B12 Hype

[Rufassa]

OK, I am hearing a little too much about this B12 thing. I know that everyone must figure out things for themselves, but I really some of you need to dig deeper into this B12 thing before you run out, in fear, taking supplements and injections.

Most of us here don't drink, smoke, drink caffeine (most of us), etc.. We eat a diet that, for the most part, makes our digestive process more efficient. And many of us has some portion of our foods organically grown. If the last few sentences seem to be off topic then I suggest you learn more about B12, its synthesis, and how it is used, made and recycled by your body.

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?t=2910

P.S. Meats are NOT a source of B12; bacteria are. The bacteria in your gut are just as capable of producing B12 as the bacteria in a cows gut. Plus new technologies are debunking the myth that B12 is not found in fruits and vegetables but even if it is not ask your self this instead, "Is Cobalt found in these foods?" But really you should just be asking your self if you are doing anything to damage you digestion in such a way that would cause me to be LOSING B12.

Sorry for the rant but it seems as if everyone is obsessed with the supplement marketing campaign.

[Raw Angel Mom]

Thank you for posting, it should be a very interesting topic to follow.

I know about the bacteria. I was reading dr. Gabriel Cousens and he says that the bacteria are typically too low in your guts. Animals that do have B12 do eat their feaces and so are gorilla etc... So i don't know a human being willing to do that, lol.... Certainly not me, i choosed supplement, lol... But the good news, we do have a reserve for at least 3 years. We do need to monitor if B12 goes down or stabilize, for it cans lead to dangerous side effect.

I am supplementing because i know that i was low but as you said, i suspect probably for other reason. I wonder about you said also, if we just eat a pure food and why we do need to supplement? I bought myself a book to figure out which food contain what.

I am going for a blood work check to see my level and will monitor that. Better be safe then sorry, until that i have clear answer on this topic.

For now, i am going with DR. Cousens phylosophie, it is more normal to be healthy then not to supplement if we need it. I don't believe at all at vitamine C or single vitamin or anything supplement. According to China Study, you need the whole food to be able to absorb the vitamine C or anything.

I shall follow this thread to see if i am going to learn about this mystery of B12.

[TaupeRawMan]

Hi Rufussa -

I agree that there is a lot of hype about supplementation. However, I also think this issue has been found to be of concerns. This was determined to be an area of concern by medical professionals at the International Living Food Summit http://www.livingfoodsummit.blogspot.com/.

I am definitely not saying everyone should run out and take a supplement, but I would also not want someone who was deficient to just assume they are okay.

[T-Bird]

if we just eat a pure food and why we do need to supplement?

I have accepted the fact that I will always remain vigilant about keep bugs and fecal matter out of my food.

I can't help it - that's the way I am.

As such - I will need to supplement. There is not conclusive proof that cultured food can give you sufficient b12.

If you are content with allowing bugs into your food, and accepting bird and mouse poop on your greens without washing it off. More power to you!

But I can't go there with you.

I accept this about myself, and choose to supplement.

The potential damages form long term b12 deficiency is truly terrible.

I would much rather be a raw vegan for the rest of my life and supplement b-12 unnecessarily, than to not supplement when I really need to be and suffer the consequences.

In other news - I nibble on my cuticles. I consider this B-12 'recycling' LOL!

[Rufassa]

Thank you for posting, it should be a very interesting topic to follow.

I know about the bacteria. I was reading dr. Gabriel Cousens and he says that the bacteria are typically too low in your guts. Animals that do have B12 do eat their feaces and so are gorilla etc... So i don't know a human being willing to do that, lol.... Certainly not me, i choosed supplement, lol... But the good news, we do have a reserve for at least 3 years. We do need to monitor if B12 goes down or stabilize, for it cans lead to dangerous side effect.

I am supplementing because i know that i was low but as you said, i suspect probably for other reason. I wonder about you said also, if we just eat a pure food and why we do need to supplement? I bought myself a book to figure out which food contain what.

I am going for a blood work check to see my level and will monitor that. Better be safe then sorry, until that i have clear answer on this topic.

For now, i am going with DR. Cousens phylosophie, it is more normal to be healthy then not to supplement if we need it. I don't believe at all at vitamine C or single vitamin or anything supplement. According to China Study, you need the whole food to be able to absorb the vitamine C or anything.

I shall follow this thread to see if i am going to learn about this mystery of B12.

Many of the points you are making are addressed here
http://libaware.economads.com/b12issue.php

[LiveLife]

Its nice to have brought up this topic as a reminder to think more into the underlying problems for such issues. Alissa gives lots of references to this debate in a couple of threads in the "Need to know more about raw?" section on this website.

[Rufassa]

As such - I will need to supplement. There is not conclusive proof that cultured food can give you sufficient b12.

There is not ANY proof that raw foodiest, or even veg*ns, have a greater chance of being deficient. But yet when people turn to raw foods they feel like this is some necessary evil.


But the good news, we do have a reserve for at least 3 years.
This 3 year figure is based on if you are losing B12 in large amounts. If your enterohepatic circulation is working properly then that number is more like 20 years. And if you are eating nutrient rich foods grown in cobalt rich soil (and you don’t have to eat the soil as your body want break down minerals in that form anyways) and your flora is converting it to cobalamin then the number is more like infinity.

Would you keep pumping air into a leaky tire or would you patch the leak? Well would you keep taking supplements while not correcting your re-absorption problem?

Stop smoking, drinking, eating animal products and processed foods, caffeine, avoid and handle stress, and you will start to fix your digestion. The funny thing is many people on this site do all of these things but yet feel like they have a greater need for B12 than their McDonalds eating, coffee drinking, cigarette smoking, always angry counterparts and there is simply no cases to back that up; just a bunch of baseless fear and fear mongering.

The meat industry isn’t making much money off of us, the medical industry is making less money off of us, but the supplement companies are riding this bubble as far as it will take them.

If I am wrong, then show me studies that have vegetarians suffering from this. Show me the B12 deficiencies that are ravaging rural China, India, and other places that don’t eat very much meat and in some cases none at all. Show me people that have had these problems and other than not eating meat had completely healthy lifestyles.

My position is this. If you have the perfect diet then all you need is food and no supplements, if you feel this diet will leave you deficient then you need to add back what ever FOOD you need not to be deficient. So if someone believes that strongly that they are in danger because they are not eating dirt or animal foods then they need to add those things to their diet. Chemical supplements are, in my opinion, a bad idea for so many reasons; one being the symbiotic relationship that ALL nutritional components have with each other. You can’t just take B12 and be good you need all of its complements and since scientist admit that they only know 10% of what is contained within foods, good luck finding all the other pieces.

[Rufassa]

Its nice to have brought up this topic as a reminder to think more into the underlying problems for such issues. Alissa gives lots of references to this debate in a couple of threads in the "Need to know more about raw?" section on this website.

Yes and my OP gave a link to the "7 points debunking some B12 myths" found in that section.

[iluvmangos]

I'm gonna keep supplementing with B-12 because I don't want pernicious anemia.

[Raw Angel Mom]

Thank you so much for the link, it was very good and i really enjoy reading it.

What you says make perfect sense and i will continue to keep an open mind and read about that.

You have brought many valuable informations and i am very grateful that you started this post.

[T-Bird]

I'm gonna keep supplementing with B-12 because I don't want pernicious anemia.

It's the permanent neurological damage that I worry about!

[Rufassa]

It's the permanent neurological damage that I worry about!

Would this be of any concern if you were on SAD????

[rkk]

I had my B12 levels checked a month ago, and they were fine. I was doing a combination of mostly raw/some cooked vegan (plus honey/bee pollen). I wasn't taking any B12 supplements or vitamins either. I have been predominantly vegan for 1.5 year so I don't know where my B12 is coming from. But I'm apparently just fine.

The only things that were low for me was my iron and vitamin D levels. However, iron has been an issue for me for many years (even when I was vegetarian). I don't think it has anything to do with my diet, but more likely due to heavy menstrual cycles.

I recently started taking the Vitamin Code iron tablets (which happen to have B12 in them as well). All of the ingredients are raw fruits and vegetables - so I don't know where the B12 comes from, but it's plant source. So there has to be some way of deriving B12 from plants.

[lynnc72]

http://libaware.economads.com/b12issue.php

Thank you so much for this! Great reading and I've bookmarked it for the future.

I don't partake in supplements at all. I will let others decide for themselves.

[notwell]

seriously dont think its something we need to worry about. that 1 website gives good info

permanent neurological damage-rarely anything in the health world is permanent

[Rufassa]

Two question for those that don’t agree with me (and I am sure there are plenty). My first question is the one I asked previously;

would you feel so driven to supplement if you ate meat?
do you think it would be better to add raw meat and dairy to your diet?

[iluvmangos]

Two question for those that don’t agree with me (and I am sure there are plenty). My first question is the one I asked previously;

would you feel so driven to supplement if you ate meat?

I wouldn't feel that it was absolutely crucial because B12 is in meat. However, I do know that even meat eaters can get B12 deficiency.



do you think it would be better to add raw meat and dairy to your diet?


I wouldn't eat raw meat because it's gross. I wouldn't be grossed out by raw milk, but I don't feel I need it and it's cheaper and easier to just pop a sublingual B12.

[pixie_333]

Two question for those that don’t agree with me (and I am sure there are plenty). My first question is the one I asked previously;

would you feel so driven to supplement if you ate meat?
do you think it would be better to add raw meat and dairy to your diet?


i agree with you. and i don't have very long time spans with being 100% raw vegan. and i am currently not 100% and i smoke and drink coffee. but my intuition has felt for many years as a 100% raw vegan foodist i wouldn't need supplements nor no worry about b-12.

but in my experiences after being vegetarian and 100% raw in some of that for 6 years straight.. i never had pms. it wasn't until after i started eating meat again and for years my pms gave me rages and being irritable etc. then recently other symptoms. and apparently these are b12 deficientcy symtoms and since i started taking a b-12 supplement my pms is gone and all other symptoms.
i'm taking vegetarain active b-12 dibencozide by country life.

[pixie_333]

and with all this eating your crap stuff... first of all.. not all animals eat their feces. i've had a good 200 hundred cats/kittens and none ate theirs. we are not apes (if they eat it i never knew). i've never felt an urge nor intuition to eat mine even while being 100% raw and it coming out green just from veggies. it's just foul to me. i've read some posts on other raw forums that some members are eating their feces and drinking their urine... and they say it's for health. and i don't know if they enjoy it or whatever... but perhaps maybe besides them the only other people i know who are inclined to eat and drink their wastes were abused and became sexualy/mentaly disfunctioned. so like i'm saying... there are two sides to the picture perhaps... but i only find it toxic to do so.

[Rufassa]

... and i smoke and drink coffee.

If you continue these things then you may very well end up deficient. Now, if that were to happen one day then I hope that you don't ignore these lifestyle factors and blame it on a lack of meat consumption. Because if you do that then someone will be more than eager to say, "Look, see I told you raw foodist need B12 supplements," despite the FACT that you are more likely to have the same issues on the SAD.

[Dimond]

Here's is a raw, organic way to resolve the B12 issue if you're worried or choosing to supplement. Brian Clement from Hippocrates believes everyone needs vit b-12-bacterial form (soil based micro organisms aka probiotics), even raw foodists. The one he sells is derived from Saccharomyces cerevisiae. Interestingly enough once word got out about what it's made out of, that has disappeared from the website labels (and possibly product one too) of all the sources that sell his version and the company that manufacturers it. Probably because it's so overpriced when really you can find it much cheaper and he claims that he's the only one to carry it. What backs up this theory is Garden Of Life now carries a raw B12 where the primary ingredient is Saccharomyces boulardii, a subspecies of S. Cerevisiae. Now you can choose to use soil based micro organisms (SBOs) by using probiotic formulas that include this. I've always found probiotics to be very useful in strengthening the immune system and many others use it for various health issues. Just be sure to get an organic, non-dairy formula. Or you can get Garden Of Life's version which is inexpensive, raw and organic. They also have several probiotic formulas, though not all have that ingredient. Their raw multuvitamins also have the B12 in it.

Found someone that still kept that ingredient in their description of Hippocrates formula: http://www.fresh-network.com/acatalog/b12forte.html

Wonder if kefir or other fermented food can be created to provide this somehow.

[LilacLavender]

Gabriel Cousens on why we need B12...

http://www.naturalnews.com/023075.html

The "natural" way to get it would be to eat our own poop. Most people won't do that...but animals who are primarily vegan in the wild either do this or eat bugs.

Most Americans, vegan or not, are at risk of becoming b12 deficient if they do not supplement. We as a society no longer eat bugs and poop or have poor sanitation causing us to eat these things accidentally, so with the bugs and the poop we lost the b12 as well.

[RawHemp]

Grow you own vegetables and eat them unwashed, best way to get all the b12 u could ever need

[Gaius]

Sorry for the rant but it seems as if everyone is obsessed with the supplement marketing campaign.
Well said. B12 deficiency is caused by the hampering of its production in the gut by bad foods and the only reason why most people aren't deficient is because even low quality meat is full of it. If you eat a diet that is all natural, raw, and vegan, you can produce your own B12 just fine.

[Gaius]

Gabriel Cousens on why we need B12...

http://www.naturalnews.com/023075.html

The "natural" way to get it would be to eat our own poop. Most people won't do that...but animals who are primarily vegan in the wild either do this or eat bugs.

Most Americans, vegan or not, are at risk of becoming b12 deficient if they do not supplement. We as a society no longer eat bugs and poop or have poor sanitation causing us to eat these things accidentally, so with the bugs and the poop we lost the b12 as well.
You're forgetting that B12 can also come from the bacteria residue from NOT washing plant foods to the degree we do now.

[pixie_333]

If you continue these things then you may very well end up deficient. Now, if that were to happen one day then I hope that you don't ignore these lifestyle factors and blame it on a lack of meat consumption. Because if you do that then someone will be more than eager to say, "Look, see I told you raw foodist need B12 supplements," despite the FACT that you are more likely to have the same issues on the SAD.

oh i'd never blame anything on lack of meat. ;) i find meat "posion" for us.

i'm going to finish this 60 lozenges bottle and then see what happens because i'm sure i'll be back 100% by then. i finaly have a job making enough to eat raw now.

[ShantiLove]

First of all I dont belive anyone here is talking about adding meat or dairy to their diet to get the B12.


Would you keep pumping air into a leaky tire or would you patch the leak? Well would you keep taking supplements while not correcting your re-absorption problem?

Ofcourse you should fix the absorbtion problems but it is not always that easy for many, plus it might take many years on a healthy diet to do so. Risking being B12 deficient in the meen time. And as many has said allready that the consequenses of lack of B12 is to great and ireversabel. Not worth the chance. Modern diet has really messed up our body cemistry and not easy to fix.

One thing you have not taken into consideration is that our soil, organic or not, doesent contain the amount of cobalmin as it did just 50 years ago. So we cant be shure to get enouth B12 from unwashed organic produce, even thoug it would be ideal. Im not into the bug eating thing either so I prefer a suppliment.

Most supplimets on the marked today grow vitamine B´s, inc. B12, in bacteria like in nature. So they are not synthetic. But as nature makes them (ok in a tablet form but you know what I mean :p)

When it comes to animals eating feces it is mostly vegan animals who does that (who doest have 5 stomacs) not carnivories (cats ;)) my rabbit and piggies does that and gorillas too. Gorillas compared with chimps are 100% vegan and do eat feces or throv up their food and eat it again. Plant eating animals does that since most of their food can have tought fibers and is hard to break down and absorb vitamines and minerals. So they re-cycle thier food. Letting it go thorug the digestive track twice to make shure they absorb all the nutriens. Clever system.
Chimps eat bugs and ocationaly meat so they dont need to eat thier feces.
Im beginging to belive the reserchers findings that we are surpose to eat close to what the chimp is eating (until otherwise proven). Mostly fruit, leafy greens and a little nuts, and are surpose to eat a litte bugs and eegs to cover out B12 and other nutriens. I choose to be a vegan so I have to suppliment for what I dont get throug the vegan diet.

When it comes to reserching the old vegan comunities throug the world (china and india) they have found that in india that they eat a certain amound of bugs whith their plants (not on purpose). And I do know from being married with a man form that region that they are more relaxed about bugs being in their food than we are, as there are bug every where down there, and it would be imposible to try to remove them all. Ex. in the rice; They will just cook rice, bugs and all and eat it. I dont belive that there have been many pure vegans in China. Most places there are vegitarian and you do get B12 from dairy and egs.

Again it is a matter of choosing health over principals :) I would love the idear of being able to be be super healthy eating a vegan diet alone (no suppliments). It being the ideal diet for humans. But so far reserch show somthing different :(
http://www.treeoflife.nu/whyb12/ here is a really interesting article by Gabriel Cousens where he shows some of the latest rescerch.

[RawHemp]

Chimps eat bugs and ocationaly meat so they dont need to eat thier feces.
Im beginging to belive the reserchers findings that we are surpose to eat close to what the chimp is eating (until otherwise proven). Mostly fruit, leafy greens and a little nuts, and are surpose to eat a litte bugs and eegs to cover out B12 and other nutriens. I choose to be a vegan so I have to suppliment for what I dont get throug the vegan diet.

When it comes to reserching the old vegan comunities throug the world (china and india) they have found that in india that they eat a certain amound of bugs whith their plants (not on purpose). And I do know from being married with a man form that region that they are more relaxed about bugs being in their food than we are, as there are bug every where down there, and it would be imposible to try to remove them all. Ex. in the rice; They will just cook rice, bugs and all and eat it. I dont belive that there have been many pure vegans in China. Most places there are vegitarian and you do get B12 from dairy and egs.

Again it is a matter of choosing health over principals :) I would love the idear of being able to be be super healthy eating a vegan diet alone (no suppliments). It being the ideal diet for humans. But so far reserch show somthing different :(


Maybe u missed my post but the real source of b12 for all those animals is the unwashed wild plants they eat, the bug theory is bullshit. You can easily be super healthy on a vegan raw diet alone(thats what were designed to live on duh!), just eat wild unwashed vegetable or unwashed stuff from your own organic garden

[sport]

Maybe u missed my post but the real source of b12 for all those animals is the unwashed wild plants they eat, the bug theory is bullshit. You can easily be super healthy on a vegan raw diet alone(thats what were designed to live on duh!), just eat wild unwashed vegetable or unwashed stuff from your own organic garden

The problem is that you do not know what other unwanted things you will be picking up.
I intend to continue to wash my produce as well as I can and swallow my pride and my principals and take the supplement.

[RawHemp]

The problem is that you do not know what other unwanted things you will be picking up.
I intend to continue to wash my produce as well as I can and swallow my pride and my principals and take the supplement.


aslong as u have healthy organic soil there will be no other "unwanted things"

[Gaius]

aslong as u have healthy organic soil there will be no other "unwanted things"
Yep.

Most people don't understand because they've been raised by their parents to wash and cook everything they eat or else get some kind of disease. I find it remarkable how people forget that people once lived outdoors for most of the day and ate plant based foods without washing anything.

[snoops]

I have no problems with dirt and bugs on my produce but I do have a problem with shoppers who pick their noses, don't wash their hands after going to the bathroom etc handling the produce before I pick it up. Hence I rinse thoroughly all my produce.

[Gaius]

I have no problems with dirt and bugs on my produce but I do have a problem with shoppers who pick their noses, don't wash their hands after going to the bathroom etc handling the produce before I pick it up. Hence I rinse thoroughly all my produce.
You don't really have that problem in a Co-Op or similarly high quality grocery store that caters to people with some decency and health consciousness. You only have that problem at one of those disgusting SAD grocery stores like Safeway, where people already bloated and sickened by their food converge to buy more crap.

[RawHemp]

I have no problems with dirt and bugs on my produce but I do have a problem with shoppers who pick their noses, don't wash their hands after going to the bathroom etc handling the produce before I pick it up. Hence I rinse thoroughly all my produce.

Let me just go on the record by saying i would never ever do this with produce u buy from the store, only stuff u pick wild or grow in your home garden.

[RawSar]

:) I enjoyed reading this thread.

My 2 cents.

If your worried about your health or just want to be proactive about your health get tested and REGULARLY.

If your test show low-extremely low level of something up to you which way you want to go from there. Get to the REAL cause which could take a long time and change in your diet or just take a simple quick fix way that may not last forever but you wouldn't have to change much of your diet but then you could end up in the same situation down the road again...
Who knows, best way to find out which way works and which way doesn't is by getting tested regularly!

As for me when I got into health and got tested for everything for the 1st time (it had only been a few weeks of following the raw vegan diet) I was deficient in B12. (I wasn't a big meat eater before but a heavy drinker/smoker/drug user/sleepless freak etc...) I dont like the idea of eating fermented (rotten) foods. I do wash EVERYTHING before it goes in my mouth. I dont eat my feces or drink my urine since that to me is sick and could make me sick since most of that is toxins coming out anything .. eeww I work hard to get them out of my system I will not put them back in duh! So I got regular shots. Not for very long, just a few months one shot a week to one every couple weeks... etc ..
My tests later show my B12 is all good. I did not change anything else, I just supplemented.
Now after reading about B12 and doing my own research I've come to the conclusion that if I continue to eat garlic/onion/mustard/drink coffee I will probably have low B12 again. I want to prevent this from happening so I only eat these foods probably once a month.
I occasionally still have a cup of coffee here and there but never as much as I use to (2 grande coffees and 1 energy drink a day - sick right)
We will see if by doing what I do if it drops again because I get TESTED REGULARLY to stay on top of my health.

My adivice: Dont take supplements when you have not gotten checked out. This could do more damage then good. If you are not deficient but low on something why not give your body 2-3 months time to build the level back up from eating foods high in _____ whatever your low on. If that didn't help then try supplementing. If that didn't help then get SERIOUS about your health and get to the CAUSE. Everyone has different goals though so do what is going to work for you and get you to your goal.


Peace :)

[Rufassa]

I don't think many of you actually read the site I referenced so I am going to post this snippet:

...
Many nutritional analyses of foodstuffs were carried out such a long time ago, and, as such, have not taken account of more up-to-date technology in scientific procedures. For instance, Tesco's raspberries now state quite clearly that 100g of raspberries contain 30% of the recommended daily allowance of vitamin B12. This cannot be an isolated example of a plant food which contains B12! More likely, it is just one plant food of many which contain this vitamin. Indeed, according to Dr Vetrano, current books on nutrition in the U.S. have now stated that there is B12 in any food that contains quantities of the B vitamin complex, but previously they were just not able to assay the amounts. Nowadays, more modern technology has allowed them to discover that there is B12 in those foods rich in the B complex.

The author does not believe that a vitamin B12 deficiency is more widespread in vegans or vegetarians - this is probably just another marketing lie! In fact, many so-called studies 'showing vegans deficient' have to be carefully studies themselves - many of them do not prove vegans to be deficient at all! In fact, contrary to meat and dairy industry propaganda, meat-eaters are known to be more likely to have a vitamin B12 deficiency - this has been known since 1959!!(1)

Having said this, we must bear in mind that many vegetarians and vegans still take antibiotics or consume antibiotic-containing foods such as onions, garlic, strong radishes and other foods rich in mustard oil, which are lethal to intestinal flora. The trouble is that once we have damaged our intestinal flora, it is difficult to correct without proper and knowledgeable healthcare and dietary advice. It is of far greater importance to correct intestinal flora problems than to rely on so-called supplements. People who have a physical problem because they think they are not getting enough vitamin B12, are in fact often not assimilating their foods properly because of poor digestion. When digestion is straightened out, B12 can be utilized and produced once again
...

[RawTruth]

Here's is a raw, organic way to resolve the B12 issue if you're worried or choosing to supplement. ... What backs up this theory is Garden Of Life now carries a raw B12 where the primary ingredient is Saccharomyces boulardii, a subspecies of S. Cerevisiae. Now you can choose to use soil based micro organisms (SBOs) by using probiotic formulas that include this. I've always found probiotics to be very useful in strengthening the immune system and many others use it for various health issues. Just be sure to get an organic, non-dairy formula. Or you can get Garden Of Life's version which is inexpensive, raw and organic. They also have several probiotic formulas, though not all have that ingredient. Their raw multuvitamins also have the B12 in it.

...

This is the brand you sell, right? Do you also take it yourself?

[RawTruth]

Rufassa,

I agree with you. A number of the respondents seem to have skipped the article itself. Thanks for cut & pasting excerpts.

This continues to be a controversial topic, which amazes me. Perhaps there is still so much B-12 misunderstanding because many people new to the raw lifestyle haven't yet taken the time to do in-depth research themselves; they just read a piece of an article somewhere, or they rely on only Gabriel's interpretation. Or a simpler surmisal is that so few people truly understand how the healthy human body creates and maintains health. Most "medical" knowledge is based on sick people or, at best, on "healthy" people who are eating a SAD diet. If doctors don't understand, imagine how easy it is for a layperson to be confused also.

Whatever the case, I'll add my story. I have been totally raw for over five years, I was vegetarian and vegan for 20 years before that, and I am tested periodically for B-12 levels. I have had no deficiency despite not taking B-12 supplements.

Folks -- remember that your body will always be thrown into a negative reactive state when you put anything unnatural into it. By unnatural, I mean anything other than real food. Real food = fresh, ripe, whole, unprocessed vegetables, fruits, sprouts, seeds and nuts. Unnatural = everything else, ranging from coffee, cigarettes, alcohol, and animals to <hold on tight> supplements and powders, including - yes - B-12 supplements, calcium (of course), and green powders (but that's another story - ha!).

So, those of you who are afraid of B-12 deficiency, how about simply being checked regularly rather than supplement indiscriminately. Then, you won't wonder anymore. You won't be reacting out of fear. You will have positive, personal, correct information. And then, since you’ll be speaking from your own first-hand experience, the word will surely spread through the raw community and eventually the firestorm of controversy will die down.

[Dimond]

This is the brand you sell, right? Do you also take it yourself? Not the B-12 formula; I have been taking probiotics on and off for years due to health issues and for maintenance. Garden Of Life has been the one I've taken the most, although I have tried others. I checked some of the other brands and only a couple include that ingredient, so unless I found a formula even more potent, I will probably stick with this brand. Also checking with Body Biotics because it's another good brand with SBOs. There are a couple of probiotics that say SBOs, but may not specify the ingredient yet it could have it-the companies may disclose this if you ask.

I have no plans to ever go to doctors or get tests done (a form of torture for me), so guess I will just have to rely on how I feel for any health issues.

[sport]

aslong as u have healthy organic soil there will be no other "unwanted things"
I am thinking of things like cat's pee and animal droppings and other things of that nature that may give me disease. I am not afraid of a little dirt.

[RawHemp]

I am thinking of things like cat's pee and animal droppings and other things of that nature that may give me disease. I am not afraid of a little dirt.

Screening/greenhouses, how would a cat pee on your vegetables? lol. Seriously people need to stop being so scared, you eat raw food, even if u do eat some nasty stuff its only gona make u stronger(the likleyhood of this hapening is like 10000/1 tho haha)

O by the way the organic soil turns that cat pee and animal poo into useable nutrients and kills all the harmful stuff. This is the main reason why washing is unecesary if u have good organic soil

[Gaius]

I always laugh a little when I see the irrational fear of "poo" in your food.

Think about how many animals not only poo'd and peed on the ground your food grows in, but how many have died and decomposed on it. Animals excrete and they decay on the ground when they die, and all that waste and tissue goes back in the ground, to be consumed in some form by a plant-eater. So yes, when we eat our veggies, we are in some form eating what used to be poo and pee, and what used to be living animals.

This is not a disgusting thing, this is how life works, and to think that you are higher than the natural order of things just shows how brainwashed people are.

[sport]

I am remembering the outbreak of e coli that was caused by some animal peeing on raspberries and the one caused by deer coming too close to the apple orchard and some excrement getting in to the apple juice.
People died because of these incidents. It is not just me being squemish.

[Dimond]

Just got confirmation that Saccharomyces Boulardii or Saccharomyces
cerevisiae is NOT in Body Biotics. :(

[Rufassa]

Those people ate conventional fruit that wasn't from their garden. They also weren't raw, if you eat cooked foods I wouldn't recommend eating unwashed produce. AND e coli doesn't exist in organic soil!!

It's funny. Almost every outbreak is in a conventional farm or processing facility but after they happen it’s organic farming practices that get attracted. Manure has been used in agriculture for centuries, and the small quantities that your cat drops will dry up fast and only serve as food for the worms.

I use a lot of manure in my garden, I have decaying fish parts under all of my tomatoes, corn, eggplant, okra and peppers, My compost is full of worms, I piss (not the animal, ME) on my compost pile, I eat the food I grow and the taste of store brought food doesn't compare to fresh picked fruits and veggies. My tomato plants are standing 6ft tall before they even start to flower. No fertilizer's (unless you're counting compost), no pesticides, The only thing I spray on my plants is water.

Is there cobalt in my soil? I don't know, I don't get it tested but I do know that if it is needed for the plants to grow then it must be there because as I mentioned before my plants grow just fine with out the add of ANY chemicals other than those chemicals excreted from living or decaying organisms. So, I guess that means that many of you would never except my invate to eat lunch with me in my garden:D. lol

[Rufassa]

P.S. I wash my food. I don't subscribe to the healthy dirt philosophy. Now, if I can't get all the dirt off the skin of a carrot then OK, but I am going to definitely try my best to get it off before I start to eat it.