwise it's called "hi-jacking" ~ if not pertinent to the OP.

[freshlight]

Well - I've been 100% since jan 11th - trying to get to my 1 year mark.



I certainly have "believed" in raw - and for 6 years tried to get here, tried to be at least 50%. Finally I made it and no pot of gold or even a rainbow.

did you try to do simple&saltless raw? pots of gold do come after 2 or more years in some cases

[freshlight]

thanks for posting Storms post-very interesting indeed!

[marc]

what can it do for you that others are not 100%

ho cares.

i am not.

i just look around and try to get the bst i can do and do what i can and want...i dont do it for anyone helse then me.

so if i do it wrong or eat something that might not be as good..i will pay for it.

and mabe some stuff not raw are better then raw.....why it as to be raw if its not the best thing for you...

everyone is deferent.

life is about experience thing and to be nice to eatch others..not to juge somebody because is not 100%.raw.C.MON.


becasue somebody boils some potato or steam some broen rice is an anti chris raw foodist...hahahha.

do wathever is the best you ..and dont follow people like a bunch off sheap a round the pasture.

take what is good for you and what you like.

marc

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Man Marc. I know you're relatively new here, but I swear you make more sense than a lot of people.

[Green_Woman]

Those who live in heavenly bliss pres onward toward that thread. This thread, to me, is about people getting REAL with what their concerns about raw really are. EVERYONE I know who is raw (many people) have these challenges.

Hmmm... well, I wouldn't say I'm living in Heavenly Bliss although I do practice (and have for years practiced) the Law of Attraction and tend to focus on Success/Forward Motion/Vision/Goals rather than allowing myself to spend much time in Turmoil/Struggle/Guilt/Defeatism....

My favorite quote (http://dauntlessdiva.com/2009/12/03/what-success-really-takes-or-life-lesson-from-a-british-bulldog/) is this:

Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never — in nothing, great or small, large or petty — never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense. ~ Sir Winston Churchill

For me, 100% RAW is Good Sense... when I stray from that path of Good Sense, I suffer. Excruciatingly.

That being said, Loven, I really get the vibe that by trying to push everyone here to "Confess, confess, confess your guilt!!! You DO have struggles, you DO fail, etc., etc." you're really expressing something else... something inside YOU, that MAY NOT be inside ALL OF US...

Accept that not all of us (and I may or may not be one of the "us") WILL have the same struggles as the rest... accept that some people DO reach a place of Strength and Security and dare I say it, Stability, Acceptance and PEACE not only in their Diet but in their Lives as a whole.

Or don't accept it. I'm not here to convert or change others. I have no stake/say-so in any life but my own, ultimately!


I hope that rather than be DEPRESSED and cast down by the "failings" of the "Gurus" (WHO decided who was a Guru, anyway???) that other Raw Vegans will instead be EMPOWERED to seek and find solutions to the failings of those who are Pioneering a Diet and a Lifestyle still very much under-development!!!

[timsmolens]

T-bird would you be willing to post what your basic raw diet now consists of, so we can see if there may be some crucial piece of the puzzle that is missing? Also add any supplements and superfoods you regularly consume and details about lifestyle/exercise/sunshine intake might be.

crucial to this raw lifestyle in my opinion are....

- LOTS of greens ( green smoothies, salads, and juice)
- 15 minutes of direct sunshine
- lots of water (distilled and remineralized)
- B-12 (quality matters)
- sea vegetables (real iodine is crucial)
- eating all colors of fruits and vegetables everyday to get variety of
phytonutrients (don't forget purple)
- 30 minutes of exercise
spirulina
bee pollen


Anyone else feel free to add what the essentials of their raw diet are... (maybe we need a new thread for this)

[Green_Woman]

I construed your repeated use of "Coming forward" and "Coming out" and "Will someone PLEASE speak HONESTLY" as what I said before...

I don't think I misread your posts.

I answered to a different aspect of what you brought up than was specifically requested because I have no NEED to "come out" and "speak honestly"... I, and I would venture to say MANY others here, ARE speaking honestly about our diet, the effects (good and bad) and what we are tweaking here and there.

Not everyone IS an ostrich with their head in the sand. Some of us really ARE experiencing magnificent things on RAW. And no, I doubt I will take myself over to another thread simply because I am experiencing Success! :D

Rather, I will SHARE that SUCCESS with people... in hopes it can help them as they go through the process (endless??) of tweaking THEIR diet/lifestyle, too.

I do try to let people know, though, that it HAS taken me 3 years of tweaking, of giving up in the past (oh yes), and of re-starting/re-booting to figure out some truly WINNING combinations on RAW...

[Aleesha Sattva]

green woman... i love you girlfriend (((hugs)))

[sport]

T-bird would you be willing to post what your basic raw diet now consists of, so we can see if there may be some crucial piece of the puzzle that is missing? Also add any supplements and superfoods you regularly consume and details about lifestyle/exercise/sunshine intake might be.

crucial to this raw lifestyle in my opinion are....

- LOTS of greens ( green smoothies, salads, and juice)
- 15 minutes of direct sunshine
- lots of water (distilled and remineralized)
- B-12 (quality matters)
- sea vegetables (real iodine is crucial)
- eating all colors of fruits and vegetables everyday to get variety of
phytonutrients (don't forget purple)
- 30 minutes of exercise
spirulina
bee pollen


Anyone else feel free to add what the essentials of their raw diet are... (maybe we need a new thread for this)

You forgot Essential Fatty Acids

[sport]

I see what Marc and the others are saying but it is a concern.
Why would someone who had experienced such a remarkable healing on raw food, and now relied on that healing to make his living, suddenly decide that he wanted to drink goat's milk.
I have met Paul and had lunch with him and spent some time in his company. He seemed to be deeply convinced that he was on the right path. That is 12 months ago. What has happened to weaken his resolve.
I am 100% convinced that drinking the milk from an animal that is so totally different to us is a crime against nature. Why would he do it.
Why am I asking you guys.
I am going straight to the source and asking Paul. I found him to be a straight guy so why not.

[klomasius]

I see what Marc and the others are saying but it is a concern.
Why would someone who had experienced such a remarkable healing on raw food, and now relied on that healing to make his living, suddenly decide that he wanted to drink goat's milk.
I have met Paul and had lunch with him and spent some time in his company. He seemed to be deeply convinced that he was on the right path. That is 12 months ago. What has happened to weaken his resolve.
I am 100% convinced that drinking the milk from an animal that is so totally different to us is a crime against nature. Why would he do it.
Why am I asking you guys.
I am going straight to the source and asking Paul. I found him to be a straight guy so why not.

Let us know what you find out.

[Revvell]

... he talks sooooo fast to get it all in...

He gets it all in because he talks so fast.

[lovenlife]

Hahahahaah that is tooooo funny. Tis right for sure.
Like the radio commercials!

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Locavores dont' necessarily eat whatever's in close proximity. Really it's about the green movement. Less gas, eat local, support community, etc.

Sport, I'm finally glad someone is jumpin on it!! That's what I hoped someone could do since page 1 of this topic lol.

[Raw Joy]

I have met Paul and had lunch with him and spent some time in his company. He seemed to be deeply convinced that he was on the right path. That is 12 months ago. What has happened to weaken his resolve.

I haven't had time to look at the video or whatever, so I'm just going on what I've read. I think it was said (somewhere) he decided to do this as he discovered he was deficient in a lot of nutrients.

I think that may be the crux of the matter. Some people see this as a weakening of resolution; some see this as a failure; some see this as a betrayal. I think he sees this as a a decision he consciously made because he believed it was best for him.

(shrugs)

[T-Bird]

T-bird would you be willing to post what your basic raw diet now consists of, so we can see if there may be some crucial piece of the puzzle that is missing? Also add any supplements and superfoods you regularly consume and details about lifestyle/exercise/sunshine intake might be.

I don't mind, but not sure if it is pertinent to this post - I have posted before and made some changes, but not to much effect.


daily
6-8 cups of greens - mostly organic, some from my garden:) We got down to about 5F, and after it warmed up - my cilatro, kale, turnip, and parsley were still going! Not sure about the beets, but the beetberry bush I have under cover of a large glass bowl is good for a smoothie soon!)

usual suspects: romaine and other leaf lettuces, kale, spinach, parsley, cilantro, beet greens
more occasionally: frisee, arugula, chard, turnip greens, dill, dandelion, basil, oregano

10 or more servings of fruit

Generally this fall: apples, oranges, pineapple, banana, papaya - currently a little less variety than in the summer/early fall...have added some dried cherries, peaches, and figs lately. Occasionally pick up some mango, persimmon, pomegranite, pears, a few raspberries.

Assorted veggies:
most commonly, sweet peppers, hot peppers, cucumbers, tomatoes, avocados, zuchini and yellow squash

sometimes celery, mushroom, olives, tomatilla, carrot, onion, burdock root, celeriac, beet root

Sea veggies: dulse, nori, sumetimes up to 20 nori sheets aday - when I got them - I can't stop. try to sprinkle a little dulse on my salads, add to flax crackers.

celtic sea salt and freshly ground black pepper as seasonings most days.

Weekly:

wheat grass juice, 4-6 oz, maybe 3-4 times
chlorella, 2-3 Tspoon, 3-4 times
coconut water, ~20 oz, 3-4 times
B12 methylcobalimin sublingual, I think 5000mcg, 2-3 times
honey, 2-3 times
Dates, 2-4 times
Any of various nuts (walnut, almond, pecan, cashew, macadamia, pine, etc) 4-5 times
sundried tomatoes, 2-3
Flax seed, 1-2 times
hemp seed, 3-4 times
other seeds such as sesame, pumpkin, sunflower, less often.
olive oil, 2-3 times
ACV, 2-3 times

All my seaweeds and nuts and dried fruits are special ordered online to be truly raw - at great expense as you all know...try to get everything I can organic, probably about 80% of everything is....likely 90%or more of total calories

I don't use agave, braggs, nama shoyu, or miso.

I think that's at least most of what I can remember the past month or so.....

[T-Bird]

Yes that is a great idea sport..I love it. Be nice to hear how that all works out. It was said he got a doctors report (yikes) and that the dr has found this (whatever his condition) to be true among many rawfood peeps. I would imagine some docs dont want peeps eating such nutrition.!!!!

How is the raw food crowd different from the garden variety vegan? Essentially the same diet, minus tofu and cooked starches, just cooked. How could it be so different?

Unless it's the 801010 or fruititarian peeps - those are the weirdos, not us, right?

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Cooked food and starches make a WORLDS difference. The difference is like the Equator and the South Pole.

[sport]

I got a reply from Paul where he sent a link to his website and said that it was all there but I have failed to find it. He is talking about the dangers of eating an all fruit diet but that was always his position.
I can not find any reference to goat's milk so I am no nearer to an answer.

[Green_Woman]

Sport - Look on GI2MR (Give it to me Raw) boards where Paul has posted his videos. Don't want to link them from here because, frankly. I was not exceedingly impressed with how... well... I guess, WEAK, his positioning sounded on it? As if he was really just tired of all RAW and wanted some new stuff but had to find a "reason" so he went to a Doctor (huh???) to get the Doctor's [super highly nutritionally informed] opinion...


Oh dear, my slip is showing again. :D

[Revvell]

O.k., just listened to his first interview. He admits he ate mostly nuts, seeds, high fat stuff.... dehydrated ~ not much in the way of fresh. His cholesterol was high; his bone density was low... to me, stop doing what's causing the problem ~ ease up on the seeds, nuts, dehydrated foods and eat more fresh.

Bone density comes more from weight-bearing exercises that food. Many older folk stop doing them which is why their bones thin AND heavy nuts, seeds, avos, coconuts, and dehydrated foods which to me means, light on the nutrients ~ a combination.

Then again, his body, his life, his choices.

[Raw Joy]

Thanks for passing on the information. One reason I hadn't commented before today was because all I had heard were bits and pieces of what others were saying.

[kaybee]

one thing i wondered--i watched the beginning of one of his utube videos--was it seemed he went for tests just "because"... it wasnt that he was feeling bad or anything, but then the dr. told him all this stuff was low, bone density etc and the doc said that that he had seen that problem in all? the raw vegans in the study.. i think he said he was in a study. and so he decided he'd better change his diet. thing i dont get is that he wasnt FEELING bad to start with, so maybe raw vegans CAN have lower levels of some of these things and still be strong and healthy...doctors are used to measuring things against a cooked food standard... i believe i have seen studies showing that vegans have lighter bones but they are just as STRONG as the heavier ones of meat eaters....maybe it was even for raw-vegans, i forget and dont have the source at hand sorry. but anyhow it seemed to me that he didnt have a problem with his diet when he WENT to the doctor and that his decision to make changes was based on what the dr told him about the tests, not on what/how he was feeling...

[klomasius]

one thing i wondered--i watched the beginning of one of his utube videos--was it seemed he went for tests just "because"... it wasnt that he was feeling bad or anything, but then the dr. told him all this stuff was low, bone density etc and the doc said that that he had seen that problem in all? the raw vegans in the study.. i think he said he was in a study. and so he decided he'd better change his diet. thing i dont get is that he wasnt FEELING bad to start with, so maybe raw vegans CAN have lower levels of some of these things and still be strong and healthy...doctors are used to measuring things against a cooked food standard... i believe i have seen studies showing that vegans have lighter bones but they are just as STRONG as the heavier ones of meat eaters....maybe it was even for raw-vegans, i forget and dont have the source at hand sorry. but anyhow it seemed to me that he didnt have a problem with his diet when he WENT to the doctor and that his decision to make changes was based on what the dr told him about the tests, not on what/how he was feeling...

Yes, Kaybee, you are right, there was a study (multiple I think) that has shown vegans (of the cooked variety) generally tend to have lighter bone density, but these studies did not find any significant variation in the levels of bone fractures or other bone pathologies.

I could write a tome on this subject, but I'll leave it at that. Might try and at least find that most recent study (published in the last six months).

[Green_Woman]

Klomasius - The study you may be referred to came out in Australia, if that helps any. :)

[Aleesha Sattva]

Yes, Kaybee, you are right, there was a study (multiple I think) that has shown vegans (of the cooked variety) generally tend to have lighter bone density, but these studies did not find any significant variation in the levels of bone fractures or other bone pathologies.

i can only imagine the people who eat fast food for pretty much every meal and drink soda daily... what must their bone density be like. ;) EEK

[marc]

I just want to say.....we all change.,,its part off life and are lurning.

even the best off us change why because we lurne new stuff along are road.

even the best raw foodist still lurne frome other people and this is life..its and adventure. we keep lurning until we die.

so not because somebody eat a certain way that wont chnage is ideal in the futur..it could happen to all off you.

some off you did not eat what you now in the past...some off you have lurene some stuff and chnage your diet for some reason .because some people cant eat what somebody hesle do or for some health reasons.

i taught being into raw it was being open mind..and not juge other people.

there not doing crimes...they eat something that is not raw or wathever.

its this raw thing a religion or what....?

eating raw is about gething healty...fribrant..and all. a personal choice off eathing what could be the best for you.

people do whatever you love and eat what you like...its you own lives..not somebody helse.

people are taking this to seriously....and this is not good.

be serieously about your own thing..

life is short and can be even shorter then you think....dont sweat for small stuff like that.

take care guys/gals.

marc

[klomasius]

Yup GW, the recent one came out in Australia, that's why I know of it. ;)

Aleesha, studies have also shown that obese people tend to have denser bones than people of average weight. Weight bearing exercise tends to have significant impact on bone density. researchers have posited that obese people have more weight per square inch of bone therefore the increased density could be because of this. I'd say people who eat fast food and soda would be more likely to be obese than the average person!

Also, another parameter, bone tensile strength, is often overlooked as a measurement of healthy bones (mainly because density is much easier to measure). Here's a excerpt of an email I'm sending someone about this:

I’m doing some research into both bone and teeth health, I believe they are significantly linked together (with the health of one often reflecting the health of the other) and are affected by both lifestyle and diet factors. Just like bones, I believe teeth health is improved by weight bearing exercise and is also affected by factors such as weight, hormone balance, age, diet, genetics and a host of other dynamic things.

Also, bone density is the most common measurement that is taken (mainly because it’s the easiest measurement to take), but it isn’t the only measurement, nor it could be argued the most important measurement parameter in determining bone health.

Bone tensile strength is also a major factor in the health of bones, this is the ‘bendiness’ of bones, i.e. how supple or brittle they are.

A brick is quite dense, but has no tensile strength, therefore when we drop it to the ground it is more likely to shatter than say a block of metal the same size. The metal does have significant bendiness, therefore is able to weather the impact force much better and keep it’s form intact.

[Green_Woman]

....i.e., doctors and most undereducated folks are looking at the wrong aspect of bone "health"?

[klomasius]

....i.e., doctors and most undereducated folks are looking at the wrong aspect of bone "health"?

Not 'wrong' just not the whole picture. Both are important, but the proof of the pudding is in the percentage of I guess what you'd call 'negative outcomes'.

If a population had 'low' bone density, but no increase (or possibly even a decrease) in negative outcomes like bone fractures, osteoporosis, bone deformities and any other bone pathologies then we'd have to question whether that particular population could be labelled as having 'unhealthy' bones.

Alternately, a population with 'normal' bone density that had an increase in negative outcomes, we'd have to question whether we could label their bones as being healthy, even though their bone density was within normal ranges.

The more measurement parameters we look at, the better overall picture we get. It can be very misleading to concentrate on a single parameter (such as bone density) and take that as being the sole indicator of our health.

Bone health is influenced by a HUGE array of factors, calcium is a major bone mineral and is one of the most dynamic minerals in the body, used for a vast array of complex processes. Calcium dynamics and bone health are influenced for example by total calcium intake, total calcium absorption (this can be far different to intake), other dietary factors and food intake, acidity/alkilinity of the body (and its different parts), degree of weight bearing impact exercise, hormone fluctuation, age, genetics, bone formation in utero and in childhood and so many other factors.

To take one sliver of info and base health outcomes on this is to really defy the whole scientific protocol.

We need more information than we currently have, population studies with a particular focus on teasing out what the varying parameters indicate for bone health and the formation of bone pathologies are needed.

It'd be silly of me, or anyone else (including Paul Nison) to say that decreased bone density alone is inequivocably a bad thing.

Just my 2 cents.

[Green_Woman]

If a population had 'low' bone density, but no increase (or possibly even a decrease) in negative outcomes like bone fractures, osteoporosis, bone deformities and any other bone pathologies then we'd have to question whether that particular population could be labelled as having 'unhealthy' bones.

This was PRECISELY the conclusion of the two studies I read earlier this year.

They concluded that a Vegan diet could NOT be called "unhealthy" since the Vegans in the study did NOT have a higher incidence of fractures...

[klomasius]

Exactly GW!

And this is why we have to take a step back sometimes and question the parameters of what we consider 'normal'.

The job of scientists is to constantly question the idea of 'normal' by applying logic, and analysing data in as non biased a way as possible.

We tend to get stuck in certain logic ruts and see data the way we want to see it,rather than perhaps the way it actually is. Many of history's greatest thinkers were people who were able to look at the data in lateral or unbiased ways and come up with things that people had never thought of/seen before.

So when I hear of supposed negative impacts of say a vegan diet or a raw vegan diet, I have to analyse it in the same way I analyse other incoming data and question whether the researchers have separated things like cause and effect, or not taken one slice of info and come up with an unsupported conclusion, or any of the various other things ALL people (scientists, researchers and lay people alike) are prone to doing if they are not aware of the possibility.

Question, be critical in your thinking, look at the data from as many different angles as possible, collect as much data as possible and we are all on the way to better, more logical conclusions.

[Green_Woman]

And this is why we have to take a step back sometimes and question the parameters of what we consider 'normal'.

So, so, SO true!

My friends think that my body's reaction to the Asbestos Exposure (it now has a name *laughs*) I experienced this weekend was ABNORMAL but that their own seeming lack of sensitivity to this dangerous chemical was NORMAL.

I would argue that my sensitivity to unnatural chemicals is NORMAL... and that a body numbed to dangers is ABNORMAL.

And yet, I also don't think it's that cut and dry... but it's a thought.

[klomasius]

So, so, SO true!

My friends think that my body's reaction to the Asbestos Exposure (it now has a name *laughs*) I experienced this weekend was ABNORMAL but that their own seeming lack of sensitivity to this dangerous chemical was NORMAL.

I would argue that my sensitivity to unnatural chemicals is NORMAL... and that a body numbed to dangers is ABNORMAL.

And yet, I also don't think it's that cut and dry... but it's a thought.

You're right, it probably isn't that cut and dried, most things in reality never are. :)

But I'd agree that generally, a reaction to a synthetic chemical is not a bad thing. Our bodies haven't evolved to deal with these things and so we often have reactions as our body's way of telling us 'ah, not good, get it out, get it away from us'.

Our response systems are pretty amazing, we can get used to so many things, but just because we can get used to something to the point that we no longer react to it doesn't mean that exposure to these things or the lack of response is a good thing.

[lovenlife]

The "adaptation" of our bodies to the world chemicals and pollutants is pretty interesting.

YES bodies have adapted! How? We are not dead yet. And isnt it amazing that ,on some level, the people still function. However just LOOK at the general condition of humanity!! Have they really adapted and are doing well?

I dare say not. Sickness, death and disease and esp CANCER prevail. Disease is the bodys way of saying "there is something wrong here".

Like the canaries they used to send in the coal mines ahead of the miners to test the air, those who get sick (conventional eaters) are the ones who show us all that is wrong in the world (many of these can site an instance of exsposure in a factory of whatever they did for their line of work)of air pollution, chemicals in the food and water etc.

So we who have cleaned up our bodies are also the canaries in the sense that we cannot handle these poisins. We are no longer a body overloaded but a clean body that REACTS right away to new chems entering. Thank you body!

Phew~ that having been said, Greenwoman how blessed you are to have this reaction and a clean body to care for the damage done!!!

Get well soon!!!!

[Eva]

I have to say, I took a few minutes (and a couple hours to download and) to watch the videos.

I was not too impressed.

Bottom line, there are a lot of factors that go into a healthy life. We need to be eating the food our bodies are asking for.

I personally, lately (as in the last couple months), feel absolutely STELLAR with more juices and smoothies, lighter foods. Except the young coconuts I've been craving like mad.

But I made this chai chocolate cheezcake for a client. Then accidentally sneezed on it. I had to make another one, so then I had a whole cheezcake and nothing to do with it but eat it. I ate 2 pieces for both breakfast and dinner yesterday. It was delicious, let me tell you. Mmmm.

But now I'm feeling sluggish.

Should I blame the raw diet? Veganism? My mother?

Should I go get some milk from some other species? Kill a rabbit? Fish for (ick) some scaly creature from the ocean?

Of course not!

I just need to eat a diet that works better for me, at this stage. We all do!

[Green_Woman]

Preach it, Eva.


I'm 100% with you!

[Eva]

Ha! Fabulous. :)

[57guy]

Since I started on my Raw journey 3 Months ago, I have watched hundreds of Raw Foods YouTube Videos and DVDs.
Almost every person on the videos looked healthy and slim.

That is except Victoria Boutenko.

She was definitely overweight and in my mind a fraud. She (Or anyone else) can eat what they want, but when they charge me for a book and several videos, taking about how they have been 100% raw for 15 years, she should run for Congress.
Glenn

[Green_Woman]

but when they charge me for a book and several videos,

So, they forced you to buy their materials? Wow! I didn't know Victoria was so POWERFUL!!!

Gosh, these Raw Frauds are SCARY!!! :eek:

[streetsurfer]

Should I go ... Fish for (ick) some scaly creature from the ocean?

I'm off topic here, but wanted to point out a funny connection you made. Maybe it was unintentional, or maybe you used it knowingly.

Ichthys is ancient Greek for fish, and from that comes Ichthyosis, a group of skin diseases suffered by humans and some animals (even fish), that can resemble fish scales (ich pronounced ick, being short for it).

[Revvell]

She was definitely overweight and in my mind a fraud. She (Or anyone else) can eat what they want, but when they charge me for a book and several videos, taking about how they have been 100% raw for 15 years, she should run for Congress.
Glenn

Wow! They charged you? Unknowingly or, did YOU make the purchases? *shakes head sadly* Take responsibility for what YOU do, not what they do, 'k?

[sport]

Since I started on my Raw journey 3 Months ago, I have watched hundreds of Raw Foods YouTube Videos and DVDs.
Almost every person on the videos looked healthy and slim.

That is except Victoria Boutenko.

She was definitely overweight and in my mind a fraud. She (Or anyone else) can eat what they want, but when they charge me for a book and several videos, taking about how they have been 100% raw for 15 years, she should run for Congress.
Glenn
I agree
If you talk the talk you should walk the walk.

On the other hand I do think that Victoria meant and believed what she said at the time. Times have changed and at least she had the gumption to stand up and acknowledge it.
If I could leave this world having done as much as Victoria to better people's lives then I would leave happy.

[Honchcrow]

Since I started on my Raw journey 3 Months ago, I have watched hundreds of Raw Foods YouTube Videos and DVDs.
Almost every person on the videos looked healthy and slim.

That is except Victoria Boutenko.

She was definitely overweight and in my mind a fraud. She (Or anyone else) can eat what they want, but when they charge me for a book and several videos, taking about how they have been 100% raw for 15 years, she should run for Congress.
Glenn

That's how I read your objection. Note: being a 100 percent raw doesn't immunize anyone from being overweight or getting disease for that matter. If you eat too many calories, you will become overweight. If you eat too much sugar, you may get cancer. Tumors thrive on glucose. To each their own.

Crow.

[Eva]

I'm off topic here, but wanted to point out a funny connection you made. Maybe it was unintentional, or maybe you used it knowingly.

Ichthys is ancient Greek for fish, and from that comes Ichthyosis, a group of skin diseases suffered by humans and some animals (even fish), that can resemble fish scales (ich pronounced ick, being short for it).

I did not make the connection, but that is very interesting! Thanks for sharing! :)




On the other hand I do think that Victoria meant and believed what she said at the time. Times have changed and at least she had the gumption to stand up and acknowledge it.
If I could leave this world having done as much as Victoria to better people's lives then I would leave happy.

Wow, great point. I have met Victoria and was so inspired and warmed by her. She seems to be a genuine person and has made such a great impact on soooo many lives!

Case in point, I even have relatives in Hungary drinking green smoothies!! Her book Green for Life was translated into Hungarian, so I was able to give it to my aunt when I was living overseas last year.

xxo Eva

[DeniseM]

The more measurement parameters we look at, the better overall picture we get. It can be very misleading to concentrate on a single parameter (such as bone density) and take that as being the sole indicator of our health.

This is spot-on.

A perfect example is with the drug Fosomax, designed to prevent osteoporosis by increasing bone density. It works by reducing the rate of bone turnover (causing the body to retain old bone tissue longer than normal) -- which indeed makes bones appear denser on DEXA scans.

The catch is that the "old" bone tissue is brittle, fragile, and useless; that's why the body naturally wants to replace it. By forcing bones to retain old tissue, Fosomax actually increases the incidence of severe fractures. (Yet it's still being prescribed! :rolleyes:) That's the danger of looking only at one parameter and ignoring the big picture.

As an anecdote, I got hit by a car this summer and shattered my elbow. The injury was very severe, yet it ended up healing almost twice as fast as the doctors were expecting. At one point, the doctor I was seeing asked if I was taking mega-doses of calcium or drinking gallons of milk, because she had never seen an adult bone heal so fast. I told her no, but I was eating a pound of spinach each day in green smoothies. :)

[Green_Woman]

Way to GO, Denise!!!

[klomasius]

That's fabulous Denise!

You know, I've heard of non raw people going raw when they fracture a bone simply for the healing benefits. I heard the designer Colette Dinnigan ( I think it was her) did that when she broke her leg or something similar on a ski trip. I've heard countless anecdotal stories like yours here and on other forums too.

I stabbed myself in the hand with a sharp knife while trying to open a coconut, made about an inch deep wound. Should have gone to get stitches but it was over an hour to the nearest outback nurse let alone a hospital so I figured why bother. The cut healed amazingly fast!

I'd love to see overall studies that give better information on bone health conducted. Fosomax is the perfect example of the reductionism of science making it severely blinkered. Whilst reductionism is necessary in many instances of understanding, scientists need to get out of the habit of taking a single parameter change from bad to good and applying it to overall systems where the dynamic is far more complex. I saw this so often in the scientific world before I left. :(

[T-Bird]

She was definitely overweight and in my mind a fraud. She (Or anyone else) can eat what they want, but when they charge me for a book and several videos, taking about how they have been 100% raw for 15 years, she should run for Congress.

Yeah - I felt the same - but I never bought a book or hers and din't feel defrauded. If I had - I would have. I know there are a lot of victoria fans around here - but she never gave me any confidence in her.

I had problems with a few of the things she said/did and I was not trusting that she had anything of value to teach me. I don't think she really knows anything much, just my take.

[T-Bird]

That's how I read your objection. Note: being a 100 percent raw doesn't immunize anyone from being overweight or getting disease for that matter. If you eat too many calories, you will become overweight.

Except that RAW was suppose to DIFFERENT. If it's not - what's the point.

supposedly - raw calories and raw sugar are suppose to be processed differently in more body beneficial ways - now it's not true?

[T-Bird]

Wow! They charged you? Unknowingly or, did YOU make the purchases? *shakes head sadly* Take responsibility for what YOU do, not what they do, 'k?

Yes - but if someone feels cheated and defrauded, why can't they express that here without 10 people ridiculing them for it?

[T-Bird]

I'd love to see overall studies that give better information on bone health conducted. Fosomax is the perfect example of the reductionism of science making it severely blinkered. Whilst reductionism is necessary in many instances of understanding, scientists need to get out of the habit of taking a single parameter change from bad to good and applying it to overall systems where the dynamic is far more complex. I saw this so often in the scientific world before I left.

They need to stop letting big pharma tell them how to treat!

[snoops]

I don't get why people are down on her because she is fat NOW. When she wrote the book she healed a lot of dis-ease in her family. Just because she doesn't eat that way NOW does not negate what she wrote THEN.

You can be disappointed that she is not toeing the party line but don't be disappointed in her book and what she has taught. I thought it was an excellent book and have no reason to be mad that I bought it regardless of where she is now.

[Green_Woman]

Yes - but if someone feels cheated and defrauded, why can't they express that here without 10 people ridiculing them for it?

I believe that Gary's comment below is more what I was highlighting:
but when they charge me for a book and several videos

If YOU buy someone's book (free will) it's ridiculous to then accuse that person of defrauding you (you bought the book - they did not force you to buy the book).

Likewise, accusing Victoria Boutenko of being a "fraud" because she is choosing now to include a SMALL amount of cooked vegan food in her diet while searching for solutions to her weight issues.... is comparable to me calling every person on these Boards "frauds" - because I'm pretty sure at least MOST of us have eaten cooked again at some point, though we Preach and Plug 100% RAW to all the Newbies and each other day in and day out!


Except that RAW was suppose to DIFFERENT. If it's not - what's the point.

I don't know what your point is, but my point is pretty damn good. :D 100% RAW works for me today, in this lifetime, in this region, in this house, in THIS Body... it works. And I'm not switching it or trading it out because someone in another region, another house, another Body doesn't agree.

[Mnbordergirl]

While it is may be unfortunate that these individuals may potentially be experimenting with another way of eating, it does not have to alter our point of view. I am very obese and people at my work have recently been inquiring how I have managed to lose so much weight so quickly, without effort, and without gymn time. Honestly, if it were not due to health issues that resulted from my eating of crap (i.e. SAD; anemia, low hemoglobin, obesity, and asthma) I probably would have tried this lifestyle. What I am saying is that everyone has picked on some level their lifestyle choice. The benefits or consequences of that lifestyle choice will either reinforce their decision or dissuade them from it. Truly, we need to focus on our individual journeys. And if they decide to come back to the fold, smile, and say, "Glad to have you back!"

[Mnbordergirl]

I hear you sister! So far raw has worked for me...as i have lost 25 lbs. However, it does move off slower when I get crazy over strawberry banana smoothies (my fave)! i have had to fight down more green smoothies.

[Green_Woman]

MnBorderGirl - Put those bananas and strawberries in your Blender with a couple handfuls of fresh baby spinach. Voila! Strawberry-Banana Yumminess and you get your Greens and hardly even notice them. ;) Or join the 30-Day Green Smoothie Challenge because we'll be exchanging new recipes there, too. (Link in my signature)

Keep it up, girl!! 25 lbs. is HUGE!!!!

[57guy]

Wow! They charged you? Unknowingly or, did YOU make the purchases? *shakes head sadly* Take responsibility for what YOU do, not what they do, 'k?

No one forced me to do anything, but I still think it is a fraud when you say and talk about one thing promoting your books and videos, then find out the author is lying about his or her life style.
You must have voted for Obama

[rawmom2006]

I agree with T Bird, I have a problem with people selling things and telling other people this is what I do and then finding out they are not even following their own advice. I am not talking about people that are not making their living off Raw. If I was buying a book about raising vegan children I would expect the author to actually be raising a vegan child. Being critical and feeling like someone was ripped off because they bought her book does make sense. Just because someone is nice does not make it right to make money off people by saying one thing and doing another.

[natasha83]

Maybe it's not to be discussed because it can be so controversial and give rise to so many agitated feelings...

But I am totally shocked at the sudden "coming-out" of several raw leaders at once with the news that they are not totally raw, or even totally vegan.

I am appalled at what seems like a wimpish capitulation of several others, nodding sagely and agreeing with those who are "experimenting" with things like goats milk etc. - almost on a whim - and saying they will continue to do it now and then "because it tasted good and didn't make them feel bad" - with absolutely NO proof that it was the best thing for them to do.

The vegetarian/vegan crowd has been saying similar things to us for a long time already. "It won't hurt-it could help." Please!

I think I am so flabbergasted that I'm not sure if I can gather my thoughts together enough to make an intelligent response!

And here I thought I was going to find out why a certain green smoothie lady had gained so much weight back. I wanted to know-I wanted help. I heard no answer to my question. Instead, I see several leaders calmly accepting the new - what - "philosophy"?

I can tell you, I was SO GLAD that Alissa wasn't one of them. I have a renewed appreciation for the firm guidelines on this site - to keep it on track for a stated purpose for those who are looking for it. I wonder what those other people are going to do now - I see no reason for them to have unique websites, lectures, tours, books, stores....they should throw their lot in with some very nice and well-meaning vegetarian/vegan organizations and be done with it.

While I agree that everyone certainly has a choice and they should do what they believe is the best for their bodies, I am afraid to imagine the effect that these announcements are going to have on people who have been trying to get healthier and were on the way to incorporating more and more fresh raw organic vegan foods into their diets. Now they may lose their motivation. I won't be snarky and say they are wimps anyway if they can be so easily influenced. Not at all. They are all people who are looking for better health and now they are set adrift by people who had built up credibility.

Enough? Okay. Sorry.


oooh who are the ppl?? can u name names?

[lovenlife]

This has all been covered in this conversation...read all above.

[Green_Woman]

I still think it is a fraud when you say and talk about one thing promoting your books and videos, then find out the author is lying about his or her life style.


Whoa, whoa, whoa. 57Guy, first - Victoria Boutenko is not out slamming down hotdogs and sushi, so you really need to actually do a little research into what she's including in her diet now that doesn't fit the 100% RAW stance anymore before you accuse her of fraud.

Second - She didn't lie. She isn't lying. She TOLD people she has decided to begin including some cooked veggies in her diet. If she was lying, she wouldn't have told you, now would she?

You know, to be honest, between your responses here and other posts you've made, I really get the feeling I am "talking to" someone younger than myself who has not yet had a chance to get out and live life and broaden their perspectives.

And yet, based on your profile, I'm guessing you are in reality my BIRTH FATHER'S age.

Stop. Step back. Breathe. Take a whiff of some roadside foliage. Look up at the Sky. The World is much bigger than you perhaps think it is... take a look around!!!

P.S. You don't seriously want to bring politics into this. If you think about it, that's really just asking for laughs. ;)

[Revvell]

Oh! Was that supposed to be an insult? *rolls eyes* When Victoria wrote what she wrote, that's what she was doing. She's allowed to change as any of us are. What she's doing now is obviously not what she was doing then. At least she's honest about it. There are many who proclaim 100% raw who are not and/or lie by omission.


No one forced me to do anything, but I still think it is a fraud when you say and talk about one thing promoting your books and videos, then find out the author is lying about his or her life style.
You must have voted for Obama

[klomasius]

Hang on! So far as I know she still drinks green smoothies, does that mean that Green For Life is a fraudulent book?

She still eats predominantly raw, does this mean that 12 Steps to Raw is a lying tome of crap?

Seriously people, think about it. When she wrote these books she WAS all raw! Anyways, does she HAVE to be 100% raw for these to still apply? I'd say not.

The fact of the matter is that her family HEALED their illnesses on a raw diet. Perhaps she should now burn all the books and not give out the information that I know for a fact has helped many thousands of people regain health and vitality.

I do understand your concerns, but the fact of the matter is that these books have significantly positively impacted on people's lives. She has come out and TRUTHFULLY told the world that she is no longer raw, but when she wrote those books she was and I'd guess that she still feels that most if not all of the details in the books are still powerful tools for healing and health.

I've personally seen many people healed as a direct result of Green for Life, I wish I oculd get more people I know of who are in dire health to read and take on board the information within this single book.

Take her truthful admittance that she is no longer 100% (but still predominantly raw) and the information contains within the book and then make up your own mind. She hasn't lied to anyone, she has been honest all along.

A fraudulent person would knowingly put out a book with information they know to be incorrect with the intention of making money, she has not done this.

[D'vorah]

I do, myself, feel a bit suspicious as the money factor rises. I used to go to an alternative med doc who would “prescribe” supplements. She also happened to sell said supplements. She’d make her patients fearful of living without them, as if life would be severely compromised if we didn’t buy her stuff and take it. I spent hundreds of dollars before I realized I wasn’t really different with them or without them.

So, if a raw guru is hawking lots of product and heavily pushing (rather than merely offering) products, I’m leery.

But let’s face it; none of the current generation of raw foodists were raised as such. They all came to the lifestyle with certain backgrounds and food experiences, so, why should they struggle less than we do with food addictions, cultural pulls, taste and flavor addictions? Because they teach they’re supposed to be perfect in their walk? How many sports figures have fallen from grace? How many preachers? How many teachers? There are no perfect humans roaming this earth, we’re all on a journey. Is it reasonable to expect a higher standard from these people? Absolutely. I know I do. But can I expect them to never stumble or fall? No, that’s not reasonable. And it’s not fair to them, it sets them up for failure.

Are there those that sell a concept, be it raw food or religion or politics, who are charlatans? Who are in it only and purely for personal gain? Who would use us, bilk us and leave us feeling like we’ve been duped? Oh, absolutely there are users and abusers. But there are also those who mean well, who know good, who do good but struggle nonetheless.

And how are we to know the difference between the one who means well and the one who means ill? Often times we can’t until after things fall apart and we find that we've been used. But the knee-jerk reaction is to lump them all together and call them evil. That allows us to hold on to the illusion of safety.

I remember as a child when my brother or I would begin to judge one another critically and my father would say, “Keep your eyes on your own plate.”

Deborah

[lovenlife]

Well said Dvorah. I was just thinking this morning about peoples personal blogs (stories of their lives) or even posts they have written here....and as time goes on (cuz it sure does) and one reads back over these, it feesl like a different person was saying those words.

We all change and grow (hopefully) and time changes soooo many things.

Does it make all that has gone before null and void? No. It simply makes it part of the journey. Rarely is a person who started off on raw the same one NOW. I know I am not.

[T-Bird]

Or join the 30-Day Green Smoothie Challenge

Is this challenge going 30 days with nothing to eat - just green smoothies?

Or just having a green smoothie each day?

Is it already in progress, or a new years resolution?

[T-Bird]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. 57Guy, first - Victoria Boutenko is not out slamming down hotdogs and sushi, so you really need to actually do a little research into what she's including in her diet now that doesn't fit the 100% RAW stance anymore before you accuse her of fraud.

Second - She didn't lie. She isn't lying. She TOLD people she has decided to begin including some cooked veggies in her diet. If she was lying, she wouldn't have told you, now would she?

You know, to be honest, between your responses here and other posts you've made, I really get the feeling I am "talking to" someone younger than myself who has not yet had a chance to get out and live life and broaden their perspectives.

And yet, based on your profile, I'm guessing you are in reality my BIRTH FATHER'S age.

Stop. Step back. Breathe. Take a whiff of some roadside foliage. Look up at the Sky. The World is much bigger than you perhaps think it is... take a look around!!!

P.S. You don't seriously want to bring politics into this. If you think about it, that's really just asking for laughs.

OK - Obama comments aside - don't know how that got worked into this:eek:


But I think that perhaps 57 guy is thinking what I'm thinking.....that VB has not been 100% raw for quite some time, kept it hush hush because of the money, and then came out of the closet when some other raw fooders did.

I personally had heard a lot about VB and finally went on utube to see what was up and watched some videos of her speaking....these were my specific problems - and why I discounted her as an authority on anything.

She was overweight and her skin was lackluster. Not that I'm the fashion police of anything - but if you are being paid to get up and talk about supposedly perfect health - get it together for yourself first. I was more skeptical due to the complexion than the weight - I know how when you are healthy and pure, your skin glow and shines like a beacon - there was no beacon.

In discussing wheatgrass juice, she said something like it is 70% chlorophyll....it is not - that was a error perpetrated by ann wigmore in the early days. Steve meyerowitz has done extensive work gathering all the 1st hand scientific research and reports that it is usually about 1% or less. If you are out promoting yourself as an educator, keep up in your field.

Her discription of her experiment on the freshness of green smoothies....was to make them, and have people drink them 3 days later - common - you could make a smoothie and do actually analyses on the smoothie when it's made, at 2 hours, 4, 8, 12, 24, 48, 72 and compare. Not that hard - real science - real meaning.


Personally - I think the woman's been eating a lot more than raw for quite some time, not to mention being a perveyor of misinformation. I KNOW that a lot of you like her and I keep my mouth shut - cuz I have my opinoin and you lot have yours.

But it did get to me when everyone gangs up on someone for expressing feeling "had" by purchasing her book. I felt at that point, I had to lend my support, as my feelings on her "expertness" are similar.

[Aleesha Sattva]

Something I always say to people, "Don't be a sheep, be a shephard." I also say "Don't believe what I say, try it out for yourself and see if it fits, if it does perhaps you'll want to wear it - if not toss it aside for now. Perhaps it will be useful later and perhaps it never will."

I look at the information out there and I do my own investigation. Google is my friend! I sift through what I find, try some, discard others and work everyday to find what works for me.

I don't put people on pedestals... cause I hate being on one myself. We are all human, we all have good days and bad days and we all make choices that are not always in our best interest. Oh well... it is what it is. That's how we learn.

Life is for learning and experiencing... and just because someone sells a product or a book or a dvd doesn't make them any less human than you or I.

And as humans... we feel pain when people speak badly of us. We feel bad when people are mean. This isn't directed at anyone... just a comment is all. Victoria is a human being doing her best for herself. So what if she eats something that isn't raw. It's her choice after all. It doesn't make the advice in her books any less valuable.

just my two cents... ;)

Oh and one more thing... there isn't a single person on this planet who I believe 100% - there isn't anyone I like 100% either (not even myself)... I just take what I like and leave (or accept) the rest.

[T-Bird]

you points are well taken aleesha, however I feel compelled to say one last thing



And as humans... we feel pain when people speak badly of us. We feel bad when people are mean. This isn't directed at anyone... just a comment is all. Victoria is a human being doing her best for herself. So what if she eats something that isn't raw. It's her choice after all. It doesn't make the advice in her books any less valuable.

There is a difference between being a private person and a public person. When you write a book, get up and lecture, and get paid money to do that - be prepared to be critiqued - especially on evidence that contradicts you.

Same with Atkins, weil, chopra, anyone. It comes with the territory, and she made the choice to become a public person just as obama and palin did - they are both put through the wringer everyday.

Is that wrong? some of it isn't nice, and some of it is downright "below the belt" but overall, they need to be vetted and critiqued and questioned and totally examined so that voters can make informed decisions.

Same with these health authors. To discuss and disect their ideas, people can more fully develop their own.

You can neither follow a Shepard nor be a Shepard until you learn to walk.

[lovenlife]

lovenlife is lovin your two cents;) Aleesha yup and ditto for sure...it simply and totally does not matter one iota no mo

[Sir Lunchalot]

I just purchased and reviewed the "Raw for Life" DVD. And Victoria Boutenko was featured in part of the DVD. She was visibly overweight which didn't suprise me given what Karen Knowler had said about the rawfood lifestyle. She (Karen) said she'd been at her heaviest and lightest on a raw food lifestyle, though she clearly looks as though she's resolved any outstanding weight issues.

I think that if I cap my seeds and nuts and stick to fruits, veggies, sprouted legumes and grains and exercise regularly, that should do it. That's based on what is going on now with me and also happens to be what I have heard from a number of posters. I'm using a one ounce limit per day for all high fat (e.g. nuts and seeds) and using no oils at least until I get to my ideal weight. I'm also limiting high sugar fruits like bananas and mangos to one serving per day. So far, I'm happy with my results.

If Paul Nisson wants to drink goat's milk, that's fine with me. I know I will never drink or eat any animal products because a large part of why I want to be vegan is ethical and environmental. And those factors will guarantee to me that I will never stray.

Andrew

People come and go. And their credibility is in the eye of the beholder. That said, once someone ceases to be vegan or otherwise ceases to be credible for whatever reason, that's ok. Personally, I discount their contribution (as obviously ethics and ecology were never part of their feeling to start with) and move on to people who have been stable and consistent and healthy in their message. Plenty of folks like that, David Graham, Cherie Soria, David Wolfe, Sarma Malngallis, Susan Schenck, Karen Knowler and others. It's just like anything else in life. There are people who are serious about their lifestyle and commitment and there are those who aren't. I choose the former.

Andrew.

[Green_Woman]

This is an aside from main topic in response to T-bird's question:


Is this challenge going 30 days with nothing to eat - just green smoothies?

Or just having a green smoothie each day?

Is it already in progress, or a new years resolution?


30-Day GS Challeng (http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=198812144024&topic=14577)e guidelines right here! :) Join us - Green Smoothie newbies and Oldies alike welcome.

Now, back to your Regularly Scheduled Broadcasting...

;)

[Revvell]

Personally, I discount their contribution (as obviously ethics and ecology were never part of their feeling to start with) and move on to people who have been stable and consistent and healthy in their message. Plenty of folks like that, David Graham, Cherie Soria, David Wolfe, Sarma Malngallis, Susan Schenck, Karen Knowler and others.

All of these people have changed their message as they've changed. David Wolfe in particular. He use to espouse live, living food. Now it's all packaged and he sells it! Ummm, methinks you mean Doug Graham?

Also, none of us knows what any of these people are doing behind the scenes. I've heard tales from others who know some of them better than I do and, again, I say ~ who cares? It's about find out what works for you.

In my book, I tell people, recipes are guides. If you don't have one ingredient, substitute another. All these people are guides. If what they are currently sharing/selling/talking about doesn't make your heart sing ~ ignore them. That's it!

[lovenlife]

and I am ALL up for making my heart sing....thumpety thump, la-la-la-la

[SevenKindsOfCookie]

I like Victoria a lot. I haven't met her in person, but she seems like a really nice person and I admire her work as both a mother and a motivator.

I do have a problem recommending her books and videos to people who are new to raw though, because I know that a lot of them wouldn't take it seriously because of the way Victoria looks.
Who would ask the man living in a cardboard box for career advice? Who would ask an unhealthy person for nutritional advice?
Most people would want their "guru" to be in the position they strive to be in.

Personally I know that Victorias health issues can't be caused by her nutritional advice. There's simply no way that she would be looking like that if she really ate the way she promotes. But that's because I already have experience with it.

I don't know her personally, but my intuition tells me that she's the kind of person who takes care of everyone else but neglects herself. That's what I think is the main issue behind her problems.
I can relate to that myself and that's what I had to work with the most to be able to stick to a healthy diet.

I really wish that she manages to work it out. She's a sweet lady and she has done so much for peoples health by promoting green smoothies.
She makes a living out of it, but she's certainly not in it for the money, I can tell that.

[SevenKindsOfCookie]

As for Mr. Nison, I don't think he's being honest about the reasons behind his change. He talks about low bone density being one of the reasons. Wouldn't weight lifting exercise be the first place to look then? It has been proven that it affects bone mass a lot more than the diet.

My guess is that he has become a dairy junkie and that he tries to justify it rather that dealing with it. But that's just the feeling I get from hearing him talk about it. He doesn't sound honest.

But if he truely does it for health reasons then I'm all for it. We can't pretend that we know everything about nutrition when we infact know so very little.
There's surely room for more experimention.

[Sir Lunchalot]

All of these people have changed their message as they've changed. David Wolfe in particular. He use to espouse live, living food. Now it's all packaged and he sells it! Ummm, methinks you mean Doug Graham?

Yes, I meant Douglas Graham, author of the 80-10-10 diet. The statement that all of those folks have changed as they've changed is speculation and may or may not be true. The question is did they change while saying one thing and doing another, not just whether they changed


Also, none of us knows what any of these people are doing behind the scenes. I've heard tales from others who know some of them better than I do and, again, I say ~ who cares? It's about find out what works for you.

So everybody's the same?? Don't think so. They certainly look or act the same or even self-disclose the same. Take Karen Knowler, the woman is an open book, tells it like it and was. She has tremendous credibility with me. By self-disclosing that she was at her heaviest and lightest on a raw diet, she earned a great deal of respect from me. She's obviously found what works for her. And I think I've found what works for me too! ;) how's about that??

Andrew.

[Revvell]

Who would ask the man living in a cardboard box for career advice? Who would ask an unhealthy person for nutritional advice?

They can always tell you what NOT to do and there are people making money doing exactly that.



I don't know her personally, but my intuition tells me that she's the kind of person who takes care of everyone else but neglects herself. That's what I think is the main issue behind her problems.

True that and, as she admitted in my last interview(s) with her, she sits and the computer all day, hates exercise so, eats more than someone who is sedentary should.

[Revvell]

Yes, I meant Douglas Graham, author of the 80-10-10 diet. The statement that all of those folks have changed as they've changed is speculation and may or may not be true. The question is did they change while saying one thing and doing another, not just whether they changed

Who knows and how is it my business? I know many are not admitting they eat other than raw ~ which is what I stated.




So everybody's the same?


Where do you see I said that?

[Beth]

If what they are currently sharing/selling/talking about doesn't make your heart sing ~ ignore them. That's it!

I love this--exactly!

Very interesting thread.

[Pissenlit]

Well, I just listened to Nison's interview on Rhio and Leigh's show (http://tribecaradio.net/wpradioblog/hookedonraw/show-85-december-122009/) and I must say I find much of what he says totally sensible. Nison may not be a rocket scientist, but he shows quite a reasonable and common-sense driven approach.

I find it a bit disturbing that a bowl of goat's milk can create such a stir and sometimes hateful comments everywhere on the raw internet.

The more I think of it, the more I have a feeling there is something deeply, deeply wrong with the '100%' approach.

'100%' is not something that exists in nature - it is a pure intellectual construction, something created by our mind to satisfy its permanent seek for absolute answers and strict guidelines - creating a fixed, reassuring world of convictions.

But being 100% this or 100% that has nothing to do with the real world. It's an intellectual choice. When I see disgusted comments about 'insect's poo in grains' on some raw boards, I can't help but feeling that what is at stake is not science nor health, but purity. And purity is a totally religious concept. In the raw world, many people simply create their own food religion.

If you choose to be 100% vegan because of ethical considerations, that's fine and you should go for it. Everyone is entitled to live according to one's convictions. But don't pretend you're on a health journey or that health is your primary concern or that it is the only healthy way. Something very different is actually leading you.

The whole problem in this discussion is the great confusion between health science and intellectual convictions.

When it comes to sex and food, we have (almost) total freedom of choice. This is unique in the animal reign - we are the only creature that will have sex any time we like (along with the Bonobos ;-) and will be able to eat anything we find. I believe this capacity was meant to enable us to populate the entire world. It's the building block of our fabulous adaptability.

So we have this problem : where we live and how we eat is all a matter of decision. But since we were designed to survive on all kinds of diet, what can be really right, really wrong?

Since ages and ages Inuits rely on animal fats for their vitamin D, Nomads have milk from their skinny cows and Chinese eat cooked rice. Are all these people wrong? Have they been fooled all this long in believing they could live their lifestyle in their part of the world? Isn't there anything we can learn from them?

Frankly, sometimes this whole raw movement just lacks a bit of perspective.

As for the tiny bit of animal products here and there, remember that our friends the great apes will have fruit, green foliage, and the occasional ants' colony. They don't have to worry with all the damn theories.

Peace and bananas everyone.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Well, I just listened to Nison's interview on Rhio and Leigh's show (http://tribecaradio.net/wpradioblog/hookedonraw/show-85-december-122009/) and I must say I find much of what he says totally sensible. Nison may not be a rocket scientist, but he shows quite a reasonable and common-sense driven approach.

I find it a bit disturbing that a bowl of goat's milk can create such a stir and sometimes hateful comments everywhere on the raw internet.

The more I think of it, the more I have a feeling there is something deeply, deeply wrong with the '100%' approach.

'100%' is not something that exists in nature - it is a pure intellectual construction, something created by our mind to satisfy its permanent seek for absolute answers and strict guidelines - creating a fixed, reassuring world of convictions.

But being 100% this or 100% that has nothing to do with the real world. It's an intellectual choice. When I see disgusted comments about 'insect's poo in grains' on some raw boards, I can't help but feeling that what is at stake is not science nor health, but purity. And purity is a totally religious concept. In the raw world, many people simply create their own food religion.

If you choose to be 100% vegan because of ethical considerations, that's fine and you should go for it. Everyone is entitled to live according to one's convictions. But don't pretend you're on a health journey or that health is your primary concern or that it is the only healthy way. Something very different is actually leading you.

The whole problem in this discussion is the great confusion between health science and intellectual convictions.

When it comes to sex and food, we have (almost) total freedom of choice. This is unique in the animal reign - we are the only creature that will have sex any time we like (along with the Bonobos ;-) and will be able to eat anything we find. I believe this capacity was meant to enable us to populate the entire world. It's the building block of our fabulous adaptability.

So we have this problem : where we live and how we eat is all a matter of decision. But since we were designed to survive on all kinds of diet, what can be really right, really wrong?

Since ages and ages Inuits rely on animal fats for their vitamin D, Nomads have milk from their skinny cows and Chinese eat cooked rice. Are all these people wrong? Have they been fooled all this long in believing they could live their lifestyle in their part of the world? Isn't there anything we can learn from them?

Frankly, sometimes this whole raw movement just lacks a bit of perspective.

As for the tiny bit of animal products here and there, remember that our friends the great apes will have fruit, green foliage, and the occasional ants' colony. They don't have to worry with all the damn theories.

Peace and bananas everyone.

THANK YOU!!!! You are the answer to my prayers.

[Green_Woman]

If you choose to be 100% vegan because of ethical considerations, that's fine and you should go for it. Everyone is entitled to live according to one's convictions. But don't pretend you're on a health journey or that health is your primary concern or that it is the only healthy way. Something very different is actually leading you.

I would suggest that you would be wise NOT to pretend to know the total motivation of others, and why one person or another chooses to be 100% Raw Vegan.

I agree that we ought not dictate others' lives.

I disagree that your overall point is accurate.

[Sir Lunchalot]

Who knows and how is it my business? I know many are not admitting they eat other than raw ~ which is what I stated.

I think the point for me is something someone else said earlier on the thread that when one chooses to be become a public person and sells goods and services, that makes their credibility very much my business insofar as I may find them more or less authoritative based their own experience.




Where do you see I said that?

You didn't say it. I inferred it from this statement "Also, none of us knows what any of these people are doing behind the scenes." I find it a bit of an overstatement.

[katchmoleen]

Personally I know that Victorias health issues can't be caused by her nutritional advice. There's simply no way that she would be looking like that if she really ate the way she promotes. But that's because I already have experience with it.


This is simply untrue. You have your own experience but it is with YOUR body, not hers. I eat very much the way Victoria recommends. I am 100% raw. Last month I only lost 2 pounds. This month, maybe I won't lose anything, but I am still all raw. I am a woman of "a certain age" and I have also been very heavy. I do believe people who have a lot to lose can easily get stalled at a higher weight, and older women have it the toughest. Look at Phil McClusky. He has lost 200 lb but he still looks heavy. I don't see people dissing him. Is there a higher standard for females, just as in so many areas? Please.

I may never lose another pound, but I will continue to sing the praises of all raw. I have added exercise and hope that will break my stall, but according to you I must not be eating all raw, since I am still overweight. No other factors involved at all? Not so.

[lovenlife]

AS always Katch. goodie points for sure...very very true and good for you what you have lost !!!! Onward my friend!

[Pissenlit]

I would suggest that you would be wise NOT to pretend to know the total motivation of others, and why one person or another chooses to be 100% Raw Vegan.


I wasn't addressing anyone in particular, Green Woman.

But I think many people chose to be vegan by compassion for the animals or care for the environment, what is very respectable. I don't have any problem with the walk, only sometimes with the talk.

[Revvell]

I think the point for me is something someone else said earlier on the thread that when one chooses to be become a public person and sells goods and services, that makes their credibility very much my business insofar as I may find them more or less authoritative based their own experience.

Insofar as you make it your business. They're talking THEIR experience. You'll have your own.



You didn't say it. I inferred it from this statement "Also, none of us knows what any of these people are doing behind the scenes." I find it a bit of an overstatement.

Really? so, you DO know? Whatevah!

[Revvell]

But I think many people chose to be vegan by compassion for the animals or care for the environment, what is very respectable. I don't have any problem with the walk, only sometimes with the talk.

I choose what I eat for MY health. Being that I'm vegetarian, whatever benefits me ripples out.

I've seen so many "vegans" and vegetarians who smoke, drink, do drugs, etc. Their choice, yet, for me, it all starts here. My body is where I live and that's where it all starts in my world.

[Sir Lunchalot]

Insofar as you make it your business. They're talking THEIR experience. You'll have your own.

They are also selling goods and services and putting themselves out to the world as authorities in some cases. In those situations, if I'm considering buying one of their books or taking their advice, of course it's my business. If we were talking about someone unpublished or just stating their opinion, that's a different matter.

Andrew

[Revvell]

They are also selling goods and services and putting themselves out to the world as authorities in some cases.

THEY are not putting themselves out as authorities. THEY are writing books and putting out information mostly based on THEIR experiences and/or research. If you, or I or anyone else chooses to purchase the products, it's up to us. I do it for research ~ not because I consider them authorities. My body and my intelligence is MY authority.

Osho always said ~ "Don't believe me. Do it for yourself and see if it makes a difference." (Paraphrasing) That's intelligence.



In those situations, if I'm considering buying one of their books or taking their advice, of course it's my business. If we were talking about someone unpublished or just stating their opinion, that's a different matter.

AndrewI'm published. Am I an "authority"? They are ALL stating their opinion. It's what we do; it's what we write about. It's what we know at the time of writing ~ unless of course, we don't. YOU choose to make it your business; they don't. *shrugs*

[lovenlife]

Ok bring your book to the beach and I promise I will read it and not burn it.;)

[snoops]

Pissenlit - I'm glad you returned from your self imposed exile. That was a good post and I thank you for it. I also agree that 100% is not necessary the BEST goal for me at least and you expressed it much better than I would have.:)

[Sir Lunchalot]

THEY are not putting themselves out as authorities. THEY are writing books and putting out information mostly based on THEIR experiences and/or research. If you, or I or anyone else chooses to purchase the products, it's up to us. I do it for research ~ not because I consider them authorities. My body and my intelligence is MY authority.

I agree that if we purchase their books it's up to us. I also think that what someone does in relationship to what one says has bearing on their credibility and authority. Whether someone holds themselves out as an authority depends on how they describe themselves and what they describe. Some authors do a better job of that than others.


They are ALL stating their opinion. It's what we do; it's what we write about. It's what we know at the time of writing ~ unless of course, we don't. YOU choose to make it your business; they don't. *shrugs*

Some state their opinion; but is that all they do? Some state opinion as fact. Some present fact in a weight of evidence approach. In most cases facts and opinions are mixed. Yes, I make it my business to evaluate someone's credibility when deciding whether or not to purchase a book. If I think someone is a phoney or lacks credibility, I mostly likely won't buy it.

Andrew

[SevenKindsOfCookie]

I may never lose another pound, but I will continue to sing the praises of all raw. I have added exercise and hope that will break my stall, but according to you I must not be eating all raw, since I am still overweight. No other factors involved at all? Not so.

First of all, I was talking about how people new to raw would react if I gave them a book or DVD by Victoria and said "Hey, here's some great information that could really benefit your health!".
They would most likely look at Victoria and think "So this overweight lady has been on this raw food diet for over a decade and she looks like that. It don't think I'd want to take her advice."
I'm just saying that there are probably other factors at play there based on my experience.

Also, Victoria gained 60 pounds back after losing 120. I know that it's hard to lose weight when the metabolism has slowed down, but at least you shouldn't be gaining 60 pounds if you are on a healthy raw diet.
It's very possible to gain weight on a 100% raw diet if you overeat or eat the wrong things. So percentage is certainly not everything.

[Green_Woman]

But I think many people chose to be vegan by compassion for the animals or care for the environment, what is very respectable. I don't have any problem with the walk, only sometimes with the talk.

Now you're contradicting yourself...

*sigh*

This whole thread is quite exhausting for me. It's also rapidly becoming a waste of energy! I am saddened by people... but maybe I'm still just feeling the effects of what I watched this week, and how it impacted my thinking about Humanity... or rather, what it awakened in me that I have thought/believed/witnessed/experienced for so many years.


*backs out quietly and goes back to her pleasant, healing RAW way*

I LOVE RAW!!!

:D


Ciao!

[joyce09]

" Victoria gained 60 pounds back after losing 120."

How did Victoria explain her weight loss? And how did she explain her weight gain? Anyone knows for sure?

[rawlight]

I just watched the Paul Nison videos. Before I watched them, I wondered why, when he got the results of his blood work, he didn't try to deal with that news by tweaking his diet. I mean that's what you do if you believe in something like this. You say, "Ok, what am I doing or not doing (raw) that can fix this?" But in the video, he goes on to say that for years while living in NYC, he ate mostly dehydrated fruits and nuts. So evidently, he wasn't eating a variety of healthy foods or one that contained lots of leafy greens.

That makes sense then, as to why he was unhealthy. So it wasn't that he was raw that caused his health issues, it was what he chose to eat and what he left out that made him unhealthy.

[Pissenlit]

Quote:
But I think many people chose to be vegan by compassion for the animals or care for the environment, what is very respectable. I don't have any problem with the walk, only sometimes with the talk.

Now you're contradicting yourself...

I think you are missing my point. I believe people have the right to chose a diet that is perhaps not totally optimal, if that's what allow them to keep their integrity of mind. But please, don't go calling names about the ones who change their path.

Besides, there is more to health than just food. Making such a fuss about Nison's goat milk, that's not very healthy.

But I guess we can never clear the misunderstanding short of a face-to-face conversation - if only.

The infuriated threads about Nison all over the place only show that, raw vegan or not, people like to separate themselves in 'the goods against the bads' and will fight about anything, any time. I agree it's very saddening.

[sport]

I have just finished listening to the interview that Paul Nisson did with Rhio and I have a new respect for him. He makes a lot of sense.
I agree with him that a cup of fresh goat's milk is better than some of the so called superfoods.
I am vegan and will not be indulging but I certainly agree with his point.
There may come a point in my life when I will not have a choice.

[lovenlife]

WHAT IF...we are ALL wrong? Just maybe.

I have seen people who eat what they want, whenever they want and you should see them! They are happy, vivacious, glowy, and alive!. It is because they are living a life they love and loving life.

My health changed dramatically since getting laid off from my job two months ago. Has my eating changed drastically? No. Is it just the food...??? NO it is not.

These peeps may not have been caring for their whole selves.

Life is way beyond food.

[DeniseM]

I have seen people who eat what they want, whenever they want and you should see them! They are happy, vivacious, glowy, and alive!. It is because they are living a life they love and loving life.

This is so true, and so important to remember.

Diet is just one aspect of health -- and "physical" is just one aspect of existence. You could be the most diligent 100% raw food eater and still be in poor health if you aren't also nourishing your emotional, psychological, spiritual, etc. sides. Raw can do wonders for mood, but you can't eat your way to true happiness... that comes from living a life that's on track with your individual purpose.

[ltcartwright]

As for buffalo, no, they are not endangered; buffalo that is available for purchase has been raised for that purpose, just like cattle. I don't eat cow, I woudn't eat buffalo.

As for including cooked, if we're eating a lot of nuts and seeds, chances are good we're eating at least some cooked ourselves. It's possible to find some raw sources for some nuts and seeds, but if I buy local, I have no certainty (beyond trusting my grocer or hfs) that they are, actually, raw. Nutritional yeast? Not raw. Some of the sweetners? Not raw.

And, if we're looking for perfection in our gurus, we have two problems; one, we're asking fallible human beings to be perfect, and two, we're hanging an awful lot of significance on what someone else does.

The fact is, there are no viable long-term science based studies on the results of any purely raw diet and certainly no studies that compare one version of raw to another (with seeds and nuts / without seeds and nuts / high fat / low fat / superfoods, etc, etc, etc). Anyone can write a book on raw diet saying pretty much anything they want to and base it upon anecdotal evidence, which carries a lot of weight in the raw food movement, because anecdotals is what we have. Those that have the smarts to conduct such a long-term reliable studies don't seem to have the drive to follow through.

People have repeatedly had posts pulled for talking about Doug or others; this board isn't about Paul or Victoria or anyone else, so, why are we having this talk at all? What does it have to do with Alissa? I personally don't want to see another thread that goes on and on and bashes Victoria for her weight. That's not what this board is here for.

Deborah

This post sums up everything that needs to be said on this topic.