If B12 is necessary....

[abeautifulworld]

This is just something I've wondered quite often. I'm definitely all for not consuming animal products, but if vitamin B12 is necessary for humans, and we can only get it from animal products, wouldn't it be logical to assume that our bodies require animal products? I'm NOT suggesting that we should all be eating meat!! Not at all! I'm just curious, because this seems like the only logical fallacy in following a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle. Please, enlighten me!

[Revvell]

First of all, it's still under question as to IF we can't make it ourselves or not and secondly, IF it comes from animal products, why are so many who eat animals deficient in B12?

There are other components at work here it seems. :confused:

[abeautifulworld]

But if we can make it ourselves, then why would it be more common for people who are raw/vegan to become deficient? I guess I wasn't aware that many people who consume animal products are deficient as well.

[T-Bird]

A truly natural diet, like living out in the wilds and eating nuts, berries, grasses and greens, etc as available right out of the ground would include quite a lot of bugs and fecal matter from other animals.....

both rich sources of b12.

I don't think I can ever go that "native" and I am willing to supplement until such time as I can get regular testing, etc then will experiment with not supplementing.

[Revvell]

But if we can make it ourselves, then why would it be more common for people who are raw/vegan to become deficient?

Didn't say whether we can or can't. I said it's still up in the air and who says it's more common for people who are raw/vegan vegetarian to become deficient? People who eat SAD/meat-based diets are deficient in many nutrients and often don't know it or do know it which is why they often add multi-vitamins which includes b-12. Therefore, it's not necessarily the animal products which supply the b-12 but the multi.

People haven't been raw vegan long enough to really know if our food supply contains enough b-12 or if our bodies create it with the correct nutrients/foods or, if once our systems are detoxified if that'll do it. Too many unknowns at this point.

[Green_Woman]

Meantime until all that research is worked out, Revvell, can you recommend a good B-12 supplement or raw source that I could take for awhile?

I've got a few symptoms that are representative of B-vitamin deficiency and my body has been craving some of the old SAD foods I used to eat FOR their B-vitamin content for a few weeks now... which I know is her way of telling me to up my intake.

I've been doing my research and hesitated to post about it on here because I've seen how nasty those debates got in the past! But I would like to address it, so here's my chance. ;)

[Veganforlife]

sea veggies - esp. nori are high in B12

Ounce for ounce sea vegetables are higher in vitamins and minerals than any other food
group. They are particularly high in vitamins A, C, E, B1, B2, B6, and B12. Seaweed also contains a substance (ergesterol) that converts to vitamin D in the body.

[Green_Woman]

Then THAT'S why my adorable little Body has been telling me to go get sushi eighteen times a day. I think it's time for me to grab a bag of crunchy sea veggies and chow down for lunch!

[Veganforlife]

Then THAT'S why my adorable little Body has been telling me to go get sushi eighteen times a day. I think it's time for me to grab a bag of crunchy sea veggies and chow down for lunch!

Be sure to keep hydrated when crunching down. I sometimes forget.

[Green_Woman]

Good point! Lots of tasty salt on those little shrively suckers. :D

Btw...

I LOVE how simple the solutions are when you're eating RAW!!!

[streetsurfer]

I found this on an older vitachart.

Spirulina-4 oz. .......250mcg B12
--------------
Beef Liver-8 oz. ......181 mcg B12

Trout-16 0z. ..........22 mcg B12

[freshlight]

But if we can make it ourselves, then why would it be more common for people who are raw/vegan to become deficient? I guess I wasn't aware that many people who consume animal products are deficient as well.

the funny thing is: most people who get it are carnivors: I got that information from the doc and he told me that it got a lot to do with being under emotional stress. I don't think raw food needs to be supplemented.

[Green_Woman]

Spirulina I can get here!!!

[T-Bird]

sea veggies - esp. nori are high in B12

I've read that sea veggies are high in B12 analogs, which register as b12 on lab tests but don't do the important B12 work in the neuro-system....

[Tirza]

That is interesting about sea veggies and B12. Looking to hear more on that.

When I was a SAD eater, I got a HUGE iron deficiency. Figure that. I was eating lots of red meat - loved it. Didn't have unusually heavy periods...

It ended up that supplements didn't do it for me - they gave me shots. Believe me, you'd rather not have those iron shots!! No one ever tried to find out why I was so deficient. I was a regular college student, nothing out of the ordinary in my life. So how did I and many other red meat eaters get iron deficient?

My point is clear - the deficiencies that are often warned about in vegetarian/vegan diets are definitely present in the general populace. Why don't they figure that out and try to find the real cause instead of using that scapegoat or red herring?

[Revvell]

I don't want to go recommending non-vegan foods ...

Best you don't as this is a raw vegan site.

[Raw Angel Mom]

Good question, my daughter got a blood test and her B12 was fine. I supplement anyway because they say this is low but not deficient. I won't gamble with that but something in me tells me that she is more then fine. B12 comes from bacteria from your guts, which generates a chemical and your body transmute it into B12. Your liver will store B12 for many years. People who had B12 problems, is mainly because of having a bad intestinal flora which is cause by animal food also vitamin D deficiency could lead to lower your B12.

Human guts are compare to animals that are herbivore, very long and made to digest plant food. Our acid isn't as strong as an animals that eat flesh. They can eat raw meat because their acid is strong enough to kill living form that can make them ill etc...

Human have been eating meat for centuries and more, so our body did adapt but sadly to the cost of not living as long as our full potential. I understand that some human being are just not ready to take the plunge to a vegan diet but the ones that did, did reverse many chronic decease caused by animal food.

You can find B12 in plant food. Nova Scotia sea weeds and other sea vegetables, bee pollen (must make sure you aren't allergic) and sunflower sprout. So this isn't true that B12 is from animal only.

Cows gets their B12 from the grass.

I was iron deficiency and low B12 when i was eating meat. I am vegan now and no more problem. I supplement B12 but only because i don't want to gamble.

So are we made to eat meat? I see more problem occurring from eating meat then being a vegan. You should read the China Study.

In the old days, you couldn't grow vegetables on winter, so people in the North had to eat wild meat in order to survive, today, we have technologies and we can import food now. Meat keep warm on winter and in my humble opinion so is food rich in potassium.

I personally believe in 100% plant food and raw.

[abeautifulworld]

Good point, Tirza!

[Green_Woman]

I want to share my excitement, everyone!!!

I've been thoughtfully reading the views and information on B12, and I've known for a little while now (because my body is VERY clear in communicating what I need) that I was becoming deficient in a few necessary minerals - primarily the B vitamins.

I've been eating a 75-90% RAW diet with fair consistency for the last 17 months and before that, I was 90-100% for a period of 6 months at a time. All in all, I've had an on-again, off-again relationship with RAW for over 3 years.

Always, one of the primary factors in my going-off RAW before was that I would become extremely weak, exhausted, and start experiencing extreme emotional issues (extreme for me would be SUPER-extreme for most of y'all ;) )...

So I would retreat back to SAD, and being eating fish and occasional vegetable soups again, searching for whatever my body was lacking... and thinking for the longest time that I couldn't get it in RAW!

Boy, was I ever wrong!

You can get EVERYTHING you need with RAW foods... if you only know where to look!

I had bought into the fallacy that you can only get adequate B12 from animal sources! Oops. :eek:

So, in the past week or so, not just from asking questions here but also by visiting the stores that sell RAW foods, reading books and hunting through websites, I found the following reliable, efficient sources of the Essential ABC's of the Vitamin and Mineral World...


Spirulina
Raw Dulce (packed with B12, especially)
Raw Kombucha (B2, B6, B1, B3, B12 as well as probiotics, antioxidants, and more!)
Vitamin Code Raw-B Complex (this is a supplement, but it's capsulated powder-form and though I've only been taking it 2 days and I can already feel a huge difference in my energy level and emotions... which means it's working!)


I know there are more but I'm running out of time and I just wanted to say... thank you to those who pitched in their two cents, and we really DON'T have to be "afraid" of deficiencies. Take a preemptive strike and seek balance, LISTEN to your body, and EDUCATE yourself about your RAW options! Don't make the mistakes I made and fall off the boat thinking SAD has answers... it doesn't! At least, not ones BETTER than the RAW way!!!


I LOVE RAW!

:D



And now I'm going to go swig some of my favorite immune-system balancer, Elderberry, and sip on Kombucha while I work on my novel (http://dauntlessdiva.com/2009/11/06/nanowrimo-the-adventure-continues-bonus-excerpts-from-the-novel-in-progress/).

[Krayton]

sea vegetables contain B-12 analogues, not B-12. http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/raw Is there corroborative evidence that sea vegetables can supply B-12? Please note, that I'm new and asking in good faith. I have seen claims that sea vegetables contain B-12 but nothing in the literature.

That said, why is it important if there are good raw vegan supplement B-12 sources available. Is nutritional yeast raw? If so it would seem like a reasonable alternative. If not, there are plenty of raw vegan B-12 supplements. Garden for Life offers one. http://www.crohns.net/page/C/PROD/GAN1435

I'm sure there are others. Best to you in your search. Just remember, that B-12 deficiency symptoms are irreversible nerve damage Please don't risk it, either test or supplement or both. Best.

Paul

[Tirza]

I freely admit that I know nothing about this on a scientific basis and I don't want to just be talking out of the top of my head, but I'm curious:

If sea vegetables only contain B12 analogs, could it be that the body still deals with it in such a way that it has the right effect? I'm thinking this because of the interesting way that soy - which doesn't have real estrogen in it, still has an estrogen effect on the body.

Pardon me and please correct me if that was a dumb question.

[Green_Woman]

Paul - Sea veggies weren't the only source I listed. ;)

[rawlight]

One other thing: it's not just eating the foods that contain vitamin B12 that might keep you from a deficiency, it's the way your individual body *absorbs* it that is key. Absorption is everything. And it's one of the reasons why some people are deficient and some aren't. Even people who eat meat, as has been discussed, can be dificient due to aborption issues along with other reasons, of course.

As with everything in life it seems, one size does not fit all.

[Tirza]

Exactly, rawlight!
It's how the individual body handles it - which explains why so many people who eat red meat can still have B12 or iron deficiencies, AND why so many women who have eaten dairy all their lives still get osteoporosis for instance. Very curious.

[Krayton]

Paul - Sea veggies weren't the only source I listed. ;)

I'm just looking for corroboration given that the risk is irreversible and serious. Regarding spirulina, I don't trust it. http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/health-fitness/487-vegan-sources-vitamin-b12.html#post6290
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirulina_(dietary_supplement). Regarding Kombucha, maybe. Actually the Garden of Life brand supplement I referenced above is b-12. Regarding the fermented tea, I don't have an opinion. I did see a reference to this site http://www.synergydrinks.com/ for a raw vegan source of B-12. Questions are though, is it reliable? And what are the alternatives? One thing is sure, you do need some reliable source of B-12 in your diet.

Paul

[Sawan]

I've wondered about this issue as well. I've heard sauerkraut and other fermented foods contain B12.

It's curious how we can get fixated on certain vitamins for our health. I wonder if we truly know about every single vitamin and nutrient that our body needs to survive. We are entirely limited by our science. Who's to say that there isn't a compound that we possess that helps us create all the vitamins and nutrients that we need, provided that we're eating the diet that humans are suppose to eat. That compound has simply not been discovered by our limited science.

I found an interesting statement about B12 here http://www.plantbased.org/html/b12.html:
"You also inquired regarding Vitamin B12. Presumably you have looked it up in an encyclopedia and know that this is a compound of the mineral cobalt, cobalamin, a product of microbes and ubiquitous around the world. Creatures, including humans, intake B12 through inhaling, licking and eating food which has been exposed to air and the particulate matter it carries. From air currents and soil, plants pick up B12, though it is said that plants do not "contain" B12. Rather like a yeast or nutritious dust, cobalamin is around the world floating in the air, washing into the soil during rain and snow, being produced by microbes -which have access to cobalt - all over the place. It is on, rather than in plants. And it is normally in us, recycling.

We've heard doctors and dietitians advocate, "Don't scrub the carrots too much" and "Don't cover the cooking pot." These are simple reminders that we sometimes go overboard scouring and peeling, and some good stuff is on as well as in plants. Korean kimchi, Chinese pickled cabbage, Japanese tofu, Indonesian tempeh, Ethiopian injera, European sauerkraut and diverse other foods which are openly fermented or manufactured outdoors, are likely to provide B12 as is an unpeeled apple, pear, carrot or radish. Tofu, to cite just one example, prepared indoors in stainless steel vats with tightly sealed lids and then aseptically packaged is unlikely to contain B12 unless it is added during the process. A farmer chewing on wheat in the field, or sampling some alfalfa leaves during harvest would likely be taking in B12.

Healthy individuals recycle B12 in their bodies. Our review of research indicates that it is passed through the digestive tract and then reabsorbed by the colon so that a given supply may last many years. Some colons may not assimilate B12 well and a deficiency might be determined through a blood test. Many so-called nutritional deficiencies are results of assimilation problems rather than effects of insufficient intake. That is, a given person might be consuming a thousand times more B12 than needed, yet suffering a deficiency. And another individual might rarely intake B12 yet have enough in the body.

The problem is that no one knows how much cobalt rich microbial B12 may be in the wind, on a leaf or potato today. So, to be sure, many people take a daily supplement. You'll find B12 listed as an ingredient on many multiple vitamin and food products. We personally have no fears of B12 inadequacy, yet take a little as supplementation in our vitamin tablets every day. This in addition to eating much of our food raw and periodically making kimchi in our kitchen..."

[Green_Woman]

Since it IS an individual thing (and everything is, really... ;) ) I am very happy that I have finally found ways to get ALL that my body needs from RAW...

I LOVE RAW!

:D