osteoporis

[garden granny]

I had a bone density scan done recently and my doctor says I am borderline osteoporis. He wants me to come in to discuss treatments, etc. I drink green smoothies all the time, and I thought that should be enough. What can I do so I don't have to take whatever medications/supplements the doctor is wanting me on?? BTW, I'm 55.

[sport]

I have the same problem.
I have been raw for almost 4 years and was diagnosed a couple of months ago. After I got over the disappointment and shock I started on supplements. Do not let them put you on Fosamax or things like that.
I take supplements in the morning and strontium at bedtime.

[RawLibrarian]

I had a bone density scan done recently and my doctor says I am borderline osteoporis. He wants me to come in to discuss treatments, etc. I drink green smoothies all the time, and I thought that should be enough. What can I do so I don't have to take whatever medications/supplements the doctor is wanting me on?? BTW, I'm 55.

Weight bearing exercise. That is essential in preventing osteoporosis or stopping osteopenia from turning into osteoporosis. Walking, yoga, lifting weights ... all these things will help you build bone mass.

Green smoothies are good sources of calcium; you might try adding citrus (oranges, lemons, limes) to the smoothie if you aren't already--the acid in citrus helps you absorb the calcium and iron in greens.

Storm and Jinjee Talifero have some really good green smoothie recipes that use orange juice as a base. You put 16 oz. fresh squeezed OJ in a blender, add LOTS of greens and the fruit of your choice. Because the OJ base is sweet, you can add more greens than you might if you use water as a base.

Sesame seeds are also high in calcium--so raw tahini would be great, as would making mylk from the sesame seeds or sprinkling them in salads, etc.

[Revvell]

As RL says, weight bearing exercises. Food is not enough. Movement is essential!

Revvell (http://LetsTalkRaw.com)

[pippin07]

[QUOTE=RawLibrarian;503109]Weight bearing exercise. That is essential in preventing osteoporosis or stopping osteopenia from turning into osteoporosis. Walking, yoga, lifting weights ... all these things will help you build bone mass.

I wonder if doing these things can actually reverse it; or if once you already have osteoporosis its too late?

I am 56 and too have Osteoporosis. I was told that my Tscore was at the level that I am at high risk for spine fracture. Iv know for almost 5 years that I have it and up until this point have refused to take the fosomax; that is until just recently. I actually got the prescription filled a couple weeks ago but have not been able to convince myself to start taking it.

Anyone know of any cases were someone actually reversed the osteoporosis?

[rawmiss]

Another factor could be fluoride, it is known to weaken bones. - even teeth - too much fluoride causes fluorosis. I'm not sure how to detox fluoride - magnetic clay perhaps? Anyone know?

This article talks about the effect of fluoride on bones and how it can be misdiagnosed as osteoporosis.
http://www.fluoridation.com/skeletal.htm#Table%201
"Human Skeletal Fluorosis

Table 1 shows the phases of skeletal fluorosis mentioned in the article below. None of them are likely to be recognised by North American doctors because they are not trained to diagnose fluorosis. The preliminary stages can easily be misdiagnosed for rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis or other similar diseases."

[NeGaGal]

Go to www.pubmed.gov and search using the words 'dried plum' You'll find a viewpoint article that points to eating dried plums (prunes) and the reversal of osteoporosis. There are many others... weight bearing exercise is also proven to reverse bone loss... but the foods search is fascinating.

[Veganforlife]

I agree - MOVE IT, MOVE IT, MOVE IT!

I'm not going to get a bone density test done. I need my money for oh, gas and food! Back in the day these tests weren't performed. It's a racket!!!

[Irish_Vegan_Girl]

Osteoperosis, can be caused by a number of factors, including medications/post-menopause/diet. The damage could have been done earlier in your life and you are seeing the effects on your body now.

How long have you been raw? I would expect you to see lots of improvements if you have been eating raw a long time. What you need is calcium and vitiman D, green smoothies are great and should be doing the trick but other sources or calcium include oranges, blackberries, kiwis, avocados, lima beans, apples ,bananas, chesnuts, peach, walnuts, etc. Exercise is really good for it too and can increase your balance which will in turn prevent or lessen falls.

As I said, it could be related to your diet in earlier life, did you eat lots of dairy? Contrary to what we are thought, dairy actually leaches calcium from the bones. In a society where dairy is plenty, and many go way over their RDA, how come so many women are developing osteoperosis in later life..

Anyway, I'm no specialist, but that is all I know about it so far.

[TaupeRawMan]

Dried figs are another good source of calcium...and very yummy!

[Veganforlife]

Sesame seeds - loaded with calcium...

[TaupeRawMan]

Sesame seeds - loaded with calcium...


Yes! The unhulled (brown) ones!

[cara4art]

Green smoothies, dark greens and other raw vegan mineral-rich foods are awesome, because there's more to the bone issue than calcium alone. One thing you need to be doing is weight-bearing exercise and strength-training. What a lot of people still don't know is that bone responds as well as muscles do with these kinds of stresses placed up on them, i.e. as your muscles get stronger, so do your bones. With a raw vegan diet, and cross-training in this fashion, as well as balance work, things should improve over time, and you will end up with stronger, more flexible bones that are less brittle. There are many instances of women who think they're doing great things by popping all these calcium pills and such, and they still have brittle bones. Sure, the bones might be harder, but they are still brittle, leaving one at a very real risk for fractures. A strong flexible bone can stand a lot more, although one sure doesn't want to push one's luck in this department. Retaining balance skills is essential as we age, because if we don't, there's the very real incident of walking down the street minding one's own business, and all of a sudden one goes splat. Weight-training helps with this too. Actually, some good trainers are incorporating balance and core moves into traditional weight-training exercises.
Avoiding the bone-robbers, like sugar, excess salt, excess animal protein(not a problem for folks here), caffeing is essential too, because all create acidity in the body, which then the bones have to buffer, giving up some of their valuable minerals to do so. So alkalizing the body through the high intake of dark greens and raw foods in general is hugely helpful in this regard.
Osteoporosis doesn't develop overnight, nor does it turn around overnight, but with getting some good habits in place it seems that things should improve and you should hopefully be able to stay away from questionable-sounding drugs. Hope this helps!

[sport]

The problem is that a lot of older people (like me) have to decide between weight bearing exercise to build up the bone and avoiding weight bearing exercise as it puts stress on the joints and the arthritis.
What to do. Save the spine or save the knees.

[didi_dancer]

I just wanted to say. That when I was 17 (I am 20 now) I had a stress fracture in my foot. Though I the time I was dancing ALOT. At the advice of the school doctor I had a bone density test were they said my levels were pre osteoporosis.(even though with some one very young the test can be inaccurate) I am very tiny and allways have been my parents were very thin when they were young and both late bloomers. Even though I am twenty people still mistake me for being 13 years old. I just switch to an all raw diet. Hoping that it will help my bones. All the dark leafy greens. I think you can heal your body with out "modern" medicine. I already feel so much better energy wise being raw.

[cara4art]

"The problem is that a lot of older people (like me) have to decide between weight bearing exercise to build up the bone and avoiding weight bearing exercise as it puts stress on the joints and the arthritis.
What to do. Save the spine or save the knees. " - sport

What a lot of people don't know is that for every excess pound one has on one's body, it places 5 pounds of excess pressure on the knees, contributing to joint problems and arthritis. So many people would benefit from losing at least a few pounds for this very reason. Just sayin...as I don't know what your particular weight situation is and I hope I haven't offended anyone...

[luckitri]

http://www.NaturalNews.com/024596.html

celery has nutrients good for osteoporosis. just can't find the specific article. good with cucumber juice also. personally I have no problem drinking it with nothing added.

[oceanluv]

bones are living (and raw, lol) and can rebuild themselves if given the right materials, which would be all the above post suggestions.

[sport]

bones are living (and raw, lol) and can rebuild themselves if given the right materials, which would be all the above post suggestions.

Please tell my bones that. They do not seem to have got the message. I am giving them all the help I can.

[spicyfull]

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?t=49505&referrerid=4614

[Myca]

I agree - MOVE IT, MOVE IT, MOVE IT!

I'm not going to get a bone density test done. I need my money for oh, gas and food! Back in the day these tests weren't performed. It's a racket!!!

I don't know about this being a racket. I have seen women crippled and chair bound with severe osteo, able to get up and clean their home, even mow the lawn, after being treated with Fosamax.
The problem is once you have already gotten it, you better do something before it gets worse. If you do not have it, take Oscal or something along those lines. Sometimes, our diets are not enough.

[lillierose]

From my understanding, we need magnesium, Vit. D and calcium to help fight osteoperosis. Vit. D is best gotten from the sun. The hours before and after the strongest times of the day.

Also high blood calcium can mean a depletion of calcium in the bones.

[sport]

From my understanding, we need magnesium, Vit. D and calcium to help fight osteoperosis. Vit. D is best gotten from the sun. The hours before and after the strongest times of the day.

Also high blood calcium can mean a depletion of calcium in the bones.

On one of Dr Mercola's newsletters in the past few days he suggested that to get the vit D you should not wash your skin (especially with soap) for 48 hours after you get the sunshine.
I assume from the report that the vitamin is made by micro bacteria on the skin and you should not wash them off.

[TaupeRawMan]

I asked my doctor to do a blood test panel of osteoporosis. Just found out my vitamin D level (vitamin d 25-hydroxy level) is very low (12 in a range that has a minimum of 32). Parathyroid Hormone was very high. I get lots of sunshine, so not sure what is going on. I just got the result from the lab and plan to talk with the doctor.

[Mary Kay]

I do not think I have osteo, but am 53 and my Vit D level just came back at something like 15 ---also very low, s/b 32 at the lowest. I've started on about 5000 iu's of Vit D3 and already was supplementing with CLO somewhat/occasionally, but now I am being more faithful. I'm also going to eat wild salmon once-a-week....Now all of you don't hate me!

A urine test just came back that showed I was not losing calcium in my urine, which is good, but these are some of the other things besides the Vit D, I'm implementing: I hate to say to add supplements, but I am. I also like the suggestion of the Vit C source at the same time as leafy greens, so the oxalates will bind with the Vit C and not bind with the minerals.

I am also believing in water-soluble ionic minerals, including a little extra boron and magnesium.

I am growing many of my own veggies and will be testing my soil for mineral deficiencies and incorporating them into it too.

Also, are you checking your pH and making sure you're alkaline?

I like the others' suggestions about the exercise too...whatever you can do and gradually build up.....

All I can think of.....HTH,

Mary Kay

.

[garden granny]

I had another bone scan last week, and the results are osteoporosis of the lumbar spine. Fracture risk is high. I was really shocked. I eat tons of greens, oranges, jog and walk 3 or 4 days a week, rebound, most of the stuff I'm supposed to do. Then today I did some research and found out that taking Synthroid can make you develop osteoporosis. I've been taking it for 15 years. I'm thinking that has to be the cause. But, don't think I can stop taking it. I haven't spoken to the doctor yet, but I'm hoping he can help me out with this, but not real sure.

[Arky]

Osteoporosis is an interesting topic, and one that could take up pages, pages and pages, but I'll try to be brief.


Mary Kay has already made some good points, and is being pragmatic in addressing some difficult ideological decisions.



As many of you know, hormones such as eostrogen are one important factor, as evidenced by many post-menopausal women experiencing osteoporosis, but, of course, it would be erroneous to therefore presume that the issue is entirely of hormonal origin. Just because many women do not become aware of poor bone mineral density until they are post-menopausal does not mean that numerous life choices during the preceding decades made no contribution to their present skeletal health. Of course, many doctors will lazily assert that it's all to do with oestrogen, and that HRT must surely be an enticing option. Few things, however, are ever really that simplistic.

Many women in traditional societies live to a ripe old age without experiencing osteoporosis. This fact should not be flippantly dismissed or overlooked. Don't hate me for saying this, but very few of them appear to be vegan. Fermented foods also appear to be a significant factor, more on which, further down this post.


In order to give yourself the best possible chance of naturally maintaining appropriate levels of circulating steroid hormones in the body (oestrogen being one of these), one needs to ensure the liver is functioning efficiently. I recommend reading Julia Chang's website for more on this topic:

sensiblehealth.com


You might consider using some endocrine-supportive substances, too, but these should not be considered an alternative to the above, only a potential adjunct. It is important to be careful with such substances, since balancing hormones is not as simple as one would wish. Still, potential options include maca etc, and of course there are also some well-known specific herbs, which I'll refrain from mentioning as I feel quite strongly that herbal hormone supplementation should be done under the expertise of a properly-qualified herbalist, if potential pitfalls are to be avoided.


Also consider that toxins such as mercury can dramatically undermine endocrine health. I'm not kidding - if you have mercury dental amalgams or have received many vaccinations during your lifetime, or have had some other source of potential exposure to mercury or other toxic heavy metals, then please do not underestimate what a profound effect they can have upon endocrine function. If you think this might be relevant to you, then be very, very careful to eliminate coriander (cilantro) from your diet, and if you require information on how to treat metal intoxication safely, then a good place to start would be to read some of the detailed discussions we've had on the topic, here on RFT, in the past 18 months or so.

Thyroid function is also important to check, for many health reasons, but including skeletal health. Mercury, in particular, can disrupt thyroid health severely, but there are many other factors which can affect the thyroid. Few people get enough iodine these days (unless they happen to consume commercial sodium-chloride table salt, fortified with iodine, which is not a particularly healthy thing to consume). Far better to consume a little dulse or (particularly) kelp, a few times a week, on an ongoing basis.


Please remember that, in addition to ensuring efficient liver function (in order to improve the chances of proper regulation of circulating hormone levels), it is also important to ensure that liver and gallbladder are functioning efficiently. The two are directly linked to one another. This is important, not just from the hormone perspective, but also from the point of view that good bile secretion is vital for properly digesting fat-soluble vitamins, and this is vital in order to properly absorb minerals such as calcium.


Then there's the issue of nutrients. Many vegans think they can bury their heads in the sand on this one, but whilst you can fool yourself, you can't fool nature. Vitamin D is vital for good calcium metabolism. There's no getting away from that fact. Some maintain sunbathing is sufficient (though, significantly, and irresponsibly, they very seldom concede that those living nearer the equator have far more opportunity than those in northerly or southerly latitudes; it is absolutely no coincidence that CLO is most commonly consumed in Scandinavia - a place with a very high latitude), others maintain supplementation or (shock-horror) non-vegan foods to be necessary to ensure sufficient levels of vitamin D. I'm not going to presume to tell any of you what you should or shouldn't eat, or to question your ideology, but all I will say is that if you are experiencing osteoporosis, it would be very wise to get your vitamin D levels checked, and if they are low, then you will need to take a long hard look at what you seriously intend to do to address this.

Avoid excessive sugar or fruit consumption. Fructose and other sugars can raise insulin levels in the blood, and this can detrimentally affect circulating levels of calcium and phosphorous in the blood. Longterm, this will have a detrimental effect upon skeletal mineralisation.

Avoid excessive tea consumption (including herbal teas, not only camellia sinensis). Teas in general are rather diuretic, and, over the longer term, can result in excretion of many electrolytes and other minerals.

What of other factors? Well, collagen is vital for strong, flexible bones. Does this mean you must consume collagen? Not necessarily.
Consumption of highly-absorbable silicon is very helpful for promoting good skeletal collagen levels. Orthosilicic acid is particularly excellent as a silicon supplement, but there are food-based forms of silicon which are reasonably absorbable. Horsetail (shavegrass), oatstraw tea, nettle leaf, radish, etc. are all viable. Fruits and vegetables with shiny skins are often an indication of silicon content (apples, cucumbers etc., for example), but in order to get a serious amount of silicon into your diet, you're going to have to think seriously about how to include it - an apple a day isn't going to do the trick.

Everyone always thinks of calcium, when they think of strong bones, but they forget that some foods rich in calcium (such as sesame seeds, swiss chard, spinach etc.) are also rich in oxalic acid, which binds the calcium, thus making it difficult for the human digestive system to absorb an appreciable amount of calcium from their ingestion. Fermenting foods can make minerals more assimilable.

Good phosphorous intake is also very important for good skeletal health. Nuts and seeds are relatively high in phosphorous (but do be aware of phytic acid issues, discussed lower down).

Another benefit of fermenting foods is that this supports healthy gut ecology, and these gut-resident microbes play a very significant role in increasing human absorption of digested foods. It's a win-win, in terms of mineral absorption and overal human health. You can even increase the mineral content of fermented vegetables by sprinkling a little dulse, and some soil-based humic/fulvic acid mineral complex, into your fermenting jar prior to fermenting. This is an age-old trick, but you will also see Donna Gates doing this, in her fermenting tutorial videos on youtube.

Boron can also be helpful for bone health, should you wish to supplement it a little.

Magnesium is also important - it often gets ignored by people chasing calcium. Calcium and magensium co-exist in specific ratio to one another, in the human body. Many people are deficient in magnesium. There are many possible dietary sources, including dark leafy greens, and various seeds, but do give proper consideration to how to get a genuinely decent intake - it's not as easy as you might think. You can type in a few possibilities, to see their magnesium levels, here:

nutritiondata.self.com



If you have osteoporosis, then, as a general rule, whenever consuming foods, always consider if you have made an effort to minimise foods rich in oxalic acid or phytic acid. This would include nuts and seeds, which should be soaked overnight, even if you have no intention of sprouting them.


Weight-bearing exercise has also been mentioned in this thread. Wolff's Law is worth reading, in relation to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolff's_law




I'm certain many more factors will occur to me, moments after I post this, but I think that's sufficient for now...

Good luck to all of you dealing with osteoporosis. I wish you every success, but please don't go into denial. If ideology or habit has led you to this point, then something is going to have to give, if a change is to occur in your skeletal health. There's no getting away from that fact.

If any of you have any success stories to report, as time goes by, I'm sure many of us here on RFT would be very happy to hear of them :-)

[garden granny]

Thank you Arky, what a wealth of information, and alot to look into. I'd like to give an update after I speak to my doctor and research a little more.

[Mary Kay]

After seeing a recent post, I came back here to throw in my two cents, about Vit D and fermented veggies.....and well, see Arky beat me to the punch on the fermented veggies.....You're the best.


And I don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but I am doing progesterone as well. You can get progesterone cream OTC. I'm taking it for two weeks every month, beginning on the fifteenth, through the end of the month.

Mary Kay

[Arky]

And I don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but I am doing progesterone as well. You can get progesterone cream OTC. I'm taking it for two weeks every month, beginning on the fifteenth, through the end of the month.

Mary Kay


Mary, were you diagnosed as having low progesterone levels, or are you just taking it speculatively?

(don't worry, I'm not trying to catch you out, I'm just curious, and if you prefer not to answer this, I quite understand :-).

You might, perhaps, recall our brief discussion on progesterone, in relation to heavy metals, from quite some time ago, here:

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?42893-MSM-Powder-Warning&p=661208#post661208

It's a complex topic, that much is certain.

I hope you are feeling benefits from your various treatment approaches to your situation, and I must say I'm glad to see you are being pragmatic and honest about it all, rather than slipping into denial (we've all done that at some point in life!)

Take care.


.

[Mary Kay]

LOL Arky,

My life's an open book if it will help someone!

I am currently 57 and have just begun menopause. Heavy metals is a new one to me as being something that can lower progesterone, but stress and being 57 are not!

I learned all about hormones in my early 40's after I had just gotten married and was trying to conceive. At the time, I was low/totally stressed etc. High cortisol blocks progesterone. It's nature's way. Pretty cool. If you're too stressed out in life, then you shouldn't have kids.

I'm stressd out now remodeling our house head-to-toe and living in a camper, homeschooling my kids etc.....

I will test again though --prob this summer.

There seems to be a lot of evidence, that says P4 can actually reverse bone loss....well, that combined with all the other stuff....

Mary Kay

[garden granny]

Still haven't heard from my doctor at all, so I went out and bought Nature's Way Alive! Calcium Bone Formula from Whole Foods. Looks like its all from natural food sources (greens, fruits, algae). I'm gonna order nettles and oatstraw and make herbal infusions (Susun Weed)........so getting started with what I feel can only help. Also, changing my attitude to a more positive one and reading the Word and all the healing verses.

[Mary Kay]

Sounds like a good attitude, Garden Granny.

If you don't mind sharing, what was your number? And did you have the x-ray -type thing, or the heel -thing? A year or two ago, I had the heel thing --don't know how accurate that is and it said I was a -1.2.

Mary Kay

[garden granny]

Sure Mary Kay, I had a DEXA bone density scan. T-score was -3.0. Is that pretty bad?


Sounds like a good attitude, Garden Granny.

If you don't mind sharing, what was your number? And did you have the x-ray -type thing, or the heel -thing? A year or two ago, I had the heel thing --don't know how accurate that is and it said I was a -1.2.

Mary Kay

[Mary Kay]

They say anything less than 2.5 is osteoporosis. so at -3, that's probably bad. I do believe it can be reversed though.

Mary Kay

[Arky]

...There seems to be a lot of evidence, that says P4 can actually reverse bone loss....well, that combined with all the other stuff....

Mary Kay

'P4' ? Not sure what you're referring to - can you elaborate, please?


As for the cortisol - you had kids and you consequently must accept your suffering! lol ;-)

[Arky]

BTW, going back to nutritional factors surrounding osteoporosis, my reply to someone in another thread, last night (relating to abdominal pain and probiotics) jogged my memory this morning, about zinc.

Zinc is also very relevant for the topic of osteoporosis because insufficient dietary intake of zinc may impact the endocrine system, and thus maintenance and synthesis of appropriate hormone levels in the body.

Also, since zinc is required by the parietal cells of the stomach, levels of stomach acidity may be sub-optimal in a zinc-deficient individual.

Insufficient stomach acidity may seriously impact proper digestion of minerals such as calcium.


A reasonable ready-reckoner for nutrient levels in the foods you regularly consume may be found here:

nutritiondata.self.com/


.

[Mary Kay]

Arky,

P4 is the abbreviation for progesterone....Sorry, just automatic....


Also, re your previous post ---amazing how the body performs like an orchestra....or is it vica versa.....

Mary Kay

[Arky]

Arky,

P4 is the abbreviation for progesterone....Sorry, just automatic....


Also, re your previous post ---amazing how the body performs like an orchestra....or is it vica versa.....

Mary Kay


Ah, thanks for the clarification!


Re' the symphony of activity in the body, I totally agree. It is so vastly complex, and so awe-inspiring. A pity, then, that modern medicine's approach to handling the complexities of it's function is to compartmentalise the various organs into specialities which specialists and surgeons train to understand in great detail (a laudible aim), but with the ever-present risk of overlooking the fact that no organ operates in isolation from any other part of the body. I appreciate that that's rather an over-simplification, and of course doctors and surgeons do have training in whole physiology and anatomy before they go into a specialised area of practice, but after several years of focusing on one particular area of the body, I do feel that some of them lose perspective on the complexities of interaction between the various areas of the body. This perspective is an art which must be intentionally nurtured, and is something traditional naturopathic physicians, homeopaths, and herbalists (those trained properly, under apprenticeship to a master, for many years) were extremely mindful of. But I'm digressing... ;-)

[CINDY A]

BESIDES ALL THE INFO TRY ASPIRIN---ARTICLE BELOW--YOU CAN FIND THE FULL ARTICLE ON THE NET....
Benefits Of Aspirin For Treating Osteoporosis Uncovered

July 10, 2008 — Researchers at the University of Southern California, School of Dentistry have uncovered the health benefits of aspirin in the fight against osteoporosis. Forty-four million Americans, 68 percent of whom are women, suffer from the debilitating effects of osteoporosis according to the National Institute of Health. One out of every two women and one in four men over 50 will have an osteoporosis-related fracture in their lifetime.

This latest study identifies aspirin's medicinal role on two fronts. In mice, the drug appears to prevent both improper bone resorption and the death of bone-forming stem cells.
An aspirin regimen appears to help mice recover from osteoporosis in two useful ways, striking a balance between bone formation and resorption, according to Associate Professor Songtao Shi and Research Associate Takayoshi Yamaza of the USC School of Dentistry's Center for Craniofacial Molecular Biology (CCMB).