did you read [Archive] - Raw Food Talk

vegbaby

11-07-2004, 08:51 AM

Thanks! I felt very sad reading her latest entry (Nov. 4th) even though I haven't followed her journal and have only read a few entries. Not because she's no longer raw but because of the flack she's received. What a way to leave the raw movement. I hope none of us is ever so negative. I can't imagine it after what I've experienced on this board. Maybe I'm speaking out of turn, and after I read more of her journal I'll feel differently, but I feel strongly that we are all individuals, and what works for each of us might be completely opposite of what works for someone else.

I think there is some truth to what Faith says about letting go of feeling you can control everything in your life. I often get people who say to me, "Everyone has to die sometime; I might as well enjoy life while I can." I understand that, but for me it's about enjoying life to the fullest...AND at the same time feeling that I'm doing the very best to take care of this body that God gave me while I'm here on earth. I owe it to myself and my family and people who care about me to do that.

On the other hand, I cannot become self-righteous or feel that I'm immune to illness or anything bad happening to me physically. It's not about being perfectly healthy or beautiful or thin or whatever for me. It's about loving myself, respecting myself, and working with the natural flow and energy of my physical being. That's a daily learning process for me, and I will never give up trying to reach my own personal nirvana, because I truly believe that's one of the things I'm meant to do here on this earth.

Reading her list of raw food propaganda, I just wanted to say, wait a minute, this isn't about rules and ultimate truths without any flexibility. You don't have to be 100% raw if that doesn't work for you (for whatever reason), but it doesn't have to be all or nothing. In Faith's case, she's feeling so anti-raw right now, I personally think it's better that she's heading in a different direction. Her life needs some positive energy in the area of diet, and she's getting it in the way she feels comfortable. If that doesn't work for her in the long term, she'll know it and change to something else.

But while reading, I kept wondering if she'd read Gabriel Cousens books Conscious Eating or Rainbow Green Live Food Cuisine. One of the things I really like is that he is a proponent of the idea that we are all individuals, and we must really cater our raw diets to our physiological constitutions. It doesn't sound easy in his books, but it's clear that no one raw diet works for everyone. I wish Faith (all of us, really) could have had the support she needed to find the raw diet for her, the one that made her feel like the ayurvedic diet she's eating now. In fact, GB promotes ayurveda in his books but from a raw point of view.

On the one hand I feel like she's gone from one extreme to the other, because she isn't feeling balanced right now, so she wants to blame it all on raw food propaganda. On the other, I think it's a good thing that she is listening to her body and trying to find her ultimate truth.Anyway, I've rambled. What do the rest of you think?

Jay

11-07-2004, 09:01 AM

Melanie,

you were not rambling! You are completely right, I couldn't have said it better, I totally agree! :D
It's sad indeed that Faith got such negative respons, because she's right about some stuff, I haven't read everything in her journal, but the things she wrote on the 31st. of October have some thruth in them... I hope she's fine with whatever direction she choses to follow.

dstar

11-07-2004, 01:00 PM

Hi everyone!

I just joined the board today, came across this thread and skimmed through Faith's journal from June up till now. I am being truthful when I say that I don't feel like she gave it 100% to see what the raw lifestyle can truly offer her. Her diet was more vegetarian than vegan or raw. There were a lot of Pepperidge farm cookies, cooked soups, eggs, grilled cheese, macaroni and cheese, etc.

I am sad to see her go and that she had such a bad experience. I have been raw for three weeks and so far so great!! I couldn't be happier. When I digress even just a little bit from the diet I feel horrible and nauseous. That's why I am questioning Faith's experience. But then again, I am a newbie and I guess this intrigues me because I am scared of it happening to me. I feel like I found something so wonderful and I hate to see that it didn't work for someone so I am trying to find logical reasons of why it didn't work out for her. Not having a complete raw diet is the only thing that I could come up with.

Curtis

11-07-2004, 05:45 PM

Welcome dstar! Glad to have you here :)

tglasco4

11-07-2004, 06:14 PM

I have read that journal. I have been following Faith's journal for quite awhile as I also journal on that site. I responded to her journal on the site as well. Overall, dstar and vegbaby hit the nail right on the head. I have learned much from this situation.

Todd

Curtis

11-07-2004, 08:18 PM

I agree with vegbaby more than dstar :)
God made everyone unique. 100% raw people are not more superior beings than folks who are 80% raw. I do not think that Jack Lalanne is 100% raw but he just turned 89 or 90. Some of you younger folks may not know who he is but he came along teaching exercise and eating healthy food in the 30's. His diet is high in raw living food but not 100%. I do enjoy all I have learned thru this forum and researching on my own but I am troubled sometimes by the total lack of love for some people if they are not 100% raw. Is 100% raw better? Maybe, but everyone is made differently and I think we should encourage everyone we know to adopt eating more and more living food. The standard american diet is mostly cooked food for every meal, besides full of dairy and meat. And we are a nation, in the US anyway, of very sick people getting sicker by the year. One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to know this has to be connected to how much dairy,meat and cooked food we eat. :)
Anyway I wish Faith the best and believe she will find what is right for her as we search for what is right for us.

flutterfly

11-07-2004, 08:52 PM

Curtis, Thank you for saying what I didn't know how to put in words. You said it so nice.

dstar

11-07-2004, 09:31 PM

Yes Curtis, very nice post. I am not 100% raw yet although I strive to be. I was just surprised at the major resistance towards the raw lifestyle by Faith when I could see from her food journal that she wasn't completely raw. I would really like to hear if there is anyone out there that was 100% raw and made the realization that the raw food lifestyle is a fad and turned their back on it because it didn't help them one bit. I was looking at Faith's journal for that reason but because it is not 100% raw I couldn't make an informative conclusion. I am supportive of what anyone feels they need as far as diet goes. I can't tell anyone what is particularly right for them. I am not intending on being a raw foodist that turns down their nose on people that are not 100% raw because that would be hypocritical of me. I am not here to judge but here to learn. I am in the inquisitive newbie stage and I want to know why things do or do not work for people even though I know that everyone is different. I know that through a forum words can be misconstrued because you can't hear the tone in my voice. But believe me, my post is not coming from a place of "if it's not my way it's not right". I am coming from a place of just questioning everything in this learning stage. I hope that it's not coming off as being negative.

SimplyRawesome

11-07-2004, 09:37 PM

On a lighter note, my grandmother passed away in July at the ripe old age of 103. (Stay with me here - this really is on a lighter note! ;) ) She died of "old age" of all things. No illnesses. So made all of her food from scratch and it was definitely cooked. She also liked beer. I dont' ever recall her eating a salad until she moved in with my mom. Here's my concern: If I continue this raw lifestyle, does that mean I'll live to be 110??? :eek:

Sorry ya'll ... I just wanted to lighten things up a bit. Over the past twelve years of being a "nutritional enthusiast" if there's one thing I've learned it's that EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT as Curtis said, and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. We need to be in tune with our bodies and we will know what to do.

I'll shut up now! :D

Jennalle1771

11-07-2004, 09:55 PM

Just thought I'd add my two cents on this topic. I haven't followed faiths journal but I did read her last entry and what everyone has posted. I struggle myself with raw on a daily basis although it has nothing to do with the raw lifestyle itself. I've struggled on every diet that I've tried. I've learned that its all psychological. The truth is that raw works but you have to be ready for it.
I have found myself that alot of vegans or raw foodist are extremely passionate about their beliefs which can come across at times as harsh but I also know that they can be extremely loving and caring and open. I hope i don't offend anyone when I write this.
I don't consider anyone a failure or weak if they can't stick with raw or don't feel its right for them. Some people (myself included) have issues with food that lie deep within. I am emotionally addicted to food. Being raw has forced me to deal with those emotions and its hard. Some poeple transition so easily to raw because they don't have the baggage that others do. I wish for me that it would be an easy tranistion. So I can relate to faiths last entry.
I'm debating not posting this but everyone has their opinion and this is mine.

SimplyRawesome

11-07-2004, 10:11 PM

And I appreciate your post Jennalle1771. You've expressed what is on your heart and that's what we are hear for - to share and not to judge. You've made a very good point that I had never even considered, and that is the emotional attachment to food.

I'm going on my seventh week of being 90-95% raw and so far, I really don't miss food much at all. I guess I just don't think about it. I have so many other things that keep me busy that eating seems to be a nuisance to me! Now that I said that my stomach started to growl! :rolleyes:

Anyway, you are right, we are all unique - we all struggle with different issues. I don't judge anyone for the choices they make. Lord knows I've made a few doozies in my lifetime! I'm glad you posted and gave us a different perspective. Oh, and don't beat yourself up if you struggle with reaching 100% raw - just do the best you can. Big hugs!:)

Curtis

11-07-2004, 11:04 PM

Diana,
Just checked out your web site, very nicely done. :)

ehartmanf

11-08-2004, 04:29 AM

How do I find Faith's journal?

Helen Of Tennessee

11-08-2004, 06:29 AM

Hey Edda,

Scroll up about 13 posts, to my last post, and you will find the link there ;)

<>< Helen of Tennessee

Curtis

11-08-2004, 06:49 AM

Unfortunately Helen it looks like her journal has been taken off the site, can't get it to open. So much for free speech. :)

The requested URL /Journals/Faith/FaithRawJourney.htm was not found on this server

Helen Of Tennessee

11-08-2004, 07:05 AM

Thanks Curtis for letting us all know.

I didn't follow her journaling. I just read her last entry. It sounded like some people were coming down on her hard, but these people may be been those that are fairly new rawfoodist. Sometimes peoples emotions aren't mellowed out until they have been raw for a while and these people who have been judgemental prior to all raw, will still behave in this way when first going raw. I "try" to remember that when I get attacked, but it's still hard. With Faith not being raw, I'm sure that didn't help with the sensitivity she had toward the comments made to her, and again those making it, probably are still struggling with detox. It's just a shame she gave up before she actually exerpience the neat feeling of all raw. I've been there and I'm trying to get back there!!!! So remember this, should you try to attack me :D - Just joking. I have not seen this happen on this board. This is a WONDERFUL board and am so glad I found it!!!!!

<>< Helen of Tennessee

tglasco4

11-08-2004, 07:35 AM

Couple of things on this issue. I really don't believe anyone here is suggesting that Faith's situation was about whether she was 100% raw or not. But one of the assumptions I made when choosing the raw lifestyle (it may have been wrong of me, I don't know) was that it was definitely a vegan lifestyle. Which would mean abstinance from animal products (flesh foods and dairy in particular). If one decides to clean one's body and is eating cheese or eggs it is definitely counterproductive. I am not 100% raw and I am not sure if I ever will be, but I am 100% vegan. Jack Lalanne eats fish and chicken (although he is very careful about the preparation), he is a human I admire very much. But he eating habits are an example to me because of what he avoids (processed food, white sugar, flour) more than for what he consumes. Faith's journal and picture were removed per her request. Many of us who journal there contacted her to ask that she reconsider, but to no avail. She wants to be healthy and happy (like all of us) and I pray she gets what she is seeking. I don't believe the raw vegan lifestyle is about a relentless pursuit of 100%, but it is a journey and a process. May all of us be successful in that journey.

Peace.

Todd

Curtis

11-08-2004, 08:13 AM

Yes Todd I just got a reply back from Michelle at fromsadtoraw. She let me know Faith was getting apparently very hateful e-mail about her journal. Ah well some folks apparently think it is their job to correct everyone. Sounds kind of like the christian church eh Todd? :)

SimplyRawesome

11-08-2004, 08:31 AM

Sounds kind of like the christian church eh Todd? :)
:eek: Tsk, tsk, tsk... Not everyone who claims to be a Christian acts like one. Besides, "Christians aren't perfect ... just forgiven." And finally, judge not ...;)

John 13:35

flutterfly

11-08-2004, 08:35 AM

I am so happy to see the last journal that Michelle wrote defending Faith in her choice. Michelle(sadtoraw) is being very honest in her feelings and her journal. I respect that.There may a lot of hate mail sent to Faith but I know for a fact that she has had some nice mail also. I wish Faith all the best.

tglasco4

11-08-2004, 09:04 AM

amen to that flutterfly.

I know Faith has gotten some nasty emails, but it would have been nice if she focused on all the nice ones she got.

Todd

marigold

11-08-2004, 09:52 AM

most people on raw do seem to be vegan but i have come across people that eat raw animal and raw egg or cheese..

dstar in ans to your question..i was all raw for just over a year..before that maybe 6 months 95% raw..and i feel no RAW DOESNT NECESARYILY WORK weather you are ready for it or not..thats what pisses me off - others saying oh its the best thing...your taste buds will change you will have lots of energy blah blah and many say this to me on here that havent even been all raw !!

i feel the raw movement makes so many claims that raw is the answer that raw is wonderful raw is for all raw is tasty and its become one big ism.

well for many raw doesnt work -.and for those of us who it doesnt give us energy and glowing health it comes as a big dissapointment - when you speak out about it we are told to do it longer eat more greens or its detox or - but never that maybe just maybe raw isnt the answer for all and maybe just maybe raw isnt the wonder its touted as being....

i for one celebrated faiths words..they sh ould be on the front pages of all the raw papers...and no am no the only one saying this..there are a lot of people dissalutioned with raw.

yes yes i think raw food is great ..and its poss to heal or feel great on it.but me thinks there is a bit too much ism about it..dogma ..and thou shalt ...even on hre

namaste
marigold

now i will probaly be kicked off here

Helen Of Tennessee

11-08-2004, 10:05 AM

Hi Marigold,

You probably won't get kicked off of here.

I'm asking this with all sincerity, I was wondering why you read and post on this particular board? I'm here because I want to eat all raw and come here for that support. I know that there has to be a lot of great boards where they have meat and eggs in their recipes and they all support that. When I use to eat meat I was on a great board, by a lady named Victoria. I still use some of her recipes for my family. Since I don't eat meat, I'm no longer on her board, but I didn't leave telling them they were wrong. I just left and looked for another board that suited my eating needs.

I guess when I came to this board, I though the people, and most do, would be here to support my journey to all raw. If I find it doesn't work for me (so far it has and even at high raw I FEEL so much better), then I'll go elsewhere to find what might work for me and join a board that supports what I'm looking for.

I'm fairly new here, so I'm not sure what your other posts are like. I noticed you are a "root" so you must enjoy this board and have added a lot of support.

<>< Helen of Tennessee

dstar

11-08-2004, 10:08 AM

You won't be kicked off!! We are free to say whatever we feel. Your post makes me think a lot because so often people are looking for THE ANSWER. People want to feel comfort and security that their way is the best way. What I have learned from reading and commenting on this thread for the last two days is that there is not one right answer, the worst thing that we can do is to try to pinpoint an answer because that will cause us to become closed minded and the added stress that we will have to deal with from making the effort to be 100% raw will do more damage than eating a cooked meal!!!
I guess if it takes too much effort and it's not fun then why do it? It won't be "successful" and you will end up feeling more like a failure. I am learning that balance is key, everyone is different and to just listen to what your body and heart tells you. Boy, that takes a lot of the pressure off!!!! I am a newbie and I know that I have been fanatical at times!! Happens a lot when you think that you have found "THe Answer" and someone is challenging that but then again....everyone is different. It would be a boring world if we were all the same........

Love this board,
dstar

rawjojo

11-08-2004, 10:14 AM

Helen of Tenn.

This entire thread could be summed up by what you just said. Excellant post! I believe everyone is on a personal journey and this board is just a tool to help everyone succeed. It is a place for people to escape and learn. I agree that if it isn't the right one for you then maybe it's time to move on and continue learning about yourself and find a place where you fit in just perfectly.

Peace to you all,
jojo

Alissa

11-08-2004, 10:36 AM

Marigold,
First of all, you are not going to be kicked off, freedom of speech, its a great thing.
I love that faith had the courage to write her thoughts and what she went through on the raw diet. i totally agree also that no one way is best for everyone.
as many of you know if you have read my post or know me at all i am all for there being a lot of different ways to do this and i think the dogma of the raw foodism is a bad thing as well.
we are all individual human beings and not one way works for all of us, just like not one cooked food diet works for everyone. look at all the different ways people eat a cooked diet!
i think a major problem lies with trying to do this diet 'like everyone else' or like i have said many times in the past, being too strict and not having fun with it and not having the freedom.
But one other major issue i want to point out is that 'not being ready' issue.
This is really a biggie. When i talk about not being ready i dont mean it in a judgmental way as in you have to be enlightened before doing this diet or have worked out all your emotional baggage first. But i can tell you that if you are not dealing with your emotional stuff this diet will bring it up. Because you are not 'stuffing down' your emotions or hiding behind your comfort foods your issues will certainly arise. We are not always aware of this and do not always know that this is related to the emotional and tend to blame the food that we are not doing well with raw foods, not getting 'enouph' or not feeling full, we dont always want see that it could be the emotional.
As for this diet not working marigold, i do have to disagree with you. I have never worked with anyone who this diet does not work for. Does that seem like a bold statement? i have seen people fail on this diet, i have seen people go off of it, but i have never seen anyone go on it and restructure it too suit their needs and not have amazing life altering changes from it. i work with a lot of people and i hear this many many many times, 'its not working, i cant stay on it, i am on it but im not seeing the results'. Yet when i look over their diet they are inevitably eating SOME cooked food, have gone off of it a few times, or eating a very poor raw food diet'.
I have never worked with someone who has been 100% raw and has not improved their health and their life. As far as faith is concerned if you read her journal you will see that she was NOT all raw, not even close!
I think thats fine, i think that if she wants to eat cooked food all the more power to her, but i dont think she can judge the raw food as in 'not working for her' because she was not all raw!
Also, i really believe that if you do not feel emotionally balanced on raw food and you feel you need to eat cooked food, that is fine also, be were you are with whatever your going through, but to judge the raw diet as not working when your not even working the program is just as judgmental as the raw fooders who judge the cooked food eaters.
Marigold, i know you have struggled with the raw food and if you need to white knuckle your way through it, that is no way to live. If you have to 'fight' with yourself over what your doing i would suggest taking a step back and going slow and not putting boundaries or limitations on yourself but rather working through the issues of why food is a struggle and not a joy and something you love and do with ease.
Life is too short to be in a constant battle of will with yourself over your food choices. There is so much more to living then what you eat, you need to make the right decisions that best suit you as i believe that is what faith has done which i really commend her for. But saying this diet doesnt work is what you and others are judging all the raw fooders for doing in the opposite, its all a judgment and we really dont need any more of that in our word. More compassion is a beautiful thing on both sides of this issue. We are all just still learning and trying to figure this out after all or, at least I know I am.

tglasco4

11-08-2004, 10:42 AM

AMEN Alissa.....period.exclamation point. AMEN.

Wrecked Spark

11-08-2004, 11:05 AM

DITTO

:)

Cheers and blessed be the path we have all chosen for ourselves, with openness, support and faith.

oh... pardon the awful pun there. :o

aunaturelle

11-08-2004, 11:46 AM

I am knew to this whole website thing and I havn't read any of Faith's journals, but I have really enjoyed reading all of your comments. Everyone has something pertinent to say on these issues.
I think ultimately we are all in this for the same reason: to attain the cleanest healthiest bodies we can.
For me, raw is the fastest most direct route to this goal other than fasting.
But the problem with taking the fastest route is it can also be the most difficult. Cleansing is not an easy process. We experience all types of uneasy and often horrible
symptoms, both mental and physical. Everyone comes from a different physical and mental perspective. Some of us have cleaner systems initially due to genetics or lifestyle and some of us are more convinced that what we are doing is right. But I think everyone has moments of weakness when a physical crisis (rough cleansing) happens. And if we're being hounded by judgemental raw foodists, or well-meaning loved ones it can be all to easy to give up before you've seen the miracles that clean-eating can bring.
The saddest thing for me is that the most of the wirld doesn't have a clue about what is food (fuel) and what isn't.

aunaturelle

11-08-2004, 11:51 AM

Yes Alissa!!
Thank you, you are so right!

racheljj

11-08-2004, 12:31 PM

I have a journal on the fromsadtoraw site, and I've posted some thoughts re Faith's entries there. As many have mentioned here, different food choices work for different people. I don't think it matters if she was all raw or not because even going high raw didn't work for her body. She may have gotten even more ill rather than healing if she'd done all raw. And, yes, I know (by know, I mean that some of them I know personally in real life and others I've met online) people who were 100% raw for months at a time, and they got sick and couldn't keep doing it. I've known people who are doing all raw and look unhealthy. I've known people who did all raw for a year or more (and while pregnant) and who have to deal with allergies for their babies now. At the same time, I know people who are all raw and are thriving! Personally, I think all raw is very beneficial for short term healing; however, I wouldn't stay all raw for a long time because I think my body needs more proteins and nutrients than we can get from only fruits, veggies and nuts/seeds. And, I'm grateful to Faith for having the courage to share her story with us (and I'm thankful to Michelle for allowing debate and questioning on her site) because different things work for different people, and it's good to question things to discover what you really believe, what really works for you.

Rachel Johnson

Rawkinlocs

11-08-2004, 01:04 PM

Wow, I am learning a lot from this thread alone.

One of the things I have realized is that, for a LOT of folks raw is just another "quick fix" for weight loss or curing/healing from something (not directing this at ANYone here...just a general observation from different places online) much like we look to a pill or an herb,etc.

But everyone has different reasons for deciding to give raw foods a try. I am on a few hair boards for African Americans who have chosen to wear their hair in it's natural state and no longer put relaxers in it to make it straight. But straight hair is something that is DEEPLY embedded in us that we HAVE to do in order to "get a man" or be acceptable or be beautiful. And it's been engraved in our psyches for so long, many of "us" still can't accept the hair God gave us.
(I'm going somewhere with this...I promise) Even in that, there are different reasons black women decide to stop straightening their hair: religious reasons, health reasons (no longer want to put the toxic chemicals on their hair/scalp), "conscious" reasons (accepting their blackness and Afrikan heritage), for fashion (it's the "in" thing to do), some for a "break" from the damage they've incurred from chemicals and then as soon as the hair gets healthy, grows back and gets longer they relax it again), etc.

Some women fight and struggle with their natural hair, do things to try and "tame" it to do what it's not intended to do and just have an overall miserable time with it. But some feel it's the BEST thing they've ever done.

There have been countless judgmental statements made on both sides and the end result always ends up being that a person is gonna do what they feel is right for them regardless.

I am seeing the same type of things with raw foods. Some go raw for health reasons, some strictly for dietary reasons, some for religious reasons, some for conscious reasons, and some because it just feels right.

I see it this way, for ME I didn't get into this because of any health or weight issues...I did it because I don't want to continue the cycle of sickness and disease that is in my family. I continuously PURSUE it because it feels right (to ME) and because of my religious beliefs, I feel it's the right thing to do.

But if a person does better eating 50% raw and %50 cooked, then that's what they have to do... but for some of us it's all or nothing. As it's been said, everyone is different. I don't think anyone should say raw doesn't work because it does. Nora Lenz once said to me that during my transition to raw, there are going to be many times I will slip and eat something crappy (not just steamed veggies, we're talking the things I CRAVE) and when I do, appreciate it as part of the process and move on because it's waaaay unhealthier to emotionally feel bad over it or to beat myself up over it. Alissa has made similar statements as well.

Rachel you said that even when she was high raw she felt sick...so it's not possible that the small amount of cooked food she was eating was doing it?

Since when do natural, whole fruits and veggies make people sick? It just doesn't add up. It's not the FOOD making people sick...yeah, maybe it's poorly combined food or maybe it's too much dehydrated food or maybe it's just the body going through changes as it tries to eliminate garbage out of the system. But apples, oranges, greens, lettuce, all the foods that come from nature and are appropriate for our consumption won't make us sick. I just can't get with that. Even if someone eats cooked foods and incorporates a great deal of raw food into their diet, the raw foods can't be blamed for them being sick...sorry I just don't see it.

But I digress...it is sad what happened to Faith in that she got hate mail and all that and it's sad when raw foodists get too overzealous and attack others. But blame the movement, not the FOOD.

Sorry this was so long :o

rawmom

11-08-2004, 01:37 PM

Great comment Rawinlocs about blaming the movement not the food-I couldn't agree more. It just doesnt' fit that fruits/veggies, nuts and seeds can do anything other than benefit you. I have to agree with Alissa and others who stated that Faith's diet was not raw-I read her journal and you really can't say that raw didn't work for her since she never did 100% raw. That being said, I don't have to live in Faith's body-she does. She should do whatever feels right to her and if that means cooked food, then by all means get cooking. The bottom line is, you must do what is best for your own body and what makes sense to you-what do you really care if someone disagrees with you if you know the truth for yourself and are experiencing health and enjoying life? We each are entitiled to our own opinions-and that is what they are, our opinions. For those of you that our journalling on the fromsadtoraw site as Faith was, you must know by now that you are going to have people responding to you who are not going to have nice things to say-my Mom always said "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" Maybe these folks didn't benefit from that type of education, so here's what I would do with the nasty email's you may get from them, DELETE them before you read too far!!!

Rawmom

tglasco4

11-08-2004, 01:55 PM

Rawkinlocs,

Like I said to Alissa, AMEN and AMEN again. Sometimes I think when we fail at something, our nature wants to blame something other than ourselves (The food, the movement...blah, blah, blah), how about this...I just messed up. This is just a general statement and not directed at any specific person. (I don't want hate mail :D )

Olive

11-08-2004, 02:04 PM

Some of the fanatacism and lack of scientific inquiry I've seen in the raw world disturbs me. Not that science is truth or the final word, but it has its place. I think raw is one of those movements that draws people who want to be different and at odds with society just because--not for the health or spiritual benefits but because of personality issues. It's one of the reasons that I have told very, very few people that I'm going raw. I don't want the backlash, I don't want the critique from other raw foodists (which I've experienced already in trying to connect to local community), and I don't want to be seen as totally loony. At the same time, I recognize exactly how different I am from my culture's definition of "normal." :) At some point I am sure I will be more comfortable being open about my food choices, but not for now. I also don't know about 100% raw. I wonder about the vegetables, like broccoli, that have much more available nutrition when steamed and paired with a fat (the vitamins in broc are fat soluble). I know 100% will be better psychologically for me, because a little bit can open the door to a whole lot! But nutritionally, I am not yet convinced that 100% is necessary.

Olive, questioning

P.S. I just wanted to add that one of the things I love about this board is the support, kindness, openness and groundedness. Not only have the people here made raw be approachable, but doable as well! :)

Rawkinlocs

11-08-2004, 02:16 PM

Hey Olive,

I think for ME, not needing (conventional) scientific proof isn't a problem because I am a Christian God said He would use the simple things to confound the wise! :D I moreso trust life science and the science of nature than I do conventional, medical-industry-related science...just the conspiracy theorist in me I guess!

It's not so much as about being "different" but just realizing that what I've been led to believe all my life has some problems and I guess I also believe there is a conspiracy going on far beyond what our eyes can see!

But I feel where you're coming from and again, if 100% is not for you, you have to do you. About the broccoli thing...I was watching a tape and they guy said that there are some foods that are biologically appropriate for us - we can easily obtain it (trees) we can easily chew it and we can easily digest/assimilate it. But not everything in nature is for our consumption. Sure the nutrients might be in it, but that doesn't mean we need to eat it to get those nutriets, but can get them from the foods that were designed for us.

He said there's a certain kind of tree bark that is LOADED with nutrients, but does that mean we should eat it? No because we couldn't chew it or digest it. That is why we eat a lot of things that aren't easily digestable without cooking it only because we have been taught it's good for us...but there are plenty of other foods that we CAN eat and easily digest that will give us the same nutrients.

I don't even eat broccoli, raw or cooked and I don't feel I'm missing out on anything by not eating it. Just some food (pun intended) for thought! :p

VeganWannaBe

11-08-2004, 02:24 PM

I'm computer illiterate I guess .... will someone please be so kind as to direct me on how to get to the sadtoraw post by faith ...
Thanks bunches ~

Rawkinlocs

11-08-2004, 02:25 PM

I'm computer illiterate I guess .... will someone please be so kind as to direct me on how to get to the sadtoraw post by faith ...
Thanks bunches ~

Per her request, Faith's journal was removed from the site.

VeganWannaBe

11-08-2004, 02:28 PM

Whew ... thank you Rawkinlocs! I feel so much better now that I know I'm not competely out of the loop!

Wrecked Spark

11-08-2004, 02:42 PM

Olive I wanted to comment on something that you said ~

I feel very much the same way; personally I can't be bothered defending my point of view and explaining my personal (key here ~ personal) answer to all sorts of questions that feel silly to me, when it's clear the person wanting to do the debating has no intention of ever maintaining an open mind or teases a conversation simply to blast me with their opinion in a my-way-or-the-highway fashion. I am more than willing to have my opinion changed ~ isn't that the whole point of evolving and learning?! I'd just rather do it if I'm approached in a, "hey, have you ever thought of this...?" kind of way rather than a, "you're full of it!" kind of way. Because you know what?! Sometimes I am full of it!!! :D Just kidding.

Sometimes I keep my position private (at work or with certain casual friends or whatever) simply because I think it's easier to keep the peace and prevent people having to feel the need to defend their terribly unhealthy fast-food-eating, no-exercise lifestyles. I love them anyway. I don't agree with them, but I love them anyway. :)

That being said, I'm in an environment where I have found like-minded people so all of you won't mind my saying: Ditto Rawklinlocs! How could fruits and veggies ever be unhealthy when you take into consideration the average sad diet?!! It's like saying exercise doesn't work for you. Apart from recovering from an injury, exercise is good for everyone. Plain and simple. I'll be a little bull-headed on that one. :o :D

I do agree about the quick-fix solution though ~ however, whether people are dealing with weight issues or not, or have simply found this lifestyle for health, philosophy or ethical reasons doesn't really concern me. What concerns me is that people finally come to learn to trust their bodies, trust their intuition and trust that they're doing the best they can for themselves ~ whether that means 100% or not. I think Alissa is right on the money on that one. And for the record, I'm not 100%. Do you like me any less? Is my opinion worth less? Has your respect for me diminished because I'm taking my time with the process rather than fanatically diving in, then hitting a roadblock and declaring it not for me? Heck no ~ feels great at the moment, I'm loving the journey and I think I'm a valuable addition.

However, I digress; our experiences are ALL valuable ~ so let's support one another with what we've learned and what we've experienced. Let's leave the fanaticism, dogma and bull to some of those other sites!

I've really enjoyed reading everyone's point of view. Goodness me I love this board.

Cheers,
Wrecked Spark

racheljj

11-08-2004, 05:08 PM

Rawkinlocs said, "Rachel you said that even when she was high raw she felt sick...so it's not possible that the small amount of cooked food she was eating was doing it?"

Yes, obviously that is possible as you all have mentioned. I just mentioned another possibility: namely, that she COULD have gotten even more ill if she'd eaten 100% raw. We can't KNOW absolutely which statement is truer.

Rawkinlocs also asked, "Since when do natural, whole fruits and veggies make people sick? It just doesn't add up. It's not the FOOD making people sick...yeah, maybe it's poorly combined food or maybe it's too much dehydrated food or maybe it's just the body going through changes as it tries to eliminate garbage out of the system. But apples, oranges, greens, lettuce, all the foods that come from nature and are appropriate for our consumption won't make us sick. I just can't get with that. Even if someone eats cooked foods and incorporates a great deal of raw food into their diet, the raw foods can't be blamed for them being sick...sorry I just don't see it."

I wasn't saying that eating natural, organic raw foods like fruits is what made her sick. Maybe her body needs some nutrients that we just can't get from raw foods. There are many reasons and resources that show this, and many examples of people who have needed to get nutrients from other sources than just raw. I'm not saying that raw foods aren't good because they are. I'm just saying that not EVERY single person in this world SHOULD eat ALL raw because we all have different needs. And, FOR those people who need more than raw, I'm glad that Faith spoke up.

Rachel Johnson

Rachel

smasty

11-08-2004, 05:12 PM

Wow...I don't know how much more I can add to this. Great posts by a lot of people. The posts that stuck with me:

Alissa's on "being ready."

I would NEVER have considered raw a year ago....but it has truly deeply changed my life. For some reason my mind was open to it, and I know it's where I'm supposed to be. It's the easiest thing I've ever done in my life...I can't believe how I've struggled and struggled for 35 years with food, and all that is past me now.

Helen's on "why are you here." Helen...I agree with you. This is a place for people looking for knowledge, support, motivation and inspiration on going raw. I look forward to wonderful posts where there's answers to questions about "why do this?" "what are the benefits" "How to get through the rough spots".....but if a person has already decided that raw is not the way to go (or worse..that it's unhealthy)...then there's no need for debate, right? Leave us to our inspiration. I don't mean this to sound harsh...it's just that many of us have seen the light with raw. We've experienced renewed health, energy and stamina, and freedom from food addictions--and THAT's what we want to talk about.

Anything Rawkin writes inspires me! The "short term fix" catch in some posts that she wrote about is right on.

Rawkinlocs

11-08-2004, 07:18 PM

Hi Rachel,

Well, I hear what you're saying and I agree that not everyone can or will do all raw and again, that's fine. I have no problem with that. I'm not trying to judge Faith or anyone else for that matter...

But I digress - everyone has to do what they feel is right for them and raw is right for me. I wish Faith all the best in her health and wellness whatever she decides...I hope she finds her happy medium.

Cherie

Rawkinlocs said, "Rachel you said that even when she was high raw she felt sick...so it's not possible that the small amount of cooked food she was eating was doing it?"

Yes, obviously that is possible as you all have mentioned. I just mentioned another possibility: namely, that she COULD have gotten even more ill if she'd eaten 100% raw. We can't KNOW absolutely which statement is truer.

Rawkinlocs also asked, "Since when do natural, whole fruits and veggies make people sick? It just doesn't add up. It's not the FOOD making people sick...yeah, maybe it's poorly combined food or maybe it's too much dehydrated food or maybe it's just the body going through changes as it tries to eliminate garbage out of the system. But apples, oranges, greens, lettuce, all the foods that come from nature and are appropriate for our consumption won't make us sick. I just can't get with that. Even if someone eats cooked foods and incorporates a great deal of raw food into their diet, the raw foods can't be blamed for them being sick...sorry I just don't see it."

I wasn't saying that eating natural, organic raw foods like fruits is what made her sick. Maybe her body needs some nutrients that we just can't get from raw foods. There are many reasons and resources that show this, and many examples of people who have needed to get nutrients from other sources than just raw. I'm not saying that raw foods aren't good because they are. I'm just saying that not EVERY single person in this world SHOULD eat ALL raw because we all have different needs. And, FOR those people who need more than raw, I'm glad that Faith spoke up.

Rachel Johnson

Rachel

vegbaby

11-08-2004, 08:16 PM

Wow, where to start? First, there is something I learned this summer from Gabriel Cousens, which I'd like to share with all of you. If you haven't read his book Conscious Eating, I'll just tell you quickly that he gives some pretty detailed information about how to discover your own body's constitution and way of metabolizing food and how to eat raw to meet your own needs. He also has a book called Depression-Free for Life which is a very structured approach to eating which has been proven (in his scientific studies; he's an M.D.) to heal depression on many levels. He goes into great detail about the chemical make-up of the body and brain and how foods affect our behaviors and feelings. It's absolutely mind-blowing. So, yes, there is science out there to back up the raw diet.

When one goes to the Tree of Life in Arizona for healing from physical problems, the first thing GB does is an extensive work-up on your blood. From that he is able to tell many things, including what you should and should not eat as a raw foodist so that you can be healthy on the raw diet. Each of us is absolutely individual, and finding the raw diet that works for us is not always as easy as just following your intuition and "listening to your body," which is what I am always espousing. :) LOL!

That said, I also don't believe that being raw takes some sort of science degree or major testing and adherence to a strict way of eating. That, in fact, is what I believe causes more people to fail in this than actually feeling bad from eating raw. I'm in agreement with Alissa 100 percent on that topic. But for those people for whom raw isn't working for physical reasons, then I believe the next step should be getting some blood work done and talking to a health professional who is knowledgeable in raw diets. (Easier said than done, I know!)

In Faith's case, I don't think that was the real issue. If you read her journal and listened to the feelings behind her words, there was more emotion there than just disappointment with not meeting the physical healing expectations she hoped to achieve. She was struggling, as Wrecked says above, with emotional issues with food. Much of what she seemed to be saying was that it's just too hard to stay raw in this cooked world. I've felt that way at times, too, so I totally understand that. She vented those feelings in a very public way and experienced the backlash from raw foodists feeling protective of their way of life.

Now, I'm going to start a new thread about this getting-certain-nutrients-more-easily-from-cooked-veggies-than-raw topic, because I think this is something that we need to discuss in more detail - to calm our own minds, ease any doubts we may have, and learn what to say when people ask us this question. I've been asked about it more than once, and while I gave an answer similar to what Rawkinlocs said above, I kind of felt I was blowing hot air, so to speak, just to defend myself. I didn't really have the science to back up my answer, though I have no doubt the science is out there some where; I just haven't found it documented yet. So, let's go discuss THAT for awhile!

:)

Love you guys!

melanie

marigold

11-09-2004, 04:13 AM

some one asked me why i was here and smasty was the why are you here aimed at me *smile? - seemed a strange question to ask..i am here cos i eat most of my food raw. and over and over i keep saying yes i feel like this and i still believe in raw food and eat most of my food raw. i have had a lot of support from here finding out i am not the only one or sharing recipes..eating this way is different and i still like the support of being around others

i do support and have felt benefits of raw..enough for me to keep going..and yet i wont pander to the ra ra of it either..and i can see it gets many of you with your feathers up.!!!!

when i started to go raw it was very rose coloured and now it seems bit by bit many who have been raw for a long while are saying hang on..manybe this isnst right..here in uk the fresh network produced a whole mag bout it - suddently saying maybe all raw aint so good..at the time i was ALL raw..i felt cheated and let down..there i was having gone through all that and maybe i didnt have to have gone so far!! ggggggles.so its good i think to see a balance now..that people are talking rather than being all "oh raw is so great " - IT IS GREAT.- and there is more to it than that.and thats why i think faiths words were great..and many on here that wre willing to stand up on here and risk the wrath of others and say hang on maybe just maybe.

but for the record i will do a dance for you all..i love raw i love raw..i practice food combining i juice my wild greens i eat my greens i take udo and synagey i consult raw "experts" about what i eat...i love raw - i have no headaches no shits - no pms..

on the surface the coments that how can eating fruit and veg not be enough good enough seems a sound thing to say but thats not the full picture imo ? yes i AGREE that they are wonderful and how can it be worse to be raw than on sad..BUT the wider picure tells us more ..and we are all different..slow oxydisers fast..pitta vatta..etc ..so i dont feel we can be complacent and say raw for all and nothing can happen on raw..for eg cousens says we all need b12 supps. he also says a few a few people need meat !!!

Helen Of Tennessee

11-09-2004, 07:00 AM

Hi Marigold,

It was me :) not Smasty that asked why you were here (She just quoted what I asked). I had written I was sincerely wondering why you posted here, on an all raw board, and in your last post you let me know. Thanks :) So glad to hear that you do eat very high raw and that you do gleam some good info from this board. Have a great day.

<>< Helen of Tennessee

VeganWannaBe

11-09-2004, 07:02 AM

Whew ... I'm glad to see everyone so passionate about their beliefs.
However, being only on my 5th day raw I must ask this question: Should I be not so zealous in my endeaver to follow simple "good ole common sense" when it comes to my dietary choices? This is all so new to me, so yes coming from the inexperienced this may seem benign, but these last four days have truely transformed my life ... I dare say that at this point, more mentally than anything. I believe that any change one makes toward the positive is a change for the better. Let's just use our "common sense" (wow, I've said those 2 words twice already ...hmm?) for a minute .... I'll use a scenerio from Harvey Diamond on this one: if you had a baby laying in a crib and handed him both an apple & a rabbit, would he not try to eat the apple & play with the rabbit? Instinct tells us from birth that everything we need to strive is already given to us from the land and until introduced by the majority rule, cooking the life out of something isn't even a thought. OMG, how would our generations have survived back in lineage w/o our modern vices?!
Not having read Faith's post, I may be totally off course here, but as noted by many others ...what originally drew me to this site & forum is the ideaology that it & it's members offered support and insight to those of us who ARE wanting to go the raw food route. I want the most out of my life and if going raw is how I feel brings me the fullest life experience possible than, by God, I am there!
All this to say ... Rawkinlocs, Alissa, and those others who are like minded ... I have much respect for you & as I begin this transformation it is obvious that it will not only take discipline but also the strength to stand firm in my beliefs. Kudos!

marigold

11-09-2004, 08:26 AM

We've experienced renewed health, energy and stamina, and freedom from food addictions--and THAT's what we want to talk about. quote

i agreee it is good to talk about that but dont you think if we ONLY talk about that we are burying our heads in the sand ? i know i for one want to know if there are probs with raw...if its not working for all which its not..cos t hen we can talk and maybe avoid those probs ourself..we can share out fears and where we are at..

if this is a board where we can only chant how wonderful raw is then yes maybe i am in the wrong place- so far it feels that this is a place where you are welcome unless you dare to speak out that all is not well...
it feels so much like a cult or we are brainwashed unless we can move beyond this and get real about the good things and the not good things that are happening to people on raw

if one is questioning raw( which i am not) surely they are as welcome to use this site as anyone else.

Alissa

11-09-2004, 09:21 AM

Marigold,
I have to point something out. I, along with a lot of other people have said, 'of course you wont be kicked off the boards' and we have all said to you that you are welcome here and that its great everyone has their opinions. Even Helen who asked why you were here said that you answered that for her and she now understands, but you seem to keep bringing up the fact that you want to discuss why raw isnt working. I cant help but notice when i read your post that there is a defensiveness there and anger even though people are saying basically ' good for you for standing up for your believes'. And youre questioning again if people can only be on here if they are into the ra ra of raw foods. I dont think anyone on here is a fanatic about it and a lot of people here are still trying to find their way. So i dont know why you keep bringing that point up?
if this is a board where we can only chant how wonderful raw is then yes maybe i am in the wrong place- so far it feels that this is a place where you are welcome unless you dare to speak out that all is not well...
Do you really think this is true marigold? Because i just dont see this at all! And actually i think its even a bit insulting to the people here as i have read so many other boards where this may be true but it just seems to me over and over again that this board has some of the most caring understanding balanced people on it!
I also disagree with the fact that this is a place were you can only talk about the benefits. There have been many and continue to be many threads posted about things like ' do i need b12? Is this diet going to hurt me if i dont eat the right foods, how do i know this or that wont hurt me, i am struggling with raw, why cant i stay on it, etc...' But you have to understand marigold that this is a raw food board and if the positives raw food comments dont outweigh the bad then why would you come here??? Yes, we can question and look for the truth but there are always ways to discount the raw movement which you can find by the way on other sites such as Chet days. But no one wants to come here all the time and try to get inspired, find answers, and connect with people doing raw only to find this to be a board filled with the people who are doubting it. Not that thats not ok to doubt but this board really is here to inspire and educate about raw and to connect with other LIKE MINDED people. Its always good to have some debate marigold, and i for one appreciate what your input has been, but it gets tiring after a while to have to defend every point of why we think this diet is so great. We seem to get enough of that in our everyday lives. Its refreshing when we can come on here and connect with folks who are on our path and not have to once again explain or defend.
I hope you understand where im coming from on this? I think a little debate is fine, i dont think we all need to be on the exact same wavelength or so afraid to hurt each others feelings that we dont speak our minds, or at times yes, even, god forbid :rolleyes: question the raw food diet, but like someone else mentioned i wouldnt go onto a meat eating board and start preaching about raw foods, they dont want to hear it and thats not what they are there for. Would i go and share some raw recipes and make some points about the raw diet, sure! But if i went on there preaching everyday and confronting everyone it would get a little old for them and they would start wondering why i was there. I think thats the point some of us our trying to make.
Best,
Alissa

Wrecked Spark

11-09-2004, 09:28 AM

Hi Marigold,

I could be sticking my foot in my mouth here :o but I'm not sure anyone was expecting you to defend your food choices (although might I say... they're quite good! :D ) I think the ultimate goal (and thank so very much for starting this thread) was to open up the discussion ~ particularly between 100%'ers and non-100%'ers. I have been to other boards and quickly left simply for the fantacism and the :there's only way" viewpoint. I found that approach very alienating and closed-minded ~ but personally I'm one for open, respectful debate. It's a shame really, because there was probably some very informative and truthful information to be found there. I just don't take kindly to the "no-one but me is right" sort of approach.

if this is a board where we can only chant how wonderful raw is then yes maybe i am in the wrong place- so far it feels that this is a place where you are welcome unless you dare to speak out that all is not well...
it feels so much like a cult or we are brainwashed unless we can move beyond this and get real about the good things and the not good things that are happening to people on raw

I would like to respectfully disagree with you on your last point however. There are many of us here who are not 100% and not once have I seen anyone judge or condemn that person's viewpoint for not being "pure". This is not a lifestyle choice that has anything at all to do with brainwashing as you mentioned ~ at least, not on this board!!! And yes ~ I have visited others and felt the fantacism there. Rather than getting involved I simply realize that it isn't a place I feel comfortable, and so post here often. :D

This is a place to encourage, support, answer questions through personal experience and help one another. If it were brainwashing, wouldn't we all be trying to "convert" everyone to our point of view? I understand where you are coming from, of course, and I agree with you that it's helpful we speak about what's not working, what IS working, what we could try differently and what others have tried in the same situation so that we can all get to where we want to be, regardless of how different those places are from one another.

Humbly and respectfully,
Wrecked Spark

Rawkinlocs

11-09-2004, 09:30 AM

*This is gonna be long, but please read it and comment- all comments welcome!*

Marigold (are you tired of me yet? :) )

May I ask you a question? I recall from a post of yours that you said sometimes the mere thought of raw food made you feel like vomitting...that you don't really like raw food and there are only a few you like and you eat high raw or all raw for as long as you can stand it and then you'll want something different.

So my question is...is your own problem with raw related to health problems, feeling sick in the body, or just the fact that for some reason raw foods don't appeal to you? From your past posts, it seems the latter...that you plain and simple don't care for the taste of a LOT of raw foods (and not just recipes, but actual veggies and fruits).

From what I see, MOST people who struggle with raw struggle with it not because of feeling sick, but because they have some deep-seeded issues with eating and with food. I KNOW I have some food weaknesses, but rather than turn it into a "raw isn't all that" arguement, I simply deal with MY personal eating issues and in doing some deep soul searching, I can see my problem.

Now this is not to say it's the case with everyone, but I wouldn't doubt if it were with many.

Now with those who go raw and experience bodily discomforts...what do we attribute it to? I don't want to keep beating a dead horse here, but I will mention her name (hopefully) one last time in relation to this thread...Faith was what...high raw? So, she was eating a portion of cooked food, no? What were the cooked items she was eating? Was it things that she felt would supplement her diet and give her whatever nutrients she may have felt she were deficient in? Was it healthy cooked food? Or was it garbage cooked food like fast food or cookies and cakes or something to that effect?

Heck, I eat very high raw (almost all except when I slip up with some junk) and the ONLY time I feel sick is when I eat...the JUNK!

*sigh...I still am trying to get a straight answer about if a person is not all raw and they are feeling sick, WHAT portion of their diet is causing them to not feel well? The cooked portion or the raw portion? Maybe it isn't either...maybe, just maybe it IS actually detox going on and we all know that when the body cleans itself of excess toxins, there is sometimes some discomfort that goes along with it as the body tries to eliminate it.

Now, folks on a strictly cooked diet or the SAD get sick and feel bad and most times NEVER question what they're eating. They just chalk it up to having "caught something" from someone or if it's a degenerative disease, then it's something that was passed on to them through family lineage.

But start eating a cooked vegan diet or a raw vegan diet or a combo of the two and all of a sudden, I'm sick due to this way of eating and this lack of this or lack of that.

All of a sudden, we become so conscious of whether or not we're getting enough nutrients when while we were eating good ole bacon and eggs, biscuits and gravy, pizza and soda, burgers and fries, donuts and coffee, we were not once ever concerned with whether or not our bodies were getting proper nutrients. WE HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED! Brainwashed to believe that the ONLY way to have total health is to eat from the 4 food groups - Grains, Dairy, Meat, and last and for most CERTAINLY most least, fruits/veggies.

When a person drank alcohol all their lives or did drugs all their lives or worked in a toxic environment - sooner or later the body has to try and get rid of all those toxins and often times it is not pleasant. There will be some discomfort, there will be some pain, there will be some emotional issues dealing with it.

Day by day, over and over our bodies have endured us over eating...eating until our pants were about to bust open; it has endured us eating things that were highly processed and stripped of any nutrients (bleached flour/sugar,etc.) and then replaced (enriched) with so-called nutrients...all that abuse. But when we learn about healthier forms of eating and stop the abuse, we expect to recover from all that in a quiet, peaceful, like-it-never-happened manner.

I know not all of us here are Christians, but there is a saying we have based on a scripture - "you reap what you sow"...and I believe there are similar statements of that in other religions if I'm not mistaken.

If you so bad eating habits, your body will reap bad health. I'm not saying our bodies try to punish us...but when we exhaust our NORMAL elimination channels, then it's gonna get out of us in other ways (skin rashes, acne, boils etc.) and when the body begins to purge itself of toxins, sometimes it causes unpleasantries within (headaches, body aches, lethargy - which basically means our body WANTS us to rest so it can heal itself because the body heals during our sleep or resting)

Whew...well, I had to get all that out...sorry again for saying so much in one post! But this isn't about being cultish or anything like that. Not all of us here are 100% raw and that's never been a problem. But most of us that are not can attest to the fact that healthwise, we feel BETTER the more raw we eat and feel crappy when eating the other stuff. No, I don't think there is anything wrong with eating steamed veggies or baked potato or whatever. But I and many others choose to aspire to eat all raw (or mostly). I believe this group was started to help encourage people to try ALL raw for at LEAST 30-days and to provide support, guidance and encouragement to members as they go for it. There are MANY general raw discussion groups that battle wits about the pros and cons of raw and guess what happens, people get flamed and rudely spoken to, etc. People come here and comment on how pleasant the atmosphere is here and that's because we are all trying to work towards the same goal and helping one another get there.

There's nothing wrong with expressing concerns, but when someone who has been raw for a long time such as Alissa or others give advice such as to fast, or that it's detox, or that they need more greens, etc...then it's written off by skeptics as "Just more excuses and typical responses from the raw food movement"

In my honest opinion...I feel that the people who struggle the most, not with trying to eat raw and eliminate cravings, etc.; but those who battle with the IDEA of eating an all raw diet fall into one or more of the following categories:

1. Couldn't get a grip on their eating habits and decided instead of looking at themselves and their issues, decide to get defensive of their choice to eat what they want and make claims against raw foods diet

2. Were too strict with their diet too soon and felt deprived

3. Tried to do it to the letter the way someone else did it rather than listening to their OWN body and doing all raw and one cooked meal or whatever it takes and thus, ended up with problems

4. Just don't like to deal with any type of discomfort due to detox (or whatever one wants to suggest it is) and gives up because cooked food gave comfort and stopped the process of detox and they get mad and suggest it's not detox...can't be detox because it's been a few months or a year of being symptomatic, even though they ate barbaricly for years and years prior to making the change.

Okay, I'm shutting up for REAL this time!

(note: words in all caps are not me yelling, but emphazing and being too lazy to do the "bold" thingy!)

Wrecked Spark

11-09-2004, 10:08 AM

erm.... heh :o

I do believe that might cover the gamut!!!

Just kidding.

(Thought a little geeky humour might lighten the mood a little bit. :D )

The ideas presented here personify the entire reason why I feel so at home here ~ and you covered everything I may have thought have at any fleeting moment in one short note. (*wink)

I sure there is much more to say, but let me interject before a hundred other posts are up ~ I absolutely love your mind Rawkinlocs!

Cheers,
Wrecked Spark

VeganWannaBe

11-09-2004, 10:23 AM

Thank you Rawkinlocs *sigh of relief* ...
"Do thy duty, do thy best, and leave unto the Lord the rest!"

tglasco4

11-09-2004, 02:17 PM

Rawkinlocs,

For the record, whenever you want to get something off your chest ----PLEASE BRING IT ON!! I WANT TO HEAR IT!! That was beautiful!!

Peace.

Todd

sunshine14127

11-09-2004, 02:36 PM

I am also one of the (ex) journalers on the same site as Michelle, Todd, and Faith. Faith has gone through a lot dealing with the OVER ABUNDANCE of nasty emails from what I generally refer to as "the fringe". And although I DO know that MOST of the raw foodists are generally warm and wonderful people (such as Michelle and Todd), I just have gotten tired of all the controversy and negativity that seems to swirl around.
I did read EVERYONE'S comments here........and the FIRST thing that popped into my head was......DON'T YOU PEOPLE HAVE ANYTHING BETTER TO DISCUSS?! geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez!
Sorry Alissa, I didn't want to do it, but I HAD to. And yes, you PEOPLE can now discuss how badly I am doing at being a raw foodist...but you see, I personally don't care. This is MY journey, as was Faith's, who has been nothing but wonderful and supportive of me since the beginning.
And yes, I will continue on my Raw Food Journey, although I have now decided that I will not journal anymore.
Alissa - thank you for your inspiring book!
Jill

Wrecked Spark

11-09-2004, 02:41 PM

oh. Me thinks we've all been supportive of one another, no?!

And I was liking the conversation. :o I LOVE hearing everyone's point of view!

All the very best on your journey Sunshine!! :)

Cheers,
Wrecked Spark

tglasco4

11-09-2004, 02:44 PM

This thing seems to have taken on a life of its own....(whisper)Maybe we should kill it before it gets out of control? ;)

sunshine14127

11-09-2004, 02:47 PM

Sorry Todd!
I couldn't resist............
Gonna miss you!
:D Jill

Rawkinlocs

11-09-2004, 03:04 PM

Someone started this thread saying, (may not be verbatim) "Did anyone read Faith's post on fromsadtoraw...very thought provoking"

That left it WIIIIDE open for discussion and that's what we did. Now, I know Faith's name was brought up and that's only because she was the focus of the original topic.

Everyone expressed opinions about all the doubt, negativity, fear, and lack of success on a raw diet. No, not everyone will agree and that's fine. But I don't think anyone here was trying to attack Faith or anyone else...just simply trying to make heads or tails of it. I mean, I DID read her final journal entry and you can ask Todd, I PM'd him because I began to feel slightly troubled and being who Todd is, he gently "slapped" me back to my senses. But that last entry was a DOOZY for someone who is trying to make this whole raw thing work and so it was discussed, I see no harm in it.

No one is suggesting Faith was a "bad raw foodist" and no one would ever say such things about you. As I said before, many of us still struggle, aren't 100% but we're trying to find our way and what works for us.

But I digress...I just don't want you to feel that we're bad PEOPLE (your caps, not mine) simply because we are discussing something someone wrote in a public-viewing journal.

I'm very sorry you feel the way that you do.

Todd I agree, maybe this topic needs to be killed and buried!

sunshine14127

11-09-2004, 03:15 PM

I am sorry that you interpreted that any one HERE was a bad person. I meant that the ones that wrote to Faith were. I have known her for months, and she is truly a wonderful person, and she doesn't deserve any of the negativity that came rushing at her.
Sorry if you misinterpreted what I had said.
This is the only site I still frequent (except for FROMSADTORAW) as it does not have the negativity that I see on the other sites.

Steve

11-09-2004, 07:23 PM

Curtis

11-09-2004, 10:56 PM

Hmm I fail to see Steve how reading books on eating raw and living food will give me a warped view of food? :) To me a warped view of food is saying meat, dairy and cooked food is good for you.

vegbaby

11-10-2004, 02:46 AM

I have followed Faith's journal for some time, and I think many of you missed her major point. You are all arguing about whether a raw diet is nutritious enough to support health, but Faith was trying to make a point about the PSYCHOLOGY of the diet, and her point was that if you read enough raw books (and spend enough time on raw food forums) you will end up with a warped view of food. This was illustrated with great wit in her Oct. 31 entry titled "Once upon a time I was a normal person." It seems this bright young woman started out her journey thinking she was embarking upon a healthy way of life, and discovered that the diet promotes fear (of cooked food), food obsession (disguised as "discipline"), and control (the illusion that one can control one's life, health, aging.). She began to lampoon some of the ridiculous claims of the diet, and in turn people felt the need to invalidate her ideas and experience. I trust one day she will have a good chuckle about all of this (if she is not having one right now).
~Steve
Actually, Steve, back on page 2, I did comment that this was clearly a psychological issue for Faith. I also said in an earlier post that I was glad she was working toward finding a new way to feel good about her food again. To say that the raw diet promotes fear, obsession, and unhealthy control issues is really fallacious. We might as well say that working to adhere strictly to any particular way of eating - whether it be the Zone diet, the Atkins diet, the vegetarian diet, the vegan diet, or whatever - promotes fear, obsession, and control issues, when in fact, it is a person's own state of mind which leads them to these feelings.

Steve, it seems to me that you may have joined this board simply to come over here and post one negative message, interrupting what I believe was a constructive conversation. Let me reiterate before I go that I, nor anyone else here (I believe), meant to belittle Faith in any way, but rather to discuss the issues she brought up in her public journal. Perhaps we should have stuck to the issues on a more general level rather than speculating about her and what she was/is feeling.

marigold

11-10-2004, 03:45 AM

Rawkinlocs

11-10-2004, 04:42 AM

wow !!! what a tidal wave !!i read this when i got in last night and then the nights mails this morning and the ones overnight well - i dont feel so alone anymore as i did last night!!

i was shocked by the avalanch that came my way - i guess that is what happens when you start to speak out agains the crowd..you know what i am saying is so simple..i am a raw eater...i eat most of my food raw and i am just saying lets be open that there may be probs and it doesnt work for all..lets just be open...you know there are many "famous" raw fooders now saying this too.

i feel very upset by the mails directed at me..i feel you think i am this angry hostile derfensive person which i am so not..maybe i just never fitted in here..many times i have opened my soul to you and no one said a word..i guess i shouldnt care but i do.

i am grateful for the support i have had off circle..those that read this and said - wow they are so defensive not you..those that said how brave i was to speak out ...so thankyou to those of you.

love marigold
namaste

i was awake in the night thinking of this and i wonder if some of it is a culteral thing. ..heck even the uk raw network did a whole magazine on the fact all raw might not be the way to go..from uk rawers it seems much more accepted to talk about this while still acknowleding that raw is great too...

Marigold,

I'm going to say this and then I am done with this thread because it's just going in circles.

I can pull up posts of yours where you received TONS of support here from members (myself included) when you were saying how much of a struggle it is for you to like raw, when you went off of raw for a minute, etc.

So please don't suggest that everyone is ganging up on you because that's not the case. Since your last post before this most recent one, only 3 replies were directed to your statements in that post. You feel you can speak your mind, but no one can address what you said? Come on now Marigold.

No one attacked you, only made comments regarding your comments. Only the first two paragraphs of my loooong post were directed to you...the rest was general...VERY general.

No one is saying you don't have a right to question raw and find out if people are having problems, etc. because we all know it's a struggle to go from one extreme to the another. This is new and different to all of us. Allow me to quote myself from my previous post:

There's nothing wrong with expressing concerns, but when someone who has been raw for a long time such as Alissa or others give advice such as to fast, or that it's detox, or that they need more greens, etc...then it's written off by skeptics as "Just more excuses and typical responses from the raw food movement"

Someone emailed you and said we're being so defensive. Well, this is what I don't get: You can speak out and express yourself, but when we speak our opinions or feelings on these issues, we're being defensive and fanatical...hmmmm...okay. It's okay to all but call those who believe that a (100%) raw diet is good, fanatical zealots....it's okay to insinuate that we're acting like a brainwashed cult...but as soon as anyone begins defending themselves from such statements, then we're wrong??

Yes, you have every right to speak your mind, and others have every right to speak theirs - plain and simple...it's a two-way street when it comes to opinions and views.

I'm going to leave this topic alone because it's getting frustrating and it's beginning to become unfruitful.

tglasco4

11-10-2004, 07:50 AM

A word to the wise------------

NO COMMENT!!!! :cool:

Rawkinlocs

11-11-2004, 07:30 PM

And you, Steve, must have spent hours here reading all of these "comical" posts in order to have come to that conclusion...what was your point again?

loveraw

11-12-2004, 05:34 AM

I am not sure that anyone is interested in any more opinions on this, since I think it has been pretty much run to the gound, but I have something I would like to say. I have been reading Faiths post by the way. I liked her wit, but to me she was not a rawfoodist, she did not like the ism of it and she definitely expressed it many times. I do not like the ism of things but I try to not let that come in between what I am trying to do and the goal of accomplishing it. But I am having very hard time doing it, because most of the time I hear how hard it is and the people that are actually accomplishing it are quietly in the backround, I guess just hanging in there feeling good. I really need to know this works. That would be a great support to me. I really liked Alissa's post way back when she said that it does work when you stick to it. But that is the problem isn't it? The other thing I found a lot by reading others posts is when we get off of raw we don't just have some nice home cooked meal, but a real junk like McD or candy. That would make anyone crappy and sick. So lets say you eat part raw and crap. And you can still call yourself a rawfoodist, but a misserable one. So I think lot of it comes to our FOOD CHOICES. Like someones grandmom, sorry I can't remember her name, cooked her own food from scrach and lived to be over 100. My dad did that and lived only to 75. But his food did not come from the garden, most of the time not even from the produce section. Well all I have to say is I have a lot of cleaning up to do.

Sweet lips

11-12-2004, 08:18 AM

Faith is doing well, and actually if you read her last entry, she left us with humor, which is her forte. I was sadden by the attack, but just has been written, she made her choice to move on and to be the best Faith she can be with the diet that it suited to her.

As we journey, lets remember Faith as we find oursleves in situations where 1. we want to tell other what's best for them, even when we can see that they may eating or living in a manner that is evident that it can be destroying their health ie: smoking with an oxygen tank, frying food and having diabetes and just came home with a heart attack. We can only suggest not demand, but it would be better if we followed #2

2. A picture is heard far better than words - look like the epitome of health, radiate love, have a sparkle in your eye and let your presence be your witness because it is calm, peaceful and beautiful

3. However, you speak to your higher power, I pray, do that, and the universe will open up and make a way for the information, just as it did for each of us. I don't beleive it is my coincidence that we are all here, be it 100% raw, or 1% raw - we were looking for a better way on our road to whole living.

With those three points, I guarantee people will always ask you what you are doing and we never have to make people feel as Faith said she felt. I believe that we have all had someone what to tell us about ourselves, what we were doing wrong, how we need to think, etc and we didn't like it too much. The person will normally listen to and followed their advice, was the one whose picture we watched first. Any thoughts are welcomed :)

VeganWannaBe

11-12-2004, 08:23 AM

Hello Sweet lips ....
"2. A picture is heard far better than words - look like the epitome of health, radiate love, have a sparkle in your eye and let your presence be your witness because it is calm, peaceful and beautiful" ....
I love that! Thank you ~

Steve

11-20-2004, 06:14 PM

I have quite a few books written by raw experts on my bookshelf, and the diets they propose in their books (written during their early years of raw when they experienced great success with the diet), are not the diets they are now following. For instance, Frederic Patenaude was a leader in the raw movement (he published a raw magazine and books) and after years of being 100% raw, he was tired of feeling listless and tired, and he now includes cooked vegetables, beans, animal products, etc. in his diet. He openly and admirably writes about the truth of his experiences on his website, despite the fact that he has received alot of flak for his honesty.

I also have books on my shelf by raw experts such as David Wolfe and Shazzie. Their initial diets were fruits, veggies, nuts, etc. But now years later, if you look at their websites you will see that they are heavily supplementing their diets with superfoods and supplements (and selling supplements as well). This would suggest that the raw food diet is not adequate as a long-term diet, and there is much literature that would support this.

As for Faith, prior to going raw, I know from corresponding with her that she was not following a SAD diet prior to raw, but an Ayurvedic vegetarian diet with no problems (she was married to an acupuncturist). She experienced good health the first year of going raw, and a sudden sharp decline in the second year. Subsequent blood work showed many deficiences, which have been corrected by a qualified health practitioner. Her decline was not due to detox but deficiencies.

Those who were critical of her, should remember that "pride goeth before a fall."

I write this in the hope that others will keep an open mind and always make wise and well-informed decisions regarding their health. Peace.

SwishTN

11-20-2004, 08:05 PM

Wow!!!

I had a whole lot that I had written, and I just deleted it.

We know in part...... We live in part.....

We are all a work in process....

That's it. Not really, but everything else just seems to add to the cycle of circles, and probably could start a whole nother string of frustration....

Blessings.
Lauri

Gosia

11-20-2004, 08:11 PM

I would like to dispute some of the statements that you made.

First of all, the fact that some long-term raw foodists heavily supplement their diet with un-raw stuff, does not mean that "the raw food diet is not adequate as a long-term diet". It only proves that even those long-term raw foodists are not immune to making mistakes, and certainly cannot be considered "experts" (even though they might advertise themselves us such on their websites etc). I would definitely not go to learn about raw foods from people like these.

Undisputably, there are long-term raw (and vegan) foodists whoes health is glowing and who DO NOT use any supplements whatsoever. This proves that it is possible to be raw and succeed in long-term. These are the guys/gals that is worth learning from.

By the way, simply being raw will not guarantee you a perfect health. For example, eating only carrots all the time is not the perfect diet, even though it is a raw diet, obviously. Clearly, there is more to learn than just "eat your foods raw".

Finally, the diet is only one of the components of health. To me, isolating one factor does not make sense.

Melissa

11-20-2004, 08:54 PM

I think that part of the reason feelings run high on this topic is that many of us feel we are breaking very real addictions when we stop eating cooked foods. Yet society generally doesn't recognize these addictions or acknowledge our courage and strength in breaking free of them. Instead they doubt our sanity and nutritional soundness while they down their coffees, donuts, burgers, etc. Imagine an alcoholic trying to quit when everyone around her, all the tv commercials, all the restaurants, push alcohol as an essential food group! I know that, for me, breaking the grip of sugar, dairy, and refined flour in my life has been a huge hurdle --a hurdle I knew I desperately needed to jump if I wanted to ever be well (I've struggled with painful fibromyalgia for 20 years, since college. I'm 39 now. That's a lot of years of pain, tears, medical tests, M.S. scares, etc.) I think we feel so needy of the recognition, acceptance and encouragement we get on this board -- not because we're cult members or obsessed or food fascists but because it's both difficult and liberating to escape an addiction.

I won't tell my whole story here, except to say that I was poisoning myself all those years and eating raw makes me feel better. It's not magic...Eating a diet high in living antioxidants and enzymes is good for us, but especially if we're ill and can't continue pretending we can eat the way most Americans do. Can people be healthy and eat some good-quality cooked food? Sure, some can. In a few years, when I've gone through a lot more healing and transformation, will I ever want to add some cooked food into my diet? (I'm eating all raw now) Who knows? I'll cross that bridge then, using my intuition about what I need. But I couldn't break this addiction while eating "just a little" cooked food. (I tried eating raw breakfast and lunch and a cooked dinner for awhile and didn't see the same progress.)

I like what someone wrote about not preaching, just share your journey, the ups and downs, and you'll be a living example. 100% raw is unrealistic to expect of many people (including ourselves at times) but if we can inspire others to even have a piece of fruit for a snack, get away from soda, or eat one raw meal a day, that's huge.

I'll end by saying that I'm rooting for everyone on this board to move towards whatever goals they've set. I'm cheering you on to do what makes you feel healthy and lets you live life to the fullest. I'm NOT concerned with what percentage of raw you've done or whether you've failed or "fallen from grace" ...There's no hierarchy of raw saints and sinners here, just people trying to become more conscious of food choices and work on health and weight goals. Peace and love to all of us.