liver flush...possible post flush side effects?

[streetsurfer]

I did the liver flush/cleanse a couple months back. I did the typical one with grapefruit juice, apple juice, olive oil, and epsom salts. Somewhat like Lan, but not to near the severity he suffered, it made me pretty ill for a couple days. I think that is because like Lan, I suffer intestinal permeability, gluten intolerance/celiac disease, and many food sensitivities, and am now realizing I most likely have adrenal insufficiency. There is also a chance I had exposure to one of the hepatitis strains several years back when a family member was exposed to it while doing contract brick work at a sewage treatment plant. I did not get ill like the other family members did at the time.
I'll also note I have never been a big drinker, nor a drug user.

This brings me to my question. Have any of you who performed the liver flush/cleanse experienced repeated outbreaks on the skin directly over the liver area afterwords? I have had a few outbreaks there since the flush. This is just below my right breast, about two ribs down from the definition of the bottom of the pectoral muscle. The first outbreak was about 8 or so small eruptions that itched slightly and cleared up after a few days. I had evidently scratched them open in my sleep because of the itching. They have returned a few times since, at about 2-3 week intervals. I'd not had these small "pimples" prior to the flush. The first episode I dismissed because the night prior, I'd leaned over a stack of roofing shingles (asphalt shingles and itching ribs, there's some humor in there I guess) at the home center and thought I may have scratched the skin and introduced some asphalt residue to the scratches. I saw no black or discoloration though. I tend to want to discount the asphalt thing though, as I've worked around it (paving) for thirty years and never had a problem with it prior. No other negative symptoms followed (that I could definitely attribute to the flush), other than the week following the flush where it seemed I had to re-establish my intestinal flora to get things back in balance. I have continually had problems with my flora, believed to be due to no longer having an appendix (thank you Doc....not). It was some years later that I learned an abcessed appendix could be cured naturally. I am confident I could have recovered from it, but they pumped me full of barium to x-ray me and it burst while I was on the table. Of course they would not admit to that, but I felt it happen, and was immediately rushed to surgery.
The area began itching again today and I wanted to inquire to see if this could be expected as part of the liver detoxing. Thank you for your replies.
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In the hopes that anyone reading this might also be helped, just as Alissa through this site has helped me, and posts from Lan and many of the other members here have helped me, and to clarify some things, I am taking advantage of the wonderful extended edit feature. If it were not for this wonderful site I would not have been able to clear my head enough to put the pieces of the puzzle together. It was when I switched to raw eating that a lot of my mental capacity was restored first and foremost, and then bits and pieces of my health improved at a rapid pace, allowing me to see my way out of a very bleak situation. Up to the point of finding RawFoodTalk.com I was degenerating faster than I could recover or repair my body.

Where I said above...."I did the typical one with grapefruit juice, apple juice, and epsom salts.", I have added the olive oil that I forgot to mention. Most folks probably know it was part of the procedure.
Where I said above...."No other negative symptoms followed (that I could definitely attribute to the flush), other than..." I also added..."believed to be due to no longer having an appendix (thank you Doc....not). It was not until some years later that I learned an absessed appendix could be healed naturally. I am confident I could have recovered from it, but they pumped me full of barium to x-ray me and it burst while I was on the table. Of course they would not admit to that, but I felt it happen, and was immediately prepped and rushed to surgery."

[lovenlife]

I would say YES it could be the liver detox thru the skin (biggest organ of waste disposal) or it very well could be , now that you have cleaned up your body, you are no longer able to be around asphalt and leaning over it created this rash.
Either way, I would welcome it as a healing crisis and it wil l go along when it is ready to be gone.
Liver cleansing is really helpful to assist the body in cleansing!!!

[VeGenesis]

There is also a chance I had exposure to one of the hepatitis strains several years back when a family member was exposed to it while doing contract brick work at a sewage treatment plant. I did not get ill like the other family members did at the time.

I'll also note I have never been a big drinker, nor a drug user.

First go get a HEP panel and find out! Some people think Hep is about being promiscuous, a big drinker, or a drug user - so they don't get the test! Hey, Hep A, Hep B and Hep C are all contracted by small babies who never even had a thought along those lines!

Then you will KNOW if your have an active case of Hep or if your body has defeated it or if you never got it. I don't know about where you are at, but here you don't even need to go to a doctor. You can go directly to a lab, pay a small fee, they will draw a blood sample and pick up your results.

Hep usually resolves by itself, but there are a number of natural treatments for all three kinds.

In the chronic types, treatments get a little more ify, but in our free clinic I have seen people who were able to resolve even long term Chronic Hep-B and Hep-C, which many doctors feel is incurable. The faster you know what your condition is, the better you will be able to take action.

[VeGenesis]

I did the liver flush/cleanse a couple months back. I did the typical one with grapefruit juice, apple juice, and epsom salts. Somewhat like Lan, but not to near the severity he suffered, it made me pretty ill for a couple days. I think that is because like Lan, I suffer intestinal permeability, gluten intolerance/celiac disease, and many food sensitivities, and am now realizing I most likely have adrenal insufficiency.

Talks with my raw friendly doctor (85-90% raw vegan doc) yielded this illustration. Imagine if someone took an IV bottle of olive oil and inserted it into your arm. What would happen? This is the double whammy of Celiac / intestinal permeability. Our blood gets loaded with oil in a different way. Diabetes and people with cardiovascular disease have a similar but slightly different problem. Kidneys and even the liver of people with these diseases do not like raw oil floating around in your blood.

"Intestinal Permeability" AKA: "Leaky Gut Syndrome" literally means that some particles of undigested food are passed into the bloodstream. Oil and some proteins in grains are the first to pass. This is why diabetes (oil) and allergies to corn, oats (and other grains), milk, and eggs (all with proteins but no gluten) are often (as much as 20-40%) accompanied with Celiac Disease.

However, even "normal people" (whatever that means) get an oil loaded blood when doing a detox flush of this type with 1/2 to 1 cup of oil. The flush will not work without the blood oil load!

I am trying to edit this to use "flush" or "detox flush" in reference to the high-fat liver flush. As opposed to the RAW Vegan "Cleanse" involving a daily "cleanse" with no oil, tart apples (I use granny smith), sweet apples (you need twice as many) and a couple good sized carrots daily!

Many people (some estimate 40-50%) rebound with a prolonged candida bloom after a high-fat liver flush. Some people do not even know what that is! Your rash may be a result of a prolonged candida bloom (overgrowth) actually caused by the oil in your liver cleanse!

I have consulted with three "raw friendly" doctors at teaching institutions, as well as a few doing "raw friendly" medical researchers, who ALL have come to the conclusion that persons suffering with Celiac Disease, Crohn's Disease, Diabetes, Kidney Disease, Cardiovascular Disease, Irritable Bowel Disease, Candida, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Gastro Intestinal Inflammation, Hepatitis-A, Hepatitis-B, and Hepatitis-C should NOT do an oil based liver cleanse.

The SAD part is that this kind of harsh oil based liver cleanse is totally unnecessary! Many people will talk about the "benefit" of a liver cleanse. But consider this...

Say a man ate 3-4 roast beef sandwiches daily for breakfast, a couple Pizza Hut pizzas for lunch ("extra meat toppings and double extra cheese please"), and four quarter-pounders with cheese up-sized meals at McDonald's for dinner... you would expect him to have health issues, right? (If you don't think a man could do this - that was my diet before - except I forgot to add the snacks and desserts and half gallon of ice cream!

If that man switched from that diet to a cooked, no sugar / lower fat version (believe me, there are lower fat / no sugar versions of these) wouldn't you expect him to tell you about the "benefit" of no sugar / lower fat diet?

Then if he switched to a lacto-vegetarian version (veggie roast beef, veggie and cheese pizza, veggie-burgers!) he could tell you about the "benefit" of lacto-vegetarian!

Then switched to vegetarian or cooked vegan or "pure vegan" (pure vegan seems so strange because most people use this term to talk about un-pure cooked food!) He could then tell you about the "benefit" of vegan!

Then there is high-fat raw (which Alissa emphatically does not recommend!). But some people seem to really twist Alissa's diet into a high fat raw and claim "benefits" of eating even 60% of calories from fat! (They really miss Alissa's point!)

The oil liver flush (should be called the high-fat liver flush as by any definition it is high fat). Once again there are people spreading the word that the high-fat liver flush is a "benefit" to them! Some even brag about how much they flush or detox flush their liver and gallbladder! Even a number of times a year!

I think most people are missing a very MAJOR point in Alissa's work...

LISTEN TO YOUR BODY!

If you need to do a high-fat liver / gallbladder flush every month or twice a year or once a decade, isn't that your body telling you to adjust what you normally eat? (So you won't Retox!) Our liver is designed to flush itself every day of your life. It doesn't because we do not eat what we should.

Many people go through life without gallstones - this is the NORMAL condition for the MAJORITY of the people. Those that have gallstones or kidney stones can be traced directly to there diet! Sure genetics play a part - but lifestyle is the major factor!

Those on 811rv (or 811lfrv if you prefer) do not need to do liver flushes because that system is liver friendly. Should we all switch to 811? Absolutely NOT! If you really follow Alissa's diet and you really listen to your body, you can have all 811 benefits just "Living On Live Food!"

Listen to your body!

Frankly, most 811rv people don't seem to be 811rv! They tend to tout the "benefit" of durian, jackfruit, coconuts, breadfruit, and other fruit with high fat (but just shun the "evil" avocados and olives!) and they usually consume some nuts and seeds that takes them over the China Study limit of 5-6% calories from fat. Often even over the higher 10% limit of 811rv.

On the other hand, lower fat has a real benefit for people with the above conditions (diseases). If you are really listening to your body, you will know if you are eating too much fat! You will need to detox! If you have kidney stones, gall stones, lose bowels, guess what - listen to your body!

A slightly modified version of my personal RAW118 diet, which we have renamed the "RAW118 Cleanse" is a detox, cleanse system that gives you an total health boost! We tried it on a small group, now we are trying it on a larger group.

The purpose of RAW118 Cleanse is to bring your body into balance - not throw it out! The harsh high-fat liver flush really can cause a lot of problems. Like medicine, it tries to cure one problem by causing a problem in another area. Hey, that sounds like chemo! Kill the cancer and don't worry about the immune system! Or remove the gallbladder and gall stones because you don't really need it!

How about "dump a bunch of oil into your system to flush your liver and do not worry about your kidneys, pancreases, blood, heart and digestive tract!

Sure, most high-fat oil based liver flush problems are just "temporary", a little discomfort, for basically healthy people - just the same as antibiotics and all the other over the counter drugs that most people would be better without!

For those that believe our body and nature have a design, every hear of a cave man going down to an oil river and dipping his coconut shell in so he could drink a have cup of oil for a liver flush? Sorta doesn't make common sense! Oil is processed! We do not "need" processed food!

streetsurfer - I also had rashes. Considering my breathing and angina, rashes seemed to be a small thing.

I would highly suggest that you try low fat / whole fuel for 118 days, that is what RAW118 is all about.

I know that it is a little hard to get your head around it, but the more I research it, the more I believe it is the ultimate cleanse with very low detox symptoms. The down side is 118 days!

The funny thing is that the RAW118 Cleanse actually falls in line with a number of different diets, Alissa's Living on Live Food is one, Dr. Graham's 811, Hallelujah Acres Foundation (some cooked food), and even Renegade Health (some cooked food and even some meat!). I'd recommend Alissa's diet and if you have any of the conditions above, or if you are into sports, you will want to stay lower fat.

Can you live on RAW118 - yes! I personally want optimum health! If only eating sawdust would make me as good as I can get - that is what I would do! Living RAW118 year round gives me a year round cleanse!

Am I anti gourmet food? No, I think it is great! I really hope someone will donate Living on Live Food to the Philippine Raw Library so I can try all the recipes that fall within our budget and lifestyle (we don't have a budget for a juicer or dehydrator or imported nuts!).

We plan to translate some of this and use it in our "eating without heating" health classes!

Although I truly believe a 100% Raw Vegan Diet is the best way, I still see people struggling with this. People with issues like the conditions above, that are mainly a result of their former lifestyle.

People who understand where they want to be, and are transiting there and need a way to deal with cravings and detox. Honestly I do not like the idea of a flush or unnatural detox as these can and do aggravate conditions in some people. 1-3% of people who do the high-fat liver flush must be rushed to a hospital!

Look how many people go on green smoothie fasts (feasts?) for long periods of time. This is one way of doing the RAW118 118 day Cleanse!

So far, ALL the people who have done the RAW118 Cleanse have lost their SAD cravings! To me that is amazing! It makes it easy to go on Living On Live Food!

[streetsurfer]

I am editing this becasue I see that as I was typing, you wrote a very thorough post to help me. Thank you and I will go through it in the morning. Since reading your past experiences I have cut baack on the oils and feel that is what is helping me also. I will post back tomorrow after I read your second post. Thank you so much for taking your time to help me with this, I am most grateful and am praying for you, my brother. God bless and good night.

Here's what I started with before the edit....love the edit feature here btw;

Hi Lan, and thanks for the reply. I mentioned the drink and drugs to show I didn't think my liver was in bad shape from those alone, not so much meaning the hepatitis. I've asked since I posted this and it was hep A that they all had. It wasn't the stigma that kept me from testing at the time. I was in touch with my doc's office and we talked about it. They didn't feel I needed to be tested as I didn't show any sign of being sick, no symptoms. I maybe should have tested though. There was also a vaccine fresh out at the time, but it was reported they had a bad batch that was actually giving people hepatitis, so at their suggestion even, I shied away from it for obvious reasons. They suggested that I may have already been exposed at a young age without getting very ill, become immune, and thus did not get sick from this exposure.
About ten years after this episode with the family, which was 5 years ago, I'd had blood drawn and tested pretty extensively. I was then told all my major organs were fine, and they discovered the leaky gut and food sensitivities. I will check my records to see if they did a hep panel. I believe they did and all was negative, but I was pretty ill from those other things and my recollection of the period is not that great. I will follow up on it because of your urging.

Lately I had learned that just the stomach issues I was dealing with could have really taxed the liver (I think I have this right) by the improperly digested carbs being converted into alcohol in abundance. Maybe it's carbs to sugars to alcohols, I forget. Anyway, the poor digestion is why I wanted to cleanse the liver. I don't think I saw stones but possibly did pass some parasites. I also did parasite cleansing. I had been drinking a lot of apple juice for months prior though. I have been recovering much faster since coming here and finding all sorts of helpful things to do and believe it is the raw eating that is allowing the leaky gut to heal up. I am so grateful also for all you have shared here, Lan. Your wealth of knowledge and wisdom has been most helpful. Thank you.

Loven life, thank you also for your reply. I am pretty sure it is detox too. My knees also broke out in the first month of going raw. I had never had that happen before either. It was all around my kneecaps. I first wondered if it was from the prolotherapy injections I had done for stabilizing the knee during a torn meniscus injury five years ago. Then the other uninjured knee did the same thing.
That too could have been parasites, as I had operated a lawn service and spent some time on my knees weeding beds, near a dog run once. It looked like I had just had the prolo treatments again with 40 or more injections to each knee...hehe. They have cleared up and not done it again. I do believe it is a healing crisis going on, which has been a long awaited for, and is very welcome.

I owe a lot of gratitude to this forum. Without it I would still be battling the many issues that I was for several years. I am so Happy to be feeling better. Thanks to all here for their contributions.

[VeGenesis]

I did the liver flush/cleanse

intestinal permeability, gluten intolerance/celiac disease, and many food sensitivities, and am now realizing I most likely have adrenal insufficiency.

No other negative symptoms followed, other than the week following the flush where it seemed I had to re-establish my intestinal flora to get things back in balance.

I suggest you try 118 days of Raw low fat whole fuel (fuel for your body!) to reset your system.

The RAW118 Cleanse will cleanse all major organs! If you have a current problem, you may need to stay here longer than 118 days! But it does work!


Without harsh high-fat oils!

Add daily Tibicos and your whole digestive system will be healing!

If you had a candida problem for 25 years - you can kiss it goodbye!

Watch your doctor be amazed how your condition is improving!

If you have Kidney Stones, try to drink one coconut water per day to get rid of them!
Without harsh high-fat oils!

Add daily Tibicos and your whole digestive system will be healing!

If you had a candida problem for 25 years - you can kiss it goodbye!

Watch your doctor be amazed how your condition is improving!

If you have Kidney Stones, try to drink one coconut water per day to get rid of them!

RAW118 Cleanse

For 118 days...

Lots of greens (I use 500grams - Green Smoothie Feasting!)
A young coconut water 3 days or more per week! (Daily is better!)
Use Sparingly, the high fat fruits.
No Oil
No Grain, beans, seeds, nuts/ They are all the reproductive parts of plants - they are also higher in fat and starch. Stay away for the 118 days.
No Juice - except citrus with the pulp. (Blend any whole foods you want - Green Smoothies are really great!
No Salt


The low fat for 118 days will help your heal much faster!

I would also suggest you try Tibicos (water kefir). It is amazing for people with Celiac or Leak Gut.


Tibicos (Water Kefir)

People who do not wish to consume dairy or have a vegan type diet may find that water kefir provides the living pro-biotics without the need for dairy or cooked tea cultured products, like kombucha. The finished product, if sealed in a bottled, will produce a carbonated beverage, it provides an alternative to sweet soda drinks for children and adults. It can be made all Raw for those on a raw food diet!

I had all kinds of bowel problems. The runs was cured in just a few days of drinking my first Tibicos. My wife grows about 1 cup of extra grains a day - that I consume. They help implant into your digestive track and provide all kinds of wonderful benefits!

My wife makes this using Muscovado for her and the kids. Because Muscovado is hard to make at lower temps (we only know of one place) what you buy will likely be above 120 degree processed. However, the kefir consumes this, we consume what the kefir makes. She adds a slice of lemon or calamanci (lemonsito).


Muscovado is whole, unrefined, noncentrifugal cane sugar. Rather than a centrifuge process, the sugar syrup is low-temperature dehydrated. The sugar is not separated from the molasses stream, which helps it retain most of its essential nutrients, vitamins, and minerals. Its unique processing gives it a deep rich flavor from the molasses (less so for the light Muscovado).

Dark Muscovado is a dark brown color; light Muscovado is a light brown color. It is commonly used in Latin America and Southeast Asia. Muscovado (from the Spanish mascabado, meaning unrefined) in South Asia is also known as gur, jaggery, and khandsari. In Latin America, it is known as rapadura, pamela, or piloncillo. In Colombia, it is called chancaca. By whatever name you may know it, this product is unrefined, noncentrifugal cane sugar with a high molasses (mineral) content. It comes in light and dark. Do not mistake it for brown sugar - brown sugar is refined white sugar with molasses added to it.

The island of Negros, where I lived for 11 years (next island to where I live now) is one of the worlds largest producers of Muscovado! But today, many heat it, rather than just low temp evaporate it - so check your supplier!

I make mine the say way with the same starter grains as hers but I use young coconut water.

Some people use honey.

I have heard you can use raw sugar cane juice also.

Most people make it with white or brown sugar, unsulphured molasses, hard water (or add 1/8 teaspoon baking Soda), a lemon slice and the grains.

I personally use coconut water.

[VeGenesis]

it was hep A

Being Hep-A and not noticing anything in 5 years I would just forget it! Hep-A usually goes away on its own. If you have a lot of symptoms, Hep-A can quickly be resolved with Vitamins C (IV 200-250 grams + about 20-50 grams by mouth!) and a few large doses of A & D by month!

But if you have no symptoms in 5 years and you know it was hep-A, just forget it. Either you had it when you were younger or it missed you!

Adult Immunizations are another issue that I stay out of. Child immunizations I hope parents will really check it out and don't trust your doctor. Especially on the shots linked to Autism.



Lately I had learned that just the stomach issues I was dealing with could have really taxed the liver (I think I have this right) by the improperly digested carbs being converted into alcohol in abundance. Maybe it's carbs to sugars to alcohols, I forget. Anyway, the poor digestion is why I wanted to cleanse the liver.

Honestly, been there, done that, suffered for it. What works for me and a number of others here is to stay grain free, low fat, and get good probiotics! I really recommend Tibicos (water kefir) for people with Celiac or gut problems. If you can, you might also look into squatting to eliminate instead of sitting.

All sugars are carbs. All carbs can convert to alcohol. Natural alcohol, as you will fine in low content (usually less than 1%) in some fruits and fermented drinks like Tibicos - these are not bad for you but will actually help your digestion. As even the Lord of the Bible recommended, "Take a little wine for your stomach." I have heard this actually meant a grape juice that is made the old way (stomping with your feet). It has a very light fermentation.

I relate this to the Philippine "tuba" It is coconut sap. White tuba has a very low alcohol content (about 1%) and is drank by many (men, women and children) to increase health and live long. Red tuba has a bark chip from a mangrove tree added, it ferments to a much higher alcohol content, about 4-6% like wine or beer. It is sometimes called "coconut wine." Most high 90's and 100's people here drink white tuba daily since childhood, it is a natural pro-biotic! Drinking Red tuba daily will rot your liver!





but possibly did pass some parasites. I also did parasite cleansing.

That too could have been parasites

Parasites are a problem that everyone should look into. In the Philippines I have a local parasite cleanse I take daily. However I have been told that more than half the people in America also have parasites and don't know it.

For me, I balance things. A parasite cleanse may be needed if you are just coming from SAD, but you should also look into an ongoing parasite control program. Something to do daily to prevent re-infestations.

I honestly feel the proactive daily programs for both parasites and things like liver and kidney cleansing are more effective in the long run. However, some people like the abuse / flush cycle in their life.

Consider that if a person does a detox - then how do they re-tox? That is the abuse / flush cycle...

Detox, retox, detox, retox, etc.

Better to have a daily detox diet and to consume living food that keeps you Tox-Free! You can actually detox gently by just being Tox-Free. That is what green smoothie feasting is about and what the RAW118 Cleanse promotes. Then stay Tox-Free by Listening to your body!

Some here are proposing to do a RAW118 Spring Cleanse! We clean our homes in a spring cleaning, maybe, they suggest, we should do a balance of our body also. Some people are already doing this with long green smoothie fasting that happens to meet the RAW118 Cleanse plan. I have read about some who have even gone six months on green smoothies alone!



you wrote a very thorough post to help me. Thank you and I will go through it in the morning. Since reading your past experiences I have cut baack on the oils and feel that is what is helping me also. I will post back tomorrow after I read your second post. Thank you so much for taking your time to help me with this, I am most grateful and am praying for you, my brother. God bless and good night.

I think of it as an investment... people have invested in me and that changed my life... It is my responsibility to pass this on, to invest what I have learned to help others. I am not selling anything, not earning anything, but I still profit from everyone I help. The act of helping another is a benefit or profit in the lives of everyone who has been helped. My advise... pass on what you have been helped with.

[streetsurfer]

What works for me and a number of others here is to stay grain free, low fat, and get good probiotics! I really recommend Tibicos (water kefir) for people with Celiac or gut problems. If you can, you might also look into squatting to eliminate instead of sitting.

I am commited to healing and can certainly do the grain free, low fat. I'd say I'm almost there. I do eat bean sprouts and the occassional bowl of wheat/oat free granola. I've cut way back on oils. I do take probiotics - (some supplements), then coconut yogurt daily, and coconut kefir when available, though I'd like to start making my own of each of those so I can remain on the raw side. I have edited my first post to reflect why probiotics are so mandatory for my health...no appendix.
I also do my best to assume a squat position and it is helping avoid toxemia from straining and pushing large intestine contents past the weak iliocecal valve and back into the small intestines (the no appendix issue again).


As even the Lord of the Bible recommended, "Take a little wine for your stomach." I have heard this actually meant a grape juice that is made the old way (stomping with your feet). It has a very light fermentation.
I relate this to the Philippine "tuba" It is coconut sap. White tuba has a very low alcohol content (about 1%) and is drank by many (men, women and children) to increase health and live long.

In agreement on the wine. My wonderful wife just brought home some Raw Coconut Vinegar made from the sap. I'm using it now, but have also been using ACV for a long time. If cost permits I will continue with the Coconut. It is very tasty. Not sure if that is the same as tuba.




However I have been told that more than half the people in America also have parasites and don't know it.

you should also look into an ongoing parasite control program. Something to do daily to prevent re-infestations.

I do try to do a daily regimen. Not continually daily, but for couple weeks, then a week off, then back at it. Sometimes I get lax and forget, but I try. I take grapefruit seed extract, plus diatomaceous earth in a glass of water. There are several things I noticed that I won't go into, that lead me to believe I purged parasites as a result of this treatment. I have also added black walnut tincture at times. I plan to continue this as you say, as a preventative measure. I also give our cat diatomaceous earth and at night have secluded myself to my own room while sleeping, so as not to be sleeping with a cat who could be a carrier. I now have to convince my wife of the danger. She like so many Americans, does not want to recognize the parasite issue. I feel it is because of the stigma attached to it. That one must be unclean if they have them. We have a television program here called "Monsters inside me". If ever I mention parasites, the reaction I get from her is "You need to quit watching that parasite show."


I think of it as an investment... people have invested in me and that changed my life... It is my responsibility to pass this on, to invest what I have learned to help others. I am not selling anything, not earning anything, but I still profit from everyone I help. The act of helping another is a benefit or profit in the lives of everyone who has been helped. My advise... pass on what you have been helped with.
I feel exactly as you do here. God has blessed me richly by guiding me to Alissa's forum and then finally connecting me with you. Why I stayed ill for so long, I am not sure, but I know my heart was being reshaped in the meantime, compassion was being taught to me, bitterness and a sometimes unforgiving attitude was being dealt with. As spiritual growth occured so did physical healig. I am very much committed to paying it forward. I don't know if you read it or not but I came across Raw Food Talk as a result of a four day fast and much prayer. There have been too many God-incidents, too many pieces falling into place at the same time, too much healing and recovery for me to think it was anything but God's hand in the matter. I wonder sometimes if speaking of the religious or spiritual side of things here will upset some of the membership, but that is a chance I will take. I don't wish to offend, or try to convert others through this forum, but rather to share what has worked for me in hopes of helping others, and to continue to learn what else I can do to help me return to my former health, and then beyond. I also hope that my speaking of spiritual matters and my Lord, will not get any posts removed. There is probably someone else out there, just like you or I were when we were at our worst, searching for answers too.

[VeGenesis]

In agreement on the wine. My wonderful wife just brought home some Raw Coconut Vinegar made from the sap. I'm using it now, but have also been using ACV for a long time. If cost permits I will continue with the Coconut. It is very tasty. Not sure if that is the same as tuba.

Tuba (red or white) is fermented 14-17 more days to get Coconut Vinegar!

You don't have in your profile where you are in the world? I also use the Raw ACV a little. Actually I am moving away from vinegar all together. I think it is just a bit to strong of an acid for where I am at today.

[VeGenesis]

I will just touch on a few things as it is already getting late in the evening...

I would HIGHLY recommend making your own probiotics. For example store bought milk yogurt is set up for only 4 hours! I always made mine (pre raw) for 24 hours! HUGE difference. I have no idea what short cuts coconut yogurt uses, but I am sure they do!

As for coconut kefir, it is not usually made from Tibicos (water kefir grains) at all! They make it by injecting one or two of the normal 50+ organizations in that normal colony (grain). It is often pasteurized which not only makes it not raw but also makes it pretty useless as a probiotic!

Likewise, if you make your own kefir from water kefir grains, called Tibicus or SKG (sugary kefir grains) you will have extra grains daily! I try to make enough water kefir for our family, so I can eat a cup of the grains daily. This is amazing! I also make coconut water kefir too! I start by getting a coconut that was growing on the tree the same day!

The water kefir will sooth your intestines, but the grains implant and last much longer...

===

My wife also thought ongoing parasite control was silly until one of our boys was diagnosed with pin worms - likely picked up at school - highly contagious! Pin worms are easy to get rid of but do need more than one treatment. The doctor recommended repeat treatments for everyone in our house!

I use a product that works for me which I will not name on the forum. I just think everyone should have some parasite control. Cats carry many more than dogs. Our dog, people say, gets better care than most children. But we do not let her sleep with anyone!

===

As to religion - this is not a religious forum. It is about Alissa's point of view on living on live food - Raw Food! That said, most people here seem to agree that we are designed with a connection to nature. Design implies someone above man - God!

God is regularly mentioned in posts as a point of creation. Many feel much more spiritual after going raw, especially 100% raw. I would venture to say that most major religious organizations are represented on this board. Likewise a few who have a system of faith but no organized religion.

But this forum is about Raw Food Talk!

Personally, I believe all ancient books have some wisdom about food. People were smarter before agro business started advertising! Not too many (any?) food businesses date back even 200 years!

Most people know that I came into raw food via a Bible study in which I noticed three verses in the book of Genesis in the Bible. One spoke about eating flesh, another about cooking, and the cream dela cream was about what the God of the Bible states is food. I happen to ask my wife what is the opposite of food and she answered in a single word - "Poison!" When I found RFT I found many of Alissa's ideas were much like my own.

Living food brings life to the body, dead food brings death. I just express it as food brings life and poison (that which is not food) brings death.

I am not trying to teach about any religious thing. It is just the path I traveled to get to here. Everyone here is on a RAW FOOD JOURNEY! We all got here some how!

For example, I personally find the expressions bad food, dead food, and cooked food as being funny, in an oxymoron kind of way. Food nurtures the body making it healthy and alive. Poison makes you sick and die. How can what makes you sick and die be called food? But this form is about Living On Live Food! It is not Poison Talk or Dead Stuff Talk!

Some people have contacted me and asked me about my faith - and I am happy to answer anyone - just not here! This forum is about food - Raw FOOD and the Philosophy Alissa puts forth. Listen to your body talk!

I am blessed to live in a little corner of the world where I have neighbors and friends from many religions and faiths, living together in one community in peace. I have many things in common with my neighbors. When the power fails we are all in darkness! When the waterline breaks, we all suffer together! When the roast pig parade goes by (Talisay is famous for roast pig), my Muslim and Hindu friends and I laugh at the thought of the people who are going to "Pig Out!" (Some will land in the hospital because of the food!) When the Princess of the Stars ship sunk, nearly 400 of my neighbors died. It did not matter what religion they were. I live on the way to the cemetery and my road was blocked off many days for months as the bodies were recovered from the ship. We all suffered and cried together. We are a community.

I view this forum the same way. We have a number of things in common. I want a better health, a better life. I have children and family and grandchildren - just like my physical neighbors. But my "neighbors" here at Raw Food Talk all believe in the power of raw food. That is what makes this forum strong. We are a Raw Food Community.

I do believe I understand you streetsurfer - Yet I believe that we were made with many things in common, regardless of religion. We are human, we are able to love for example. We are able to benefit from eating Raw Vegan Food. This site allows us to love each other and to share our experiences eating Raw Vegan Food - now that is pretty cool!

[lovenlife]

It is very important to note,for healthy people and not with conditions such as these, the liver flush has amazing results and it highly beneficial for cleaning it all out. I feel that liver flushing got a bad rap here over this experience.

I have never heard of anyone having any sickness (until poor Lans:()resulting from this flush. In fact I have heard of many a people on the way for surgery flush the lvier and avoid surgery!

I couldnt read all this above as it was way too much all at once and soooo long. Thank you for it for sure.Later maybe.

[streetsurfer]

Vegenesis, I have modified my profile to reflect my location. I live a half hour out of Chicago in the suburbs. I think I put that in my introduction post, but never filled in my profile page. Thanks for the heads up. I have another page of comments for you but may e-mail them if you have that feature turned on. Thank you kindly.


It is very important to note,for healthy people and not with conditions such as these, the liver flush has amazing results and it highly beneficial for cleaning it all out. I feel that liver flushing got a bad rap here over this experience.

I'm sorry, I certainly didn't mean to give it a bad rap. In spite of the benefits I did realize from it, it did make me ill, and likely caused a relapse as far as my gut condition, which took me a couple weeks to get back on top of. I would probably still encourage others to perform the flush given they aren't celiacs, or have issues where leaky gut would be suspected. It was obvious to me from all the reading, that most people don't feel ill afterwords.

Here's the good I think I realized from it-parasites were purged I do believe from some visible evidence, and surely it helped clean the liver and duct out as over the next couple weeks I did feel the rumbling in the liver to stomach area as well as a few twinges in the liver area that I had never felt before. I think that is explained as more stones passing out of the liver and down the duct. And then too, I have not had the terrible pain in the middle of my back, under the shoulder blades that some foods seemed to cause me before the cleanse. During the flush I was too ill to want to examine the pebbles to see if they were in fact stones. Some floated, some sank. I noticed the yellow flakes which are explained as bile. In the recent past I had concentrated heavily on apple juice a couple times for a week or so without including the rest of the flush. That hopefully had a positive effect on releasing or dissolving some stones too.

I wondered about the rash, and found out so much more helpful information as a result, regarding my condition. I would still caution anyone with gluten issues/leaky gut, to consult with an experienced person, and to remain on alert in case they needed medical assistance during the flush. Oh, one more thing that some might find helpful. I was also going by Brenda Watsons protocol for this, and at the suggestion in her books, used only about half the recommended oil amount.

[katchmoleen]

One thing that the post of Alissa's does not emphasize is that the liver flush should be done in conjunction with other cleanses. Because you may possibly flush out a bunch of stuff from your gall bladder, including parasites and definitely old rotten bile that has been trapped in there forever. So it is important to have a clean colon. I have found that doing a colon cleanse in conjunction with the liver cleanse works really well. The very first time I did a liver flush, I had a lot of discomfort, but never since then. I make sure my colon is pretty much empty and do enemas before and the morning after the flush so that the stones and whatever else I flushed out just go right through me rather than being reabsorbed and making me sick. I also recommend eating NO solid food the day of the flush and to eat nothing at all after noon.

I am going to emphasize that the epsoms salts are an over the counter remedy, taken in over the counter doses. However, this last time I did not use epsom salts and had very good results. A half a cup of oil is a lot of oil at once, but in our SAD lives if we ate a lot of junk food, we got that much oil in one dose and never thought a thing of it. If what Lan's doctor says is true, Lan should have had this same reaction every time he used to eat his two Meat Lover's pizzas for lunch, because I am sure there was AT LEAST a half cup of fat in those two pizzas!

I am still puzzling over Lan's reaction. His doctor's explanation does not make sense to me physiologically and anatomically. I am celiac with lots of gut problems but have never had a problem with the oil part of the liver flush. But for most people, even with some health problems, the liver flush is a godsend.

Anyway, it does come down to listening to your body and taking responsibility for your own health. I am hesitant to even recommend the liver flush now, but I will say this about my own experience....each time I have done it, I have felt better and the experience was easier.

[rawrawks]

Kath, I feel the same way. I have even heard of really sick people doing the flush and having great results.
I love the way I feel after and how blissed out I am. It is such a clean feeling and amazing energy.
I think I will recco the flush and have them sign a waiver (just in case).

[stellaJewels]

Hey guys, I thought I'd jump in here and share my experience with healing leaky gut issues. Mine was so bad I'd get terrible rashes all over my stomach from any fruit (even non-sweet), and if I ate olive oil, my skin and bedsheets would stink of it. I read in Dr Fife's Detox Book that you shouldn't do liver or kidney cleanses until you've healed the leaky gut, so thankfully I never tried one then or I may have gotten ill like you guys did...

Anyway, here's some things that helped heal my leaky gut issues (not all the way healed yet, but LOTS better) in case they might be helpful

1. Lily of the Desert Aloe Vera 80 Stomach Formula - a mix of aloe and stomach herbs like ginger, slippery elm, pau d'arco, peppermint... It's helped me and my mom TONS
2. Lots of coconut
3. Lots of fermented stuff - sauerkraut (homemade or Bubbie's), kim chi (homemade or Sunja's), Kombucha, coconut kefir, Bubbie's pickles
4. Dr Ohhira's probiotics - I've tried many others and this one has worked 1000x better, plus it's dairy-free, soy-free and gluten-free
5. Daily Coconut Oil Packs - same as castor oil packs using flannel/plastic wrap/heating pad, but waaaay more effective imo
6. Chia Seeds - have the same healing and stomach-soothing properties as gelatin (hydrophillic colloids) without being made from animal bones

I know some people don't do well with spices, but the more spices I use the better my gut gets. I have Addison's Disease (the extreme form of adrenal insufficiency) which makes me have very low stomach acid, so I do way better when I eat the spices that stimulate digestion - ginger, garlic, cayenne, cinnamon, cardamom, onions etc... which also happen to be anti-candida and anti-parasite (another cause of leaky gut)

I hope there's something on that list that can help you! Good luck :D

[streetsurfer]

Hey guys, I thought I'd jump in here and share my experience with healing leaky gut issues.

Anyway, here's some things that helped heal my leaky gut issues (not all the way healed yet, but LOTS better) in case they might be helpful

1. Lily of the Desert Aloe Vera 80 Stomach Formula
2. Lots of coconut
3. Lots of fermented stuff
4. Dr Ohhira's probiotics
5. Daily Coconut Oil Packs
6. Chia Seeds

I know some people don't do well with spices, but the more spices I use the better my gut gets.

I hope there's something on that list that can help you! Good luck :D

Thanks much stellaJewels! I'm curious, did you do testing for food sensitivities and how many showed up, if so? How long until you overcame them? As for the spices I can handle what you mentioned except for peppers and onions. Red, green, and black, all showed up as reactive in Elisa testing. They couldn't specify if it included hot peppers but I was told to avoid them too. I have since tried a blend of hot ground red peppers and paid the price. I've tried grains of paradise thinking they would be ok, thinking they are not a true pepper, but they still bothered me. Hot peppers were one of my hardest food changes to accept, or all mexican dishes really. I can't wait to be able to consume them safely again. I had been a lover of all thing's hot and ate fresh jalapenos and serranos often, thus the allergy to them. I do feel they kept my gut healthy and immune system boosted, until the leaky gut became an issue.
I'll check our library for Dr. Fife's book. I'm reading Adrenal Fatigue/James Wilson right now.
1. I think I searched here when I joined and came up with this suggestion...in one of your threads possibly. At the time I shopped one or two places, didn't find it and instead just bought some L. glutamine from Jarrow. I'll try to get some Aloe Vera 80 asap. I am drinking aloe vera juice in all my smoothies and once in a while by itself.
2. I add coconut to my smoothies but will try to consume more. I have coconut water fairly often with the cubes included.
3. I go through a jar of Bubbie's a week, and don't waste a drop of the juice. I think the pickles have one of my allergens in them, might be celery seed, I forget. I tried making my own kraut this summer - it flopped, but will try again next year. I wish Bubbie was my bubbie and I could get free jars of it:D
4.Dr Ohhira's probiotics....I might try these next, or culture the water kefir grains
5. Have yet to try this. Sounds soothing.
6. Never tried these but I do use slippery elm. It has similar properties I understand.

Thank you also to katchmoleen
for your tips. I can see how not being fully cleaned out could complicate things. Some of the misery I felt was like I had brain swelling and for some reason I wanted to attribute that to the salts at the time. Does that make sense? Like my electrolytes were way out of whack. I had bad muscle cramps all over also. I might be willing to give it another go down the road a bit with half the oil and no epsom salts. I go about 135# so maybe what I took was just too much for my size. I guess I am ridin the fence about this procedure. All the information is helping me not be so afraid of it though. Thanks all.

[misslinda]

Sorry to chime in here so abruptly.

I'm a big fan of slippery elm water too for gut healing. Helps also to draw out the toxins thru premeated intestinal walls as well. Leaky gut syndrome after a period of time, overloads the elminatory organs thus making a cleansing vital to purify the blood. Folks with leaky gut, respond very well to fasting.

[streetsurfer]

Sorry to chime in here so abruptly.

I'm a big fan of slippery elm water too for gut healing. Helps also to draw out the toxins thru premeated intestinal walls as well. Leaky gut syndrome after a period of time, overloads the elminatory organs thus making a cleansing vital to purify the blood. Folks with leaky gut, respond very well to fasting.

Oh, no need to apologize. I welcome everyone's input. I'm pleased to meet you, and welcome back.

[katchmoleen]

Ditto on the fasting. Here is my experience (WARNING: BM talk coming up!!!!)

I began raw on 6/12/09. I began having fairly severe diarrhea right away, but because I gradually felt better in other ways, and it was of the non-cramping kind, I put up with it, as I have my whole life. In September, I did a three day water fast and a 5 day green smoothie fast. I noticed a difference in my bowels right away, after 3 months of not one single day without diarrhea. They firmed up a tiny bit, and were less frequent. Since then I have done two more green smoothie fasts and am now on number 3. My bowels are now just about normal. They went from diarrhea, to pencil thin, to rope, to now the normal "logs" that other people have. I still have some urgency that I hope will go away. I am sure others with colitis and IBS and other bowel problems will understand that some days I want to take a picture of what is in the toilet and put it on my wall, I am so excited! I do not take any supplements of any kind. This is all due to fasting, 1-3 days with water, then 5-11 days of green smoothies. I plan to do a green smoothie fast of at least 5 days every month as I see such benefits for my body and health.

[stellaJewels]

I never got tested for allergies because I had too many other life-threatening issues going on from the environment and Addison's. I know for sure I'm allergic to any grains because my throat closed up when I last tried to eat them. If you have bad adrenals you're going to have allergies; think of how many things people take steroids for and that's all the things the adrenals help control... Even worse if there's more foreign stuff coming thru the intestinal walls. So I try to focus on healing the gut and adrenals rather than trying to avoid everything. (Except grains, I'll never touch another grain!) I'm not over my allergies, and they change all the time but I know it's b/c of my adrenals so I'm kinda stuck with it

My mom has issues with leaky gut too and can't touch a pepper in any way shape or form without getting an eczema rash on her face. I read somewhere that peppers can cause the intestines to be more permeable, so keep on avoiding them until you heal more. I think my stomach acid issues outweigh that effect, or maybe my problems are in the large intestine and yours and my mom's are in the small intestine. Just a theory...;)

You could also dehydrate papaya seeds and use those as pepper instead, or put them in your smoothies like I do - my favorite smoothie is papaya and about 1 TB seeds, peach or mango, greens, mint, ginger, coconut water and aloe juice - delicious and healing, and pretty spicy :cool:

Until I got my local co-op to carry the aloe, we bought it from vitacost, they have the best price on it. And if you're looking at the library for Dr Fife, I highly recommend The Coconut Oil Miracle even more than the other one, that book saved my life! Coconut water's fabulous, but the soft meat and the oil is what healed me the most.

After I finally gained some weight back I did a few short fasts that were very healing as well. Just make sure they're short fasts with adrenal issues, like 3 days

One more recommendation - the pickle/sauerkraut maker from therawdiet.com, perfect kraut every time! :)

[VeGenesis]

My mom has issues with leaky gut too and can't touch a pepper in any way shape or form without getting an eczema rash on her face. I read somewhere that peppers can cause the intestines to be more permeable, so keep on avoiding them until you heal more.

And if you're looking at the library for Dr Fife, I highly recommend The Coconut Oil Miracle even more than the other one, that book saved my life! Coconut water's fabulous, but the soft meat and the oil is what healed me the most.


Hey Jewels, is that pepper as in black pepper or pickled peppers as in spicy peppers? My Honeybun thinks pickled peppers (Peperoncinis) are making my skin on my face extremely dry (but I am thinking about B-12 issues myself!). Although I plan to stop even the few of these as I am moving away from vinegar to just use citrus (Calamansi).

The soft meat of young coconut actually has little oil in it (compared to like an Avo) - but I agree it has great healing power. (I'm drinking some now!)

Tibicos Buko (Tibicos grown in Young Coconut Water) and even Tibicos Tubig (Tibicos grown in water and low temp dehydrated Muscovado) - these are both types of what some people call "water kefir" - that is a popular term but technically not correct as "kefir" is always grown in milk. Water kefir, (sugar kefir) are actually Tibicos and they can be grown in some kinds of sweet fruit juice. Just after Christmas apples get really cheap in the Philippines and we plan to try to make a batch of Apple Tibicos!

I would HIGHLY recommend the Tibicos Buko (Coconut) as it has done wonders for healing my leaky gut pain.

[VeGenesis]

If what Lan's doctor says is true, Lan should have had this same reaction every time he used to eat his two Meat Lover's pizzas for lunch, because I am sure there was AT LEAST a half cup of fat in those two pizzas!

I am still puzzling over Lan's reaction. His doctor's explanation does not make sense to me physiologically and anatomically.

Hey Ketch, I have thought about that too.

For the record, even the doctors could not decide what happened to me. The Intern blamed the sea salt colon flushes I did with the Apple Juice Fast. The Hospital Doctor is the one with the idea of some kind of spike in the oil. Oil does effect me very negatively and I do much better without it. I personally do better on whole foods.

My personal (Raw Food Friendly) doctor seemed to be leaning toward the Epsom salts. He thought the Epsom salts may have dilated my blood vessels as well as the bile duct. He felt that a blood clot or rupture may have been dislodged and moved. When the Epsom salt wore off and the blood vessels returned to normal size the clot was then blocking a larger percentage of the blood vessel. He believes it may be years after I reach my goal weight before my blood vessels are really healed.

Although he admitted it was just a theory. On the other hand, when I started this journey I had a baseball size clot in my right leg that no one wanted to operate on for fear I would die on the table! It kinda gives you an idea of how bad I really was.

At any rate, all three doctors advised ME to stay away from oil, salt and Epsoms. In my case, because of my cardiovascular problems, I agree with them. But Katch, I do wonder about the oil as in my SAD life I ate a ton of cheese (actually likely more than that!). :eek:

On the other hand I used to eat garlic and spices like they were sugar, but now even a single clove of garlic can really effect me - and my Honeybun too. I read one page somewhere that as we heal, the toxins that we used to eat all the time effect us more. In other words, eating a half kilo of cheese daily all the time may have had less immediate effect as a few ounces would have on a more healthy body.

Actually I think a daily Granny Smith Apple, a few carrots, 500g of greens and a liter of Tibicos Buko (Tibicos grown in Young Coconut Water) DAILY is better at cleaning the liver and gall bladder and keeping them clean, free and open... The plug up and flush cycle seems a bit strange to me, considering the basic Raw Food Lifestyle.

Here is a little info on Leaky Gut that I found interesting. http://jacknorrisrd.com/?p=707

Jack is Vegan, but not raw. His report is what I would class as medicine, not raw and not even vegan (as most medicine). Nonetheless it may be helpful for someone with a Leaky Gut in transition.

Jack is a Registered Dietitian and friendly toward raw vegans (he's sorta an animal rights type). You can see it on his other site, VeganHealth.org (http://www.veganhealth.org/) where I have been reading about B-12 issues.

My doc thinks I may be short on B-12 and wants me to either take a whole bunch of blood work (B12, MMA, D, Iron, etc, etc) or take 2mg sublingual vitamin B12 daily for a couple weeks. Haven't decided what to do...