enamel erosion?

[rawnutt]

Hi everyone!
I accidentally stumbled accross this enamal erosion topic recently, I found myself quite lucky as I have been raw for about 3 months now and probably have had more citrus/high acid fruits in 3 months then in my whole S.A.D lifetime. I thought I would bring this topic up for all the rookie amateur beginner raw people out there who are brand new to this game.
Also I do encourage people to read more than one article in order to make your own opinion on general things you might not be sure about in life/any subject. Don't limit yourself to one source of info, read 10 if you really have to and then let your common sense/logic decide for you, if you have one of course, ;)

Problem:
Incorporating highly acidic fruits (lemon/oranges feel free to make a list) to your fruit intake increases enamel erosion.
note: enamel erosion can also be caused by eating disorders.
There are multiple solutions to this:

solutions I have read from various sources:

- use straw to reduce contact and time it stays in mouth/gum/teeth
- eliminate/reduce high acid fruits from diet.
- rinsing mouth right after high acid fruit intake and brush teeth (not straight away but 30-60min after intake).
and other sources state to brush teeth right after. Which one is it going to be?

My question is if I still choose to add citrus fruits to my Green Smoothies in the morning how am I suppose to chew my breakfast? :D There's always gotta be a problem.

Having read few books and articles on the raw food diet, I am quite shocked that the majority of them have not mentioned the dangers of eating large amounts of citrus fruits over many years.

I was quite an unattentive person whilst on SAD so I may not have noticed the warning signs. learning everyday >

[rawstrength]

A lot of longterm raw foodists develop teeth problems. I'm glad that you're being aware of your teeth.

[klomasius]

There are many opinions on the teeth situation with regards to raw food, in particular high acid fruits.

I personally am quite convinced that it's not the high acids of the fruit and other foods per se, but the lack of greens in a diet that does the most damage.

Like bones, teeth health is a dynamic situation, and like bones, mineral content in the foods we eat have a significant impact on teeth health. Greens are one of the best sources of the range of minerals required for good teeth health.

I eat a lot of high acid fruits including a lot of citrus, but I also eat a large amount of greens. I keep a close eye on the health and appearance of my teeth (you might say it's an obsession) and find that they are at their whitest and most 'solid' when I consume lots of greens on a regular basis. For me it doesn't seem to have an impact how much acid fruit I eat.

If I skip out on the greens for weeks on end, I can find that my teeth get a little bit less healthy. Overall my teeth are in pretty good health though.

I think we often tend to concentrate more on what's going ON our teeth rather than what's going IN them, which I think in the end, like the rest of our bodies, is more important.

[rawnutt]

There are many opinions on the teeth situation with regards to raw food, in particular high acid fruits.

I personally am quite convinced that it's not the high acids of the fruit and other foods per se, but the lack of greens in a diet that does the most damage.

Like bones, teeth health is a dynamic situation, and like bones, mineral content in the foods we eat have a significant impact on teeth health. Greens are one of the best sources of the range of minerals required for good teeth health.

I eat a lot of high acid fruits including a lot of citrus, but I also eat a large amount of greens. I keep a close eye on the health and appearance of my teeth (you might say it's an obsession) and find that they are at their whitest and most 'solid' when I consume lots of greens on a regular basis. For me it doesn't seem to have an impact how much acid fruit I eat.

If I skip out on the greens for weeks on end, I can find that my teeth get a little bit less healthy. Overall my teeth are in pretty good health though.

I think we often tend to concentrate more on what's going ON our teeth rather than what's going IN them, which I think in the end, like the rest of our bodies, is more important.

Interesting point about the greens. Do you chew your Green Smoothies or do you down it fast?

[klomasius]

Chewing is best, but I'm generally drinking it slowly and forgetting to chew. :)

I chew a lot of green salads though, I believe chewing is an important part of teeth health too. Like weight bearing exercise is important for bone health.

[spicyfull]

Interesting......Thanks for Sharing.

[Johnny B]

One interesting thing I've read is to not brush your teeth right after you eat. It's actually more detrimental for your enamel to do so. Supposedly, waiting an hour or so is better... or better yet brush before you eat.

[RawBella]

One interesting thing I've read is to not brush your teeth right after you eat. It's actually more detrimental for your enamel to do so. Supposedly, waiting an hour or so is better... or better yet brush before you eat.

I've read the same thing Johnny. When you eat acidic foods it softens the tooth enamal and brushing immediately after takes the enamal right off. Saliva hardens the enamal back up in about an hour.

[rawmiss]

A lot of longterm raw foodists develop teeth problems. I'm glad that you're being aware of your teeth.

A lot of longterm SAD foodists develop teeth problems too. ;)

[freshlight]

A lot of longterm raw foodists develop teeth problems. I'm glad that you're being aware of your teeth.

the ones that are not 100% raw yes. Otherwise I don't see any "danger" in a balanced raw lifestyle.

I started having some problems when my lemon intake was like 4-5 lemons a day! Luckily, I noticed the mistake just in time and could heal it with LOTS of greens.

Otherwise,- enjoy your citrus fruits on a daily basis if that's what you like.

[rawrawks]

I have seen many "100 percenters" have teeth challenges. it is an issue in the raw community that hadnt been addressed for quite a while...I am sooo happy it is now.

[rawnutt]

found these interesting links;

http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/health-fitness/30826-why-raw-foodists-have-such-bad-teeth-what-do-about.html

http://www.raw-food-health.net/CareForTeeth.html

:cool:

[freshlight]

I have seen many "100 percenters" have teeth challenges. it is an issue in the raw community that hadnt been addressed for quite a while...I am sooo happy it is now.

it can not happen when you are raw imo....those folks did have a lot of probs pre raw....well, the ones I met did.

[klomasius]

I think it can happen on raw, even if you don't have previous teeth problems.

When I first started and I wasn't eating a lot of greens, the tops of my teeth went kind of translucent and I had teeth sensitivity problems.

I think we need to acknowledge that we can have teeth problems on raw (as well sad) so we can address the situation and talk about effective ways to combat it.

[Green_Woman]

the health and appearance of my teeth (you might say it's an obsession) and find that they are at their whitest and most 'solid' when I consume lots of greens on a regular basis.


This!

When I'm eating high-Greens (at times, my diet will be 60% or more GREEN SMOOTHIES depending on my needs at the time...) I have NONE of the sensitivity, aching, or discoloration that I used to deal with CONSTANTLY when I was eating SAD foods... :)

In fact, I brush my teeth VERY LITTLE when eating RAW. I find that they look better, are stronger, and hurt less if I'm not brushing them constantly, but I AM chowing down on my Greens!

For the record, I had LOTS of teeth issues when eating SAD... I have vastly LESS when eating RAW. And I love my citrus. :D

Which reminds me... I need to start drinking GS's daily again. I've been off them for a week and I've also had a headache for a week. For me, there's always a connection between overall wellness and GREENS.

Anyone wanna do a GS Challenge with me? :D Nothing like a little fun to get the good habits rolling again...

[DopeRawAbundance]

You can definitely have teeth problems on raw, I made a delicious smoothie with watermelon, lemons, and limes (tasted like bubblegum); unfortunately my teeth hurt for days. Stuff your mouth full of greens/grass and chew them for a good 30 minutes for teethstrengthening5k. Of course with grass you're going to wanna spit it out when your session is over.

[DopeRawAbundance]

In fact, I brush my teeth VERY LITTLE when eating RAW. I find that they look better, are stronger, and hurt less if I'm not brushing them constantly, but I AM chowing down on my Greens!

I would like to point out that I only brush once a day (in the morning) and one time I "remembered" to do it before bed and it was actually uncomfortable on my teeth. Now there could've been other factors involved, but its something that stuck with me/something to consider.

[Mindy Sue]

I have been raw for 17 months now. I have noticed a difference in my teeth. :( Five days a week I drink a green smoothie with 1/2 a lemon for breakfast. I visit my dentist every 6 months for a routine cleaning and he checks the enamel - he said it looks fine, but something is going on. My teeth are extremely sensitive to cold air and they never were before. Maybe I will try using a straw. :rolleyes:

[NaturalMama]

I'm finding the same thing for me, the key to healthy teeth are greens! I've had alot of teeth issues and whn going 100% raw it worsened incredibly (as per my dentist and my own teeth sensitivity and pain) until I increased the greens dramatically. Most of my diet is greens. Very quickly my teeth stopped hurting and feel harder. I do 2 green smoothies a day plus a blended salad. I eat a few other things too but alot of my diet are greens. It's also helped me maintain my weight (I struggled my whole life to maintain a healthy weight, I was unhealthily skinny), and really makes a difference in my overall health. The only warning is, I never had a healing crisis until I started doing large amounts of greens, so be prepared for a good healing and cleansing, as well as the nourishing and strengthening.

[Green_Woman]

Mindy - Instead of worrying about the 1/2 a lemon, why not start drinking your Green Smoothies EVERY day of the week? And start eating big, leafy green salads for dinner... chew, chew, CHEW those greens! :D

[Krayton]

Hi everyone!
I accidentally stumbled accross this enamal erosion topic recently, I found myself quite lucky as I have been raw for about 3 months now and probably have had more citrus/high acid fruits in 3 months then in my whole S.A.D lifetime. I thought I would bring this topic up for all the rookie amateur beginner raw people out there who are brand new to this game.
Also I do encourage people to read more than one article in order to make your own opinion on general things you might not be sure about in life/any subject. Don't limit yourself to one source of info, read 10 if you really have to and then let your common sense/logic decide for you, if you have one of course, ;)

Problem:
Incorporating highly acidic fruits (lemon/oranges feel free to make a list) to your fruit intake increases enamel erosion.
note: enamel erosion can also be caused by eating disorders.
There are multiple solutions to this:

solutions I have read from various sources:

- use straw to reduce contact and time it stays in mouth/gum/teeth
- eliminate/reduce high acid fruits from diet.
- rinsing mouth right after high acid fruit intake and brush teeth (not straight away but 30-60min after intake).
and other sources state to brush teeth right after. Which one is it going to be?

My question is if I still choose to add citrus fruits to my Green Smoothies in the morning how am I suppose to chew my breakfast? :D There's always gotta be a problem.

Having read few books and articles on the raw food diet, I am quite shocked that the majority of them have not mentioned the dangers of eating large amounts of citrus fruits over many years.

I was quite an unattentive person whilst on SAD so I may not have noticed the warning signs. learning everyday >

I think that there is some basis for the concern. See this small German study of raw food vegans against a control

http://http://content.karger.com/produktedb/produkte.asp?typ=fulltext&file=cre33074

The aim of the study was to investigate the frequency and severity of dental erosions and its association with nutritional and oral hygiene factors in subjects living on a raw food diet. As part of a larger dietary study 130 subjects whose ingestion of raw food was more than 95% of the total food intake were examined. The median duration of the diet was 39 (minimum 17, maximum 418) months. Before the clinical examination, the participants answered questionnaires and recorded their food intake during a 7-day period. Dental erosions were registered using study models. As a control 76 sex- and age-matched patients from our clinic were randomly selected. The raw food diet records showed the median daily frequency of ingesting citrus fruit to be 4.8 (minimum 0.5, maximum 16.1). The median intake of fruit was 62% (minimum 25%, maximum 96%) of the total, corresponding to an average consumption of 9.5 kg of fruit (minimum 1.5, maximum 23.7) per week. Compared to the control group subjects living on a raw food diet had significantly (p0.001) more dental erosions. Only 2.3% of the raw food group (13.2% of the controls) had no erosive defects, whereas 37.2% had at least one tooth with a moderate erosion (55.2% of the controls) and 60.5% had at least one tooth with a severe erosion (31.6% of the controls). Within the raw food group no significant correlation was found between nutrition or oral health data and the prevalence of erosions. Nevertheless, the results showed that a raw food diet bears an increased risk of dental erosion compared to conventional nutrition.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every study has limits. And this one has no reference to dental hygene habits. How often do these folks floss and brush? It may have been natural to lose teeth. Who knows. What we do know is that tooth loss is preventable and I think that sloppy small studies like the one above do more harm than good. So why do you provide them? I'm getting to that. Others on this thread have comments on the presence or absence of greens. My observation is that the authors of this study unforgiveably do not include records of dental hygeine habits among the the subjects. Jeez, if more brushed and flossed among the controls than the experimental group, then there is your design flaw of the study. In response to my self-generated critic above. I provided the study because at some point many of us will hear or come in contact with studies of this type. Without a critical eye (this study is small, over a limited duration)... 3 months, people can get discouraged or become afraid when they weren't. I agree dental health is an issue for raw food vegans. but guess what, it's an issue for SAD folks too. And when there is data among raw fooders following a 100 percent raw vegan diet with sound dental hygeine habits that show increased dental carries or tooth enamel weakness relative to comparably-situated bullets, I will sweat it. Until then, this study and others like them are strawmen. ymmw.

Paul

[Mindy Sue]

Mindy - Instead of worrying about the 1/2 a lemon, why not start drinking your Green Smoothies EVERY day of the week? And start eating big, leafy green salads for dinner... chew, chew, CHEW those greens! :D



I do eat big, leafy green salads for dinner and chew, chew chew. I have been raw for 17 months and I'm almost positive it is the 1/2 a lemon a day that is causing my teeth to be sensitive.

[Mindy Sue]

I also brush 2x a day AND floss EVERY SINGLE NIGHT and have for years

[Krayton]

I also brush 2x a day AND floss EVERY SINGLE NIGHT and have for years

thanks Mindy Sue! most of us understand that the mouth is is the dirtiest place on us and needs serious attention, breakfast, lunch and dinner.

really, brush and floss and greens, is there really an issue?

[Green_Woman]

most of us understand that the mouth is is the dirtiest place on us.

Is it? I thought that was the other end of us. :D :D

Enamel health/strength/sensitivity seems to be individual, from what I have observed/experienced.

My older brother, for instance, did not brush his teeth regularly as a child (once a week, if even) and was often told by out family dentist how perfect and healthy his teeth are. :)

I brushed my teeth 2-3x's daily as a child and always had sensitive, aching teeth, bleeding gums, cavities out the whazoooo, and all kinds of other issues! The family dentist told ME, "Martine, you need a new mouth!!!"

In fact, only when I'm 100% RAW and eating LOTS of greens am I pain-free where my teeth are concerned! It's great fun.

My fiance, on the other hand, can't eat citrus or any sugary fruit without getting tingling teeth! He keeps a pack of sugar-free gum in his back pocket at all times because chewing on it relieves the pain for him...

Krayton: I don't eat breakfast, lunch, or dinner... I graze all day. :D Moooooooooo.... so if I were to brush after every meal, I'd be brushing a dozen times a day. The Toothpaste Company would have to start paying me a salary!!!

[Krayton]

Is it? I thought that was the other end of us. :D :D

Enamel health/strength/sensitivity seems to be individual, from what I have observed/experienced.

My older brother, for instance, did not brush his teeth regularly as a child (once a week, if even) and was often told by out family dentist how perfect and healthy his teeth are. :)

I brushed my teeth 2-3x's daily as a child and always had sensitive, aching teeth, bleeding gums, cavities out the whazoooo, and all kinds of other issues! The family dentist told ME, "Martine, you need a new mouth!!!"

In fact, only when I'm 100% RAW and eating LOTS of greens am I pain-free where my teeth are concerned! It's great fun.

My fiance, on the other hand, can't eat citrus or any sugary fruit without getting tingling teeth! He keeps a pack of sugar-free gum in his back pocket at all times because chewing on it relieves the pain for him...

Krayton: I don't eat breakfast, lunch, or dinner... I graze all day. :D Moooooooooo.... so if I were to brush after every meal, I'd be brushing a dozen times a day. The Toothpaste Company would have to start paying me a salary!!!

You think that dental hygeine is person specific? Like bacteria helps or hurts by the mouth? I hope you are just joking. That said the issue overall is not a joke.

[Krayton]

I
Krayton: I don't eat breakfast, lunch, or dinner... I graze all day. :D Moooooooooo.... so if I were to brush after every meal, I'd be brushing a dozen times a day. The Toothpaste Company would have to start paying me a salary!!!

Nobody ever said you had to brush after every meal, though it wouldn't hurt. Glass of water is better than nothing.

[freelee]

I wrote a detailed article on teeth and the raw lifestyle here (http://sweetjuicyfreelee.com/2009/11/04/does-fruit-rot-your-teeth/) that may assist. I haven't been to the dentist for about 10years, no teeth problems...here is a pic of my choppers :)

Lovefreelee

http://fruit4free.wordpress.com/files/2009/11/photo-on-2009-11-04-at-11-36.jpg

[Green_Woman]

You think that dental hygeine is person specific? Like bacteria helps or hurts by the mouth?

Your question is a little unclear... what do you mean by "like bacteria helps or hurts by the mouth?" :)

And no, I was not kidding, except for the last line about the toothpaste companies owing me a salary. :D

My teeth react to the SAME FOODS differently than my fiance's teeth react or my brother's teeth react. It's pretty straightforward, I think.

I choose to not panic over any one aspect of my health anymore... after many years of paying many medical bills, I choose to focus on my overall wellness, to seek healing in every cell, and to allow my body to take this journey, supplying it with all the fruit, veggies, GREENS GREENS GREENS, nuts and oils ;) that it needs and wants to heal.

I have seen altogether too many mouths of NON-raw eaters that are just horrendous, and I can honestly say the teeth of the Rawbies that I know (not RFT'ers, but folks I know in person) are VASTLY healthier than our SAD eating friends.

I am so happy to have found RAW!!!

[freelee]

I have seen altogether too many mouths of NON-raw eaters that are just horrendous, and I can honestly say the teeth of the Rawbies that I know (not RFT'ers, but folks I know in person) are VASTLY healthier than our SAD eating friends.

- this has been my experience also as long as its not raw meat! :(

[klomasius]

Just to clarify,

'dirty' and 'full of bacteria' can mean completely different things.

If bacteria in general were the single classification of 'dirtiness' then our stomachs would be the dirtiest place on/in our bodies.

There are helpful bacteria, harmful bacteria and then there are bacteria that are completely harmless.

In the oral cavity, it's the bacteria that cause lots of localised acidity on the tooth enamel that are the main concern, however, even bacteria may not be the main culprit as many native peoples who eat naturally and don't brush their teeth seem to do very well teeth health wise.

This is probably too complex a thought to really elucidate here though.

[Green_Woman]

This is probably too complex a thought to really elucidate here though.

You will find that just because some of us don't embrace EVERY new "discovery" with open arms and enthusiasm the first go-around, does not mean we are not scientific or well-researched in our approach to nutrition...

I hope I misunderstood your intent with that statement. If I didn't, well... I won't say what I think of that. ;)

If I did misunderstand, then please... elucidate and enlighten us. :) :)

[rawlight]

Does coating on your tongue have anything to do with bacteria and teeth enamel? When I am high raw as I am now, my tongue looks so healthy: not coating and it's pink, pink, pink! My teeth are also witer and seem stronger. Am I imagining that or could it be reality?

[klomasius]

Green Woman, you completely misunderstood me and I'm baffled as to why you would think such a statement would be condescending.


Rawlight, tongue coating is very much linked to oral health, generally the pinker and less coated the tongue the healthier overall the individual is. Tongue appearance is on of the easily measurable key health indicators that we can do regular checks on (for overall health, other indicators are whites of eyes, appearance and smell of stool and urine, state of skin, etc.)

Teeth and oral health is such a complex and not completely understood dynamic, but visual appearance of tongue, teeth and gums can go a long way to helping us determine our oral health. Because no one person or philosophy has a complete handle on oral health, it's up to us to learn to interpret indicators such as appearance, sensitivity, etc. in order to learn how our teeth react to individual foods and care regimes.

[anniez]

Have you heard of oil pulling? First thing in the morning you swish a Tbsp of either sesame or safflower oil around in your mouth for 20 minutes. Then, spit it out and brush. After 5 months of doing this I went in for my dental cleaning and the hygienist was amazed at the state of my teeth and gums. The cleaning took very little time. When the dentist came in to check my teeth, he, too, was, surprised at how much better they were. My hubby, who has terrible gum problems, was so impressed that he started it, too. His next check-up was the same as mine. We are now real believers in this!

Annie

[klomasius]

Thanka anniez, I've heard a lot of good things about oil pulling.

I have done it but never consistently over that long a period, I'll be buying some more sesame oil on Wednesday so will take up the daily challenge. :)

[Green_Woman]

Green Woman, you completely misunderstood me

Oh, good! :D