Self Sufficient Raw

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Do you think that it's possible to be self-sufficient in a temperate climate while staying raw? How difficult do you think it would be compared to a cooked diet? Let's use Central Ohio for example, all 4 seasons, good soil, and 3 farmhands. Standard farming equip for a small business.

[spicyfull]

You'll have to Spice and Heat up your Life. Eat Foods that are Spicy Hot like Cayenne and Teas. I don't like the Cold Weather. Frankly I don't know what I would do and that's the Truth. I be walking around like the "Mic.Tire Man".

[katchmoleen]

It would take lots of MONEY! Large heated greenhouse to grow your greens and veggies all winter. Big berry patch and orchard for your fruits. A huge garden to grow enough veggies that store well to last all winter. And crop failure is always a harsh reality. We usually have at least one severe hailstorm every summer here.

I plan to try everything (except the greenhouse...that is a pipe dream) and also sprout. but it takes awhile for fruit to get established so I would not be self sufficient in the fruit area for a number of years.

Also, NO nuts grow in Montana. But sunflowers do. So I would have to say bye bye to nuts (sob) and only use sunflower seeds. Flax grows well here so with my trusty combine I could harvest that.

With six kids, I don't need no stinkin' farmhands.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Sweet, I'm just tryin to get an idea of our forum's members relations with food - health - environment - energy usage. Thank you for responding guys.

[DebB]

You may enjoy John Kohler's YouTube channel, Growing Your Greens (http://www.youtube.com/user/growingyourgreens). *Ü*

[green jeanie]

pshhhhhwa

i say you can do it ABSOLUTELY

enough with tropical diet in a temperate climate!!!

Green Jeanie says enough!! :D:D:D

I am very very close to fully self-sustained and I live in NW washington. it's a lot of apples but my island loves me for it! and i feel great!!!

you can do it!!

there is a great book by a woman in maine or new hampshire who has an entirely passive greenhouse that produces year round and supplies greens and veggies to restaurants all winter even in 5 feet of snow.

we all need to not only believe it is possible but be fully committed to driving the potential all the way. if we don't do it who will?

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Green jeanie, you should blog. I would be your most enthusiastic follower ever. I think we need we need people who have already taken this journey to blog about it.

Imagine if scientists had to constantly research the same questions because there wasn't a good information network in place. We need a special network, a cumulation of people who are well-versed in this alternative thinking. We need to create a culture, an identity.

Or maybe you could redirect me to some of your inspirations??? Plz =}

[kaybee]

yeah i second that. direction puh-leaze!

do you know that lady's name in NH? that sounds really cool.

i am trying so hard to buy some of my own land so i can start some of this stuff! like, did you all know that you can grow goji berries in a lot of different climates? they grow in the desert, david wolfe was talking about this in a lecture i went to. but also where im from in massachusetts, there is a chinese organic farm that grows them there! and a guy here in ireland soaked a bunch of the sundried berries from the HFS and separated out the seeds and planted them and ended up with a bunch of goji plants. not sure how his experiement is going I'd have to find the website again. a lady here in ireland told our gardening group that she has a lemon tree here and it produces lemons. she just wraps it in bubble wrap for the winter or something lol

katchmoleen-you say no nuts will grow in montana...what about walnut or hazelnut? hazelnut grows in massachusetts and we get alot of snow there... also, dont know about this one, but MONKEYPUZZLE trees look like a great resource, ---but for the next generation...you have to wait 20 years or something for them to produce. BUT apparently 5 trees can provide enough nuts for an adult's protein for a year, or something like that. dont know if those would grow in montana.

hey ALL--check out KEN FERN's plant database "plants for a future" www.pfaf.org. AWESOME info. they have a sort of "experimental" organic farm(s) in england and focus on permaculture and perrenial edibles etc adn also have info on plants for dye, soap, fuel, oil etc that you can grow.

I LOVE this stuff, i want to get started so bad!

oh and one other good thing i learned from some foraging people who are doing this stuff like ken fern is doing is that LINDEN trees are a GREAT resource--you can EAT the young leaves, they are mild, though a bit slimy when chewed imho, lol and they put out young leaves throughout the spring and summer, AND apparently you can make an edible and palatable oil from the seeds!

[green jeanie]

yea!!

and i do blog btw :D

medicinewomen.wordpress.com
acupunctureandyou.wordpress.com

just getting started so the encouragement is great!!!!

we can do it!

[Tsurugi_Oni]

*Gasp* you are promoting non-raw ideas in your blogs!! I think excommunication is in order.............. :)

J/k of course, I've read through all of your blogs and they're very inspiring. I love how you blend the best of everything into one healthy philosophy.

My mom has actually used a traditional (but expensive) daily dosage of Korean Ginseng + Dried Date + Ginger tea to heal herself of a serious medical problem. So it's good to see other people who have dived into asian traditional medicines.

[katchmoleen]

Nope..... no nuts. Our climate is mostly zone 3-4, so that is problem number one. We also have very alkaline soil and most nuts like a more acid soil. I have heard of some people babying certain nut trees along, but never having a successful harvest. it just isn't feasible. However, we have a lot of pine trees with the native style pine nuts (not the type you buy in the store). The squirrels like them....I will have to try them next fall if I get into the forest.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

I think if you could somehow develop a machine to deseed and dehull the pine seeds it would actually be a good food source. It takes so much time to do it manually for the tiny morsels you get. At least in the pines we have in the northeast.

[Ilse W.]

The woman in Maine you are talking about is probably Barbara Damrosch, author of "The Garden Primer". She is married to Eliot Coleman, author of "Four-Season Harvest". They live in Harborside, Maine where they grow organic vegetables and salad greens on a year-round basis.

[kaybee]

katchmoleen--i bet you could also grow pumpkin seeds for oil/source of fat. if the climate isnt warm eno8ugh for growing them, as its not usually here, ive heard you can grow them beautifully with a source of heat to warm the soil. that you somehow plant them with manure and comfrey underneath them so that as it decomposes and heats, it provides warmer soil for them to grow in. the NAKED SEEDED pumpkins are the ones you want.

[katchmoleen]

Oh I never thought of pumpkin seeds! We can grow those honkin' BIG pumpkins here due to looooong daylight hours in the summer. Pumpkins would be easier to harvest than sunflower seeds too, AND you can eat the pumpkin. Two for one.. Thanks for the idea!

[kaybee]

yeah get the NAKED SEEDED varieties. theres one called "Lady Godiva" lol and a handful of others. those ones have the greenish seeds in them like you buy in the HFS, and you dont have to shell them. unfortunately i went to experiment with them this year but the sluggies ate down ALL my pumkin, zucc and butternut plants before they could even get started :( BTW if you have slug problems, COPPER wire or copper piping gives them a shock if you surround yoru plants with them. you can even buy copper-impregnated collars to put around the plants.too bad i didnt...

[NaturalMama]

I'm considering this as well and I live in Canada, where it's snow and freezing almost half the year. I'm imagining storing food for the winter through possibly freezing some things and lacto-fermentation (ie., sauerkraut, lacto-fermented veggies are full of enzymes and good bacteria), and via "cellar storage". I also imagine sprouts in the winter are in order, plus you can grow greens indoors in the winter if you have a window facing the right direction. I've heard you can even grow tomatoes indoors, but I have to look into that more. A small, family-sized green-house is definately an idea worth investing in as well. Even with a diet of local, in season foods, you can still maintain a raw lifestyle with a variety of food choices.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Energy = Sugar, Fat, and Protein

Storage Cellar = Starchy foods (can't eat raw)

Leafy vegetables aren't a suitable sustenance food.

Sugar largely comes from fruit, which generally doesn't grow during the colder seasons.

The solution? Seeds and nuts. Fats / proteins combined with great storage, the most pure food you eat during winter that would be raw. Supplemented by the lesser foods.

Typically cold-weather cultures subsist on animals, starch, berries, and vegetables.

I guess the question would be. What would be the ideal diet, and how could you maximize the energy used vs. energy gained? How can we combine the greatest technological innovations with primitive efficiency? I would imagine that any raw foodist trying to transform the world would eventually have to consider this.

[NaturalMama]

Actually you don't have to store potatoes in a cellar. You can also store apples, pears, tomatoes, celery, all sorts of squash, carrots, etc. I have a book about how to do it exactly and have it last all winter long (depending on which item). Don't rememebr the exact title of the book, it's not in front of me. But I'm sure you could find it and other similar books on Amazon and other such places.

There's plenty of fruit that can be grown in Canada, maybe not as much as in say California and the tropics but still a large variety, and they can be stored for winter (cellar, frozen and lacto-fermentation). For example, cherries, apples, pears, certain kiwis, peaches, apricots, nectarines, plums, blueberries, strawberries, raspberries, blackberries and many other berries both wild and grown, and more. There are also fruits that can be grown and enjoyed mainly in summer, such as watermelons, etc. Sure, you may not be able to grow your own bananas and citrus in Canada, but there are plenty of other fruit that we can grow and store for the winter. Plus, there's nothing wrong with growing and storing what you can, and from time to time supplement with some tropical treats (ie., bananas and papaya). Still, you can still be 100% raw in Canada throughout the winter without buying tropical fruit. Raw doesn't necessarily equal eating tons of bananas every day, and some people like to buy as much locally as possible, it's more nutrient-dense, is not irradiated as it crosses the border (yes, even organic foods often go through irradiation as it crosses the border, especially if you are buying it from a large supermarket and they don't label it, they don't have to since it is done at a lower levels than the official definition of irradiated foods) and is less expensive (tropical fruit in the winter is more expensive. Right now you're looking at paying $8/lb for an organic papaya). The irradiation issue ALONE is making me want to shift to local, Canadian foods. Is is really organic anymore? Is it really a living food after being irradiated? Plus, ALOT of the tropical fruit is treated with chemicals so it can make the transport, even the organically grown ones (this is also the case for transport within the US, not just to Canada), and then there's the ethylene gas issue, who wants to eat bananas that were saturated with ethylene gas before we buy it after it gets here. Do you know it takes HOURS of enclosed treatment with ethylene gas? That can't be healthy! And then when we get produce from Mexico, hey it's cheaper so it's being offered more and more in mid to end of winter when California's supplies begin to go down (I'm in western Canada and in the winter alot of the produce comes from California). Mexican organic standards are lower, so is California's compared to Canada. The only reason I know this is because I'm a part of an organic food co-op in my area and the main distributor sent out a notice saying that soon they will require the imported organic produce from California to meet Canadian organic standars and explained some things that the farmers do to make the produce last longer and grow bigger that still meets the US organic certifications but not the Canadian organic certifications, so they are giving the farms a year (I think) to switch to Canadian standars (for produce imported to Canada). Anyway, there's alot of things to consider and alot of reasons people are thinking of going local. I noticed people are thinking about this more and more in my area, even those who do not normally eat all organic foods. And it is possible that most (if not all; it might be nice to have a treat once in awhile) of our diet can be local and raw year round even in Canada. It takes a lot of thought, planning and work, but it'd be the same in Northern US too. BTW, we can also grow some nuts in Canada (such as Hazelnuts) and seeds and we can harvest seaweed from the ocean (for example dules, sooooo yummy!). There's more too! You just have to know about it. Or you could even live in a warmer climate during the winter if you wanted and are able to, then you could have all sorts of tropical fruit in the winter, but that's not possible for most people.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Wow, I've never heard of people storing that many types of succulent fruit in a cellar. A lot of the fruits I buy/forage don't last that long in the fridge, I would love to learn how people make it happen (researching it right now ^^).

I've never really frozen fruits except for berries cuz I'm always worried about "life-force" loss by freezing. How does one justify freezing but not heating?

That's awsome that you promote local food. In my mind understand the nature of food in general is just as important as being a raw foodist. I really wish more raw foodists would take the step to consider the bigger pictuer, but I guess that's not what this forum is about.

[RawTrucker]

Check out Mother Earth News magazine. They have plans for small DIY greenhouses, articles on building solar water heaters, cold frames, you name it. I have been a reader since the early '80s.

Jake

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Cold frame, grey water systems, greenhouses, mulching, drying, fermenting, solar water, food forests. I'm pretty familiar with these concepts. But there is still a missing connection between the raw food diet and a hollistic food system, and then in relation to the societal system.

[cbowden]

Tsurugi Oni - I, for one, want to encourage you to keep pushing the envelope and asking the right questions. If this is not the forum for it then perhaps start one yourself?

I believe that becoming a raw foodist is usually a higher level on a journey for some of us. Enlightenment comes when you are exposed to some knowledge/information you are ready to hear. For some, we become vegetarians when we learn about the inhumane treatment of animals. With even more information we may become vegans, then raw.

I, too, am concerned about the impact a raw food diet has on the world. Bananas year round? So yes, I get it, but my journey is just beginning. I so admire those of you who are further along the path. Those that live as close to the land and eat as locally as possible.

Everyone is at a different place in their journey. Only by being exposed to other ideas can we begin to grow and move further along.

So, keep asking the questions. Some of us are ready to hear what you are saying.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Thank you chowden. Unfortunately I don't think this forum is the right spot to talk about this stuff at, or any other forum like this. Pretty much the only places where I can get real info from are from homesteading forums or homesteaders. But if you (or anyone else) has anything to say I'd love to hear it. Maybe I'm the only one here who's actually concerned about this stuff.

[green jeanie]

this forum is the PERFECT place for this discussion. please don't stop your pursuit.

i found a cool sounding technique of waxing the tips of fruit stems to preserve them. it is a french technique and it is common for them to have pears that are "vintage " lasting up to 3-4 years. looks simple and cool


as for me i am officially out of blueberries, peaches and nectarines. still have plums in the freezer some rosehips and a few containers of applesauce

next year: more berries!! and a heartier fall garden!

don't give up. and i am not sure where i would fall on the freezing vs. cargo-ed in regard to life force. in my experience my frozen stuff seems just fine.

best. gj

[Tsurugi_Oni]

I dont' believe it is honestly, I've tried. It's a great place to discuss diet, but other than that people are too unattached and idealistic to the social aspects of food. Most demonize anything related to animals or cooked. They're nutritionists, but they're not farmers and social engineers. Plus the whole time I've been here I don't think I've seen any real threads about any of this stuff. Shows that it's not a main focus here.

I've never really considered freezing produce until this year (always worried about quality reduction) , but I'm definately going to have to try next spring. Mulberries, blackberries, wild strawberries, blueberries, and insane amount of ramps (I'm going to get like 100lbs worth, seriously), apples, grapes (gallons of fresh pressed grape juice, maybe wine ^^). MmmMmmmmm.........

[snoops]

I read your posts in that other thread with interest. I totally agreed with you and even started writing a post but it got lost and I had to run and I never got back to it.

I think you struck a sore note with some of the 100% raw fooders. Eating pineapple, coconuts, mango, avocado and so on is totally unsustainable for anyone living north of oh say central America!!! Well maybe not avocado but for me in Calgary it may have well been grown in Central America...

Yeah how great is that - I can eat all those things grown and harvested by people not making a living wage. And I am doing it but I DO recognize the unfairness, the unsustainability of it.

I'm not sure what the answer is for me. I would love to move south where these thing grow but cannot, for the moment at least. But even when I can...what if I become a snowbird. Lucky me to be able to afford it. What is my carbon footprint driving/flying north and south every year.

I believe for health that I should eat tons of leafy greens. I could not do that 8 months of the year here... My ground is under snow 5-6 months a year. Should I sacrifice my health? Will sprouts sustain me?

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know I enjoyed your thoughts in that other thread - don't even know what it was called now...

[cbowden]

Snoops, thank you for your support as well. I think you said it better than I.

I'm seriously considering growing micro-greens and baby lettuces in a south facing window. Need to get some metal shelving first. The only other place with a south facing window is right where the kitties sunbathe......they would LOVE a flat of greens growing right there! LOL

With the flats I hope to grow some sunflower and pea sprouts as well.

Thanks Tsurugi Oni for pushing me further down the path.....

[snoops]

My only south facing window is my bedroom. It has tons of sun and I have a HUGE christmas cactus growing there now and he is getting fried. Maybe I need to move him to a better spot and plants some greens in my bedroom. Hmmm. See without this thread I never would have thought of that. Can I do it? Is strong sun for only 4-5 hours a day good enough? Anyone know. I could always set up a grow light system. I used to have a hibiscus growing here under a grow light!

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Those 100%'ers kill me, and the ethical raw foodists. But yah, Pissenlit made a brilliant point which is basically what I was trying to say. I mean it's pretty much pointless to debate, because #1 the whole forum is the religion of Alissa's book (I'm not bashing it, but its the truth).

Honestly in my quest for truth this forum has turned me off a lot. Not that I don't believe that eating raw foods ain't a healthy way to go, but that there is no room to evolve past the abstract idea of "raw" vegan. As soon as someone mentions goats milk, many point at the "Traitor/ Weak-Willed Person". Maybe the person found that they could sip a "non-perfect" food and get micronutrients from it, instead of having a long chain of 1000 workers to get you your perfect laboratory refined tablet. But instead of understanding , they say "be your own leader, they faulted!!!" and push all that gained knowledge aside, and keep on trekkin the same path. And people want to spout nonsense to me like "eat lichen for nutrition", "no animal will ever die because of me", and other things like this. Ughh...

I'm really just ranting, not in anger, but in my recent dissappointment for what I *hoped* this forum might be.

If you've ever watched Kevin and Gianni's "Renegade Health Show", they are big inspirations of mine. They don't dogmatize anything, not even meat eating. They even strike a balance between some cooked carbs and mostly raw, because they understand the balance, not 100% is key. I feel like that's lost here.

[Tsurugi_Oni]

I'm glad you both are thinkin about ur food. That's the type fo stuff that makes me smile =D.

[green jeanie]

did you ever consider that complete obsession with what one eats MAY (NOT ALWAYS) but may sometimes be simple an extension of obsession with SELF

not exactly a virtuous or sustainable position..........

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Why would you even say that? You dont' even know me, my history, or my truest aspirations.

Please diagnose my personality by these little insignificant blurbs I leave on these forums. You obviously said what you did for a reason, so what puzzle pieces have you linked together about Tsurugi_Oni?

[green jeanie]

oh my love, i was not talking about you :D:D

i was commenting on the general conversation that some raw fooders don't seem to care at all about the implications of their diet choices on the environment

sorry for the confusion!!

[Tsurugi_Oni]

Oh............ :D

That wouldn't be very nice if that was directed towards me =(! Glad you cleared that up for me lol.

[green jeanie]

it's actually not that nice to say at all :o

everyone is where they are at and i have to have patience on that. but this conversation seems so logical that resistance to it makes me question motive

but even though i am raw my sh** can stink too :eek: so no hating

have an awesome journey