managing organic kale through the winter.

[Krayton]

Ok, here's issue. For me most of my kale is conventional and $0.78 cent a pound throught my local ethnic market. It's on the most contaminated list which appears to be based on the # of pesticides, not level or total loadings. (where do I go for that data since that's what really counts). But I juice all of my kale in my Green Power Kempo Juicer. Toss the pulp.

Figure the risk of the residues in the juice are far outweighed by the evidence on green vegetable consumption.

But, I want to get the maximum benefit of organic greens. And my options look to be Whole Foods, ($2.49 per bunch, equals $5. per pound) and my conventional 78 cents per pound ethnic market kale that looks pretty good through the juicer.

All politics and food consumption is local, right? So, suck it up and pay Whole Foods premium acting like a monopoly or continue to juice conventional kale on the cheap. No to either,

I'm going to grow my own even in winter (don't ask me how, haven't figured that far ahead with December in front of me) and just continue to sprout my brocolli seeds. Maybe I should just sprout kale seeds year round and leave it be. lol Thanks for listening.

Paul

[lovenlife]

Kale might grow inside. I have an abundance still from friends as kale grows til it snows and after. I freeze it as well. I wouldnt buy the pesticided ones.

[Krayton]

Kale might grow inside. I have an abundance still from friends as kale grows til it snows and after. I freeze it as well. I wouldnt buy the pesticided ones.

Appreciate it. Am very much inclined to see what I can grow here (VA) but if the ground freezes below the root level, I can't do much. Thanks.

note to the mods, the 5 minute limit on edit prior posts is way too short. Please extend it to at least 10 minutes or 15.

[sozei]

I was once in your shoes.....i loved my .78/lb Kale . . .occasionally i would get the organic...but i would think of how much more it costs and etc......
. . .But...one day....out of nowhere..... it came to me. I deserve the best fruits/veggies that i can afford. And now i only buy organic Kale... I deserve it.:D.....

[Krayton]

I was once in your shoes.....i loved my .78/lb Kale . . .occasionally i would get the organic...but i would think of how much more it costs and etc......
. . .But...one day....out of nowhere..... it came to me. I deserve the best fruits/veggies that i can afford. And now i only buy organic Kale... I deserve it.:D.....

Maybe there is a message, here! I'm thinking combining organic kale sprouts with occasional Whole Foods runs and forgetting the convetional kale all together unless I can get a better deal from the Loudoun County farms next county over! :)

Paul

[Tsurugi_Oni]

I think growing it is a great idea!! Growing greens is so easy that just about anyone can do it. I'd just make sure to measure how much goes into a green smoothie so you can guestimate how much you want to sow.

[anniez]

I'd love to hear more about growing it indoors. Non-organic anything is not an option for me. I've just read too much!

Annie

[streetsurfer]

I posted in another thread recently about growing kale indoors under lights. I had checked with a local brew and grow store. They report they have done kale very successfully with T-5 fixtures, harvesting the lower and outer leaves as it grew.
T-5 bulbs are narrower than your typical fl tube. T-12's are your standard shop light tube @ about 1-1/4" diameter, T8's about 1" diameter, and T-5's are about 3/4" diameter. Any of those should do fine. T-5's are supposed to be the most efficient, power usage to output, IIRC. They produce very little heat and your plants are kept within close proximity to the bulbs, the only limitation is you need to grow directly under them, as they don't cast much usable light out to the side like a metal halide or high pressure sodium would. The latter two (hps and mh) produce alot of heat and require more distance between light and plant, and a means of cooling/air circulation if in a confined space. I think with a 1'x2' T-5 fixture at 89 watts you should be able to grow two kale plants, maybe three. Last year I had two cherry tomatoes under one that size. Two baby bear sunflower plants at another time,6-10 lettuce plants at other times. Figure one sq ft per larger plant.

As a result of hearing Kale can be done under a T-5's(I thought they would grow too tall to support much foliage, but not so), I planted six seeds just three days ago. Today 5 of the seeds have emerged and 4 are already and inch tall. Woohoo, off to a great start.
I will be using T-12 and T-8 4' shop light fixtures to sustain them for a while, hoping to switch over to the T-5 when I can make more room. The seeds I used are from Ferry-Morse and are Dwarf Blue Curled, Vates strain.
With the two fixtures I have I expect to grow these six plants, although I think that will produce more than I can eat by myself throughout the grow. Then too, I might find some red or other kale, or plant some mizuna to replace a couple of these seedlings. The fertilizer I will use is Aggrand, soil is Ocean Forest, fixtures are by HydroFarm.
I hope this will help anyone attempting to grow your own produce indoors this winter indoors.

[Krayton]

I posted in another thread recently about growing kale indoors under lights. I had checked with a local brew and grow store. They report they have done kale very successfully with T-5 fixtures, harvesting the lower and outer leaves as it grew.
T-5 bulbs are narrower than your typical fl tube. T-12's are your standard shop light tube @ about 1-1/4" diameter, T8's about 1" diameter, and T-5's are about 3/4" diameter. Any of those should do fine. T-5's are supposed to be the most efficient, power usage to output, IIRC. They produce very little heat and your plants are kept within close proximity to the bulbs, the only limitation is you need to grow directly under them, as they don't cast much usable light out to the side like a metal halide or high pressure sodium would. The latter two (hps and mh) produce alot of heat and require more distance between light and plant, and a means of cooling/air circulation if in a confined space. I think with a 1'x2' T-5 fixture at 89 watts you should be able to grow two kale plants, maybe three. Last year I had two cherry tomatoes under one that size. Two baby bear sunflower plants at another time,6-10 lettuce plants at other times. Figure one sq ft per larger plant.

As a result of hearing Kale can be done under a T-5's(I thought they would grow too tall to support much foliage, but not so), I planted six seeds just three days ago. Today 5 of the seeds have emerged and 4 are already and inch tall. Woohoo, off to a great start.
I will be using T-12 and T-8 4' shop light fixtures to sustain them for a while, hoping to switch over to the T-5 when I can make more room. The seeds I used are from Ferry-Morse and are Dwarf Blue Curled, Vates strain.
With the two fixtures I have I expect to grow these six plants, although I think that will produce more than I can eat by myself throughout the grow. Then too, I might find some red or other kale, or plant some mizuna to replace a couple of these seedlings. The fertilizer I will use is Aggrand, soil is Ocean Forest, fixtures are by HydroFarm.
I hope this will help anyone attempting to grow your own produce indoors this winter indoors.


For everything, lights, seed, and fertilizer. Very informative

[T-Bird]

Originally Posted by sozei View Post
I was once in your shoes.....i loved my .78/lb Kale . . .occasionally i would get the organic...but i would think of how much more it costs and etc......
. . .But...one day....out of nowhere..... it came to me. I deserve the best fruits/veggies that i can afford. And now i only buy organic Kale... I deserve it......

But when you see other life goals slipping away due to spending more on food...


vacations.....

where/how you live.....

retirement receeding ever farther out of reach.....

It really is a big deal. It totally pisses me off as everything could and should be grown organically.

Organic should not be "gourmet" it is life to us all.

[T-Bird]

I'm learning to fall and winter garden too.

We really need to do our own to have real control....

I have a few things growing under large glass salad bowls from ikea......trying to set up a cold frame with some old window.....

[Tsurugi_Oni]

The way I see it, the .78c Kale is the reason we can take vacations, live in mansions, etc. It's a tradeoff people unknowingly make.

[sozei]

The way I see it, the .78c Kale is the reason we can take vacations, live in mansions, etc. It's a tradeoff people unknowingly make.


So if i didn't splurge on organic kale...I could be living in a mansion?...or even take a vacation? . . lol. ... but i did say " buy what you can afford"
But seriously... you make the choice... organic or conventional. That's it...no stressing about what you choose. Just enjoy the Raw food :)

[kaybee]

you guys--plant corn salad aka "mache" in your cold frames. it is a bit fiddly in terms of harvesting because the leaves arent that big, but it thrives in low light low temperature!

the problem ive had with kale is that it seems to take FOREVER to get to any size of where i can harvest from it. basically, even if i start it in the greenhouse in february, its usually august before i can get much off of it. so i would think it might be difficult to get any quantity for quite some time if you are just starting it now, unless you are growing it in such a quantity of plants that you can just take a leaf off of each of 40 or 50 baby plants every day... it seems like you guys know more about growing it inside though so i dont know. i do know that if you plant the plants out in the spring, it will produce for you all summer and into the fall and overwinters well in alot of places, maybe with some cover or a cold frame im not sure, but when i lived in massachusetts i picked it from the mature plants outside for thanksgiving in the snow.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Oh I agree 100%, get whatever suits your needs. In the end of the day tho I think it's much more than "organic or intensive". It's the ways which we choose to relate to our earth, society, and our sense of self. If you're in the middle of New York City and expect the freshest organic produce the two ideas conflict.

The good thing about growing greens indoors is that you don't really need to invest in different light sources. Since you don't have to fruit you can save a ton of $$$ on startup costs.

[Rick2009]

Oh I agree 100%, get whatever suits your needs. In the end of the day tho I think it's much more than "organic or intensive". It's the ways which we choose to relate to our earth, society, and our sense of self. If you're in the middle of New York City and expect the freshest organic produce the two ideas conflict.

The good thing about growing greens indoors is that you don't really need to invest in different light sources. Since you don't have to fruit you can save a ton of $$$ on startup costs.

I was taking a raw class and found that some of the students were growing wheatgrass. So I grew it for awhile. There's something about indoor gardening..its extra energy, extra life force in your immediate surroundings.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

I've actually grown wheatgrass juice, it is super duper easy to grow. The thing about wheatgrass tho is that it's practically a sprout when you juice it. You can grow it a good 3 inches without any sunlight.

Kale would be SO much more intensive grown indoors. I'm really curious to see how it goes tho.

[lovenlife]

streetsurfer said:
I will be using T-12 and T-8 4' shop light fixtures to sustain them for a while, hoping to switch over to the T-5 when I can make more room. The seeds I used are from Ferry-Morse and are Dwarf Blue Curled, Vates strain.
With the two fixtures I have I expect to grow these six plants, although I think that will produce more than I can eat by myself throughout the grow.

I have a fixture T-12 and have Kale and tomato plants in there and a few other things...herbs (parsley n such) and I have a question (or two)...

How much light do you have on them? I mean hours?

How close are the plants to the light?

How warm do you need it to be?

If you shut the light off at night (to keep true to outdoor growing) does the chilly night affect the plants?

Do I need fert. if I find the plants no growing so well?

And why are the leaves yellowing...not enough light? too cold at night?

All these questions because my plants are not doing well. thank you for your help streetsurfer

[Tsurugi_Oni]

What kind of soil are you using? Are you blending it with something to aerate it??

If your soil is good and a good mix you shouldn't need fertilizer.

[lovenlife]

It is soil that I had outdoors....with worms aerating it out there. Is it my soil that is not good...I wunda??? Say it isnt aerated, what can I do?

[streetsurfer]

streetsurfer said:

I have a fixture T-12 and have Kale and tomato plants in there and a few other things...herbs (parsley n such) and I have a question (or two)...

How much light do you have on them? I mean hours?

16-18 hours is my norm. You could even go with 24 if you are just wanting vegetative growth, and not flowering. Most warm season annuals, need to have shortened day periods to bring on flowering. I'd have to check, but I think tomatoes automatically go into flowering, rather than being controlled by the photoperiod (day/night ratio). For speeding up vegetation, you could also do something like 12 light and 6 dark, giving the plants nine and a half days of light in a weeks time. I think that would require a more expensive type of timer and I haven't tried it yet.

How close are the plants to the light?

With flourescents you can get real close since there's not much heat to burn the leaves, and the light drops off drastically the farther away you get from the lamps. I have stevia which is touching the bulbs without harm and african violets that do well at twelve inches away. I'd say shoot for 4-6" on most plants.

How warm do you need it to be?

I'd say 65-75 in most cases. Some lettuces can bolt around 80-85.

If you shut the light off at night (to keep true to outdoor growing) does the chilly night affect the plants?

My growing has been in living spaces so temps are fairly constant between 65-72. I doubt with any edibles that cool nights would be a problem. In fact, I think cooler nights are advantageous.

Do I need fert. if I find the plants no growing so well?

As Tsurugi Oni said, with choice soil, not usually. With potbound plants where the root mass is tightly filling the container, poor soil, or those grown for an extended term in the same soil, some might be beneficial. Soil test kits are helpful in determining if you need any, and are easy to use.

And why are the leaves yellowing...not enough light? too cold at night?

Most likely it is a condition of the soil remaining too damp. Back off some on your watering schedule and let your plants show some wilting before watering to see if that helps. While the surface may seem dry to you it could still be wet down by the roots so check farther down and wait for beginning signs of leaf droop before watering again.

All these questions because my plants are not doing well. thank you for your help streetsurfer

Doing the kale is new for me, so I'll be learning as I go, but I'm glad to share my experience to help others here. A very helpful book for me when starting was Gardening indoors with soil and hydroponics, by George F. Van Patten.

[lovenlife]

Thank you so much. This was very helpful . I already see where I can switch things up a bit! THANKS!

[streetsurfer]

You're very welcome.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

A lot of the times (depending on your setup) when you indoor garden you have to use a different type of soil than outdoor. Indoor soil compacts easily and you can get root rot and problems with nutrient absorbtion. You gotta get a combination of bigger rocks / sand to aerate it. IT may not be the problem, but its one thing to consider.

[lovenlife]

I see aeration as a definite issue here. What would I add to aerate it..or might i switch out my soil altogether. It is soil form outdoors from my compost pile (thus all the little critters that pop up every now n then).

[Rick2009]

Have you thought of peat moss to airate the soil ? Better aeration, and it feeds the composted nutrients to the roots in a more efficient fashion.

[Mary Kay]

Google all these words to find articles about the sustainability of peat moss. Many feel it is not en ecologically sound/sustainable practice to use it:

peat moss ecological Natural Life Magazine

I'm in NE Ohio and I just started various types of spinach and lettuce in a cold frame Oct 15th, and am harvesting them now.

Kale has been growing in the garden since this spring summer, so will build hoop houses for them.

I'd say grow as much as you can indoors now, next year DEFINITELY get some kale in early in the spring!

No time to look up now, but there's an excellent vid on YouTube about hoop houses made with 2 x 4's as a base, some bendable PVC, held in by conduit brackets, covered with plastic. they even use an attic vent on one side in the event it gets over 55 deg F, so the attic vent opens. No danger of that here in the winter, so I'm going to forego that, but what a cool idea.

HTH,

Mary Kay

[streetsurfer]

Mary Kay, may I ask what hardiness zone you are in? I'd like to see if I could get away with hoop houses. 5A here.

As for lovin lifes plants, I now see you are using compost. There might be the possibility that your compost was not mature enough. That could cause growth problems, even the yellowing. Because it remains too wet, or because of nutrients not being broken down enough. I mix my 'post with other materials rather than planting straight in it. I have made the mistake of using too much too early and lost two blueberry bushes to it.
Other things you could add in if it is staying too wet due to excess plant material (spongy wet from too much plant material rather than heavy muddy wet from too much mineral-clay/silt/sand) would be sand, perlite, vermiculite, or other soil/potting mix.
Mary Kay, a more sustainable amendment would be coconut coir, yes? Or Bio-char?

[lovenlife]

Yes maybe not mature enough compost..that sounds right. And not enough aeration.

Thats why I asked about aeration material because I had already heard about peat moss.

[Rick2009]

Yes maybe not mature enough compost..that sounds right. And not enough aeration.

Thats why I asked about aeration material because I had already heard about peat moss.

Whatever you choose to use for aeration, indoors its a must otherwise you risk mold and root rot. I had my wheatgrass trays prepared by people who were already growing wheatgrass: the soil composition was already optimal with lots of aeration. Growing it in trays with the right soil mix was such a cinch.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Woah MaryKay, I'm in NE Ohio too. What city do you live in? One of these days we should collaborate our dollars and go to the West Side Market for some shopping.