Liver Cleanse Can Kill You!

[VeGenesis]

My Name Percy. I Lan the Vegenesist wife.

The last week lan is fight for his life because he do the liver cleanse in this website with no warning. So I warn others about this.

Sorry my English no so good, I speak three other languages better.

If you had any of these diseases, you should carefully think again about a liver cleanse like this.


Celiac
Leaky Gut Syndrome (increased intestinal permeability)
Heart Diseases
Diabetes
Chronic Hepatitis B
Chronic Hepatitis C


Lan was diagnosed with 1-4. 5 & 6 were added by knowledgeable raw food sources we discover while trying to save lan.

Lan start this liver cleaning, and then by a miracle all problems end and we suddenly got our baby girl home for good, 1 day before liver cleaning end. You should seen them papa and baby girl -she is 3 now - together. He even take her to mall and buy a snoopy dress. They both have same birthday, both have same name, both have love to snoopy dog. All day she not let go of papa hand one time. She run to him and stick like a glue.

You know, at the orphanage lan help build for babies abandon in park trash cans lan take good care of many babies

but day baby girl was born, lan spend his hole birthday at laying in clinic for birthing. Lan first to hold baby girl, first to feed her, give her his own name in girl type because she is on his birthday. Now together one whole day. At day end I ask lan if he want to finish liver cleaning and he says yes, he do this to be healthy for baby girl and live long time even he a little sick one day.

Next day, ep salt make him not feel well. he said normal. Just hours after oil grape fruit juice he start LBM diarrhea continue a hole day, no stop LBM a hole day. 12 hours it become emergency. Finally stop and fluid tube bring color again at face.

Then one day and Angina oain in both neck and chest, can't breath. baby girl wants papa but can't raise head from pillow. Eyes dilate. Lan cant think. Bp shoot to 181/126 pulse to 148 a minute. Doctora says lan dying needs emergency to bypass heart problem operation. Lan refuse and doctora says lan will die. "LAN WIL DIE!" Doctora says "Patay" in our language - that means dead like when you bury at grave. I so scared ask everyone to pray lan.

Dr Mike give lan 3 medicine he had years before. no change he so sick. Lan refuse insulin. Lan so hot but nearly out of mind and stare to roof. He want Vit A&D treatment at Kefir Dom web. Doctora says we killing him but doc mike approve lan request. I look web 50000 A - 2000 D. In minutes later lan sweats for 14 hours, fever cracks too. Thanks Dom - blood sweetness start drop after A+D. BP and Puls falling. Doc mike ask lan how he gets so smart. Lan says because he stupid to try stupid ideas on self. First smile in one week since baby girl comes home.

Lan ask doc no more meds, agree no meds if lan has lower than bp 150/100 and puls 70 asleep and blood less sweet than 130.

Liver cleaning near kill lan.

Thanks Kefir Dom, Doc Mike, Internet Doc Doug with many tips like the carrot juice and love, & problems of oil & salts to leaky gut and celiac. Lan still with us! He home in bed, puls 66 now (before liver cleaning sleeping puls was 52). Still very bad head aches and still so weak.

Lan said he was right before, that extracts like oil and salts are not really raw foods in his Vegenesis Lifestyle, they poison to him. Others maybe "if they make oil with bare hands" but no for the celiac or diabetes or leak in the gut.

This morning lan smile and says he is blessed because his body really hates poison and he can help so many get well. He spend all his strength today to play A-B-C flash cards with baby girl. I go to CR bathroom and cry. Please if you have these diseases dont do this to the people you love. Lan only do this for us without even one warn.

Thanks also to natural doc Chel. I readed the liver cleaning slow to lan and he says this will even meat Dr Dougs 80-10-10, only 1 spoon oil a day. Lan really liked the no oil variation because it all 100% raw hole food. Dr. Doug also recommend many of this to help lan recover like the carrot and grandma smith green apples. Lan says better to heal the body slowly than attack with "shock and awe" liver cleaning.

Thanks to Dom for info on healing Irritable Bowel Disease [IBD], Irritable Bowel Syndrome [IBS], Ulcerative Colitis [UC] and Crohn's Disease [CD] (http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/IBD/index.htm) Lan had IBS due from Celiac. Doc suggest lan maybe Crohn's terminal ileum but cant see to it from colonostopy because of many "obese folds" in his bowel. Risk to high to push that far. Lan don't eat cooked food, but water kefir-grains info may be adapted to raw vegan equals. Lan says eating extra kefir grains alone may solve his 9 years of pain in right tummy.

Lan sleeps now to get well now.

Thank you.

[snoops]

I was wondering where Lan was. Healing thoughts are going out to him from me. Please tell him we wish him a speedy recovery and return to Raw Food Talk.

[rawrawks]

We missed him here.I hope he feels better. Thank you for letting us know. He will be in our thoughts!

[katchmoleen]

Oh NO! I am so sorry to hear this! I have done the liver flush many times with no problems, in spite of being celiac and leaky gut, so I suspect there was more to it than that. I am so sorry he had to go through this! sound like he got a horrible infection of some type with the fever so high.

I am glad he is still with us and still able to love that baby girl. He was so excited that she was coming home to you.

Many prayers for healing coming your way from me.

[Veganforlife]

Wow! I hope heals quickly!

[margoss]

glad he was improving. I know this was hard for both of you.

[RawKnitster]

Thank you for letting everyone know what has happened. Best wishes to both you and Lan. May he have a speedy recovery.

[DebB]

I also wish Lan all the best! *Ü*

[Shine]

I was thinking about him yesterday, that he hadn't posted in some time. I send healing thoughts your way. My best to all of you.

[rawrawks]

I have to say that it might be some sort of danger for a person with major illness to do a liver cleanse. Although I have seen many very ill also reccomended to do this. Helping the liver to do its job is a very profound protocol one can do for their health.

I have never heard of anyone having any kind of problem and ones who are practitioners in this field, guiding people through this, have also never had anyone have any pain even or ever go to the hospital.

I guess I look at it this way. If every gallbladder that has been traumatically removed from its comfy spot in the body, was assisted by flushing the liver (because the stones are made there),this avoiding surgery, thats a whole lotta saving. Saving from trauma of surgery, saving the gall bladder (which is there for a reason) and saving good health!

I will do one again very soon. I have done five and have had amazing results!

one more tiny thought...of all the things people put through their liver..cokes, pepsi, sad food of every kind, alcohol, toxins n poisins from every direction....I guess a bit of olive oil and salt water cant hurt huh?

[Green_Woman]

Sounds like although it was very painful and frightening, Lan believes he did the right thing for his body! What an amazing man (and you are an amazing wife!!!)

Strength and healing thoughts to both of you!

[Mary Kay]

I don't quite understand the entire story, but do want to thank the original poster for sharing.

And Katchmoleen, thank you also for lettung us know that you were not so adversely affected. This means a lot.

I've done a couple of these cleanses ---with the olive oil grapefruit juice and epsom salt....I did two back to back and got no stones.....Sigh.

I don't have any of the problems mentioned in the post though, either.

Mary Kay

[VeGenesis]

Hi everyone!

It's noon here, just woke up, and my Honeybun rolled my computer into next to my bed.

Pulse is still 66, that is good for now! It may take a few months to drop to 52 like before. I'll need to be running in a lower gear for a while though.

Thank you all for your love and concern. It was really heart warm to read your posts.

Let me start by saying what I and many others here say - listen to your body! YOUR body. So I am going to talk a little about mine!

I have been blessed with a body that reacts to even the slightest "off center" degree. I really mean blessed too. Where I live there are 4 million people dying of diabetes and cannot even afford the SAD treatments. I can empathize. My experience has already started to help dozens of people. I am hoping that tens of thousands more will be helped.

Likewise I know that no two people are alike. This site has many people that simply want to lose weight and look better in their own eyes in the mirror. There is NOTHING wrong with that. Looking better and being more healthy is a good goal! To a less degree there are people looking to improve their health, or recovering from something most will never know. Other sites I have visited included Dr. Doug whose focus is mainly sports. There are others who target one specific illness also, diabetes or breast cancer or like that. And some that really should not be labeled raw at all. Maybe part raw. (Yet virtually every medicine we swallow breaks our 100% raw cycle!).

For me that focus is more on regaining health and letting that health drive away illnesses. I think is is no accident that people here are mainly looking for the same - for economic reasons. That said...

First, to date, I have Never had a problem with my liver or gallbladder. Praise the Lord for that! Not even during this cleanse did I experience anything like that. The people in my family with liver problems also drank more than a fish!

I also do believe that some kinds of cleanses are good for the body. EVERY-body! The very design of our body is with cleansing in mind. Every ancient text I have ever read deals at some point with cleansing. I believed that before and I still believe it now.

I do believe the olive oil, grapefruit juice and Epsom salt flush was not good for ME. Others may be able to tolerate it, but my mind calls into question anything put into the mouth that must be "tolerated." The main question for me is the harshness of this cleanse. Virtually every version I have read talks at some point of nausea, felling sick, diarrhea or vomiting that some people have.

Alissa's concept allows for extracted ingredients like olive oil and coconut oil. For optimum health reasons I cannot suggest making oneself sick to any degree in order to get well (sorry if that sounds a lot like chemo!). Almost everyone speaks to some degree of getting sick. We usually chalk it up to "detox". For me, it now borders on the concept of most medicine.

I love Epsom salt. I have used it since childhood for soaking my feet. But it really never crossed my mind to drink even one spoonful. Likewise, I have in times past consumed oil, but to drink a half cup of it has not naturally ever come to my mind - other than as a medical treatment.

In fairness, I lived for more than a year without extracted oils. My health improved. I personally will be heading back in that direction.

Likewise, there are numerous other reports on the Internet about people having problems - some serious - about this liver flush. Maybe not on this site as Alissa herself has posted the information. And honestly I do not wish to argue the point on this site, but to merely report my experience.

Furthermore, there ARE a number of other liver / gallbladder cleanse protocols available on the Internet. These focus more on dissolving stones rather that the harshness of forcing them out by overloading the system. This takes longer to dissolve them near completely. Since that takes more time and we did grow up in the society of the magic pill - wellness today, some people would like the fast/harsh quick fix. On the other hand, these other liver cleanse use all natural and whole foods with either far less oil or no oil at all!

Instead of the harsh flush, I will focus and report on the gentle cleanse.

So what happen to Lan...

Well, apparently it started when my pancreas was overloaded and shutdown. Both pancreatic enzymes and insulin both shut off when I needed them both. That also caused my elevation in temperature, although it was not excessively high. I have experienced this before when I was eating SAD.

Due to my Celiac Disease and the increased intestinal permeability that goes along with it, the oil basically poured (not filtered) into my blood. Former cardiovascular disease just sucked up the oil, etc. and blocked a blood vessel to my heart and another to my brain about 85-90% I asked my Honeybun to not allow them to cut me open and not be sorry no matter what happen. Here the next of kin has pretty much absolute control over you when you are unconscious. However, although I could not focus on anything for days, I never fully passed out... just slept 22 hours a day!

People with cardiovascular disease, diabetes, Celiac and liver diseases should really think twice about this HARSH liver cleanse.

"Celiac" is also a hard one to define. It destroys your small intestines. They tell you to stop eating gluten. Now the same applies of you have a mild 0.5% destruction or if you have had it for more than 50 years, untreated like mine, and have 95% or more destruction. It likewise applies to some people with a permanent type of Celiac in which the intestines will not heal!

Rule of thumb I have since learned, people with Celiac Disease who have soft stools should consider laying off the oils. Check your toilet! Look for well formed friends! Some on raw food with Celiac have diarrhea even with no oil!

I am not discounting that some people benefit from the harsh flush. Some may feel little to no discomfort. Sadly, doctors frequently point to the same statistics about chemo. Personally I will advocate raw natural food - and the apple/carrot, durian/avocado cleanse, and live more along the line of the 80-10-10 formula without focus or always counting the percentages as some do.

I have basically decided to likewise rid myself of most non-Vegan food like salt. While I was down I happen to read parts of a book called "coconut water for health and healing", by Dr. Bruce Fife. I realized that between kelp and sea shore coconuts (as opposed to inland coconuts) I would no longer require any other sodium.

For me, 100% wholefood Vegan males since for the level of healing / health I am seeking. I was already aware of many here at RFT that likewise follow oil / cardiovascular disease restrictions or restrictions for cancer or other illnesses.

When I get healthy and write my book (hehe) you will all have to get a copy! But don't whole your breath! I am working on a healing lifestyle/diet for my location. which will include a lot of what I have learned, like gentle cleansing and "water Kefir" / Sugary Kefir Grains (SKG) - that is actually not Kefir at all but "Tibicos". I have heard very good reports about this! And can't wait to try both eating the grains and as a rectal implant to combat former massive antibiotic use (see Kefir Dom's site if you are interested).

I know this is rambling a little, sorry. I have also been told that it may take 6-10 years of living this way for my intestines to fully heal... and to not start counting until after I fall out of the obese category into "overweight!" I have retired 229 pounds and I am still morbidly obese! :(

Again, thank you all for all your well wishes. Sorry but I really need to go back to sleep... Best to all...

[rawrawks]

Lan, thank you for the update and more in depth word of what happened to you. Wow it sound slike that has been no fun. To say the least.

I am glad you spelled out details of how the flush was harmful to your body.

Personally I have done five of them and I know LNdolls has done 30 of them. I have never been sick in any way nor has anyone I know. My sister came down with the flu at the same time but that is all.

That being said, I will not reccomend it myself to anyone who has major health problems. Not a good idea for them and taking no chances, in the hopes of helping, to harm another.

Thank you for the insight. You are on your way! Bes ot health to you and wellness in abundance.

[Veganforlife]

Wow! I hope your body continues to heal...

[Rick2009]

Lan,

Be well, so glad you made it through your ordeal!

[katchmoleen]

Lan, get to the point, did you pass any gallstones or not? :p


PS so glad you made it and can love on that beautiful baby girl!

[Aleesha Sattva]

I am so happy to hear you are well. I figured you were busy with that beautiful baby girl of yours. (((hugs))) to you on your journey.

[Rick2009]

Lan,

Read your post-ordeal notes. Whew! That must have been scary !

Glad you are better.

I want to get rid of liver stones but the liver flushes with oil are not for me. I am using apple juice with a couple of teaspoons of raw apple cider vinegar with the mother included. Takes longer, might work.. its within my limits and healthy.

Be well,

[VeGenesis]

Lan, get to the point, did you pass any gallstones or not? :p


PS so glad you made it and can love on that beautiful baby girl!

Yeah, Little Lanie and my Honeybun are real inspirations...

No gall or liver stones... but I may know why!

Sacred Heart Hospital is a teaching hospital - it is actually on the campus of Southwestern University. If you ever go there, you will see tons of medical, surgical, and nursing students. People with open minds! (Remembering Patch Adams here!) Some are studying to be nutritionist too! If you are a patient in the hospital you will likely get to met 20-30 at least! Per day!

Personally I take a look at every meeting in my life as a chance to enrich and empower another person (as well as to be enriched by them). What do you think would happen when a guy came to my bedside and said "I'd like to talk to you about what you eat?"

Well it went something like this...

"I'd like to talk to you about what you eat?"

"I eat raw food, you will not convince me to start eating SAD again." :rolleyes:

"SAD? You mean the Standard American Diet?"

"Or the Standard Asian Diet."

"(Laughter) I don't want to kill you."

"(Thinking) Ok, what would you like to know?"

"I'm doing a paper on nutritional cleansing and I would like to know what your experience was?"

"Crank the bed up a little (they are not electric here)."

"You were trying an oil and citrus and magnesium salts flush, is that right?"

"Olive oil, grapefruit and Epsom salts."

"Did it work? Did you pass stones?"

"No."

"Do you eat any of these? (Handing me a paper.) Hilaw?"

"Raw? (We both laugh - Hilaw actually means "before cooking" or in the case of fruit "before ripe". The concept of raw does not exist. There is no word that actually means raw.)

I looked at the list, here is what I remember.
Italics are my added notes for people not living in the Philippines...

Green Apple Juice - that would be granny smith apple juice here
Carrot Juice
Apple Juice
Green Apples - granny smith apples
Carrots
Apples
Buko (Juice and flesh) - This is young coconut water and meat!
Pears
Pakwon - Watermelon
Bananas

"I eat all of that!"

"Daily?"

"I eat some of it everyday. Some bananas, apple, carrots and buko daily. The rest a few times a week, sort of rotated. I do not drink juice - just blend them up or eat them whole."

"That is why you had no stones and why your labs in these areas are so good. All of these fruits have malic acid. This dissolves stones in the liver, gall bladder and kidneys. Buko alone, taken 4 times a week, will rid your body of kidney stones in just a week or two. Carrots or fresh carrot juice will stimulate the liver to make more bile and rinse the smaller dissolving stones out of your liver and gall bladder. The high fiber in your diet flushes the bile out of your system so it is not reabsorbed in the colon. Bile is made largely from cholesterol which is why your LDL's - ugh - cholesterol labs are so good. Your diet is pretty good. Thanks for your time."

"Wait! What about me? Any advice?"

"Based on your statements and your chart, my advice would just be to stay away from oil and salts of any kind."

"What about sodium?"

"(Looking at my chart) Eat some guso ug lado - ugh - seaweeds. A few times a week. You can try to buy coconuts that are grown at the beach instead of in the hills. Your current tests are ok. (Winking) Be sure to ask your doctor." ;)


Lan,

Read your post-ordeal notes. Whew! That must have been scary !

Glad you are better.

I want to get rid of liver stones but the liver flushes with oil are not for me. I am using apple juice with a couple of teaspoons of raw apple cider vinegar with the mother included. Takes longer, might work.. its within my limits and healthy.

Be well,

Well Rick, sounds good. I'd add carrots! And 5 walnut halves.


raw apple cider vinegar with the mother

That reminds me of a brand we can get here in the Philippines, imported from the USA called bragg's. It is the only vinegar I use. After lunch and before bed I drink a glass of water (pH 7.5 - kH 200-400 pps) with a Tablespoon of Raw ACV in it. I have heard this helps with all stones too.

My suggestion, based on new information, would be to add carrot juice or make a carrot/apple salad for lunch or dinner each day for a couple months. I also think a whole raw apple a day keeps the doctors at bay! Haha! I used to say that rhyme 50 years ago, now I believe it!

I love my granny! In fact I actually had a Grandma Smith! My mother's mother. Married to Grandpa Smith! Granny Smith Apples have more stone dissolving malic acid than others you will find in most stores. They are more sour and less sugary too! Great for smoothies! Adds a great tart flavor to bananas! They are great for your liver, kidneys and gall badder. Add to Carrot Salad with a few walnuts and it is also a heart heaven!

Fiber (apples, carrots, basically all raw foods) helps remove bile instead of recycling it back into your liver. That will help your LDL's and HDL's balance and will also help your liver flush with NEW bile (not recycles from your waste disposal unit!).

I now believe our bodies were made to run best on new fresh bile made from cholesterol in our blood. Recycled bile from the bowel is like an emergency reserve to just keep us running till we can (normally) eat food fiber (living) foods again!

I am with Alissa on enzymes. At least to a point. These are very important in our overall health. On the other hand, I do not think it is wise to discard the medical research that shows many enzymes never make it into our gut. Perhaps this is a case of good enzymes / bad enzymes? Further research needs to be done. In any case, Raw WORKS!

Most of the raw vs cooked research I have been studying lately is really more in the area of pre-digestion. Heat breaks down fiber strands and predigests food. This is far different from fermentation, like Tibicos (water kefer) or Raw ACV which is often beneficial to our health.

Heat kills. It creates carcinogens in more simple sugars like french fries or baked potatoes or grains (all cooked starchy foods). Being predigested we absorb more of these toxins that tend to be deposited in our cleansing systems. Liver cancer, kidney cancer, colon cancer, to name a few. Excess cholesterol and recycled bile created from low fiber (cooked, dead, extracted, predigested hot foods) builds the nasties like high LDL's that lead to so many fun vacations from work in the hospital! (Heart Transplants, Liver Transplants and others!).

I find it interesting and humorous that 50 years ago there was a minor war often played out at the dinner table. "Eat your carrots!" I would often hear my mother say. Happily it was not to me... The amazing part was that the war raged between cooked carrots that were hated. Take the same raw carrots and make carrot salad (adding a few left over Christmas walnuts from my other Grandma's tree go well in there - but avoid the occasional worm!), well, carrot salad was fine, cooked carrot was an unwinnable war!

Today I see humor in that I tell people eat your carrots, walnuts and apples raw and throw out the stove! That would have ended the war!

Rick - My advice - add carrots! :D Also add 5 walnut halves or a tablespoon of chopped walnuts once a day for the Omega 3's - your heart will love you for it!

[VeGenesis]

I am so happy to hear you are well. I figured you were busy with that beautiful baby girl of yours. (((hugs))) to you on your journey.

Hehe! Lanie is sleeping right now!

I'm not quite well as I was. :( Still spending way to much time in bed. Even now! I am back on the journey and I really appreciate the well wishes from Everyone! I tend to get sick fast and get well slow. Perhaps that accounts for some of my resolve to NEVER leave this lifestyle (at least not until I leave this life!).

Some elsewhere have said I am a little too skeptical of what people do. :rolleyes: Others think I am to much of a raw food fanatic. :D Remembering that I MUST avoid gluten and gluten is cross contaminated in almost all of the cooked and processes food chain here, I cannot afford mistakes.

SAD-ly the Philippines has imported shopping malls and fast food chains from the States (McD, Pizza Hut, Shakey's, KFC to name a few), and to earn more money have invented some homegrown ones we now are exporting (Jollibee). I have heard (a rumor or a cover-up?) that Jollibee had to makes some changes when going to to the States, because the food would not meet the health standards there! Health Standards? :eek: Like McD?

[Rick2009]

Lan,

Thank you for the very interesting and practical information. Yes, I'll be adding carrots and walnuts ! And coconut water ! And granny smith apples !

What a great post ! Thank you ! I copied it for future reference!

Be well,

[rawrawks]

Had my five walnuts tonight.

[katchmoleen]

I actually was being a little snarky about the fact that you nearly died from trying to flush out a few gall stones! It was definitely NOT worth it in your case!

[kherd2]

I have missed you soooo much. Thank you for telling us that you are getting better, I was worried.:eek: Also kudos on your part and your wonderful wife for not letting anyone operate or do anything that you didn't think would help you. I think I would have been too scared to not let doctors dictate their help, especially if they said I would die.:eek: Blessings hope love and thank goodness you are getting better..:)

[Rick2009]

Lan,

I'm making apple/carrot/celery/parsely/ginger my daily juice. Had my first daily walnuts today. I found granny smith at the market but, oh oh, the coconut water had sugar in it. So I'll look for another brand of coconut water at the health food store. I want to do a 2 week coconut water cure for my liver . A glass every other day.. that should keep the gravel out of my liver.

Be well.

How are you feeling these days? Getting better from your ordeal ?

[Shine]

Thank you for sharing your story. I am so glad you are on the mend and able to be a wonderful Papa for your Lanie. Blessings and positive healing thoughts for you and your family.

[RawHealthyBeauty]

May God bless your health with speedy healing back to wellness.

[VeGenesis]

Had my five walnuts tonight.

Oops, that is five walnut Halves... or 2.5 walnuts. Don't want to overload! :D

[VeGenesis]

I actually was being a little snarky about the fact that you nearly died from trying to flush out a few gall stones! It was definitely NOT worth it in your case!

Katch - I KNOW you love me - in a brotherly way - and I didn't take it bad. I actually posted back so that I could share what I have learned that may help others who may want to examine their journey.

I think one thing I have learned in this is that there are many levels. Of course there are those eating SAD and looking to become happy! 50% 75% 95% - But when you reach 100% raw I don't think that is the end. Notice the long term raw people tend to move from gourmet to a simple raw daily habit. Family, business and social pressures all are part of this as well. We do not live in a raw food bubble. We are blessed to fine internet raw friends and maybe someone that will walk the walk with us.

Of course. when we decide to go raw we are not just trading in our bodies for brand new perfect ones. We have, in a very real sense, every disease known to and even unknown to man! Because we are human!

For me, my journey is taken on a form of optimal health. Whole-fuel for the human body consumes a lot of my time. Extraction of any kind seems to pervert the optimum design.

If I would have died while testing this liver cleanse it would have really been tragic. But, in hindsight, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger! I did grow stronger in wisdom, knowledge and understanding. In that light this harsh liver cleanse was a success! I will never do it again! Now that is smart!

I am also well aware that I do NEED a liver cleans solution. One provided within my current (or perhaps future) understanding of optimum whole-fuel. That is my current goal...

The search banana above and the vast amounts of posts on this and other sites is a gold mind of information to research.

For example, here is one I just put together today. My pH of my saliva went from pH 7.2 to pH 5.4 when I did the liver cleanse. It has steadily climbed back to about 6.5 now. I wonder what other people's pH was during and after their liver cleanse?

I am blessed because for me decisions are often life vs death and I am forced to take a serious look at this.

[VeGenesis]

I have missed you soooo much. Thank you for telling us that you are getting better, I was worried.:eek:

Thank you so much kherd - yes, I am getting better every day little by little.

Step by step closer to the best health of my life!

whoa - same goes for you - it is good to be a part of such a caring community.

Rick - good for you - start a thread and share what happens - maybe others will want to join you. You may want to Google things like "no epsom liver cleanse" and "no oil liver cleanse"

[Rick2009]

Thank you so much kherd - yes, I am getting better every day little by little.

Step by step closer to the best health of my life!

whoa - same goes for you - it is good to be a part of such a caring community.

Rick - good for you - start a thread and share what happens - maybe others will want to join you. You may want to Google things like "no epsom liver cleanse" and "no oil liver cleanse"

Sounds like some good ideas. Thank you.

[Rick2009]

Vegenesis,

I googled "no oil liver cleanse" and found interesting information on castor oil packs ! I am trying my first pack on my liver right now. Castor oil is from the Bible also? Didn't know that. So much to learn. Its winter here, I might try some for chapped skin this winter.

[VeGenesis]

New information has come my way, and after the longest time I have changed my stance on Walnuts.

As of not all nuts in my life have gone the way of grain, seeds and beans into things I believe I am better without. I see no advantage in my life to continue to eat these any longer.

I was eating Walnuts for Omega 3's. I now have learned that enough dark green leaves will give me all I need!

For what it is worth...

[VeGenesis]

Rick - cooked food is also in the Bible, as well as meat (I wouldn't recommend either!). Likewise in other old books of many religions. There is wisdom in these. However, one must understand that these are usual in the form of examples. Good and bad examples! One must read ancient text carefully.

For me, I was most interested in what it said about the Original Design!

My eating has become simpler and simpler. People who become more simple in their eating also tend to lean more toward whole food - which I am. I think whole foods are actually more likely to produce the healing effects and strength I want to achieve. Mainly because of balance than anything else.

That is why I reversed my stance on Walnuts when I found something that worked better for me. A better balance for me. Let me repeat those last two words... FOR ME!

The Genesis in VeGenesis is about seeking the original design. (I would welcome original design food or eating quotes from other ancient books - it just so happens that due to family history, reading some Hebrew is easy for me.)

For me, original design would make sense to me to be the optimal design. In this effort, I have come to believe that we were not designed to eat seeds as a primary food. That is, if we were eating green beans - the seeds (beans) within the pod would be a very small amount.

Likewise, I have seen a vid where the guy started out having a great time eating macadamia nuts under the tree! He broke them with a rock and ate about 10 before he got tired (that is not easy work!) and he walked over to a nearby orange tree and ate three oranges!

What interested me was the fact that the hull of the nut was a limiting factor using only hands and rocks! The orange peal was no problem at all! It seemed to be a graphic display of original design.

It just seemed more natural.

So, for me, I have been removing seeds like grains, nuts, seeds and beans from my diet and doing very well without them. (Many people around the globe do not eat these in their cultures.) The less seeds I eat the more healthy I become!

I think I am getting plenty of oils in the food I am eating as evidenced by:

1) The way I feel;
2) my BP (112/70) and pulse (54);
3) my Blood Sugar (70);
4) my performance (I actually built a set of shelves yesterday - first time in years I didn't hire someone to do this type of work);
5) my lack of any major pain;
6) my lack of diarrhea caused by Celiac Disease; and
7) my over all well being! That's HUGE!

All of this applies to me, for me, but may also apply to people with serious diabetes / heart disease and may apply to people with Celiac Disease and IBS or those seeking a simpler life or an optimum health or performance.

Since I am seeking treatments to share with people who are seriously ill with little to no money nor treatment options, I view things a little differently than the Standard American on this site. But I do appreciate the wide verity of inputs here.

[rawrawks]

I am living proof that the nuts and heavy recipes do not work for me. In making my videos and eating things I make, I have become so sick. My liver is revolting and I am all but in bed. I have digestion problems and aches all over. I cannot believe how these foods puffed me out (toxemia) and shot me down. I was like a farrari (on light foods and green juice) and now I feel like an ol model T.

I was never a heavy consumer of nuts nor of the recipes. And I have had huge success. Now I am back to my light fare. And hope to feel better soon.

[Rick2009]

I am living proof that the nuts and heavy recipes do not work for me. In making my videos and eating things I make, I have become so sick. My liver is revolting and I am all but in bed. I have digestion problems and aches all over. I cannot believe how these foods puffed me out (toxemia) and shot me down. I was like a farrari (on light foods and green juice) and now I feel like an ol model T.

I was never a heavy consumer of nuts nor of the recipes. And I have had huge success. Now I am back to my light fare. And hope to feel better soon.

We are all so very different ! Vegenesis found his way as did you and I and everyone else here. In a forest full of fruit trees it would be simpler.
I think I am going to juice feast and give my system a break.

Vegenesis,
How true nuts require more than an orange to access. And when did eating mammoths and other prehistoric animals become natural? I mean, we have hands with fingers and mammoths have huge tusks and weigh.. what..10,000 pounds? Can't imagine chasing one of those. I'm a plant and pick and eat type. Did the ice age turn us into a bunch of meat hunters ? I often wonder.
For me, lighter is better.
Your seed and nut-free eating has got me thinking.
When Dave, the raw food trucker, at 403 pounds and seriously carnivorous, started to eat raw foods..he ate 20 ounces of almond butter a day.. presumably to replace the bad fats he had given up. I remember going heavy on almond butter when I went high raw... these days eating like that would just slow me right down...maybe even make me sick.
I am going to try to cut way back on seeds and nuts to see how that makes me feel. Its interesting.

[Rick2009]

. And hope to feel better soon.

Hope you feel better soon.

[RawTruth]

I am living proof that the nuts and heavy recipes do not work for me. In making my videos and eating things I make, I have become so sick. My liver is revolting and I am all but in bed. I have digestion problems and aches all over. I cannot believe how these foods puffed me out (toxemia) and shot me down. I was like a farrari (on light foods and green juice) and now I feel like an ol model T.

I was never a heavy consumer of nuts nor of the recipes. And I have had huge success. Now I am back to my light fare. And hope to feel better soon.

I am so sorry this happened, RR, but I must admit that, when reading the thread of people making and eating (sometimes several) raw gourmet dishes every day, I wondered when this would finally hit.

Alissa is very clear (as is every single raw food author if people would bother to read the material at the front of the book -- even Ani's new dessert book) that these foods are for treats or to use when transitioning to raw. They are not healthful, daily foods. They are NOT meals for optimal health.

Believe me, I have lots of experience with this myself and also coaching and teaching people. If a person is in touch with their body, they will naturally begin eating more simply once they've transitioned away from the heavy, cooked-food feelings that used to seem normal. They will begin choosing purer meals with fewer ingredients. Unfortunately, many of us are not in touch with our bodies and many others eat for emotional reasons. Still others are caught up in the aspect of raw food lifestyle wherein it seems that the creation of delicious recipes (and how close they taste to "real" food -- what's up with that, anyway) is the exciting part of being raw. Their focus (and massive amounts of time) ends up being on the "cooking show" component and the forum-companionship of sharing online rather than on the vibrant health benefits and face-to-face real-life supporters.

I'm so glad that you've encountered this discomfort! Not that I wish you ill, of course, but it means that you're conscious and tuned in to what's going on, and that you'll likely last in this lifestyle.

[RawTruth]

Lan,

I'm making apple/carrot/celery/parsely/ginger my daily juice. Had my first daily walnuts today. I found granny smith at the market but, oh oh, the coconut water had sugar in it. So I'll look for another brand of coconut water at the health food store. I want to do a 2 week coconut water cure for my liver . A glass every other day.. that should keep the gravel out of my liver.

Be well.

How are you feeling these days? Getting better from your ordeal ?
Rick, you need to use young Thai coconuts, not bottled or canned coconut water. Fresh coconut water straight from the coconut.

[VeGenesis]

I was like a farrari

I am back to my light fare. And hope to feel better soon.

It took me a couple weeks, I'll whisper a prayer that you bonce back faster! I really like seeing that Ferrari!

I think one of the things that really got to me was watching my wife. She had no problems. She went raw with me - meaning when she is with me (nearly always) she eats raw, but apart she may eat something cooked. When I was eating SAD we used to go to Pizza Hut all the time. Now - we actually go to Pizza Hut often enough, they have the best salad at the mall ( BYOD! :D ). One day they had this special, a tiny little pizza and a salad. She ask if it would bother me if she had that instead of the salad I was having. I am not the diet police and I love my wife, so I told her to order whatever she wanted.

When the food came - she said that the pizza wasn't as good and she remembered - I am sure it was the same, it was her that changed! Even though it was a tiny pizza, she did not finish it and gave half to our friend Jef, who was with us. Anyway, we enjoyed our company together and went for a stroll through the mall, when suddenly she had to use the restroom. When she came out she was pale and a bit green too! She had vomited, not once but twice, the pizza! She had not been sick at all before eating pizza and everything she ate either I or Jef also ate (and no, she wasn't pregnant - hehe). She just had a violent reaction from going from raw to cooked pizza!

It also wasn't the last time, which led to a joke around here about pizza and spaghetti causing pregnancy sickness. It is funnier in the Bisayan Language.

Thanks so much for sharing your experiences. It must sound strange to people on high fat raw diets. But for those of us who made the transition to a lower fat raw diet, or to the simple eating (I have come to realize that the only preparation I do now is usually cut something up or zap it in the blender. More and more I just eat it (I love the feel of taking a bite out of a good, ripe, red Roma tomato!).

By the way Rawks - I loved watching your vids. The one on nut creams and dressings really impressed me. You are a special person! Although half way through that vid I did tell my Honeybun that I would never do that! I still liked the vid.

I was thinking of buying a camera and making a vid about the proper way to bite a whole tomato... :)

[VeGenesis]

Rick, you need to use young Thai coconuts, not bottled or canned coconut water. Fresh coconut water straight from the coconut.

Good point! I am lucky enough to get to drink the very young coconut water, "straight from the coconut" on the same day it was attached to the tree!

I realize that shipping the whole tree (with coconut) is a bit much - but many people do enjoy drinking the Buko Juice straight from the nut! "The coconut nut is a giant nut, if you eat to much you get really fat!" That is the song playing on the radio now!

I do hope it is ok, Truth, if I drink young Philippine coconuts. Honestly, I have never see a Thai coconut since I left Thailand!

[VeGenesis]

We are all so very different ! Vegenesis found his way as did you and I and everyone else here.

I think of most of these raw diets as really a transition to Food. We are all on a journey. Some run, some crawl. As in the old days, some die on the journey and it is unclear if any actually gets to the perfect place!

In reality, we are all following our own diet. I am hoping to get a copy of Alissa's new book about all the things they create at their restaurant. Why do we go to a restaurant? Well, many people go to celebrate!

I eat simply. In days past my Honeybun would shape my mashed potatoes into a heart - today when my birthday rolls around we have heart shaped watermelon with candles to blow out! Is that not gourmet food also! It doesn't hurt that my birthday is near valentines and also when watermelons are in season and plenty!

If you read the sports raw guy, he also talks about celebration food. Between all his figures and numbers - you find that he averages over about a month. So if you have a celebration - no problem!

The renegade raw guy now says (OMG!) that he eats a little cooked food! And the biggest blaspheme is the H-Acres preacher that started with the same Genesis 1:29 verse I did, but has abandon 100% raw to include an 85%/15% cooked food mix.

All of them are either raw or high raw vegan.

However, it has been my observation that people who use dehydrators, and to a lesser degree those that juice, end up back cooking in the kitchen faster than those that transition to raw whole foods and a more simple way of eating. I didn't say all or anything like that, and I am sure there are whole food people who also fall off the bandwagon (or are secret cheaters avoiding the raw food police!).

Aren't we all so funny!

Look at this site - all around the boarders are raw Whole foods! There is not a raw pizza for the search, but a banana! There is no raw chile for the home page but a lemon!

For me I have found a cute little Porsche or maybe a classic T-Bird with the long nose and the tee top open to the sky - racing under the Sherman tank (ever see that Sherman movie? Professor Klump!) that I disguised my body as for so long.

How? Well one thing I do is eat a half kilo of greens each day! I do not recommend that to small people! My bones alone weigh 130 lbs!

Much more than what I eat is the fact that I have started looking at life as a whole. People who stressed me, I stood up to. Some of them left - good! I bought birds, I bought fish, they make me calm and bring joy to be and my family. I pet my old graying dog every day and lift my daughter off the floor and say "be-doop!" Why? We love Snoopy. "Snoop-be-doop-be-doop-be-do!"

Living food brings life! I do not ever think about giving up anything. I did not give up... hold that thought, my Honeybun just brought me this beautiful salad that tastes like it was delivered fresh - straight from heaven! Wow! here is a timely thought - I cannot see why anyone would want to be imitating eating SAD when they could be creating HAPPY food like this! (Healthy And Pretty Powerfully Yummy!)

As I said, I did not give up anything. By eating RAW118 I am returning to what I believe is the original design. I choose not to eat grain, seeds, nuts and beans (the seed parts of plants) because it seems logical to me based on my understand. Just as my wife and I were talking about the HA preacher and how he pushes high nutrition in juicing. What is nutrition? Did people know all the nutrients our body needs 2,000 years ago? Do they today? Does everyone agree what the perfect diet it? Do humans know everything there is to know about health, illness and nutrition? What if in taking a pound of carrots to get 8 oz of carrot juice we throw away Vitamins X,Y and Z that are later proven to be the most important part of carrots!

How many of our ancestors when out and dug in the dirt to eat sprouts? Likely the ones that starved to death and died out long ago! How many grabbed the wheat or millet stalks in their mouths and started chomping away - Yucks! Who starved to death breaking hard nuts or in hunting seeds? Pretty illogical!

We believe these are good for us because it is big business! The protein business! Eat your grain for breakfast - eat your grain as cheese for lunch, eat your grain as meat for dinner. Eat all the grain you can so the grain business and the dairy and the beef, pork and chicken business can make a lot of money off of you before you die early! If you want to see a really healthy cow - look to the one who only grazes on grass! Wow, look at that magnificent protein he built!

If you need Omega 3 or Vit A and Vid D - some people take fish oil! Why? Fish cannot make it! They get it by eating plankton! Humans can actually make our own Omega 3 that is even better for us - all we need is the right food... What kind? Green leafy gold from heaven! Stuff we can easily grab from the earth or from trees and eat with out bare hands!

I have personally seen people pull up ginger or carrots from the soft ground and start chomping away. I have seen people chomp into bell peppers and tomatoes and cucumbers. I know a man who with just a shale rock can cut a watermelon into very nice pieces to eat! Original design!

I saw lions once attack, kill and devour a beef bull in a field. Just thinking about it, those lions were designed with powerful jaws and sharp claws to rip and tear that bull apart. Now, let's put a man in the field with that bull. His job is to kill and eat the bull or starve to death! First problem - kill the bull with just his hands and teeth. Problem 2, bite the bull and eat it. OMG this hide is as tough as leather! Believe me, the guy is going to bite the bullet and die! That is original design!

It makes you think!

No offense to wherever you are on life's journey - this just happens to be where I am.

[VeGenesis]

Alissa is very clear (as is every single raw food author if people would bother to read the material at the front of the book -- even Ani's new dessert book) that these foods are for treats or to use when transitioning to raw. They are not healthful, daily foods. They are NOT meals for optimal health.

I'm so glad that you've encountered this discomfort! Not that I wish you ill, of course, but it means that you're conscious and tuned in to what's going on, and that you'll likely last in this lifestyle.

Very good points rawTruth! I too have notice people on the boards that seem to be just passing through. They seem to be looking for something - what I am not sure! Life is more than RFT and a recipe! Living on live food starts with "Living!"

I too am glad RawRawks is on the comeback - she is one of the most natural and I dare say one of my favorite posters! She is on the path...

You can easily spot the people on the path - they are the ones with little "failures" and setbacks. The ones that are learning. The ones that are human and alive and feeling what they are Living! RawRawks - you Rawk!

Salamat! (It means thank you.)

[Rick2009]

Rick, you need to use young Thai coconuts, not bottled or canned coconut water. Fresh coconut water straight from the coconut.

Sounds good ! I know a market that has some imported thai coconuts. Thank you !

[VeGenesis]

Sounds good ! I know a market that has some imported thai coconuts. Thank you !

Hehe - I know a market that has some imported Washington apples! :D

Apples do not grow in the warm tropical climate of the Philippines. Coconuts fall all over your ground and can be bought for just Ten Pisos - about 20 cents American!

I think this is why Raw Food is really a Lifestyle and not just a diet. It is your lifestyle that takes you to these other places. For me, I also speak to the people buying the "unusual" foods. Sometimes people will also ask me if I like what I am buying or if I am buying it for someone else. When they learn I am buying it for myself - my lifestyle brings in an instant new friend!

More than once I have bought some veggies at an open air or farmers market and taken a bite and someone will tell me they also like to eat ______ that way - insert anything in the blank, bell peppers, okra, tomatoes, eggplant, any fruit or greens or carrots - anything I take a liking to! New friends!

A LIFESTYLE!

[lovenlife]

Anybody heard from our good fella VeGenesis? His last post was a while ago....hmmm.

[lovenlife]

I have a lady I am coaching who wants to do a liver flush. She has very little health problems that we are aware of.
She had gone to the hospital last week with liver/gallbladder pain so we are looking at a way to avoid surgery.

I have done five of these with no problems and totally believe in them.

I was rememebring this thread and came back to check on what was Ians situation and the rough time he had.

I saw this thread:

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?t=54513&highlight=liver+flush

I might imagine the long list of health problems Ian had may have made him not a good canidate for liver flush?

[Aleesha Sattva]

I've done an ayervedic (spell?) method many years ago and it was soooo gentle and worked wonderfully (pills at the health food store). Of course the real healing IMO... is simply eating raw and over time... your body heals itself.

;) But that's who and what I'm about... I really deeply believe in the healing power of the body and it's innate wisdom it has to heal itself.

[tolondontoparis]

Oh wow!!! YAY I can say FACK YOU to those terrible oil flushes an drink yum yum juices and lemons and limes, and RAW to cleanse and flush!

[Arky]

With regard to the original post, this sounds to me like magnesium overdose from the Epsom salts ('hypermagnesemia'). People are told to consume insane amounts of it on these flushes and it really isn't safe in such quantities:

http://curezone.com/cleanse/liver/epsom_salt_and_liver_flush.asp

Much safer to patiently use stone-breaking herbs for a month or two:

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?48992-Question-about-wrinkles&p=663109#post663109

Also see:

http://sensiblehealth.com/

[Living Food]

Furthermore, there ARE a number of other liver / gallbladder cleanse protocols available on the Internet. These focus more on dissolving stones rather that the harshness of forcing them out by overloading the system. This takes longer to dissolve them near completely. Since that takes more time and we did grow up in the society of the magic pill - wellness today, some people would like the fast/harsh quick fix. On the other hand, these other liver cleanse use all natural and whole foods with either far less oil or no oil at all!

Instead of the harsh flush, I will focus and report on the gentle cleanse.

Yes, there are safer ways to do liver cleanses. Another important point is to NEVER do a liver cleanse before doing a colon cleanse, or all of the toxins that are released will just reenter your bloodstream instead of being removed from your body.


What if in taking a pound of carrots to get 8 oz of carrot juice we throw away Vitamins X,Y and Z that are later proven to be the most important part of carrots!

I understand how you came to that viewpoint, and respect it, but

1. Good juicers extract just about everything from the plant and only leave the fiber

2. You absorb nutrients from carrot juice way better then you do by eating the carrots whole, and put far less stress on your digestive system (and thus your whole body).

Yes, fiber is important, but so is nutrition...and juicing is the best way to get it.


How many of our ancestors when out and dug in the dirt to eat sprouts?

Erm...all of them. When spring came around and the little weed sprouts and shoots were coming up everywhere, I can guarantee that our ancestors gorged themselves on them. The perfect food to recharge from a winter of less-then-ideal nutrition.


If you want to see a really healthy cow - look to the one who only grazes on grass! Wow, look at that magnificent protein he built!

Yup, grass is a pretty amazing food...but you seem to be addvocating not eating it, as us humans can only extract the amazing nutrients from it by juicing it.

And the biggest flaw that I see in your argument...the vegetables and fruits that we grow now are not the same foods that our ancestors ate, and many vegetables are really too difficult for us to digest raw, as they aren't natural foods (cauliflower and broccoli, for example, are huge, unnatural, immature flowers). If you want to talk about what our ancestors ate, it was wild fruits and greens...not the hybrid fruits and genetically modified vegetables your talking about.

Now, I'm not trying to offend you or argue for the sake of arguing, but I want to introduce some points that nobody else has raised in this thread so far.