An exerpt on B12, is it an issue for vegans

[Veronica01]

The following is a portion of an interview with Dr. Douglas Graham and Kevin Gianni on the Renegade Health Show. http://www.naturalnews.com/026402_health_food_vegan.html


Kevin: So you mentioned B12. If someone encounters a B12 deficiency, so they are there, then what's the approach to get out of it?

Dr. Graham: There are various approaches, the medical model would be to supplement with B12. This is akin to saying, "I've got a bucket. It's supposed to be full of water, but there's no water in here." The medical model would say, "Let's add water." The hygienic model or the health model would say, "Let's fill the hole. Once you fill the hole your body will refill the bucket automatically." What I've experienced is people with B12 deficiency are put on a fast. They consume no food of any kind other than pure water, who three to four weeks later test perfectly normal for B12 levels. What this showed is that it was an absorption problem not an exposure problem. B12 is everywhere. It's in the air. It's in the mucus membranes of your nose. Every time you inhale, you're breathing in B12; every time you swallow your own saliva, you're swallowing B12. It's not an exposure issue. There's no animal that produces B12. It's all bacterially produced, and yet we keep hearing myths. It has been shown in every diet; there is a certain percentage of people who go B12 deficient. Whether you are vegan, vegetarian, raw fooder, or Standard American Diet, that percentage is the same. B12 deficiency was first discovered in carnivorous or what you would call "people who would eat anything" - kind of a diet. That's where B12 was first discovered and treated.

Kevin: OK. So it wasn't in a vegan...

Dr. Graham:: No, it was not in a vegan in any way. We're not showing that vegans have higher B12 deficiencies. But we do have to look at the reality that most grain products, especially those that are called "enriched grain products," cereal, breads, and pasta, and whatnots, are typically enriched with B12. So, although you might be eating Twinkees, it's enriched with B12, which means you're taking a B12 supplement every day. What we call the normal level of B12 is based on testing people who are supplementing with B12 at every meal. This is an abnormally high level of B12 compared to the normal population or compared to a population which isn't supplementing. We also have to understand that there's always a rebound phenomenon for anything in our body. It's like an over-steering mechanism that says, "If you're very high on something, then you come off of it, you're going to come down before you level out." So if you're high on speed you're going to crash...

Kevin: Right.

Dr. Graham:: ...before you level out. This is true for all drugs and substances in every way. So we see that if you were eating enriched B12 products or products enriched with B12 with every meal and when you totally stop, you may drop down before you level out. B12 testing is not a bad idea, particularly, but I wouldn't test for B12 until someone was showing me B12 deficiency symptoms.

When we understand that we live in a world where the scientist and the doctors and the nutritionist agree that 99 point something of all nutritional disorders in America are those of excess not insufficiency, the concept of supplementing on top of those excesses is sheer lunacy. Not only are they diseases of excess or conditions of excess, but they are conditions of excess in relation to other nutrients. So, isolating nutrients stops making sense. The only place you're going to get those nutrients in balance is in whole, fresh, ripe, raw, organic fruits and vegetables. Those have nutrients in proportion to match our nutrient needs. That's where you're going to get calcium in relation to phosphorus and selenium in relation to zinc and all of the other things that are as they are supposed to be in the body. That's where you are going to get your Omega-3 and Omega-6s in balance with each other, rather than saying I just need more of this, and then more of this, and then more of this, and then more of that.

Kevin: Yeah.

Dr. Graham:: That can never work. Every nutritional supplement results in more imbalance than it started with or it tried to overcome. Obviously, if a person is dying from an iron deficiency, or obviously, if a person is dying from a B12 deficiency, supplement and save a life. But the solution is in changing or modifying or at least experimenting with a lifestyle alteration that will stop causing the symptoms rather than treating the symptoms. It's silly to keep treat(ing) the symptoms and still keep causing them.


I thought this was really interesting. As I was unsure whether to supplement "just in case" or not. :)

[Celeryhead]

Interesting. Thanks for this.

I know this issue is controversial and you can probably find an expert that supports any side, but I know I’ve read somewhere (can’t remember where) that some studies have shown that b12 deficiency is higher in vegans than omnivores – that is, the percentages are not the same across the board.

Anyhow, I think I will get tested (not going to wait for symptoms).

[spicyfull]

Thanks SO Much for Sharing.

[Mike]

Anyhow, I think I will get tested (not going to wait for symptoms).

Is he saying that a water fast will fix the B-12 deficiency? If I don't water fast, then he recommends taking a B-12 supplement?

How much does a B-12 test cost? It sounds easier to eat a B-12 supplement from Whole Foods

[iluvmangos]

Is he saying that a water fast will fix the B-12 deficiency? If I don't water fast, then he recommends taking a B-12 supplement?

How much does a B-12 test cost? It sounds easier to eat a B-12 supplement from Whole Foods

I don't think he was recommending taking a supplement if you don't want to water fast. If he did, that wouldn't make sense because you wouldn't absorb it from your pill either if you had an absorption problem.

[Veronica01]

Raw vegans will always show a dip in B12 vitamins after going from SAD to RAW, it's because of the packaged cereals and breads we stop eating that are fortified with synthetic B12. All the RDA are targeted for the SAD diet so what shows up as low initially on our blood tests after going to RAW is actually normal as the body has real B12 levels showing, and not mixed in with synthetic B12 from processed grains.

Dr. Graham usually reccommends fasts for people that have most kind of body imbalances and fasting will sort of reset yourself after flushing out the toxins that were impeding optimum health.

When you're supplementing with B12 its just the same as eating the fortified breads and cereals with b12 added, it's going to show false "healthy" levels of b12. And you wouldn't know if your body is thriving on raw and absorbing and creating all the b vitamins it needs.

I know it sounds scary to people to "wait and see" and then decide what to do, but honestly you can't know for sure if just blindly supplementing the day you turn raw is going to prevent any issues either. Especially if your relatively new to raw you would have no idea.

I whole heartedly trust Dr. D on this as he's been raw for 30 years and has helped thousands and thousands of people by directly monitoring their diet and exercise. I look for a combination of personal experience and knowledge when deciding who's advice to take when it comes to Natural Hygeine.

I won't be supplementing with b12 or getting a blood test until i've been raw for quite a few more months, maybe a year until i've stabled out and then see what my body needs.

[Celeryhead]

I won't be supplementing with b12 or getting a blood test until i've been raw for quite a few more months, maybe a year until i've stabled out and then see what my body needs.

Waiting for a while does makes sense based on Dr. Graham's advice, and given the long time horizon over which b12 deficiency occurs (if it were to occur at all in your case) you are not likely in imminent danger.

As for testing, I think both blood and urine tests may be required. I need to check into this and find out where best to get tested. One concern I have in this regard is getting tested by someone who has no vested interest in selling me something or some viewpoint, or putting on some kind of diet. So I want to find a truly independent person for this - could be difficult as no one is without some bias.

I understand that Dr. Graham has written some books (or a book), but could not find anything on Amazon. Are they still in print?

[Veronica01]

They're only available in the US, you can't find them on Amazon.ca i've checked lol. if you go to www.awesomerawsome.com My friend Diana Stovelaar in town sells Dr. Graham's books, she orders them in. 80/10/10 was $39 i think.

[LilacLavender]

It's a touchy topic. Doug Graham and Gabriel Cousens are the two raw experts I take most seriously, because both of them have a very logical, verifiable, testable approach to what they say. Both have medical credentials and run experiments to back up the facts they teach.

Cousens and Graham disagree on the B12 issue. Cousens states that the standard B12 test that is most often administered doesn't really show how much B12 is absorbed; it shows how much is in the blood. He uses what he claims is a better B12 level detection test, and according to this, most people are still deficient. This is, he states, due to the fact that we live in a society that is overly hygienic, and while we're busy wiping out all the bad germs that our bodies would otherwise learn to ward off, we wipe out many sources of natural B12.

Plus, animals in the wild who are herbivorous will generally consume insects on occasion. This is a source of B12 for them. Other animals consume their own feces--B12 is produced in the intestines, yes, but it's too far down the large intestine to be properly absorbed unless...well, recycled.

[Rufassa]

I know this issue is controversial and you can probably find an expert that supports any side, but I know I’ve read somewhere (can’t remember where) that some studies have shown that b12 deficiency is higher in vegans than omnivores – that is, the percentages are not the same across the board.

I have read warnings that vegan should be more concerned about B12 but when you look deeper these warning are not based on any study that shows vegans, or even raw vegans, as having a higher percentage. It is usually based on the fallacious argument that, B12 is only found in meat (which is false), and many people get B12 deficiencies (including meat eaters), so someone who does not eat meat must be more carefull.

Look closer, I have yet to see the study that shows vegans at higher risk and I have been looking for it. If anyone can produce it then please send it to me.

[Veronica01]

But i don't think animals get b12 from eating the actual bugs as an animal source. Dr. Graham says people are breathing in and consuming b12 every day in the form of bacteria. So naturally bugs and feces have bacteria on them, it is not because b12 is strictly absorbed by the ingestion of animals and bugs. We all have b12 in our intestinal tract as well, which is maybe why people assume you have to eat other animals to get B12.

Also a lot of raw foodists are meticulous with their organic soaps and washing fruits veggies and lettuces in fruit wash or vinegar. Really i don't see a point to that because as raw fooders our immune systems are far superior to SAD people and a little bacteria on fresh foods that remains when just rinsed with water or wiped with a towel is not going to poison you. I mean i flick off some excess dirt and bugs, but i prefer to eat crisp greens than ones that have been soaked and "cleaned" in soap water or vinegar.

Victoria Boutenko and her family buy organic greens and never wash them, they also rarely peel their organic fruits and vegetables and they don't worry about b12 supplements.

[T-Bird]

lilaclavender,

That makes the most sense to me. I know some of the raw vegans have "crossed the line" and include the occasional insect in their diets.

I can't follow them there! I do not judge them - good for them if that makes sense to them - but I won't make out with them either!:eek:

I was very saddened to hear that cultured foods like sauer kraut and cashew sour creme may not supply the needed b-12.

Certainly - more research is needed. Hopefully - we will all know more about this, on a more definitive level, a few years down the road.

[Raw Angel Mom]

Wow, great information. Thank you for posting that.

[rawlight]

Yes, thanks Veronica for posting this and to all who are contributing to the discussion.

[Celeryhead]

Look closer, I have yet to see the study that shows vegans at higher risk and I have been looking for it. If anyone can produce it then please send it to me.

I am pretty sure my recollection is from Gabriel Cousens' Spiritual Nutrition.

I don't have the book at hand but I did a google book search and was able to find the following quote:

"Consistent research over the last decade has shown that vegans and live-food practitioners of all ages and sexes have a much higher risk of becoming B12 deficient. There are more than fifteen studies on vegans and an additional three studies on live-food vegans."

There are also some footnote references for this, but I could not access them. But if you get a hold of the book, you can follow up.

[Raw Angel Mom]

I think you mean this article

http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12article.html

Vitamin B12 Importance
by Dr. Gabriel Cousens
To understand the significance of this issue, we need to understand a little about the importance of B-12 in the diet. The average non- vegetarian stores between 2,000 and 3,000 picograms (pg., same as micrograms) of B-12 and loses about 3 pg. per day. About 60 percent of the total amount of the B-12 in the body is stored in the liver and 30 percent is stored in the muscle. The body has a special circulation pattern between the digestive tract and the liver. Through the bile, we secrete 1.4 pg. per day of B-12 into the small intestine, and healthy people reabsorb about 0.7 pg. Research suggests that if people have a low B-12 intake, the absorption increases to even draw more B-12 into the system. However, there is still a general potential for slow loss, depending on the variation in this special, what is known as enterohepatic circulation, before we develop the potential of B-12 deficiency symptoms.

B-12 has two functions: one, methylocobalamin is used by the enzyme methionine synthase to change homocysteine into methionine. When this enzyme is not working, we increase the homocysteine in our system, which recent research has associated with the increased potentiality of heart disease and deterioration of the arteries and nerves. When the homocysteine is high, it appears to be a nerve toxin, as well as a blood vessel toxin. The second function of B-12 is as a coenzyme is using 5'-deoxyadenosylcobalamin in the enzyme methyl malonyl-CoA mutase in the conversion of methyl malonyl-coA to succinyl-CoA.

Elevated homocysteine also happens with deficiencies in B-6 or folic acid. One of the major symptoms of B-12 or folic acid deficiency is macrocytic anemia. Folate, also called folic acid, is needed to turn the uracil into thymidine, an essential building block of DNA. This DNA is needed for production of new red blood cells and for red blood cell division. B-12 is involved because it is involved in the pathway that creates methyl cobalamin. This B-12 also produces a form of folate needed to make DNA. So, if there is no B-12, folate can become depleted and DNA production slows down.

Another little side part of the methyl malonyl-CoA to succinyl-CoA conversion is that when the B-12 is not available, the methyl malonyl-CoA levels increase and are converted to methyl malonic acid, which accumulates in the blood and urine. Since the B-12 is the only co-enzyme required in this pathway, methyl malonic acid levels are considered the gold standard as an indicator of B-12 deficiency. Other causes of high methyl malonic acid (MMA) are genetic defects, kidney failure, low blood volume, dysbiosis, pregnancy and hypothyroid. The MMA test is important because the progressive medical community no longer considers serum B-12 levels an accurate measurement of appropriate amounts of B-12. In other words, a normal serum B-12 may not mean that B-12 levels are healthy. We need a urinary assay of methyl malonic acid to really determine that. This is an important point, because when I first wrote about this issue in Conscious Eating, the establishment of the methyl malonic acid assay as the gold standard had not taken place yet. I based some of my statements at that time on the world research, which was using serum B-12. A serum B-12 of 200 pg. or less was considered deficient. As a result of the new gold standard and what we know about MMA and homocysteine, the B-12 serum levels should be around 450 pg. to maintain a normal homocysteine level. Therefore, serum B-12 levels less than 450 pg. may be considered as indicating a B-12 deficiency.

There are a variety of symptoms of B-12 deficiency, which are important to vegans and live fooders. The first is actually low energy. It could be a reason why some people just don't feel well on these diets, besides not getting the right protein/carbohydrate/fat mix for their constitutional type. There are specific neurological symptoms, often described as "subacute combined degeneration". Some of this damage can be almost irreversible, if it becomes chronic. This nerve system degeneration affects peripheral nerves and the spinal cord. Some of the typical neurological feelings include depression, numbness and tingling in the hands and feet, nervousness, paranoia, hyperactive reflexes, impaired memory and behavioral changes. With a B-12 deficiency, one can also have diarrhea, fever, frequent upper respiratory infections, impotence, infertility, sore tongue, enlargement of the mucous membranes of the mouth, vagina, and stomach, macrocytic anemia, low platelets, increased bleeding, low white blood cell count. Some of the causes of B-12 deficiency are low dietary intake of B-12 and/or poor absorption, which usually comes through loss of intrinsic factor and/or a lack of stomach acid.

Consistent research over the last decade has shown that vegans and live food people of all ages and sexes have a much higher risk of becoming B-12 deficient. This does not mean that everyone becomes B- 12 deficient. This deficiency is particularly true with newborn babies, especially babies of vegan live-food nursing mothers who are not using B-12 supplementation. In contrast to the average adult storage of 2,000-3,000 pg. of B-12, newborns of mothers with normal B-12 have about 25 pg. Studies have shown that the milk during the first week of life does contain large amounts of B-12. This means that the B-12 storage in infants at birth is normally adequate to last the first few weeks of life. Afterwards, they must get it from breast milk or other sources. If a vegan or live-food mother is already B-12 deficient during pregnancy, the baby may be born with seriously low B-12 levels and develop clinical signs of deficiency as soon as two weeks. The general research suggests that even among non-vegetarians, B-12 can be insufficient in infants, and that perhaps all breastfeeding mothers should consider B-12 supplements for themselves and their infants during the time of breastfeeding. This lack of B-12 in the mother's diet during pregnancy has been associated with a lack of myelin production, which is the coating of the nerves. It takes somewhere between one to twelve months to develop, and manifests as failure to thrive and slow developmental progression. The babies are often lethargic, lose their ability to use muscle adequately, and even their sensory attunement decreases. They also have irregular macrocytic anemia.

The good news that one major study in the United Kingdom in 1988 showed, in studying 37 vegan children was that there was normal growth and development in children who were breastfed for 6 months at a minimum, when there was B-12 supplementation.

Young childrenand teenage children who were supplemented with B-12 were found to grow normally. Adults who were vegetarian without B- 12 supplementation for greater than six years usually had a lower B- 12 than non-vegetarian adults in the general research. In one study of adults in 1994, 81% of the vegan adults had a B-12 lower than 200 pg. That is approximately the percentage of adults on a live food diet who are low in B-12. In my clinical experience, meat eaters, vegans and live-fooders tend to have a fairly high percentage of B- 12 deficiency, although meat eaters do have less incidence. My experience is that cooked food vegans have a higher incidence of B- 12 deficiency than live fooders, but there is still a significant occurance in live fooders. In vegetarians and vegans, there is also a high percentage under 200 pg., about 54%. A study in 1982 by Dunn and Scott of raw food vegans with 83 subjects from the Natural Hygiene Society showed that 92% of the vegans had a B-12 less than 200 pg., and in 53% it was less than 100 pg. The World Health Organization (WHO) considers B-12 deficiency to be less than 200 pg. The percentages of B-12 deficiency tend to increase over time on a natural hygiene diet. Another study in Finland in 1995 that examined B-12 status of long-term 100% raw vegans found that 66% of the people had a B-12 lower than 200 pg. One study done in 2000 by Donaldson at Hallelujah Acres on primarily live food diet people, but with some B-12 supplementation via nutritional yeast, showed only about 15% of the people were less than 200, and none of them less than 160. The supplementation with nutritional yeast was 5 pg. of B-12 from one tablespoon of Red Star Vegetarian Support.

(See next post)

[Raw Angel Mom]

(Continued)

Up until this time, many of us have felt that additional supplementation for live fooders with sea vegetables or probiotic formulas was sufficient for protection against B-12 deficiency. This does not seem to be the case. In macrobiotics, who primarily cook their food, we see a very high percentage of children actually having growth retardation due to low B-12 intake. Many of us have felt that spirulina, Klamath Lake Algae, all the sea vegetables had enough active B-12 to avoid a B-12 deficiency. Although the research is not fully in, we do know that, as I pointed out in Conscious Eating, these substances do have human active B-12. The problem is they also have a significant amount of analog B-12 that competes with the human active B-12. This analog amount was not measured in my studies. Using the methyl malonic acid reduction approach, which is now the gold standard, research showed that when people used dry and raw nori from Japan, the dried nori actually made the methyl malonic acid (MMA) status worse, which means it actually reduced the B-12 status. Therefore it could possibly worsen a B-12 deficiency. Raw nori seemed to keep the methyl malonic acid at the same level, meaning it did not harm the B-12 status, but the research showed it did not particularly help it either. No food in Europe or the U.S. has been tested for lowering methyl malonic acid. Research absolutely has to be done to answer this question fully.

There is one exception to this lack of vegetarian B-12 active food, which is that we do produce B-12 from bacteria in our large intestine, but since this B-12 is produced in the area below where B- 12 is reabsorbed, it is really not available for absorption. Some people have argued that a lot of species of lower mammals do not need B-12. The reason why this is true is that a lot of species that are primarily vegetarian animals eat their feces. Human research also has shown if you eat your feces, you will get enough B- 12. Dr. Herbert sponsored research in England where vegan volunteers with a documented B-12 deficiency were fed B-12 extractions made from their own feces. It cured their B-12 deficiency. So, there is a natural vegan way to do it. It may not be the most tasteful way, however.

Some have theorized that organic foods, in various regions, would improve the B-12 tests by lowering the serum malonic acid, but again, the research has not shown that washed or unwashed organic food has made a difference. Many animals, aside from eating their own feces, will ingest a variety of eggs, insects, small vertebrates or soils. For example, gorillas, who are the closest to vegan of all the species, will eat insects and sometimes their feces. So there are ways to do this for vegans, but again, they may not be the most aesthetic or tasteful. I would love, at this point, to come up with an alternative to this, however it doesn't seem to be the case.

There are many ideas of vegan foods that have active B-12, but few are proving to actually raise B-12 or prevent its loss. The research has shown, for example, that tempeh does not supply human active B-12. Research in both the U.S. and the Netherlands has confirmed this. There was one paper that showed that tempeh from one particular source in Thailand did have some B-12, but what they basically found was that fermented soybean did not contain B-12. Other foods such as barley, malted syrup, sourdough bread, parsley, shitake mushrooms, tofu, and soybean paste, had some B-12 in them. Amazake rice, barley miso, miso, natto, rice miso, shoyu, tamari, umeboshi, and a variety of nuts, seeds and grains did not contain any elements or even any detectable B-12 analog. My study using the earlier gold standard test for B-12 active bacteria did show indeed that arame, dulse, kelp, kombu and wakame had significant human active B-12. Other studies have shown that dulse did have a certain amount of B-12 analog per serving. Until research is done to see if it actually lowers the methyl malonic acid levels, the question has to be raised that we can't assume that because a food has human active B-12 it will help avoid a B-12 deficiency, because the actual non-human active analogs may be blocking the human active B-12. The same question arises now with the aphanizomenon flos-aqua and spirulina, as well as chlorella. So, until we actually do the gold standard test of these, through the methyl malonic test, to see if it actually lowers the methyl malonic acid, I think it is reasonable to eat these foods, but not expect that they are actually going to raise your human active B-12. My serum B-12 of 600 pg. may have thrown off my conclusions when I wrote my summary in 1990. I may have been in that 20% of vegans and live food people that don't seem to be affected. But I am more concerned about the other 80% that are B-12 deficient and that 50% whose B-12 levels go down to less than 100 pg. A study done in 1991 by Miller found that serum B-12 appeared to be unrelated to consumption of wakame, kombu, and other sea vegetables or tempeh in macrobiotic children. Other researchers feel that it is possible that raw nori, not dried nori, is a source of active B-12. Some of these conclusions are not finalized. This brings me to the next issue, which is, what is a normal level of B- 12?

Now the next question really is, what is a healthy level of B-12 in the serum? The answer is that a serum level of 450 pg. keeps the homocysteine level within normal levels. Some might just say that dulse and raw nori and an algae called cocolithophorid algae, also known as pleurochritias cartera, may provide sufficient human active B-12. They have not been fully tested with the gold standard. The normal serum homocysteine level is 2.2 - 13.2 micromoles/liter. The normal adult urine MMA is .58 - 3.56 micromoles/mmol/cr. The normal level of B-12 for breast milk is 180 - 300 pg. per ml. The normal urine level for children is 820 - 11,200 micromoles/mmol/cr of MMA. The normal serum B-12 level of children is 160 - 1300 pg. per ml.

(see next post)

[Aleesha Sattva]

what we also need to remember here... is raw vegan diet is very very different from cooked/processed vegan diet.

[Raw Angel Mom]

(Continued)


Using the methyl malonic acid study as the gold standard, elevated methyl malonic acid was found in subjects with a B-12 up to 486 pg. This is a really important statement, because up 'til this time, most of the studies in the world health basically say that 200 pg. and above is not considered deficient. That was somewhat how I based my ideas that B-12 in many vegans and raw foodists was low normal, but still within normal. Using the gold standard methyl malonic acid test, studies show that without supplementing with B- 12, vegans have higher homocysteine levels than lacto-ovo vegetarians and non-vegetarians, which means they are deficient in B- 12. The good news, of course, is that B-12 supplementation will decrease these high homocysteine levels back to normal range. High homocysteine levels are connected with the potential for heart disease, arterial destruction and neurological pathologies. Other diseases associated with an elevated homocysteine are: Alzheimer's, age related hearing loss, neural tube defects, recurrent loss of pregnancy, increased mortality. Many non-vegetarians also have a poor B-12 status because there are many factors that can cause B-12 deficiency. They include malabsorption or inadequate intake of protein or calories or B-12, radiation exposure, drugs, and a variety of toxins, paraminosalicylic acid, alcohol, pancreatic tumors, failure of the small intestine to contract and move food associated with bacterial overgrowth, oral contraceptives, fungal infections, liver and kidney disease, tobacco smoking and B-6 or iron deficiency. The research conclusion is that: it is a reasonably safe bet that about 80% of the vegan and live food population, over time, runs the risk of a subclinical or clinical B- 12 deficiency and increased homocysteine levels. An even higher percentage of newborns run this risk. My suggestion, out of my concern for all of my clients, for my fellow live fooders and vegans is that it is well advised to supplement with an actual B-12 human active supplement. There are vegan B-12 supplements, which allow us to be totally successful vegan live fooders.

My general recommendation is that if you have symptoms of B-12 deficiency, you can even start with a 100 pg. injection, or according to the research, an oral administration of 1,000 pg. per day for two to four weeks is equal to repeated monthly injections. After about a month of the oral, the dose can be cut in half. One can even cut that in half again. I don't really recommend nutritional red star yeast, because of the fungal potential; I think that the safest and healthiest approach is via supplementation.

Some people eat according to their philosophy and belief of what is natural, and this may be an impediment. For example, the black Hebrews, a group of African-Americans who have migrated to Israel, have horrendously high levels of infant B-12 deficiency, as well as adult B-12 deficiency. They did not believe in taking supplements. Data in a 1982 study showed that of the infants who were breastfed for three months, and then were given diluted homemade soymilk for three months to one year, 25 of them (a significant percentage) had protein deficiency, iron and B-12 anemia, as well as zinc deficiency. In the 1982 study, three of the infants were dead on arrival, five more died within a few hours of hospital admission, despite treatment. Serum levels were low in 9 of 15 cases and undetectable in three of them. I don't feel this is a very good example of what we want to show to the world in the way we want to treat our children. We can make those choices. We have a theory of natural, and we also have a theory of what it means to be healthy.

This is the first time in history that we can be completely successful live food vegans. What I mean by being successful is completely healthy, including no B-12 deficiency and no elevated homocysteine levels. It is my medical opinion, as a vegan since 1973 and live fooder since 1983, and as a person committed to supporting all those who choose to become healthy live food vegans, that it would be wise to incorporate some B-12 supplementation in your diet. I believe it is more natural to be healthy than it is to be anything less than that.

Gabriel Cousens, M.D., M.D.(H), Dip. Ayurveda

----------------------------------------------

[chetsunset]

(Continued)


It is my medical opinion, as a vegan since 1973 and live fooder since 1983, and as a person committed to supporting all those who choose to become healthy live food vegans, that it would be wise to incorporate some B-12 supplementation in your diet. I believe it is more natural to be healthy than it is to be anything less than that.

Gabriel Cousens, M.D., M.D.(H), Dip. Ayurveda

----------------------------------------------


Thanks for posting this article.

I found the study Gabriel Cousens mentioned in the article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6897159

Natural Hygiene Society Conference

Dong & Scott3 (1982, USA) examined 83 subjects from an American Natural Hygiene Society conference. They tended to follow natural hygiene diets consisting of whole raw fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds, with a minimal intake of grains and legumes. They considered this to be a natural primate diet and believed their bodies received B12 through small intestinal bacteria which live only in the intestines of those who follow whole raw food diets. The table below shows the results among subjects who did not supplement with B12.

Results of Dong & Scott3
# sB12 < 200 pg/ml sB12 < 100 pg/ml
Vegans 13 92% 53%
LV 28 64%
LOV 15 47% 13%
SV 10 20%
LOV - Lacto-ovo-vegetarians
LV - Lacto-vegetarians
SV - Semi-vegetarians


92% of vegans showed B12 level lower than 200 pg/ml. 200-500 pg/ml is considered normal in the US but in Europe and Japan 500-1300 pg/ml is the normal range.

[Veronica01]

I agree Aleesha.

Dr. Doug Graham lives 100% raw with no processed raw foods. Gabriel Cousens also teaches people to eat raw, a lot of higher fat raw foods and even some cooked foods at his retreats. He's not 100% raw himself even.

There is going to be a difference in b12 levels when you are eating a higher content of water rich produce and greens, versus heavier nut and avocado based foods with cooked grains as well.

Also which one sells products and supplements and who teaches natural health and nutrtion?

Think about it.

[T-Bird]

We need a urinary assay of methyl malonic acid to really determine that. This is an important point, because when I first wrote about this issue in Conscious Eating, the establishment of the methyl malonic acid assay as the gold standard had not taken place yet.

This is really fascinating! Wonder if they've developed a home test on this yet???

That would be awesome!

Thanks for this highly technical and elucidating post.:)

[Celeryhead]

Dr. Doug Graham lives 100% raw with no processed raw foods. Gabriel Cousens also teaches people to eat raw, a lot of higher fat raw foods and even some cooked foods at his retreats. He's not 100% raw himself even.

Dr. Cousens says he's been 100% raw since 1983 - did someone catch him with his hand in the cookie jar?

Dr. Graham makes money off promoting his diet and selling his advice. I don't think there is anything wrong with this, but I don't think you can distinguish him from Dr. Cousens on this basis.

[Veronica01]

A youtube exerpt on Gabriel Cousens Tree of Life program.

At 2:55 it starts teaching people how to eat healthy cooked food at his retreat. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aadhn-6_Vho&feature=PlayList&p=F4AAD8A08EE20E14&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=73

Although it says it's transitional, is it not strange they aren't teaching people how to just start including more raw foods and focusing on that, rather than how to keep cooking foods down the road?

I have a friend that used to work for Gabriel Cousens at his retreat and she actually has no idea what he eats himself. He never talks about it anymore, it's all about eating as little as possible now and a lot of spirituality.

I think it's very hard to compare Dr. Graham's approach to Dr. Cousens as Dr. Graham is straight up and fully discloses his lifestyle and nutrition habits and I have yet to see any current info from Dr. Cousens or from anyone that knows him what he is eating for optimum health. Hard to be caught with his hand in a cookie jar if he doesn't even mention what he eats in general, let alone in a daily example.

Most of us would never take advice from a SAD doctor on health and nutrition ever again, because they are not a living testament to health and certainly don't practice what they preach by any means. I'm just asking if there is any proof that Dr. Cousens practices what he preaches about eating living foods since 1983 in an interview. It's more than a little vague.

[Veronica01]

Rebecca used to work at the Tree of Life, her blog is here: www.EatFruitBeHappy.blogspot.com .
I have never met Dr. Cousens or worked with him, but i think someone who was living and promoting his program has a valuable opinion.

This is what she said about working in the kitchen at the retreat:

"in the kitchen, we were eating well above 2000 calories a day in fat. sampling, tasting, nibbling, and then eating the meals.

typical day:
granola with nut mylk for breakfast
dehydrated nut-based entree for lunch along with salads with nut or avocado dressings
soup and crackers and salad with nut dressings for dinner; often a creamy nut-based soup at that.

We were all tired of the food. we all knew it was 'transition' food and we craved eating "simpler." alas, a "simpler" meal for me might have been an avocado covered in spirulina, salt and cayenne, an drizzled with olive oil, along with a big salad of greens, a tahini dressing and a huge amount of ground flax seeds mixed with dressing to create a kind of porridge. I had that a lot. we also (those of us in the kitchen) made vast amounts of superfood smoothies - almond based, with cacao, maca, mesquite, spirulina, E3 live, goji berries, lucuma powder, etc etc. I asked someone once about the virtues of mono-mealing vs these crazy multi-ingredient smoothies we were drinking, and his response was "when we blend it all together, it becomes unified and whole, and this is a mono-meal, one food!

I lived to tell about it but I was miserable. we were constantly tweaking our own diets. for about the last 6 weeks I was there (summer in the desert) I tried to stop eating nuts, and it was my first experience of realizing how addictive they were. I also put a moratorium on using the dehydrator - I mean, it was 105 degrees and dry as a bone outside, what were we doing dehydrating food?? People needed fluids.

I thought going there to work would make me slim, trim, vibrant, healthy, beautiful, and spiritually awakened. It was a gorgeous place, but my own health didn't follow. and rather than looking to what in the diet was flawed, overall, the general guidance was that we should all look to the Dr. to see what we personally needed to change, add, leave out, punish ourselves with. sigh. it was rough."

I just find Dr. Cousens program incongruous with true health, and his program is based on low glycemic food. Obviously he is not eating 2000 calories a day the way his workers and the people at his retreat were. He even says in that Tree of Life video that he promotes high carbohydrate and low fat and low protein, but he's not telling people he eats high fruit, he doesn't teach people to eat high fruit.

What else is high in carbohydrates that is not fruit? Grains, maybe even cooked grains. I can't say I know he's not 100% raw, but isn't all of this kind of confusing where he's not keeping any consitancy to what he's teaching and living himself?

It never hurts to be informed and to ask yourself if you aspire to be like the person who's advice you are listening to. That's all I'm saying. I'm just very confused and unsure about his program.

[Rufassa]

I found the study Gabriel Cousens mentioned in the article:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6897159

This proves my point:

However, their complete blood count values did not deviate greatly from those found for nonvegetarians, even though some had been vegans or lactovegetarians for over 10 years.

But this is not that impressive being that their weren’t but 86 people in the entire study and only 13 of them Vegans. Entirely too small of a sample size.

Plus lower than the normal (based on SAD standards) does not mean deficient. It just means lower.

[Celeryhead]

I'm just asking if there is any proof that Dr. Cousens practices what he preaches about eating living foods since 1983 in an interview.

Here’s an excerpt of an interview of Dr. Cousens by Kevin Gianni (same guy who interviewed Dr. Graham as per you opening post). I thinks it’s recent, but I can’t be sure.

http://www.naturalnews.com/026161_food_raw_food_diabetes.html

He does not say specifically what he eats but does say he has been on a live food diet since 1983.

I am sure there are differences between his diet and Dr. Graham’s, and I’m not saying or suggesting we need to or should discuss whose approach is better (I readily admit I have not read enough of what Graham has to say yet – only some internet stuff - so I am not going suggest which may be better for me or for anyone).

I do think the Dr. Cousens is a sincere person, so I will at least consider what he has to say (among other sources). I agree that it never hurts to be informed. This is, though, as I noted earlier, a controversial subject, and I don’t see a clear answer.

[Veronica01]

yeah it's all very similar, he just says when he started and does not say what he eats. I do find it frustrating because so many raw foodists are vocal about what has helped them and where they started and where they are now.

I think it's very valuable for people interested in this lifestyle to have information and examples to learn from. Some of us like to do it on our own of course but I think learning as much as you can to be informed about the way you live is very valuable.

I have a hard time believing people whole heartedly stand behind their beliefs and lifestyles when they can't disclose what it is they do. The majority of people who experience great health and happiness are sharing it with everyone and giving it away.

Even if I didn't buy books from people like Alissa, Dr. Graham and Victoria Boutenko, i'd still get a pretty good idea of their lifestyle and overall health from the internet and from people that have met them. But it is not so with Dr. Cousens, so there must be a reason he doesn't tell people.

[LilacLavender]

Sorry to burst the bubble, but both names mentioned in this discussion push products. That's how they make their living. So does Alissa and most any other raw expert out there, but it doesn't diminish their messages!

My point is that both Cousens and Graham conduct studies to come out with the facts they state. Seeing as not too many studies are done at ALL, it's hard to look at their conflicting results and say definitively that one is right and the other is wrong....especially because both have different reasons why their theory makes sense.

I supplement B12 just to be safe. Rather safe than sorry, and I'm pretty sure it's not hurting me. Maybe that B12 that's supposed to be in the air isn't as ubiquitous as we think, or perhaps it's not human active. I don't know...maybe it's there...but until someone can prove it definitively, I'm going to continue to supplement.

[Aleesha Sattva]

i don't supplement, never have. my levels are EXCELLENT!!!

[Celeryhead]

My point is that both Cousens and Graham conduct studies to come out with the facts they state.

Really? Let’s see you back that up.

[Veronica01]

What products is Dr. Graham pushing? He sells books, retreats and one on one counselling. So i don't see what you mean.

Also I would never consider what Alissa sells, pushing product, it's kitchenware, books and food products, not supplements and treatments. Of course a chef selling treats is something totally different than pushing their own superfoods or supplements.

[rawlight]

I just find Dr. Cousens program incongruous with true health, and his program is
It never hurts to be informed and to ask yourself if you aspire to be like the person who's advice you are listening to. That's all I'm saying. I'm just very confused and unsure about his program.

What bothers me about this whole post, Veronica is that Rebecca is not shown asking Dr. Cousens any of the questions or problems she is having. This is always an unfair and dangerous thing. Whenever I read something like this, *I* get frustrated, because the person is basically spreading rumors and causing people to question. You, in fact, are making a whole deal of innuendos about Dr. Cousens regarding questions you should be asking him yourself!

Rumor, gossip are killers.....

[Veronica01]

He did not answer any of her questions when she was there, that is why she was confused. She was living on his transitional program for 6 months and felt worse than before she started, she had no reason to doubt him and personally thought she was failing and could not survive on raw food. Since off that plan she is thriving on a high carbohydrate low fat diet.

I have not met him, nor would I pay to ask questions on a program that I don't want to try, as I know from experience I don't thrive on high fat, or on a restricted calorie diet.

I have been trying to find information specifically supporting his claim of being a 100% live foodist but it's hard when there's no examples in interviews or books of what has helped him and what he eats now to thrive.

[rawlight]

He did not answer any of her questions when she was there, that is why she was confused. She was living on his transitional program for 6 months and felt worse than before she started, she had no reason to doubt him and personally thought she was failing and could not survive on raw food.

Nowhere does she say she approached him. She and the people working in the kitchen are far from the kinds of people who would come to that facility in the first place. If people come there sick and not used to eating healthy raw food, Cousens philosophy is to transition them. If she did not like that than she *should* have quit, BUT, as a raw foodist herself, (and if you read her blog, she is not 100% and 'still falls off the raw wagon') she knew what made her feel good and had the control, working in the kitchen, to eat what she wanted. Sounds like a good deal to me!


I have not met him, nor would I pay to ask questions on a program that I don't want to try, as I know from experience I don't thrive on high fat, or on a restricted calorie diet.

But you don't know what or how he would advise a confirmed raw foodist such as yourself. Someone who wants a diet high in fruit. You're only looking at his program for those new to raw, are you not?

It now seems like she is a follower of Dr. Graham and finds that a diet high in fruit makes her feel better. That means she wouldn't be comfortable following many raw food experts.


I have been trying to find information specifically supporting his claim of being a 100% live foodist but it's hard when there's no examples in interviews or books of what has helped him and what he eats now to thrive.

Write *him*, call *him*....don't rely on someone else's research or an ex-employee to get your 'facts!'

[Aleesha Sattva]

such good advice rawlight!!!

[LilacLavender]

Right, but remember that Cousen's statement is that the standard test given for B12 detects levels in the blood rather than levels of actual absorption, which could be very low even with high B12 blood levels. And if this or something like it happens to be the case, I feel the supplement is a wise insurance policy. It's certainly not going to harm me to take it, and it's not expensive.