Kefir

[Rawjac]

I love kefir and have had kefir grains going for a while, but I'm not feeling daisy any more. How do you make raw kefir? I'd love to try coconut water kefir.. any hints please?

TIA

J x

[VeGenesis]

I love kefir and have had kefir grains going for a while, but I'm not feeling daisy any more. How do you make raw kefir? I'd love to try coconut water kefir.. any hints please?

TIA

J x

Isn't kefir made with milk? - it just seems like a memory from my former lacto ovo days...

[katchmoleen]

http://bodyecology.com/mcoconutkefir.php

You can make kefir out of nut milks and even water, as long as there is a source of carbohydrates for the buggies to eat.

[stellaJewels]

I just made a batch of coconut milk kefir yesterday and it's on my counter fermenting! Super easy and tasty and great in smoothies. I used the Body Ecology 'grains' too, just stirred them into coconut milk (meat from 3 baby coconuts and water from 2-3 depending on how thick you want it, blended well) Ferment 48 hrs and done! Then you can use some of that batch to make the next seven more times, so the grains go quite a long way

The BE lady recommends fermenting the water and meat separately, but I like it this way better and it's easier. Good luck!

[Rawjac]

Thanks guys! I've had my grains since April but I'm giving up dairy (well, trying to). Can the coconut water/milk not sustain them and get them growing? I don't want my kefir babies dying on me, sob...

I hope I can get them to multiply with the coconut... will make a batch tomorrow, thanks again!

[VeGenesis]

http://bodyecology.com/mcoconutkefir.php

You can make kefir out of nut milks and even water, as long as there is a source of carbohydrates for the buggies to eat.

katch - Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!

As soon as my wife saw the photos of the "young coconut" she said that is not young coconut! (We lost something in the translation that has been hampering our experiments!) It seems in the Philippines we have four "ages" of coconut and this is actually age 2 (haha, teen coconut? - not age 1 which is what she calls "young"). I did not know this!

These photos have given us at least 5 more ideas on how to make everything from Buko yogurt to a couple union or garlic dips to some salad dressings!

Dressings and dips are the hardest things to replace in our Filipino program, because of our lack of available nuts.

Thanks so much!

That page says, "kefir starter contains lactobacillus and beneficial yeast" The starter is going to be the hardest for us. I have a pro-bionic that has lactobacillus-gg as well as others in it. I wonder if this would work? But what about the yeast? Would yeast like I used before for bread work? I wonder...

There is a yogurt (milk) here that I guess I could use as sort of a "starter starter" (use the diluted first batch as my actual starter for what I will consume), but it kinda goes against my grain - sorry for the pun!


(meat from 3 baby coconuts and water from 2-3 depending on how thick you want it, blended well) Ferment 48 hrs and done!

The BE lady recommends fermenting the water and meat separately, but I like it this way better and it's easier. Good luck!

Jewels - That sounds wonderful! When we figure out a starter we will surely try this. After fermented I plan to blend in a nice fresh mango or some jackfruit and I bet it will taste like a thick "milk shake!"



Ferment 48 hrs and done! Then you can use some of that batch to make the next seven more times, so the grains go quite a long way


Jewels - Can you explain this? Why only seven more times? Wouldn't you be able to continue this like forever as long as you made new batches say 2-3 times a week?

This is important to me because I cannot buy starter. Once we figure out the first batch (perhaps getting some traveler to bring us one pack of starter from the USA while traveling on an airplane!) then we need to learn to make our own starter.

So why only seven more times?

[Rawjac]

VeGenesis, i was also wondering, why only seven times? I'm making my own anyway - if you were in England I'd post you some kefir grains - mine have been happily multiplying since April, and I hope the coconut water/nut mylks will keep them going too. Nothing better than an experiment, so I'm getting started, lol!

I just sent a friend on my gardening forum some grains as hers died - she was using soya milk. How telling is that of soya? I'm guessing almond and cashew nut mylks will probably sustain them... I'm getting all sorts of ideas on my head - wanna try a batch of nut mylk, blended with coconut water, see how that goes, and also a batch of just coconut water and a batch or coconut flesh and coconut water. All excited thinking about this - so many possibilities!

[Seedy]

There is a demo video on Kevin Gianni's Renegade Health site:
http://renegadehealth.com/blog/2009/07/22/how-to-make-coconut-kefir/
Seedy

[Rawjac]

There is a demo video on Kevin Gianni's Renegade Health site:
http://renegadehealth.com/blog/2009/07/22/how-to-make-coconut-kefir/
Seedy

Thanks very much Seedy!

[stellaJewels]

Hey guys! I'm no expert, but I'll share what knowledge I have!

Jac - If you have real grains they will only grow in cow/goat milk, so you can keep that going just to keep your grains multiplying. They'll kefir any kind of milk, but they won't actually multiply except in milk, and better in cow than goat for some reason.

VeG - Using the BE powder grains you can only go about 7 times per packet before they start to lose their potency, but you could try to go longer... I think the bacteria/yeast (ie SCOBY) balance gets out of whack after too long. Best is to use real grains and keep a separate batch in regular milk for growing purposes only.

Acidopholis pills work well to make coconut yogurt (and nut milk/cheeze). I've used Dr Michael Murray formula and it's really tasty. But I wouldn't mess with adding any kind of yeast to it, the kefir yeast is different than bread yeast. And yes, you can use store-bought yogurt as a starter as well, but again, it's yogurt not kefir.

If you're going to invest in grains and can only buy them once, I'd try to get the real grains instead of the powder stuff because you can keep them alive forever. (I had some going for a while but got sick of keeping them alive and just buy the powder now. I have too many other fermentation projects going!)

Hope that helps and happy fermenting! And thanks to Sandor Katz of Wild Fermentation for teaching me the joys of making stuff rot! :D

[Rawjac]

Great info there Stella, thanks!

I must admit I've been lazy lately with kefir and just put the grains in a jar with cow's milk and refrigerated - keeps them alive till I can get them going again. Been making kombucha more lately as I've gone off dairy. Good to know I can keep them growing in dairy and use then to ferment drinks I've got a taste for...

[katchmoleen]

Here is a link that tells you everything you ever wanted to know about kefir:
http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html
It should answer all your questions about whether or not kefir grains can live indefinitely on coconut etc. But if not, that is easily enough remedied...just keep a "nursery" of kefir grains going in milk, to use in other liquids.
Also, Lan, to answer your question, kefir grains are a very unique beastie, a symbiotic relationship between a certain type of bacteria and yeast. You can't make it happen. But, Dom's site above might hook you up even with someone from your area that does kefir. There is also a kefir grain sharing group on yahoo. Are there certain regulations against someone shipping you some kefir grains? I would happily do it once I get some going.

[VeGenesis]

Thanks Jewels - Good short answer, I'm really not sure if this is for me.

A very good link katch - After reading a little I bet someone in Manila is doing this. Importing is not a problem, but shipping cost is.

I really hope you post somewhere on your experience katch. I am very interested in how this affects your Celiac. To be honest, I have a number of concerns...

My Celiac was the kind that was out of the way destroying everything. I am allergic to almost every food you can be allergic to... the list is long but to give you an idea, lactose, corn, peanuts, eggs, soy... etc. etc. and so forth!

There has already been some discussion of if the Villi in my intestine was so damaged by the Celiac that it will take years and may never fully recover. I have been advised to consider all allergies as serious and permanent. The destruction in my gut is so bad that some really evil proteins are passed into my blood from non gluten food. For example corn. My DH is effected by corn as well as corn OR gluten sends me into a Celiac Rage. Not a pretty thing! Not becoming angry in a year and a half is actually one of my greatest joys. I guess this is partly where my idea is that there is no bad food, no dead food, here is only food that is Alive - and Poison!

Part of my raw food lifestyle is living in harmony with creation - nature if you prefer that term. For example for awhile I bought into the idea that "no other creature should be living for my needs." Or the "nothing from a face" concept. I even stopped honey for a while, which without a suitable substitute in the Philippines, was a very big mistake, I don't eat much honey, but from time to time I need a little.

For a while I also though it was wrong to make cows and horses work! As in plow or pull a cart. But I later began to understand these as symbiotic relationships. Much the same as the flora in our gut. Get rid of them and we die!

As I accepted cows and horses work, I also began to see a symbiotic relationship with bees. Now I kept bees on my Missouri farm, I really understand them. Properly kept, the bee keeper forms a symbiotic relationship with the bees who both work for him and enjoy his care and protection - same as a horse or cow who plows a field and eats hay.

Many people have misconceptions about bees. I have read on this forum people who think bee honey is either excrement or vomit - neither is correct. Bees have a special sack to carry nectar in. It does have some enzymes but is not a stomach for eating like a cow or horse has - actually they have one of those also! It is designed for one purpose only, to carry nectar and start the honey making process - to work to make food! In a beekeepers hive, the bees become so efficient that they make extra honey - honey they do not need.

A proper bee keeper will never ever do anything to hurt his bees, he will love them and take care of them. Just like when I was breeding horses, I would never allow anyone to strike them or whip them - in fact I would not even sell them to people who I knew would do that!

This leads me to the cow - a very different process is used. The nectar in the bee is never digested, it never becomes a part of the bee. The food the cow eats is digested and becomes a part of the cow - fat, muscle, blood, etc. From that the cow produces milk to feed its baby directly - a part of its own body.

I know there are some who disagree and I respect that. I am just talking about my experience here, as one who has had a close intimate relationship with horses, bees and cows used for work!

I still have a no face policy - I do not consume anything that takes nutrients from the body of anything that has a face. Honey does not take nutrients from a bee's body the way milk robs nutrients from a cows body, even if the cow cannot replace them in its food.

I think this is pretty much the majority view here and if I read it correctly, I think this is Alissa's view (open to correction if I am incorrect about Alissa's views).

I am not trying to argue a point, I am just explaining where I am at, in my journey, so that I can try to get answers that fit in with where my path has taken me. I have QUESTIONS about Kefir? If you are at a different place, I respect that.

If Kefir requires milk from cows or goats to continue to multiply, can Kefir be considered raw? Can any Kefir product (even grains) be considered "raw living vegan food" if it all depends on a continued supply of cow or goat milk to produce?

Does anyone know if coconut Kefir contains ANY Lactose or ANYTHING left of the milk the Kefir grew in?

Does anyone know is Kefir offered in the Grezzo Restaurant?

These are serious questions for me related to Living on Live Food!

[katchmoleen]

I don't know for sure if Kefir REQUIRES milk to keep going. I bet Dom's site would tell you. As for my celiac, I found it very helpful when I was doing a different route for healing my gut. I think it helped to balance the flora in my gut which was decimated by the celiac and colitis that I had. But I have not had any in several years (my recent attempts at growing it were not successful) and have not tried it in almond milk. Coconuts are out of my reach.

[katchmoleen]

OK, I did a bit of reading on the above site and am excited to find that there is actually a separate species of kefir grains called skg or sugar-water kefir grains. This is non dairy kefir that can be grown in water sweetened with sugar or dried fruit or non acidic fruit juice. I really imagine coconut water could be used for this purpose too, as long as it had enough sugar in it. You have enough coconuts that you could just start experimenting like crazy.
http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html#alternativekefir

[katchmoleen]

Here is a site with a lot of info on making coconut kefir with water kefir grains. Makes me want to make some, it sounds so good!
http://tribes.tribe.net/fabulousfermentation/thread/de42a930-bfea-43d1-8538-92f0f42eb374

[Rawjac]

VeGen - I take on board your points - interesting view point indeed! Personally, I'm not at a point where my being is calling me to be all vegan, but I try to take on board animal welfare when I do use animal products... A recent stay at an organic farm had me learn that the only dairy cow there (lovingly cared for and looked after, and with her calf) would call out for milking when she got too full and uncomfortable - with her calf beside her. Wouldn't this be termed as a symbiotic relationship? I was amazed! BUT having said that, I respect everyone's choice and consider all points put across.

Very interesting indeed about bees and honey too.

Katch - thanks for the links! That ginger water kefir has me drooling!!!

[VeGenesis]

katch - skg vegan kefir does sound like it may really help me. Young coconuts abound here, they cost me about US$0.20 each. (5 for a buck!) And are available year round. I also have raw sugarcane juice available to me part of the year. If I can make these propagate we could supply starters for a lot of people in the Philippines and that means helping literally thousands with intestinal problems with something they can do themselves at home for very low cost.

jac - I understand your point with the cow / calf. From my viewpoint (which I will point out has not always been this way) the relationship you describe is not natural but artificial. The cow bellows because she has overproduced milk for the calf to drink, she is in pain. The reason she has overproduced is because man has milked her. If no one ever milked her, she would only produce what her baby needed, without pain. Her natural pain is to remind her to feed her baby. Any woman who has breastfed her baby can tell you this!

A week after my son was born, my wife had a terrible infection (this was 33 years ago). She was placed in ICU and so I had to be by her side and take care of our two kids, including the newborn! My cousin who also had a baby helped us. Only later did we learn that she just "plugged him in" and nursed him also. We were thrilled as when she got home she was able to continue breast feeding the baby. But my cousin hurt and had to pump her breast for a month. She was still making milk for two kids!

For me, and I know there are other opinions, milking a cow and causing her to make more milk and then milking her again because she is in pain, is actually causing her to be in the pain she is in! It is sort of like infecting someone with flu so you can cure them with a flu shot! She wouldn't be that way in the first place if it wasn't for the actions of man - and man causing her discomfort.

Bees on the other hand make honey because that is what bees do. If they have no room to store the honey, they swarm to look for a new place. This leaves them in a very Fragile place - and sometimes the swarm is attacked and dies. The bee keeper removes some of the honey, making more room in the hive to store the incoming honey. The hive does not need to swarm and the colony becomes stronger.

The cow makes more milk because of the man's actions. The bees make more honey because that is what bees do. The man benefits from the bees and at the same time protects them from the dangers of swarming. The cow is protected from the pain and suffering the man has created.

For me, the real issue is about sacrifice. The bees do not sacrifice their body to make honey, the cow does. I will forever be grateful to my cousin. It was a sacrifice of love she gave my son. She paid for it in pain and her doctor added supplements to her life because feeding two babies had taxed her system and started depleting the calcium in her bones. The cow sacrifices their body to make milk for the calf, just as my cousin did to feed my son. The bees do not do that.

I liked what one person said, we are the only species that drinks the milk of another species, and we are the only species that drinks milk after we are weened (as well as adults!).

Since there is skg vegan kefir grains that grow without milk, I see once again how we people can benefit without the sacrifice of animals. My friend in Missouri grows a yogurt culture in beet juice. I wonder if you could grow beet juice skg vegan kefir grains... but I have no access to beets here! It might be something for someone in America to try. They may be able to freeze the beet juice and kefir it year round! Just a thought...

Jac, I once believed as you do. The path I am taking cause my thinking to evolve to the light I now have. I do not claim that this is perfect - only that it is the best understanding I have at this time.

I think the issue of kefir will be visited again. I am hoping to grow a good crop of coconut water kefir and not only help myself but help thousands of other hurting people!

[Rawjac]

Thanks VeGen - I understand your view point, and know with lactation, demand causes more production. You know what, I feel I'm gradually, gradually going the veggie/vegan way - well, compared to this time last year, lol! I've really gone off milk but other dairy products still have a hold on me. Thanks for sharing your story too - very kind of your cousin doing that for your son! Where I come from, female relatives nursed others' babies too.... My great grandma for example, fed my mother and her siblings when grandma wasn't about. Too risky today though, what with HIV and stuff...

Raw sugarcane juice - now, why don't more people just use that, instead of processed sugar? Again, back at home, sugarcane grows well, yet many will go without sugar because they have no granules...

Can you not grow beets in the Phillipines VeGen? Is the climate wrong for them? They are so easy to grow, even I can do it, lol!

Great plan with the coconut water kefir, go for it! Now, have you tried Kombucha? I love that too, and wonder if I can brew that unconventionally...

[stellaJewels]

Hey Jac - I started a kombucha mother from a bottle of store-bought and am now making my own. It's sooooo good and way less expensive than buying it

[VeGenesis]

Can you not grow beets in the Phillipines VeGen?


I've never seen any and we have almost anything that can be imported. So I am assuming that like peaches and apples they just do not thrive in the Philippine climate.

[Rawjac]

Hey Jac - I started a kombucha mother from a bottle of store-bought and am now making my own. It's sooooo good and way less expensive than buying it

I did exactly the same Stella! I love it, just need more space and jars to brew more! How do you brew yours please? Do you use regular tea and sugar? I do but wondered if I could use herbal teas, coconut water etc