Organic - Conspiracy?

[yellowlilax]

Whenever I tell people I eat organic, they act like it's a joke. Recently, my husband's uncle said their neighbor (farmers) is USDA certified organic, but buys the same cows at the same sale barns he does and they're obviously not organic. He also said once you get certification, that's it. They never come check back on you but you continue to hold the organic title....

Then last night, I emailed a fruit producer inquiring about the possibility of organic in the future and received this email:


As to organics there are a couple of problems, supply being the largest. Packing or processing “organic” really means nothing other than separating the run from other traditional products. However, from a horticulturist standpoint, the potential contaminations come FROM the organic products. I would encourage you to look past the hype and emotional appeal of organics because there actually is no indication that they are safer or have any greater food value than traditionally grown products. I buy some organics simply because they tend to be locally grown, vine or tree ripened and sometimes “heirloom” varieties. Again, it’s all about the taste for me. On the other side though, bacteria and fungus control in organics can be suspect. Those are the causes of food born illnesses, not pesticide residues that have never been shown to cause or contribute to any illnesses. Organic SOUNDS good but it’s sort of like saying that “I never would take antibiotics or have surgery”. It’s interesting that the biggest abusers of “pesticides” are people over applying them to their yards! We live in a interesting world.


Also came across this on Dr. Weils website:
Deal, a Republican, inserted wording that would allow farmers to use non-organic feed for their livestock but to sell the meat, eggs and dairy products from those animals as "organic." Until then, the organic standard required that meat and dairy products couldn't be labeled "organic" unless the animals were fed organically grown food. Deal acted in response to a request from a big constituent and campaign contributor, Fieldale Farms, a chicken processing company. Congress passed the appropriations bill containing Deal's provision, which means that it is now the law.


Do you think its all a hype? I can't personally imagine that chemicals being sprayed on foods and us eating them is healthy. I do question; however, that the USDA stamp of organic approval is consistent and if the farmers are ever checked up on after being certified. And what do they let slide to begin with?

[sarahrjm]

Im on the fence about Organic - Honestly, the air I breath is toxic, by eating RAW I am giving an amazing gift to my body. When I walk into the food store I grab what looks good! when I look at my reciept, sometimes its all organic, sometimes 75%, sometimes 50% and sometimes not organic at all......Does it effect me in any way I can tell? no..........Honestly, I dont even pay attention enough for the price of organic to effect me.

[juliebove]

I've had people get angry or laugh hysterically when I say that I buy organic. They try to tell me it is no different than the regular stuff and that I am being duped into thinking it is.

I never for an instant thought that it contained any more nutrition than regular produce. I don't know why people would think that it does, but they do. On an episode of "Jon And Kate Plus Eight", one of the children shows a bottle of vitamins that she says they need to take on vacation because they won't be eating organic.

I do believe the difference is in the chemicals that are in the produce.

Yes, we are constantly taking in toxins all day long. But why take more in if we don't need to?

[HolyGuacamole]

Heh, I would never take antibiotics, unless they were going to save my life.

Anyway, it's an interesting question, and no, I don't think it's all hype.
It makes no sense to me that a seller of organically grown produce would go to the trouble and expense of getting certified only to stop growing organically once certification is attained.

There are tons of articles that suggest that continuing oversight is shoddy:
http://www.google.com/search?q=organic+food+oversight&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
...so that's something that needs to be addressed, for sure.

The first and last instances you mention are referring to meat and dairy, which is irrelevant to me and is toxic no matter how you slice it, organic or not - and as far as I can see they are not using the same standards applied to produce growers, which makes sense.
And the note from the fruit grower is entirely without credibility, as it was specifically written to defend their position as non-organic growers.

Here's some info:

O. If certified, the producer may now sell certified organic products. Organic standards need to be followed throughout the year. Documentation of all crop production activities and inputs, storage and sales need to be maintained for review by next year's inspector.

P. A renewal questionnaire must be submitted each year. Organic inspections also must occur annually. If you decide to discontinue your organic certification, you should contact your agency and surrender your organic certificate. If you do not do this, and do not submit your annual renewal, then the agency will revoke your certification. This revocation will be part of your permanent file and will make subsequent organic certification more complicated.

Q. Each certification agency is required by the USDA to perform a specific number of surprise (unannounced) inspections of certified organic operations. These surprise visits are chosen randomly. Your farm may be subject to a surprise inspection at any time.
http://www.mosesorganic.org/attachments/productioninfo/fscertification.html

I have about 10 pages open right now, reading about it. It's pretty interesting stuff. Every organization that offers certification has some system in place to insure that those growers seeking continued certification are in fact continuing to grow organically.

Seems to me that the bottom line is you have to put some faith in the integrity of the certifying body, and in the grower.

I can see and taste the difference in the organic produce I buy from produce that is conventionally grown, so I feel pretty confident I am getting produce that is indeed truly organic. I guess I have that faith I was talking about.

[GlimR]

"Again, it’s all about the taste for me. On the other side though, bacteria and fungus control in organics can be suspect. Those are the causes of food born illnesses, not pesticide residues that have never been shown to cause or contribute to any illnesses."

You're kidding me right????

I would be highly suspect of anyone who made the above statement.

1. Yes, organic tastes better.
2. Food borne illness is caused by waste water run off from polluted cesspits and manure dumps of adjacent farms. Wash your produce!
3. Pesticides not shown to cause illness????...they are carcinogenic at best. Every other argument aside...I eat organic because they are grown without pesticides and I for one choose not to pollute my body with poisons.

There have been many studies done that compare the nutritional value of say, an organic apple to a conventionally grown one and the organic is vastly higher that the conventional..

To each his own...I'd take what a conventional grower says with a grain of salt.

[GlimR]

PS........buy from smaller farms, local growers, farm markets....maybe not Wal_Mart!:rolleyes:

[jacsam]

I love to buy from locally grown farmers and getting walnuts and fruits from my neighbors but most the time I'm buying from the store and I get the best that is available and with in the budget I have.....then I enjoy it and feel happy.

[HolyGuacamole]

PS........buy from smaller farms, local growers, farm markets....maybe not Wal_Mart!:rolleyes:

Ditto that!

[snoops]

1. Yes, organic tastes better.


ditto that too:D

[RawHeaven]

PS........buy from smaller farms, local growers, farm markets....maybe not Wal_Mart!:rolleyes:

Double ditto that.

It does happen that some farmers abuse the organic certification - it happens. But not on a scale large enough to justify that there is not a distinction between conventional & organic produce.

I think this is all about people inherently knowing the truth and not wanting or being able to make changes in their lives. We are a nation that is emotionally and compulsively attached to our food. Anything that justifies keeping the insanity rolling works just fine. For example, statements mentioning there is no difference if you choose organic produce. :rolleyes: Just my opinion.

[yellowlilax]

PS........buy from smaller farms, local growers, farm markets....maybe not Wal_Mart!:rolleyes:

This WAS a local grower that I contacted actually. I grow a lot of my veggies in the summer, but I live in the Midwest...it's winter here and I have to find other sources. I also live in a tiny apartment w/ no garage so growing everything indoors is impossible. I am the one that WANTS to believe that organic is better - I just want to justify it with facts when I have the nay-sayers against me when I mention organics. I will continue to buy organic regardless. Didnt know it was worth an eyeroll in my direction :(

[GlimR]

Not in your direction at all lilax....more intended toward Wal-Mart (basically a company I can't stand) and the fact that they take business away from the small growers. Neither was it a condemnation of any kind toward what anyone chooses to do, just my opinion~

@)--`-----------

[sport]

There is no guarantee that all of the organic produce that you buy are up to standard but you are certainly increasing your chances if you try.

[GlimR]

http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/12-27/health-benefits-of-organic-food-article.htm

[HolyGuacamole]

Didnt know it was worth an eyeroll in my direction :(

Oh, gosh, I didn't think the eyes were being rolled at you at all...
I certainly didn't think that's what was meant when I quoted them rollin' eyes. *hugs*
Personally I think any mention of Wal-Mart should be appended with an eye roll. (Count me among those anti-WM folks.) ;)


Anyway, I wouldn't base my conclusions on the two sources you cited. I just don't think they're credible. Keep on doing the best you can, buy organic if and when you can, and don't worry about people who tell you you're wasting your money - that's what I would do.

[RawKnitster]

That is a typical response from someone who thinks organic food is for liberals and wackos (probably the same in their mind). Anyone that says produce commercially grown with chemical fertilizers, pesticides and fungicides is nutritionally equal to organic produce has either been given false information or just doesn't know what they are talking about.

I try to buy organic whenever possible. If kale is $2 and organic kale is $5, I'll go to another store. Here is a link that can help us decide which produce we should buy organic. The basic rule is if you peel it and it has a thick skin, non-organic is okay. Otherwise buy organic or do without.

http://www.foodnews.org/walletguide.php

Want to see more scary stuff, google "dirty dozen foods".

[yellowlilax]

thanks everyone!

[curlygirl82]

Well, I buy organic whenever possible. I find that I get fuller faster with organic, so to me, that seems like it's better produce. If that's because of things other than organic, so be it. I just want to eat the best food possible, period.

Here's Kevin Gianni's take on this question. It's pretty good:

http://renegadehealth.com/blog/why-eating-organic-foods-should-be-a-no-brainer-the-renegade-health-show-episode-51/

[Coolexplosion]

Well, this is pretty much my Christmas question. I'm not gonna be boring and answer it in paragraph form so, here goes with stars!

* Check the Environmental Working Group's website. They test both organic and non-organic and consistently the organic stuff contains less pesticides.

* The Organic Consumers Association and Organic Trade Association are the two agencies I know that do organic and are wary of organic wannabes. Since I know the OCA and I don't know the OTA, I can attest that the OCA does its fair share.

* I was warned way ahead of time about contaminated organic meat and when it was pulled a couple months later, I was glad I knew. The OCA warned against Horizon Organic, Aurora Organic, Wild Oats Organics (milk), and Target/Walmart Organic milk a long while ago. It was proven that they were correct in their assertion. I would add Stonyfield Farms to that list actually.

* Packaged foods clearly are better off bought organic. Labels must be adhered to and the organic stuff has no preservatives, MSG, artificial flavors, dyes, etc.

* The best produce is obviously bought from your local farmer whom you KNOW uses organic standards.

Don't believe local farmers that don't do organic themselves, they're heavily biased. I've spoken to a few non-organic farmers and even a distributor and they preach on and on about how stupid organic is. These people just fear that if organic becomes too mainstream they have to actually do work instead of just throwing pesticides and artificial fertilizers on everything and calling it a day. Follow the money.

[Lady Green Jeans]

Great thread. I don't always buy organic as my budget does not fit it all the time. I do know organic tastes better--an unexpected blind taste test with conventional vs. organic tomatoes proved it to me (eating tomato chunks while checking the new threads on this site and one tasted very much better than the prior piece--looking down, it was the organic that just was so much better).

Some things like avos and some greens I don't worry about. Baby spinach and most fruits I try to go organic. I go to my local farmers' market on Saturdays and stock up with what looks the freshest for the season. Right now avos, collards, root veggies like radishes and beets, and hard squashes were my recent purchases. Also got some truly raw almonds. I ask the people selling the produce for the growers (some are actually the growers, though) and they are pretty open on their farming practices.

My hope is to get raised bed gardening started before spring so I can grow some of my own produce. Each payday I pick up one pack of organic seeds of something I'd like to grow and enjoy. Maybe with the lousy ecomony there will again be more home gardeners.