Question about wrinkles

[juliew]

So this guy made me eat a ton of animal proteins for a "diet" and I developed these creases/wrinkles on my face. I've been working an 80/20 diet for about a year with no luck (still acne and creases). I'm wondering if anyone has really had wrinkles go away or seen amazing skin improvement?? If so, what is your diet...maybe I'm doing this wrong haha!?
Peace and joy,
Julie

[sport]

I know that when I was doing green juice first thing every morning my hairdresser asked me if I had a facelift. I was doing cucumber, celery and greens with an apple and half a lemon.

[Veganforlife]

This guy MADE you? I mean, he like sat on you and force fed that crap down your throat? LOL!

Seriously!

Our skin is our biggest organ. If you go 100% Raw for just 30 days? You WILL see drastic results.

[Revvell]

This guy MADE you? I mean, he like sat on you and force fed that crap down your throat? LOL!


That's what I was wondering.

O.k., so, what's your diet currently consist of? How long were you "forced" to eat that way? Was it longer than a year? Lucky for us, healing often takes less time than the damage we've done.

I agree with Lucy. 100% raw vegan, 30 days. What's the 20% you're eating?

[juliew]

Ok he didn't sit on me!! He basically convinced me and had me do a pact and agreement and all that crap. It was for like 4 months. NEway, I don't want to remember that!
I've been doing green juice in am for a year with no results!!:confused:
The 20% of my diet consisted of raw goat's cheese, steamed veggies and baked sweet potatoes.
As of the 24th I am trying 100% raw including some superfoods now.

I just want to have hope!! Thanks for your support,
Julie

[Colorawdo girl]

my skin got all tight and glowy. greens greens greens

[EZ rider]

I wonder if the type and amount of fat in the diet is a factor ?

[juliew]

too much fat?

[juliew]

can you be specific about greens? i thought i was eating enough greens for a cow! and juicing too! how long did it take?

[RawHeaven]

What guy? The one inside your head or a real person? j/k :D

Eat pumpkin seeds and drink more hempseed milk. Just see this for you.

[RawHeaven]

can you be specific about greens? i thought i was eating enough greens for a cow! and juicing too! how long did it take?

Please read Victoria Boutenko's Green for Life if you haven't already.

You have to incorporate patience while you travel along this path. Some changes you see right away and others take awhile. Advice: Take it one day at a time and thank your lucky stars you're where you are. :)

Best wishes.

[AKRaw]

Eat pumpkin seeds and drink more hempseed milk. Just see this for you.

How does one make hempseed milk? Blend the hemp seeds up with water, just like I would almonds? Have hempseeds, heading for the blender...

Can't believe I never thought to blend the things up. : )

[sport]

How does one make hempseed milk? Blend the hemp seeds up with water, just like I would almonds? Have hempseeds, heading for the blender...

Can't believe I never thought to blend the things up. : )

Are they shelled hempseeds. If they are not shelled you will need to put them through a sieve or a nut milk bag when you are finished.

[juliew]

A real person silly!
How does hemp seeds/pumpkin seeds help wrinkles? thanks for the advice. I've been meaning to read that book!

[KtotheB]

My skin has improved in that I feel more "glowy" and less dry. I used to have little veins around my ankles that are disappearing, not sure if it's because my skin is becoming less translucent or what. Anyways, give it a try!

[rawbabymama]

Horizontal creases in the lower eyelid can be from food or other allergies, which might not be what you have, but worth a mention.

I use shea butter under my eyes before sleeping & jojoba oil after my showers all over, and I only have one little crease under each eye from squinting (I'm 30, I know even most children have that one crease, but I never had them before I was squinting all the time from the wrong contacts prescription, LOL) - no other lines/wrinkles. My friend, who is my age, has been bugging me to help her to do what I do.

Omega 3 fatty acids are great for your skin...flaxseed oil (if you eat a lot of sunflower seeds, brazil nuts, sesame seeds, etc than you can use flaxseeds to balance out the Omega 6 fatty acids in those yummies) or hempseeds/their oil (wonderful balance of 3:6 on their own) really help. I love dark leafy greens...I always look better when I have a great big leafy dark green salad every day. Sometimes twice a day.

As for the acne...it could be the dairy & starch; acne is often a symptom of yeast. I know those two things make me break out. When I used to have pimples, rubbing a lemon slice over my skin a few times a day helped, as well as scrubbing very gently with Lima sea salt or baking soda. You can also dilute some unpasteurized apple cider vinegar with warm water - about a tbs to a cup - then dip a clean washcloth in it and gently massage your face (avoid your eyes!!!) The acv helps to rebalance your skin. Use a teensy bit of jojoba oil afterward.

Going 100% raw definitely does the trick also. You will need to give it some time to see results. Also, what about your stress levels? Do you make faces when you are upset? Do you get enough sleep? Do you use conventional skin products (if so, the acv deal can replace soap & jojoba oil is a great makeup remover).

I love making skin masks, so let me know if you want facial recipes. :-)

Best Wishes,

Michele

[didi_dancer]

I have heard, that alot of people dont see real skin differances until they are 100% raw. Then double check to make sure your oils are cold pressed, also lots of green smoothies. Avoid alot of nuts and dried fruit too. Though some is ok and good to much can cause acne.

[RawHeaven]

How does one make hempseed milk? Blend the hemp seeds up with water, just like I would almonds? Have hempseeds, heading for the blender...

Can't believe I never thought to blend the things up. : )


Put shelled hempseeds in water, blend, strain and enjoy. i use 6 tablespoons to 3 quarts of water. Nutiva has a good brand or you can find them in the refrigerated section of most health food stores. they should be in the fridge if they're in bulk by the way.


A real person silly!
How does hemp seeds/pumpkin seeds help wrinkles? thanks for the advice. I've been meaning to read that book!

well sometimes those negative people talking are not real. lol.

i was focusing on the fat/healthy oils/omega 3's & 6's. your skin appeared dry to me in my mind's eye. my suggestions were more something that will work for your body/face. All bodies are different. Don't get too caught up in the answer. I wouldn't want you to be eating tons of pumpkin seeds forever. pumpkin seeds are a good source of unsaturated fatty acids - good for the skin. Cucumbers also fantastic for the skin - especially juiced. just give the suggestions a try and research their healing properties for yourself. try oil cleansing your face as well - see thread in Other Health section. wishing you well! :D

[shakti17]

i have been reading up on face diagnosis - and those 2 lines above the nose and lines on the forehead have to do with stress!

actually....the left side line above nose indicates the spleen holding emotions. the right line --emotions held in liver. forhead lines=deep seated worries and anxieties

i totally have these lines just this past year, as i have been under an unbelievable amt of stress the past 3 years (but i still have a positive attitude!)

this is according to ayurveda, and i find it to be true.

it would follow that on raw the lines reduce or vanish, as raw is cleansing.
:)

[snoops]

I had deep lines in my forehead - totally stress. I have to say that since I have been drinking green smoothies everyday they are way less noticeable. Like I wear bangs because of them but think maybe I don't need to anymore.

I am only about 75% raw at the moment, so yeah - green smoothies.

[juliew]

Horizontal creases in the lower eyelid can be from food or other allergies, which might not be what you have, but worth a mention.

I use shea butter under my eyes before sleeping & jojoba oil after my showers all over, and I only have one little crease under each eye from squinting (I'm 30, I know even most children have that one crease, but I never had them before I was squinting all the time from the wrong contacts prescription, LOL) - no other lines/wrinkles. My friend, who is my age, has been bugging me to help her to do what I do.

Omega 3 fatty acids are great for your skin...flaxseed oil (if you eat a lot of sunflower seeds, brazil nuts, sesame seeds, etc than you can use flaxseeds to balance out the Omega 6 fatty acids in those yummies) or hempseeds/their oil (wonderful balance of 3:6 on their own) really help. I love dark leafy greens...I always look better when I have a great big leafy dark green salad every day. Sometimes twice a day.

As for the acne...it could be the dairy & starch; acne is often a symptom of yeast. I know those two things make me break out. When I used to have pimples, rubbing a lemon slice over my skin a few times a day helped, as well as scrubbing very gently with Lima sea salt or baking soda. You can also dilute some unpasteurized apple cider vinegar with warm water - about a tbs to a cup - then dip a clean washcloth in it and gently massage your face (avoid your eyes!!!) The acv helps to rebalance your skin. Use a teensy bit of jojoba oil afterward.

Going 100% raw definitely does the trick also. You will need to give it some time to see results. Also, what about your stress levels? Do you make faces when you are upset? Do you get enough sleep? Do you use conventional skin products (if so, the acv deal can replace soap & jojoba oil is a great makeup remover).

I love making skin masks, so let me know if you want facial recipes. :-)

Best Wishes,

Michele

SURE I'd love some. I never have time/motivation to make stuff like that but maybe if you gave me the recipes it would push me :)

[juliew]

Please read Victoria Boutenko's Green for Life if you haven't already.

You have to incorporate patience while you travel along this path. Some changes you see right away and others take awhile. Advice: Take it one day at a time and thank your lucky stars you're where you are. :)

Best wishes.

I read it!! Took me like 2 hours. Loved it!!!! I ran straight home and drank like 40 oz green smoothie haha

[Myca]

So this guy made me eat a ton of animal proteins for a "diet" and I developed these creases/wrinkles on my face. I've been working an 80/20 diet for about a year with no luck (still acne and creases). I'm wondering if anyone has really had wrinkles go away or seen amazing skin improvement?? If so, what is your diet...maybe I'm doing this wrong haha!?
Peace and joy,
Julie

What is the 20% that you are still eating? Wondering if there is something there that you are sensitive too? Are you around a lot of cigarette smoke?

[juliew]

What is the 20% that you are still eating? Wondering if there is something there that you are sensitive too? Are you around a lot of cigarette smoke?

My mom smokes but not often and always outside. I'm 100% raw now!

[rawbabymama]

SURE I'd love some. I never have time/motivation to make stuff like that but maybe if you gave me the recipes it would push me :)

I just saw this, sorry! I will type some up for you tomorrow afternoon. :)

[juliew]

My skin has improved in that I feel more "glowy" and less dry. I used to have little veins around my ankles that are disappearing, not sure if it's because my skin is becoming less translucent or what. Anyways, give it a try!

Give what a try? Raw?:confused:

Also, how did you get your skin less translucent? that idea sounds perfect to me!!:D

[Leneveu]

Horizontal creases in the lower eyelid can be from food or other allergies, which might not be what you have, but worth a mention.

That's very interesting - I've never heard anything about a link between facial creases and allergies. Do you have any more information or perhaps a link on this topic?

Thanks,
Lisa

[Catmoon]

I find the allergie theory interesting...I am fairly young and have had premature crease...one horizontal line under my eye and 2 creases in my forehead...and I believe this is from years of eating cheese which i discovered later in life I am allergic too...I am hoping with raw my face will get rid of these :)

[EZ rider]

I wonder if eating a lot of chemical salt (salt that is not part of a plant and is not bioavailable) could contribute to wrinkles ?

[Matthew182]

Eating lots of greens, especially kale can help bevcause of the lutein. Which increases skin elesticity and hydration of the skin. Also protects from sun damage... hmmm. To actually remove wrinkles you need to repair the dermal part of the skin, there aren't many things that can do this because of they don't pass the epidermis. So what can you do about it? Something like Skinceuticals C E ferulic acid is good, or retinoids... but thats kind of harsh.

I'm using Skinceuticals C E ferulic acid right now and its removed all my hyperpigmentation, it also corrects sun damage. Using a good sun screen on face is important, you absorb more vitamin D3 on your body anyway...

example of how effective it is here;
http://www.medizen.co.uk/Treatments/Display.asp?ID=7

also the picture attached to this message.

[mellowgirl09]

I know that when I was doing green juice first thing every morning my hairdresser asked me if I had a facelift. I was doing cucumber, celery and greens with an apple and half a lemon.

I've been doing a similar green drink in the morning and within a month my skin was completely different. I've always had acne and within the past year my skin texture had started becoming kind of rough and not smooth looking. The texture now is soft and smooth, my skin glows and I rarely breakout. I think it is the green juice as well. I've been doing the Dr. oz green drink (cucumber, spinach or kale, ginger, lemon, and celery, sometimes I add an apple)

[sport]

I've been doing a similar green drink in the morning and within a month my skin was completely different. I think it is the green juice as well. I've been doing the Dr. oz green drink (cucumber, spinach or kale, ginger, lemon, and celery, sometimes I add an apple)

So. Dr OZ has stolen my recipe

[Arky]

Yet another ancient thread resurrected...


I'm amazed that no one has mentioned the importance of liver cleansing!

If the liver is congested (and I'm referring to the biliary system, too), then clear, healthy, elastic skin is going to remain elusive no matter what nutrients one consumes.

On the nutrient side of things, though, there have been some good suggestions in this thread. It's worth noting that in addition to EFAs, pumpkin seeds are also high in sulphur, which aids elasticity of the skin, and zinc. I agree with the multiple recommendations for greens in the diet - they truly do make a huge impact on skin health and virtually every aspect of human physiological functioning benefits to some degree from consumption of plenty of greens, whether directly or indirectly.

Turmeric is another excellent food substance for skin health. It contains sulphur, copious quantities of beta carotene, and is a powerful anti-inflammatory.

Milkthistle (I grind whole milkthistle seeds each day) is wonderful for protecting, detoxifying, and even aiding regeneration of, the liver.

Avocados and red palm oil each contain good levels of Vitamin E, too, as well as a range of different fats that complement Omega 3s derived in the diet from properly-grown greens, flax seed, pumpkin seed or whatever.

There is a good commercial product by the name of BioSil (orthosilicic acid) which I know from experience to work well for skin and hair growth, but it's not essential if one cleanses the liver, consumes sufficient EFAs, and foods rich in nutrients such as sulphur, silicon, vitamins A, E, C, minerals and trace minerals etc. I just love the fact that greens contain all these things and more.

MSM is, of course, a very rich source of sulphur, and enthusiastically used by many people for skeletal, hair, and skin health. However, it doesn't suit everyone, as discussed in another thread (http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?t=42893)

Greens even help cleanse the liver and biliary system, particularly if they are of bitter varieties, although if one has existing hepato-biliary health issues, then herbal substances will probably prove very worthwhile. Don't forget, staying with the greens, though, that cereal grass juices are very potent liver cleansers, and are very nutritious at the same time. Carrot juice is great for the skin, too, what with its liver-cleansing abilities and high beta-carotene content. Lastly, beet juice is a fantastic liver cleansing agent and is also, apparently, high in Zinc sulphate (zinc being vital for good skin health).


.

[DebB]

Yet another ancient thread resurrected...


I'm amazed that no one has mentioned the importance of liver cleansing!

If the liver is congested (and I'm referring to the biliary system, too), then clear, healthy, elastic skin is going to remain elusive no matter what nutrients one consumes.

On the nutrient side of things, though, there have been some good suggestions in this thread. It's worth noting that in addition to EFAs, pumpkin seeds are also high in sulphur, which aids elasticity of the skin, and zinc. I agree with the multiple recommendations for greens in the diet - they truly do make a huge impact on skin health and virtually every aspect of human physiological functioning benefits to some degree from consumption of plenty of greens, whether directly or indirectly.

Turmeric is another excellent food substance for skin health. It contains sulphur, copious quantities of beta carotene, and is a powerful anti-inflammatory.

Milkthistle (I grind whole milkthistle seeds each day) is wonderful for protecting, detoxifying, and even aiding regeneration of, the liver.

Avocados and red palm oil each contain good levels of Vitamin E, too, as well as a range of different fats that complement Omega 3s derived in the diet from properly-grown greens, flax seed, pumpkin seed or whatever.

There is a good commercial product by the name of BioSil (orthosilicic acid) which I know from experience to work well for skin and hair growth, but it's not essential if one cleanses the liver, consumes sufficient EFAs, and foods rich in nutrients such as sulphur, silicon, vitamins A, E, C, minerals and trace minerals etc. I just love the fact that greens contain all these things and more.

MSM is, of course, a very rich source of sulphur, and enthusiastically used by many people for skeletal, hair, and skin health. However, it doesn't suit everyone, as discussed in another thread (http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?t=42893)

Greens even help cleanse the liver and biliary system, particularly if they are of bitter varieties, although if one has existing hepato-biliary health issues, then herbal substances will probably prove very worthwhile. Don't forget, staying with the greens, though, that cereal grass juices are very potent liver cleansers, and are very nutritious at the same time. Carrot juice is great for the skin, too, what with its liver-cleansing abilities and high beta-carotene content. Lastly, beet juice is a fantastic liver cleansing agent and is also, apparently, high in Zinc sulphate (zinc being vital for good skin health).


.

Hi Arky - I don't know anything about cleansing the liver, but it's something I feel I need to look into deeper. Is there a "liver cleanse" method or ...? you recommend? Thanks - you are such a wealth of information! *Ü*

[Arky]

Hi DebB.

I'm sure you're very well aware of the classic 'liver flush' style cleanses, using lemon juice, a hefty dose of oil, and epsom salt, or some similar variation on that basic theme.

These have their place, many people experience worthwhile results from them, and they are inexpensive and relatively quick to do.

However, this kind of liver cleanse has never worked for me and although this has been frustrating in the past, it has led me to look more deeply into the topic, so for that I am actually thankful.

Note that in order to cleanse the liver, one of the major obstacles that may (or may not, depending on the health status of each individual) need to be overcome is varying degrees of obstruction of bile flow through the liver and the gallbladder and gall ducts that lie downstream of the liver. Many of the liver's detoxifying processes involve enzymatic processes (more on which later), but many toxins are unable to be safely broken down, molecularly, and the liver relies upon flushing these out through the bile (which will eventually exit the body via the bowel). Thus, anything which impedes the flow of bile also impedes the flow of undetoxifiable toxins out of the body.

This usage of bile, by the liver, to expel toxins is one reason why there is said to be a correlation between patients who have longterm constipation apparently being statistically more likely to experience bowel cancer - if toxins are lying around in the bowel too long before being excreted, bowel tissues may become damaged by them. Ironically, constipation may, in some circumstances, occur by virtue of bile flow having been impeded in the hepato-biliary system for some reason. That's a very nasty catch-22 and highlights the extreme importance of ensuring good bile flow throughout the liver, gallbladder, bile ducts, and, of course, the intestines and bowel. There are other important purposes for bile, including its use by the body as a first line of defense against intestinal parasites and its use by the pancreas to carry pancreatically-secreted carbonates which serve to modulate the pH of chyme exiting the stomach - not enough carbonates means chyme remaining too acidic and thus damaging the sensitive epithelial tissues of the duodenum, which leads not only to longterm pain and increased food sensitivities, but also to malabsorption of many substances including fat-soluble vitamins A and D, without which calcium cannot be absorbed effectively by the body.

Sorry for the digression, but, as you'll see, there is a great deal of interconnectedness between all these aspects of hepato-biliary function, which it is very wise to understand before going ahead with liver cleansing, but which very few people do bother to learn. I can't cover everything here but I'm trying to give you a usable overview.

Basically, the premise of the typical liver/gallbladder flush is to consume some substance or other for several days prior to the flush itself, the intention being that this substance will serve to (hopefully) soften any gallstones that might be present in the gallbladder or even further up the biliary tree, in the liver itself (in which case, they're referred to as 'intra-hepatic' stones). Typical substances commonly used for this purpose include orthophosphoric acid drops, coca cola Classic (this is buffered by the manufacturer with orthophosphoric acid), apple juice (contains malic acid), isolated malic acid, lemon juice in water, etc. etc.

It's a crude approach and not without potential issues for some ill patients who may already have dwindling alkaline mineral reserves (see my remarks about this issue in another post: http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?t=64426) - in a nutshell, calcium exists in the body in specific ratio to magnesium - if one has calcium deficiency and ingests large quantities of magnesium, then the body must struggle to find calcium with which to bring the ingested magnesium into correct ratio. I myself have experienced exactly this situation and it ain't pleasant. Doc Sutter (DocSutter.com) also speaks of this cal-mag ratio issue with regard to epsom salt liver/gallbladder flushes.


Anyway, having ('hopefully') softened any stones through following the above procedure, a basic liver flush may (optionally) employ magnesium (epsom salts are magnesium sulphate) with the aim of 'relaxing' the tissues of the bile ducts, in the hope that this will permit large gallstones to pass easily without becoming lodged. However, this is a double-edged sword, in my view, because whilst it may, perhaps, allow larger stones to pass through, it might also allow a situation to occur whereby larger stones may enter the bile ducts than would otherwise have occurred in the absence of magnesium ingestion, and these stones may not successfully pass all the way through. Choledocholithiasis (stones lodged in common bile duct) is a very serious matter indeed, often requiring emergency surgery, not just for pain but for actual physiological safety - see tinyurl.com/3urhyrd.

Anyway, magnesium or no magnesium, the point of the lemon juice and the oil is to stimulate the gallbladder into vigorously contracting and thus (hopefully) moving trapped gallstones into the bile ducts and eventually out into the duodenum and bowel.

As I said, some people succeed with this method and enjoy benefits to their liver functioning as a consequence. I would not wish to intimidate people with my various discussions of potential pitfalls - that is not at all my intention. I merely hope to help one make an informed decision rather than blindly doing a classic liver/gallbladder flush without realising that it is not as 'foolproof' as is so frequently implied.


However, for those people who may be calcium deficient, it is not only unwise to consume large quantities of magnesium (see that thread I linked-to earlier), but the calcium deficiency itself may, in some cases, be an important clue that such a flush, regardless of whether one includes magnesium/epsom salts, may be an unwise choice altogether.

Why?

Well, if one has a known calcium deficiency, in spite of adequate dietary intake of fat-soluble vitamins A and D, and of calcium etc., then one should ideally question why the calcium deficiency has arisen. Of course, one reason may be that one has gallstones obstructing efficient bile flow and that this has led to a reduction in efficiency of emulsification of fat-soluble vitamins within the duodenum. Insufficient emulsification can mean consequent malabsorption of A and D, and, as a knock-on effect, malabsorption of calcium. OK, so a flush might still be reasonable in this circumstance.

However, there are other ways in which bile flow may be reduced...

For example, bile flow may be reduced not necessarily due to obstruction but due to exhaustion of the biliary system for some reason.

I mentioned earlier that the liver uses the bile to excrete certain toxins which it is unable to molecularly detoxify. Well, this may include certain synthetic chemical endotoxins or perhaps heavy metals, to name but two. Mercury, for instance, may, in some people, be a continual burden to the liver. One of many ways in which it may be a continual burden is in some unfortunate people who have mercury dental amalgams that may give off vapour every day of their lives (contentious topic but plenty of evidence to support this - see work of Hal Huggins etc.). Because the liver simply lacks the ability to detoxify mercury, it's only option is to excrete it as it is, so if someone has a continual stream of mercury vapour reaching the liver, then the liver will continually attempt to excrete it via the bile. Whilst bile is, to a certain degree, resorbed in the bowel, the unrelenting necessity to purge mercury via the bile may very well eventually lead to bile insufficiency. Albeit from a different exposure source, copper is also excreted via the bile and, in an individual with impeded ability to excrete copper (may have a genetic basis, for instance), bile components may similarly be exhausted.

Now, as I've discussed recently, elsewhere on the forum, mercury may also deactivate many detoxification enzymes because it is able to displace vital trace elements on which these enzymes depend for their correct functioning.

So, for someone with compromised liver function, with no apparent cause known, they may not know if, in their particular case, biliary insufficiency, biliary obstruction, enzyme pathway derangement, or some other reason is responsible. I hope I have adequately summarised a few possible ways in which each of these may arise (and, of course, there may be some overlap in any given person, as might, for example, be the case if one had bile insufficiency for a long period of time, with possible thickening of bile within the gallbladder, and possible formation of stones as a consequence. Similarly, someone with derangement of enzymatic liver detoxification pathways due to mercury intoxication might simultaneously experience bile depletion due to exhaustion of bile components such as taurine, on account of ceaseless attempts by the body to excrete a continual supply of mercury from, say, dental amalgam vapour...).

Not knowing what the specific cause of one's compromised liver function is, means that simply choosing to follow a 'liver flush' one finds on one of many thousands of internet pages, is a potentially unwise thing to do. If one has biliary insuffiency, then is it wise, for example, to relax the bile ducts with magnesium, only to discover that debris from the gallbladder exits the gallbladder, into the common bile duct, but insufficient bile is present to flush it all the way through the duct?



(Continued next post...)
.

[Arky]

With a reasonable understanding of hepato-biliary issues, including, but not limited to, those mentioned above, one can appreciate that a wiser course of action may be followed, if one is patient enough to research these issues and patient enough to opt for a slower means of improving liver functioning.


For example, some key components of bile include cholesterol, phosphatydyl choline, taurine and glycine. I wouldn't recommend supplementing with cholesterol (broadly-speaking, the liver synthesises and modulates cholesterol anyway, though this does, of course, depend upon certain enzyme pathways operating correctly, pathways that statin drugs deliberately impede. If you're on statins, this may be a very important nugget of information), but phosphatydyl choline (found in lecithin), taurine and glycine are all very easy, and economical, to supplement (molybdenum can also be helpful in some circumstances - e.g. copper toxicity, or candidiasis - molybdenum displaces copper and aids the liver in detoxifying a very nasty toxin generated by candida, called 'acetaldehyde'). Taken for a month or two, phosphatydyl choline, taurine and glycine are generally safe to consume, regardless of the cause of compromised liver function, and certainly present far less potential risk than a liver flush. These supplements will help improve bile flow and the consistency and quantity of bile. Herbs such as artichoke and milk thistle are also an excellent adjunct because they too support healthy bile flow and constitution (dandelion root has its place but if you have heavy metal issues, Andy Cutler counsels against the use of dandelion root for the liver). Of course, milk thistles benefits also extend to generally detoxifying and protecting the liver on a cellular level, so it's a win-win situation for anyone with compromised liver function to consume milk thistle, unless they are specifically sensitive to it.

Bupleurum is a revered liver-supportive herb, as is picrorhiza kurroa.

Swedish bitters before each meal also help stimulate good bile flow - note that if you are sensitive to alcohol (as may be the case with some people who have compromised liver function), then there are glycerine-based alternative versions.

Liquorice and cardomom also stimulate bile very well, as does turmeric.

Additionally, anti-lithic herbs may be incorporated. these include chanca piedra, jin qian cao (gold coin grass), cleavers tea, peppermint tea, chamomile tea, hydrangea root (although hydrangea is rather diuretic for extended use). One needs to check that each of these herbs is safe in relation to their own health condition(s),of course - Boldo, for example, is unwise to use if actual gallstones are present, as it can stimulate the gallbladder to attempt to expel the stones before they are small enough.

Anti-lithic herbs such as chanca piedra and jin qian cao are believed to gradually break-down stones in a safe and controlled manner, and have been used for this purpose for millennia. Of particular note is the fact that, like milk thistle, chanca piedra is known to additionally have hepato-protective properties.

Food-wise, as I mentioned in my previous post within this thread, cereal grass juices are potent, as are carrot and beet juices. Radishes (particularly of the black variety) are often noted in naturopathic texts. I leave it up to each reader to choose what supplements, herbs, juices etc. they use, because different people have different sensitivities. I, for example, cannot tolerate beet juice or cereal grass juices at present, but have no issues with carrot juice. These sensitivities may or may not have something to do with my known case of heavy metal toxicity - certainly, many of my food sensitivities have been brought about by the mercury-induced derangement of certain enzyme pathways in my liver. For myself, I'm currently on phosphatydyl choline, taurine, glycine, milk thistle, anti-lithic herbs and, more than anything else, chelation agents (DMSA and ALA). I will not personally be attempting any flushes until I'm a good way along the road with my chelation efforts - possibly 18 months or more from now. It's also relevant to mention that people whose hepato-biliary issues are due to heavy metal intoxication would do well to avoid high-sulphur substances (tinyurl.com/3b9w2k9), and although not directly known to be a risk, epsom salt/magnesium sulphate is, nonetheless, a sulphur compound (SO4), so perhaps best avoided by these patients.

Some people find that the use of phosphatydyl choline, taurine and glycine, perhaps along with supporting and anti-lithic herbs, is sufficient to improve their liver function. Others may need to deal with more pressing issues such as mercury toxicity before a liver cleanse (of whatever type) will be viable. Others just dive in and do a classic liver flush and get great results, marginal results, no results, or actually make matters far worse (e.g. stones may become lodged in the bile ducts - AKA 'Choledocholithiasis').

If you ask an experienced naturopathic practitioner about cancer, they will typically say "cleanse the liver!". One of the most successful protocols for healing cancer is, of course, the Gerson therapy. One might expect, therefore, that Gerson knew a few things about effective liver cleansing (whilst the Gerson therapy has many components and I would not seek to play any of them down, the part of the therapy relevant to the present discussion is that of liver cleansing, so that's the component I'll focus upon). Arguably, no discussion of liver cleansing would be complete without a glance at Gerson's method, and it should also be acknowledged that although Gerson did not necessarily invent all the methods he used, he was enormously successful in synthesizing and consistently applying a complete protocol incorporating these various methods.

On the Gerson therapy, one consumes lots of carrot and apple juice (mixed). It is claimed that there is a synergy between the two juices. Regardless of Gerson's detailed rationale for choosing these juices, from the perspective of the present discussion, what is interesting is that:

Carrot juice is nutritive to the liver (beta carotene etc.)

Carrot juice is powerfully cleansing to the liver

Apple juice contains malic acid, which, as discussed earlier, is often employed in an attempt to 'soften' biliary deposits.


Now, a second tool in the Gerson arsenal, which is more-specifically used in that protocol for the purposes of liver cleansing, and for which the therapy is controversially famous (I hesitate to use the word infamous), is the coffee enema.

Coffee is a rich source of chlorogenic acid.

Chlorogenic acid thus enters the hepatic portal vein and stimulates the liver and gallbladder to purge bile etc. Interestingly, chlorogenic acid is also known to aid in the dissolution of gallstones.



Well, I couldn't cover everything here but I hope I've given you a fair overview of some things to consider, DebB. I know from reading some of your past posts that you're of the 'wiser persuasion' rather than a 'jump-straight in, head-first' kind of gal, so I'm confident you'll do some research of your own. The classic liver flush isn't rocket science, and, as I said, my aim isn't to dissuade people from doing it, per se, nor is it to try to make liver cleansing seem complicated. However, only a fool jumps in without looking around at things first.

An intelligent person will:

*take the time to learn some basic anatomy of the hepato-biliary system

*research pros and cons of using certain methods

*research pros and cons of using certain substances

*conduct some research into why their liver function may be compromised. By seriously considering other symptoms they may have (e.g. maldigestion of foods, chronic constipation, pain in the region of the right shoulderblade, trouble digesting fatty foods, light-coloured stools, etc. etc.), they may uncover clues as to what processes, in their individual case, may be leading to their individual state of impeded liver function. This will enable selection of a more suitable cleansing protocol. Contrary to popular (dare I say ignorant?) belief, liver and gallbladder cleansing is not 'one size fits all'.



The discussion here is far from exhaustive and isn't being presented as such, but it covers a few significant bases. If you feel you don't have any obvious physiological (or neurological) symptoms to guide you in figuring out which approach is best to take then perhaps consider which approaches are least aggressive. For example, unless one is diabetic, chanca piedra is considered very safe, and even protective of the liver. Milk thistle is also profoundly protective, as is turmeric. Carrot, beet, dandelion leaf, and cereal grass juices are generally a safe bet, too.



All the best, and good luck with your liver-cleansing efforts, whatever route(s) you decide to take.






P.S. Some other threads with overlapping discussion include:

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?p=655719#post655719

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?p=655826#post655826

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?t=64426



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[Arky]

Something I neglected to mention in the previous posts is that liver-cleansing is also contingent to some degree upon not overtaxing the biliary system with excessive consumption of fatty foods.

On a raw diet, one has to be careful to balance where one's calories are coming from, since greens are low in calories.

People tend, therefore, to go one of two common routes:

1) lots of fat

2) lots of fructose



Without getting into a philosophical or ideological discussion on which is a more ideal calorie source, let's look at this purely from a hepato-biliary standpoint:


1) lots of fat -

obviously, this makes continual demands upon the biliary system and may, conceivably, result in biliary exhaustion and potential thickening of the bile as a consequence...which might lead to formation of deposits in the biliary tree of the liver and/or in the gallbladder.


2) lots of fruit -

this might seem, from a hepato-biliary standpoint, to be the more ideal option. However, it is known that high sugar intake can be correlated with incidence of gallstones. Of course, fructose isn't 'sugar' as such, but anyone planning on consuming large amounts of fruit for the majority of their caloric intake might be wise to do some research on the effect it might have on biliary function. It's also noteworthy that insufficient intake of fats can compromise the biliary system, if it receives insufficient 'calls-to-action'. Then there's the increased demands on the pancreas to consider, if one is consuming truckloads of fructose each day...but that's one for another day! (why can't life be simple?!!)



At least greens are generally beneficial for the hepato-biliary system, particularly the bitter varieties. ...but even then, the likes of spinach are very high in oxalic acid, which itself poses potential problems for biliary health.

[dime]

(why can't life be simple?!!)


It wouldn't be fun then :D

Arky you're really good at this stuff, I'd suggest you start your own blog and write these posts there, pasting something like a link here. It will be better organized, more people with similar problems will read, and it might get rewarding for you too at some point for sure.

[DebB]

Amazing information Arky - thank you so much! I've cut and pasted it into my word program so I can have it in my files. I thank you for taking your time to put all this information down for us to read and benefit from. Thank you so much! *Ü*

[Arky]

You're welcome DebB, but I'm no magician - anyone who takes the time to research these issues will find this information, and more, it's just that few people make the effort to do so. I learned it simply because my own health issues forced me to find answers or continue to suffer.


I hope you get some use out of the info, and that it may encourage you to do a little further research of your own.

For example, I mostly focused upon biliary issues, since I was trying to explain various facets relevant to a person contemplating either doing a 'liver/gallbladder flush, or seeking alternative methods. On top of what I discussed, however, there are other issues such as liver flukes (which may cause obstructions and secrete noxious compounds which further impede liver function. Also note that ridding the liver of flukes is generally considered a higher priority than ridding it of stones, since attempting a liver/gallbladder flush whilst having a liver full of flukes can lead to redistribution of fluke cysts ('eggs'), which would be exceedingly counter-productive). However, ridding the liver of flukes can be made much harder in the case of patients who have other contributory factors leading to diminished bile flow, since bile is, as I've previously mentioned, a key weapon against parasites, and would act to some degree as a 'courier' for metabolites of ingested herbal deworming chemicals. Again, Barefoot Herbalist describes this in his essay on OneRadioNetwork: tinyurl.com/3qfrllt
Yet another catch-22 here, then, worse-luck.

Further issues in liver detox include cellular detoxification of the liver - which was partly covered but also includes consideration of antioxidant substances such as alpha lipoic acid and various antioxidant-rich foods, along with substances which promote phase 1 and phase 2 detoxification pathways in the liver etc. (a tiny piece of which was discussed here: http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?p=662318#post662318). Heavy metals, I've discussed rather frequently just lately so I only skimmed on those. These often have a strong interplay with 'overwhelm' of the liver, since they are so toxic and troublesome to excrete. Overwhelm of the liver, as opposed to longterm decline of liver function, is often under-appreciated. Oh, and we didn't go into infections...

As you can see, liver function and detoxification is a big topic!

My apologies that some of these longer posts can be a bit rambling in nature - it's just that with so many interconnected factors, it's difficult to provide a coherent picture within the forum format. You'll also notice that there tends to be overlap in many of my posts - it's not because I'm forgetful but because the more one comes to understand the body, the more one comes to understand the incredible degree of interrelatedness between its many functions and symptoms... I'll never stop learning. It's endlessly complex.


Anyway, take care.




@ Dime: thanks, I'll give your suggestion some thought.

All the best

[Stina]

Amazing information Arky - thank you so much! I've cut and pasted it into my word program so I can have it in my files. I thank you for taking your time to put all this information down for us to read and benefit from. Thank you so much! *Ü*

No, seriously, I thought that I wanted to print all of this up and ponder it too. Arky, I'm very curious about you- you're our masked crusader of the board! Thanks for helping us to process some issues in depth.

[mcster]

Arky, I've skimmed through your posts and will return to read in detail but in wholesale I full heartedly agree that cleansing/detoxing is paramount for optimum health. Yes, changing SAD and going raw is a must but all the junk we've been feeding our bodies for decades is not going to clear away that quickly or easily. From seemingly simple issues like cravings to more deep-rooted, chronic issues that people often post about...most if not all would clear quickly with a combination of cleansing and raw diet.

It blows my mind how fast and how dramatic my body and my health has changed since I systematically started changing my dietary habits. But raw didn't do it alone...cleansing was a HUGE part of it.

And staying on topic...I recently concluded an intense three-day cleanse that has resulted in systemic skin issues like mild acne, age spots and "normal" wrinkles disappearing or largely improving. It's all what you eat and how toxic you are inside.

[Arky]

It's all what you eat and how toxic you are inside.

...or to put it another way:

It's all about (bio)chemistry. Health-promoting chemicals (be they ingested or internally synthesized) vs. pathogenic chemicals (be they of environmental origin or ineffectively-excreted metabolic byproducts of normal internal physiological processes).

It's all about balancing chemical equations (and freeing-up chemical pathways) within the organism.

[Arky]

...I'm very curious about you- you're our masked crusader of the board!


LOL!

Sadly, I regret to inform you that I lack the dashing good looks of Antonio Banderas and wouldn't stand a chance in a sword fight!



On a serious note, I hope my ramblings will encourage you to research aspects of the topic that resonate with your own situation.

[MyRedPanda]

I think processed refined grains and sugars take a toll on our skin more than animal products, because I have read several studies linking collagen damage to high refined sugar diets.

[Arky]

I'm sure I've posted this elsewhere on RFT at some point, and actually thought I'd included it in my discussion on the first page of this thread (one of the perils of contributing to too many different boards is that you sometimes forget what you've said where!), but since I was prompted to revisit this thread, by someone reminding me of it in a 'PM', I'll just mention here the potential issue of hypermagnesemia, in relation to consuming large amounts of Epsom salts (magnesium sulphate) as is typically recommended for crude 'liver flushes' (e.g. Andreas Moritz's protocol, and that of countless similar proponents across the length and breadth of the internet). The risks of hypermagnesemia are well-covered on Curezone, so I needn't re-write them here; I'll simply provide a link:

tinyurl.com/7dwehk3

[laughalways]

one of the perils of contributing to too many different boards is that you sometimes forget what you've said where!

On what other boards do you post? I find you very knowledgeable and I am always wanting to learn more. Perhaps I could benefit from checking the other ones out if you don't mind sharing.

Thanks!

[Arky]

On what other boards do you post? I find you very knowledgeable and I am always wanting to learn more. Perhaps I could benefit from checking the other ones out if you don't mind sharing.

Thanks!

Although I link this thread in other posts, from time to time, it's been a long time since I actually read through it. Having done so, I noticed a couple of things which I'll address:

1) the above question - I prefer to keep my contributions on other boards seperate from my contributions here. It keeps things much less complicated. Hope you understand!


2) I discussed orthophosphoric acid in my liver-cleansing post but, what with the lengthy discussion therein, I now see that I neglected to mention that the orthophosphoric acid is apparently primarily intended to relax the biliary ducts etc., and is one reason why advocates of the 'coke flush' method are very explicit in asserting that the flush should not be undertaken with the orthophosphoric acid excluded.

Certainly, it is notable that the orthophosphoric acid method differs from Andreas Moritz's approach (which instead utilises magnesium sulphate / Epsom salts).

Since the risk of hypermagnesemia is a consideration when one consumes quite large amounts of magnesium sulphate, I personally prefer the orthophosphoric acid approach, since I have not encountered any negative reports relating to use of orthophosphoric acid itself. Still, thousands of people have successfully used Moritz's Epsom salts method successfully and without issue, so it's up to each person to choose for themselves.

[Arky]

Reading back through this thread, I see, to my shame (sorry Richard!), that I neglected to mention Richard Schulze's 5-day gallbladder detox, which is a kind of compromise cleanse, based upon many years of clinical experience, and may certainly be a safer approach than outright flushing, since it does not risk potential choledocholithiasis (though, again, I'm not saying I totally dislike flushing - just that I generally prefer more gradual, less-intense approaches. There are some circumstances in which an outright flush may still be the most appropriate course of action).

I have maximum respect for Schulze, in spite of his somewhat 'in-yer-face' stance on natural healing, because I understand where that stance comes from. He's done his time in the trenches, having had a clinic for a number of years, where he healed people of all manner of supposedly incurable diseases, and was attacked many times by the authorities, on highly suspect and dubious grounds. Schulze is not just another herbalist - he's the real deal, in the sense of a true natural healer, trained by the greats like Dr Christopher and Bernard Jensen. It's not just about taking herbs. Natural healing is a much bigger and more potent endeavour than that, though you could be forgiven for not realising this, given the pathetic state of modern herbalism.

If you want to see the real Schulze, I highly recommend you obtain his old 'Save Your Life' video collection, which can still be obtained online (in DVD format) from Sam Biser or in VHS format from secondhand sources such as eBay/Amazon.

As for his books, they're still available as paperbacks, but you can read them online for free. At the time I type this, Jill Davies has them conveniently listed on her UK website, and this includes the one about his 5-day liver/gallbladder detox:

https://secure.herbs-hands-healing.co.uk/acatalog/Dr.-Richard-Schulze-Books.html

Schulze's books are short and to-the-point, but well worth a read.


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