More dehydrator questions true or not

[mels]

Hi all I have been doing research still on dehydrators and I found a list where they discuss the excalibur verses the Good4U and they say the Good4U is made out of ABS plastic which is toxic :eek: so I am was hoping to get ya'lls take on this.

I still have the site if anyone wants to check it out.

I was really leaning toward the Good4U but after reading that, it kind of scares me but then I don't really know to much about it all and thats why I was hoping you all could help.
Thanks
Look forward to hearing back from you all.
mels
Busy checking out all the interesting posts and recipes :D

[kaybee]

argh. i was going to mention that when i saw your post...i saw that discussion on another raw foods website.... but then i figured that alissa sold the good4u, so...

maybe its a legitmate question though... and maybe you should ask alissa. or ask the moderators to ask alissa. if it IS actually the case that the plastic that that one is made out of is a problem, then Im sure Alissa would want to know about the problem/and/or address the problem with the company, and perhaps shes already heard people talking about this and knows more about whether this is just a rumor... id try to ask alissa.

[mels]

I just got done shooting off an email to Alissa so I will see what she says.
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
mel

[raweater]

Probably only the case is made of ABS and not the actual trays, the exaclibur is probably the same.

[eachpeachpearplum]

This is a very good question and one I have been struggling with as in the end it's a question of cost.

One I have been seriously considering is the D-10 by The Sausage Company - sorry 'bout the name. This is fabricated in stainless steel with a chrome option. I have read that it is strongly suggested to get the more pricy chrome option as the trays may rust in SS.

http://www.harvestessentials.com/ststdemod10.html?gclid=COGDgPuMgJcCFQ8Qagod93U8ZQ

Another plus to this one is that there is the option to buy fitted silicone mats instead of the suspect Teflex sheets.

Cheers,

EPPP

[kaybee]

are silicone mats better? is silicone different from teflex? ive found parchment paper works better and lets stuff dry quicker than the teflex sheets anyway... and actually i guess parchment paper is silicone coated.... what is silicone anyway?

[eachpeachpearplum]

are silicone mats better? is silicone different from teflex? ive found parchment paper works better and lets stuff dry quicker than the teflex sheets anyway... and actually i guess parchment paper is silicone coated.... what is silicone anyway?

Excellent question! I must admit to being ignorant on this subject but for references to Alzheimer’s with regard to the coating on Teflex sheets as they are coated with Teflon. However as far as I know Teflon is rendered more unsafe through being heated like in a frying pan. This is not face just what I have read here and there..

I did a search on Silicone and came up with this. Silicone starts as common sand:

"Silicone bakeware and other kitchen utensils are safe to use. Silicones are made chemically by creating a "backbone" of silicon (from common sand) and oxygen molecules, a combination that does not occur in nature. Then various other synthetic molecules are added branching off of the main silicon-oxygen line to create hundreds of different silicones that range from liquids to rubbery solids. Though this is a completely manmade product, it is completely inert and will not transfer to foods.

Health and Environmental Effects

I tried to find some information on the health effects of silicone rubber, but it was not listed in any of the toxic chemical databases I use.

I went to the Dow Corning website (who makes over 700 different silicone rubbers) and looked at a random sample of their MSDSs. The ones I read listed no hazardous materials or health effects, or needed first aid measures. All descriptions I read of silicone rubber describe it as chemically inert and stable, so it is unlikely to react with or leach into food, nor outgas vapors. MSDSs also note that silicone is not toxic to aquatic or soil organisms, it is not hazardous waste, and while it is not biodegradable, it can be recycled after a lifetime of use."

I like you idea of using parchment and have considered it before but to honest I'm just lazy. When I do dehydrating I do it in huge batches and just cant be bothered!:o I know my bad!

[kaybee]

yep, definitely sounds better. honestly, i think youre better off environmentally with the silicone mats than the parchment, becasue the mats are reusable, right? i was hesistant about using parchment because i hate having to throw stuff away, but i was short a couple teflex sheets, so i tried it one time, and i was actually much happier with it than with the teflex. stuff dried alot quicker through the paper than through the teflex, i think because you still get some airflow through it or something. ive heard of some people having problems with stuff sticking to the paper, but with the stuff i made (crackers and cookies i think), i didnt have a problem, and i also found i could reuse the paper if i was making the same thign immediately. plus i only use the dehydrator a couple times a month, if that. im too lazy ;p to make stuff, so i usually just end up buying cooked junk instead. at least youre un-lazy enough to actually MAKE the stuff. but i guess u have to , cuz u have kids ;) i know of some people who wont buy teflex sheets because the manufacturing process for teflon is so pollutive (is that a word?)

[RawFoodGuy]

Hi -

This is Robert, from RawFoodLife.com. I've was the largest dealer for Good4U dehydrators on eBay and recently had to stop selling most of them myself, as did Alissa. Someone emailed me and told me that Alissa stopped selling Good4U and wondered what to do, so I thought you guys should know what is going on since Alissa was a terrific Good4U supporter and I know some of you folks on Raw Food Talk still want to buy them.

But first let me explain the ABS plastic issue. All plastic dehydrators, including the high-priced competition, uses ABS plastic. ABS is a durable, safe plastic used in lots of things you take for granted including toys for kids, because it is so stable and safe. The food grade ABS plastic used in Good4U dehydrators, and similar models made in China, is completely safe, especially at the low temps in dehydrators. You and I both know that Alissa would never put something on her site if it was perfectly safe. And if you know me and my website (#1 on Google for raw food) neither would I. In addition, Teflex sheets are safe, too, though if you are worried about that you can use parchment paper. Teflon doesn't make toxic fumes until it gets over 560 degree F. Dehydrators don't go over 160. Just don't cut anything with a knife on them if you want them to last, and don't want little pieces getting around.

The reason that Alissa and I stopped selling Good4U dehydrators is that they basically sold out (I have a few 6 tray models left). I've replaced them with another brand that is EXACTLY THE SAME, made in the same factory in China. It is called the VegiKiln, and this distributor is much bigger than Good4U, so they will not run out! In addition, they provide a very high level of quality control, which smaller companies can't offer. I will have 6, 8 and 10 tray models available.

My first listing on eBay is for a 10-tray model (item #350138970882) or contact me at robert@RawFoodLife.com for more info. They'll be on my web store soon, too.

I have sold hundreds of these dehydrators, for a fraction of the price of the bigger, more expensive competition...and I have yet to hear anything bad about them! I have the more expensive brand myself, but I actually like using the Good4/VegiKiln better. For one thing, I kept the expensive 9 tray I had in the garage since it was so noisy, but my Good4U sits in the kitchen without a problem. Also, the self-closing front design is the first major improvement in horizontal airflow dehydrators ever! Everything dries much much faster with the improved airflow over the trays!

I hope this post doesn't sound too promotional...I really just wanted to clear up some misconceptions and let anyone interested know they can still get these great dehydrators literally for a small fraction of the pricier ones.

Hope this helps,

[jenbooks]

You have no guarantee of the safety of plastic, even when not heated, and especially when heated. This applies to teflex too and probably to silicone.

You must understand that scientists working in the laboratory are finding hormone mimics in many plastics even the so-called safe ones and so much so that the plastic (in for instance cages and water feeders) is disrupting the experiments. This applies to so called safe plastics. Dehydrators heat up to around 100 degrees or more. This is HOT and don't think that food on the teflex and inside plastic dehydrators for a day or more at 100 degrees does NOT absorb offgassing from the plastics IT DOES. The problem is that the estrogen receptor is attracted to phenolic compounds, and most plastics and in fact many chemicals such as pesticides etc are made with phenolic compounds as they are adaptable and strong and can be made into various polymers.

Just because it has been accepted as safe so far means NOTHING. This is one serious flaw in the raw food movement. You should be using steel and chrome and should not use teflex sheets.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=analyze-risks-of-phthalates-together

http://uk.reuters.com/article/scienceNewsMolt/idUKTRE4BH4WK20081218

You have no guarantee they're safe and Alissa who is wonderful is not a scientist.

I've talked with these scientists.

For a dehydrator I would only get chrome and steel. I would never heat anything in plastic nor store it for any length of time. Store in glass.

[Revvell]

Hi -
You and I both know that Alissa would never put something on her site if it was perfectly safe.

Think you might want to change the wording here?

[AKRaw]

This is a very good question and one I have been struggling with as in the end it's a question of cost.

One I have been seriously considering is the D-10 by The Sausage Company - sorry 'bout the name. This is fabricated in stainless steel with a chrome option. I have read that it is strongly suggested to get the more pricy chrome option as the trays may rust in SS.

http://www.harvestessentials.com/ststdemod10.html?gclid=COGDgPuMgJcCFQ8Qagod93U8ZQ

Another plus to this one is that there is the option to buy fitted silicone mats instead of the suspect Teflex sheets.

Cheers,

EPPP

I have the D-10 and love it. But I've never used anything else so I can't compare.

Rhea

[Coolexplosion]

You have no guarantee of the safety of plastic, even when not heated, and especially when heated. This applies to teflex too and probably to silicone.

You must understand that scientists working in the laboratory are finding hormone mimics in many plastics even the so-called safe ones and so much so that the plastic (in for instance cages and water feeders) is disrupting the experiments. This applies to so called safe plastics. Dehydrators heat up to around 100 degrees or more. This is HOT and don't think that food on the teflex and inside plastic dehydrators for a day or more at 100 degrees does NOT absorb offgassing from the plastics IT DOES. The problem is that the estrogen receptor is attracted to phenolic compounds, and most plastics and in fact many chemicals such as pesticides etc are made with phenolic compounds as they are adaptable and strong and can be made into various polymers.

Just because it has been accepted as safe so far means NOTHING. This is one serious flaw in the raw food movement. You should be using steel and chrome and should not use teflex sheets.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=analyze-risks-of-phthalates-together

http://uk.reuters.com/article/scienceNewsMolt/idUKTRE4BH4WK20081218

You have no guarantee they're safe and Alissa who is wonderful is not a scientist.

I've talked with these scientists.

For a dehydrator I would only get chrome and steel. I would never heat anything in plastic nor store it for any length of time. Store in glass.

Heed this poster's warning. Bisphenol-A (BPA) was just found to be toxic and it has promptly been banned by the Canadian government and other governments around the world but the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) continues on that it is perfectly safe. This just proves that things that we thought were safe (plastics) are quickly becoming dangerous.

People have an easier time now though. Teflon is known to be a carcinogen (causes cancer) because it turns into another substance when heated. Teflon is used on non-stick cookware. Now they are making their teflex sheets with the same material and calling it safe.

Now, I'm not saying that's not true but, the real question is, do you want to take the chance dealing with a product that is known to cause cancer? If you do, go for it and use teflex sheets. If you're worried, use something else. I personally would never trust the DuPont company in dealing with my food in any way. Since the raw foods movement isn't mainstream enough, teflex sheets will not be looked at in major scientific studies. Basically, you're going to have to take DuPont's word for it that these things are safe.

Taking the manufacturer's word that a product they make is safe, makes sense!

[OrganicBoy]

I'd be very weary of fda practices and everything it approves. Also, personally, I'd be cautious heating up any plastic to any degree. As another member mentioned, use glass for storage. Not sure where they get their data but here is an exerpt from greenpeace website about ABS plastic located here (http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/pvcdatabase/bad.html):
"Acrylonitrile-Butadiene-Styrene (ABS) is used as a hard plastic in many applications like pipes, car bumpers and toys (hard building blocks). ABS uses a number of hazardous chemicals. These include butadiene and styrene (see above) and acrylonitrile. Acrylonitrile is highly toxic and readily absorbed by humans by inhalation and directly through the skin. Both the liquid and its vapor are highly toxic. Acrylonitrile is classified as a probable human carcinogen as are styrene and butadiene."

As for teflon sheets, it has been lknown that teflon is dengerous. dupont has settled at least 2 lawsuits in the past aand yet corporations keep putting teflon on cookware. As an alternative, you may want to look into unbleached wax paper:
http://www.greenfeet.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=6006-00008-0000

And now back to FDA. They seem to act as big business safety net, rather then protection for consumers. You may find these podcasts great eye openers:
Just scroll down and press play button.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/podcast/?p=episode&name=2008-09-22_031_the_murdering_fda.mp3

http://www.lewrockwell.com/podcast/?p=episode&name=2008-11-09_063_vicious_vaccines.mp3

http://www.lewrockwell.com/podcast/?p=episode&name=2008-12-17_086_the_medical_industrial_complex.mp3

Also, as individuals that are obviously into healthy habbits I think you may be interested in these worrying items:

Codex Alimentarius
=============
http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/)

Watch the video by HealthFreedomUSA.org. Doctor explains every detail about codex and how US citizens can fight it.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5266884912495233634

Learn about Genetic Modification of food happening today, in this country. Protect yourself and your children.
http://www.seedsofdeception.com/Public/BuyingNon-GMO/GMFoodsataGlance/index.cfm

Handy non-GMO shopping guide in PDF (13 pages) contains brands that are non-GMO and brands that are GMO for your reference including infant and baby formulas.
http://www.responsibletechnology.org/documentFiles/144.pdf


Stay healthy!

[RawFoodGuy]

I have probably been "green" since before some of you were born. Though I am not a scientist, I have several hundred scientific references on my website, www.rawfoodlife.com. I carefully research most of the scientific data I have on my website.

These posts on the dangers of some plastics are misleading in several important ways. Mostly they are taken out of context and overemphasize a sensationalistic, irrational approach, in my opinion.

First, acrylonitrile is an additive in ABS plastic, added to make the plastic even more temperature resistant. It is indeed a highly toxic chemical by itself, if you can find a jar of the stuff and get it on your skin or something. But not when it is combined into a highly stable compound, such as ABS plastic. You own stomach juice (hydrochloric acid) is highly dangerous if it is taken out of your stomach!

There are many examples of things that are toxic if you take them out of context, but are fine otherwise. ABS plastic, in fact,, is so stable it is used to make tatoo inks...so if you have any tatoos you better worry since if you get the flue your body can get quite hot!

Don't worry, I was just kidding. The plasticizers/phthalates in soft plastics are much more volatile and should always be avoided. These are NOT found in ABS plastic.

Teflon has been well studied. The 6-layers of Teflon on teflex sheets will not suddenly start evaporating at 105 degrees (the usual dehydrator temp), or even 150 degrees (do not use a knife directly on the sheets to avoid slivers). The don't get volatile unless you burn them at well over 600 degrees (think red-hot pot left on the stove by accident long enough for all the water to boil out). If you don't agree then don't use silicon either - stick with parchment paper - but make sure you get parchment paper made from organic vegetable materials otherwise there could be chemicals in that, too, for all we know! DO NOT use wax paper in dehydrators - they wax can melt even at low temperatures. Most wax paper uses paraffin, a petrochemical folks! The toxicity of paraffin is not well known for the most part - but I would tend to be more suspicious of a petrochemical product that melts at low temps than a teflon product that is generally known to be safe at low temps. This is a good example of something taken out of context without thinking, as if wax paper is more natural or something. Sorry folks, most things just ain't that simplistic.

As you can see, you can choose to not trust anyone or anything and stick with glass and steel, but you would be spending 5 times more for your appliances. So here is the thing, after teaching thousands of people about raw food. Most people are on such a bad diet and living such a toxic lifestyle that any conscious eating at all would be an improvement, let alone raw food.

Our goal I believe should be to introduce as many people as possible to the raw food concept. This is about saving the world, folks. If you get hung up on nuances that are beyond the ability of the average person to care about, you will do nothing but turn them off. Or they won't be able to afford your advice and will do nothing. Life is full of dangers, but by eating a mostly raw food diet you will actually be much healthier than someone that eats cooked food but religiously avoids teflon. So why not make it easy for yourself? Get organic and raw first, fine tune later. If a plastic dehydrator is all you can afford to make staying raw a bit more enjoyable and successful, then by all means get one - you WILL be better off, especially for beginners, with an ABS dehydrator you can afford than without any dehydrator at all.

If you do eventually get so pure you want to eliminate even the remote possibility of toxins, go for it. You should probably move to Nepal however, since you won't be able to breath.

I try to pick my battles and fight the ones worth winning. Focus on common and significant risks,. not remote possibilities. If you are still smoking, you've got bigger things to think about than ABS plastic possibly having some undocumented risks.

For example, what do you drink? Bottled water? Did you know bottled water is one of the most dangerous ources of water, and in most cases is highly contaminated - and often is worse than tap water? I don't drink any tap water or any bottled water at all. I drink highly filtered water which I ionize to a high alkalinity (9.5-10.5, like the water in spinach). It is expensive to do this usually (though you can find plans to build your own water ionizer thru Googel for $150), but I feel it is a battle worth winning. The toxins and impurities in tap water and bottled water are extremely well documented. The theory that ABS plastic and teflon-type materials are volatile at the extremely low temps of a dehydrator is not documented at all. And though there may be a huge conspiracy to cover up the truth, I think not - it isn't a battle worth fighting. You are much more likely to have problems with GMO's getting into our organic food supply. And God save you if you are eating food that isn't organic - because you will have much bigger toxicity problems than a teflex sheet in a dehydrator.

Try to maintain some perspective friends - and have a great, raw and healthy 2009!
- Robert

[Coolexplosion]

Sir, two main problems I see and then some small logistical ones. We'll touch on the two first:

1. You are unfortunately a biased source. While you may be the best person in the world, and you very well might be, you cannot give an unbiased view. You sell the very items that you are defending. If tomorrow all ABS plastics were ruled unsafe and the public boycotted them, that wouldn't be too hot for your business (no pun intended). I would also wager a guess that if you weren't selling dehydrators made with these plastics you would have just ignored this topic and moved on. I'm not trying to pick a fight, just pointing out some observations.

2. For the first six paragraphs you try and maintain the case that teflon and teflex sheets are perfectly safe. Then, for the next five paragraphs you defer from that and decide to focus on that, while they may be toxic, they're not THAT toxic and there are many other things in the world we should be focusing on. Contradictory?


As per your teflon isn't toxic argument:

It is common knowledge, and Monsanto has admitted that 5% of their teflon product is deadly and carcinogenic. They know this and the people who care to keep up with their law troubles and natural health also know this. What they claim though is that it will never be ingested so, it's no worry. However, there are flaws to that logic.

Anyone that has ever had a teflon-coated skillet will tell you what happens over a period of time. The coating starts coming off and secretly leeches into the food. So, now those toxic chemicals, including those 5% that are knowingly cancer-causing are in the consumer's body. There is also the point that if a baby bird is next to a heated teflon-coated skillet then it will die because of the toxic fumes.

Now, I cannot weigh in on the plastics argument since I have no expertise on the subject. On the issue of teflon though, I would advise any and all persons that come into contact with it to set it aside and use something else. The parchment paper is a good suggestion and I also would avoid the wax paper for the reasons rawfoodguy posted.

At the end of the day, as always, do your own research. Don't take what I or anyone else says at face value. Thank you for reading this exorbitantly long post.

[jenbooks]

I'm among other things a science journalist and interviewed the scientists at length about plastics and seen all the studies.

I can assure you that they are not safe especially heated. Plastic dehydrators heating to 90-110 degrees and teflex sheets are simply not safe, rawfoodguy, and the fact that while selling them you maintain they are safe calls your credibility into question. Many of these plastics leach at ordinary room temperature! They derail laboratory experiments. They contain carcinogens and endocrine disrupters.

The raw food movement is so healthy and it should use steel and chrome dehydrators and glass to store things. I know that causes a problem for business as they are triple the price but to champion a healthy lifestyle and then turn a blind eye to the fact that plastic dehydrators and teflex sheets are likely unsafe to use, is very sad.

[RawFoodGuy]

I'm among other things a science journalist and interviewed the scientists at length about plastics and seen all the studies.

I can assure you that they are not safe especially heated. Plastic dehydrators heating to 90-110 degrees and teflex sheets are simply not safe, rawfoodguy, and the fact that while selling them you maintain they are safe calls your credibility into question. Many of these plastics leach at ordinary room temperature! They derail laboratory experiments. They contain carcinogens and endocrine disrupters.

The raw food movement is so healthy and it should use steel and chrome dehydrators and glass to store things. I know that causes a problem for business as they are triple the price but to champion a healthy lifestyle and then turn a blind eye to the fact that plastic dehydrators and teflex sheets are likely unsafe to use, is very sad.

Attacking my credibility doesn't strengthen a weak, undocumented, unscientific knee-jerk argument. I've supported the raw food community without earning a dime from it for about 15 years. Until recently my website, which has hundreds of pages of free articles, didn't sell a single product. I have personally taught thousands of people, maybe tens of thousands, in all that time and never earned a cent for doing it. So what have you done fo us lately?

The fact that someone sells something isn't an automatic conflict of interests. There are doctors who earn a living saving lives, a much better living than I do. I earn a small income from my website. What I do earn helps me to do more free teaching in my local raw food community - and it certainly doesn't make my opinion suspect any more than it makes the opinion of every doctor just because they get paid. Your chiropractor also has to feed his family. Your naturopath has to feed his or her family. Your acupuncturists, feng sui counselors, nutritionists, Reiki masters, channels and various assorted practitioners and gurus all need to feed their families and get paid for what they do. Sure, some of them may be slightly biased. I have no doubt that your chiropractor thinks chiropractic is absolutely the best approach for everyone all the time, and is the cure for all diseases. Or was that Hilda Clarke talking about parasites - but don't believe her she wrote a book. Maybe we should question the Advice of David Wolfe too, since he has something to gain promoting in his many top-selling books the very products he sells every day on multiple websites. If you have a thoughtful, well documented argument to make, please do it. Leave attacks on anyone's integrity out of it. Our community and this forum deserve something better.

Since you claim credentials as a journalist I would expect some documentation of your position. You mention interviews and studies you insist you have seen but you offer no relevant references, and some that are off-point or deceptive (one link goes to a page about why some scientists think plastics need more study - but that is not a study and makes no conclusion, the other refers to an article about the need to study the risks associated with phthalates, which is a class of plastics that has nothing to do with ABS). If you have a citation of a relevant study that says either ABS plastic or Teflon is unsafe at the low temps used in a dehydrator, please cite it and I will be the first to apologize.

I reiterate, the only studies that show any dangers from Teflex refer to heating at over 600 degrees. ABS plastic is so safe it is used in hospital equipment - and is used in the pipes throughout the homes you probably live in, including hot water pipes that are hotter than dehydrators. ABS plastics are also used in most of the juicers raw foodists are using, in their food processors and in their blenders. Even Vitamix switched from stainless steel carafes to plastic. To be an unthinking vegan idealist is just as bad as to be an unthinking omnivore in my onion. The idea is to become healthier in body, mind and spirit - not just a robot, even a healthier robot.

Though I also don't trust everything the government and corporations tell me, these materials have been in use for so long and so well studied, anyone with a keyboard can Google this info and decide for themselves if the benefits of being a raw foodist at a price you can afford outweigh the negligible possibility that everyone is going to spend 3 times the price to buy a stainless steel dehydrator.

I don't care if you buy anything from me. I have no need to convince anyone to buy anything from me. I do quite alright without having to do that. I do no promotion - my website got to be #1 on its own, because it has more real content than most other raw food websites, with hundreds of scientific citations to back up most of what is there. It speaks for itself. And there is one thing that I always tell people consistently - do your own homework. Don't trust me or anyone else. To become a raw foodist you have to educate yourself, do your own research, check out everything you see and hear on your own. That is still my position. If you follow that advice you will make up your own mind - and that is the #1 benefit of being raw and healthy - to be able to think for yourself. A knee-jerk reaction to anything made up of chemicals is just as non-thinking as a knee-jerk reaction from the other side (usually dismissing all alternative health as quackery without thinking). So do your homework, think for yourself. I bet most people who do that, other than those that have a lot of disposable income, will end up buying a plastic dehydrator and will be happier and healthier for it.

That's really all I have to say. I don't want to beat a dead dehydrator, as they say. Hopefully you folks will find this conversation useful, or at least interesting.

Let's all have a great, raw and healthy 2009!

- RFL

[RawFoodGuy]

Sir, two main problems I see and then some small logistical ones. We'll touch on the two first:

1. You are unfortunately a biased source. While you may be the best person in the world, and you very well might be, you cannot give an unbiased view. You sell the very items that you are defending. If tomorrow all ABS plastics were ruled unsafe and the public boycotted them, that wouldn't be too hot for your business (no pun intended). I would also wager a guess that if you weren't selling dehydrators made with these plastics you would have just ignored this topic and moved on. I'm not trying to pick a fight, just pointing out some observations.

2. For the first six paragraphs you try and maintain the case that teflon and teflex sheets are perfectly safe. Then, for the next five paragraphs you defer from that and decide to focus on that, while they may be toxic, they're not THAT toxic and there are many other things in the world we should be focusing on. Contradictory?


As per your teflon isn't toxic argument:

It is common knowledge, and Monsanto has admitted that 5% of their teflon product is deadly and carcinogenic. They know this and the people who care to keep up with their law troubles and natural health also know this. What they claim though is that it will never be ingested so, it's no worry. However, there are flaws to that logic.

Anyone that has ever had a teflon-coated skillet will tell you what happens over a period of time. The coating starts coming off and secretly leeches into the food. So, now those toxic chemicals, including those 5% that are knowingly cancer-causing are in the consumer's body. There is also the point that if a baby bird is next to a heated teflon-coated skillet then it will die because of the toxic fumes.

Now, I cannot weigh in on the plastics argument since I have no expertise on the subject. On the issue of teflon though, I would advise any and all persons that come into contact with it to set it aside and use something else. The parchment paper is a good suggestion and I also would avoid the wax paper for the reasons rawfoodguy posted.

At the end of the day, as always, do your own research. Don't take what I or anyone else says at face value. Thank you for reading this exorbitantly long post.

That you have to attack my integrity to strengthen your argument calls your own position into question. For your information, I have been involved with the raw food community since 1995, and until this year never took a dime. I taught at the Optimum Health Institute for 6 years for room and board only. My website, until a few months ago, never had any products - and already was #1 on Google for raw food searches. The fact that I can now, after 15 years, earn a small income with a handful of products allows me to do more free teaching and support for the raw food community. My background is documented. My articles are often footnoted. The research is clear.

I wasn't at all contradictory actually. I just said that the risks of using Teflon, as long as you don't cause it to mechanically degrade by cutting things on it with a knife, are much less than the benefits of making a raw food lifestyle more affordable and accessible.

What DuPont (not Monsanto) said about teflon is that Teflon outgases particulate at 446°F. At 680°F Teflon pans release at least six toxic gases, including two carcinogens. Dehydrators we all kow don't get that hot.

The big health and environmental problems with Teflon all come from cooking at high temperatures which releases the toxic perfluorochemicals (PFCs/PFOAs), not dehydrators. I do think that parchment paper is better in every way except convenience. Plastic dehydrators are sold with Teflex sheets, but you don't have to use them if you don't want to. In fact, the Environmental Protection Agency asked eight chemical makers, including DuPont, to voluntarily halt their use of PFOA. DuPont Co. said it will honor the request, reducing its use by 95% no later than 2010, and completely by 2015. So we'll all be using parchment paper or silicon sheets soon anyway. I am investing sources for silicon sheets now, but they are considerably more expensive. I'll probably be making them available with dehydrators some time in the near future. Nonetheless, I still maintain that used properly at low temps, there is no significant immediate personal risk using the free Teflex sheets you get from virtually every major dehydrator company. But do your own research and decide for yourself - there is plenty of info you can find with a simple Google search. Here is one really good source:

http://www.ewg.org/chemindex/term/496

-RFL

[prettysmartideas]

Probably only the case is made of ABS and not the actual trays, the exaclibur is probably the same.

Excalibur's case is made of polycarbonate, and the trays, which come into contact with food are made of polypropylene

From the Excalibur website:
"Excalibur's Tray Screen Material is made from FDA Approved Polypropylene #5 which is one of the safest plastics for direct food contact. We use polycarbonate as the Case material because it is virtually indestructible; however, we use polypropylene #5 for the parts that your food sets on because it is the safest plastic for food contact available. ** Please note that food does not come into contact with polycarbonate"

You can read the entire article at:
http://tinyurl.com/9o2kk5

Margaret
prettysmartrawfoodideas.wordpress.com

[Coolexplosion]

Mission accomplished then, R.I.P. Teflex Sheets.

[RawFoodGuy]

Excalibur's case is made of polycarbonate, and the trays, which come into contact with food are made of polypropylene

From the Excalibur website:
"Excalibur's Tray Screen Material is made from FDA Approved Polypropylene #5 which is one of the safest plastics for direct food contact. We use polycarbonate as the Case material because it is virtually indestructible; however, we use polypropylene #5 for the parts that your food sets on because it is the safest plastic for food contact available. ** Please note that food does not come into contact with polycarbonate"

You can read the entire article at:
http://tinyurl.com/9o2kk5

Margaret
prettysmartrawfoodideas.wordpress.com

I stand corrected. This also explains why Excaliburs are so much more expensive - polycarbonate is considerably more expesnive than ABS plastic, and even more heat resistant. However, ABS plastic is still more than adequate for the purposes of a dehydrator. I have always maintained that Excalibur makes a top-quality, American made product, but it just is much more cost effective for most people to go with the less expensive models. The additional strength and heat resistance of polycarbonate compared to ABS doesn't give a dehydrator any more benefits in my opnion, it just makes it more expensive. My goal is to get the equipment people need to enjoy a raw lifestyle into their hands in the easiest most affordable way, and I sincerely believe that Good4U/VegiKiln dehydrators accomplish that. In addition, Good4U dries much faster and is half as noisy (in my opinion) which also leads to a more practical, efficient and cost effective unit that is much more likely to get used. I am qualified to sell Excalibur and could do so tomorrow if I wanted to and would sell many many more - since they are #1 - but for my website I only want to sell what I believe is the best value, most practical and most cost effective products, so I chose Good4U/Vegikiln.

Thanks
Robert

[jenbooks]

Considering the absolutely atrocious record of major chemical companies like Dupont in covering up and minimizing toxicity issues until their hand is forced, all the while poisoning innocent users of their products, how can you quote Dupont as to safety?

You say that GoodforYou is so much more cost effective and yet what I hear between the lines is, I can't run a business selling the more expensive ones, I've got to stay competitive, so I'll rationalize about the data and say it's safe. Especially this line:

"Nonetheless, I still maintain that used properly at low temps, there is no significant immediate personal risk using the free Teflex sheets you get from virtually every major dehydrator company."

So someone should care SO MUCH about their health as to go raw, and yet you will sell a dehydrator that is the unhealthiest of the lot, including teflex sheets, not even letting your customers have a choice of also buying Excalibur or even steel and chrome which would be the healthiest. You do this because you rationalize that a little bit of poison daily from a cheap dehydrator is balanced out by going raw. Doesn't this seem like the ultimate in cognitive dissonance? A movement whose heart and soul is eating as healthy as possible, and you're out there selling the cheapest and unhealthiest dehydrators, and trusting what a major chemical company that has a meretricious record, is stating publicly about its chemicals. Come on, did we not see tobacco companies saying cigarettes were safe and didn't cause cancer? Nobody should cook with teflon, period. The risks are too high. There ARE no studies of teflex sheets in dehydrators but I suspect you would find leaching and absorption. Certainly you even find it with plastics and synthetics at room temperature.

It makes no sense to run a business selling products to improve health, and going with the cheapest product while rationalizing that it's probably safe, when you can see it's probably not.

[RawFoodGuy]

Considering the absolutely atrocious record of major chemical companies like Dupont in covering up and minimizing toxicity issues until their hand is forced, all the while poisoning innocent users of their products, how can you quote Dupont as to safety?

You say that GoodforYou is so much more cost effective and yet what I hear between the lines is, I can't run a business selling the more expensive ones, I've got to stay competitive, so I'll rationalize about the data and say it's safe. Especially this line:

"Nonetheless, I still maintain that used properly at low temps, there is no significant immediate personal risk using the free Teflex sheets you get from virtually every major dehydrator company."

So someone should care SO MUCH about their health as to go raw, and yet you will sell a dehydrator that is the unhealthiest of the lot, including teflex sheets, not even letting your customers have a choice of also buying Excalibur or even steel and chrome which would be the healthiest. You do this because you rationalize that a little bit of poison daily from a cheap dehydrator is balanced out by going raw. Doesn't this seem like the ultimate in cognitive dissonance? A movement whose heart and soul is eating as healthy as possible, and you're out there selling the cheapest and unhealthiest dehydrators, and trusting what a major chemical company that has a meretricious record, is stating publicly about its chemicals. Come on, did we not see tobacco companies saying cigarettes were safe and didn't cause cancer? Nobody should cook with teflon, period. The risks are too high. There ARE no studies of teflex sheets in dehydrators but I suspect you would find leaching and absorption. Certainly you even find it with plastics and synthetics at room temperature.

It makes no sense to run a business selling products to improve health, and going with the cheapest product while rationalizing that it's probably safe, when you can see it's probably not.

I only sell those items I know from experience are the best for my readers. I have the number one website for raw food on Google searches. I got there because I have more free content than almost all other raw food websites, content I sweat blood for over the 12-15 years I have been maintaining the site - with no income at all from it for 99% of that time, and now only a few hundred dollar a month on a good month. So if you choose to be so jaded that you cannot believe anyone can sell anything on a website and still be honest, I feel sorry for you.

Excalibur makes a sturdy product right in the US. It is well made, but their service is terrible and they are a horrible corporation that prefers to hurt the small guy rather than compete fairly. When I first started selling Good4U, Excalibur tried to put me out of business. Even Alissa chose to stop selling Excaliubur based on their incredibly negative attitude and energy. I would rather sell nothing than sell their products. In fact, I could sell them if I wanted to and probably sell a lot more dehydrators, since there is more demand for Excaliburs, but chose to Sell Good4U because I believe it is a better value for my readers. I even have an Excalibur dealer application in my files that I never sent in. It is never about the money.

Good4U makes a fine product that with ABS plastic is more than able ti handle the insignificant temps of a dehydrator without any problem. This isl well studied and easy to find withn a little Googling on your own. You don't have to take my word for it. All the other plastic people have complained about int his thread are NOT ABS . You cannot say that BPA or whatever is toxic to support your argument in a rthread about ABS - it's like apples and oranges...or walnuts and peanuts. Peanuts are toxic (aflatoxins). That doesn't have anything to do with walnuts.

I provide nonstick sheets for free. I f you don't like them don't use them. Their cost is NOT built into my price - I pay for them myself because people want them. If you don't believe that teflon doesn't become toxic until over 600 degrees, and refuse to Google yourself to find out, then use unbleached parchment paper. FYI - there never was any leaching from teflon ever - all that sort of thing occurred from temps over 600 degrees and from mechanically damaging teflon pans with sharp metal implements. Leaching is something that happens to plastic like BPA and that have plasticizers in them - and not to everything made from a plastic or chemical. Do some homework before of making such claims. Just because you believe something you heard doesn't make it a truth. I would never sell anything that had the kind of problems you are talking about. Period. Give me a break!

Finally, though Excalibur is a sturdy product - the fan is notoriously noisy and you cannot use it in an ordinary kitchen without going nuts. Mine is in the garage. The Good4U fan is half as loud and sits nicely in my kitchen. The Good4U design allows for improved airflow over the shelves, drying things much much faster and more evenly, so you don't have to rotate tray s (as you do on an Excalibur). Finally, Excaliibur trays are difficult to cleans since they don't fit in a standard sink - the Good4U trays clean up easily ion an regular sink.

So I sell Good4U because I believe they are better for the average person, and more affordable. Period. I believe it is the best overall value. It is idealistic to think people will spent $1000 on a stainless stell dehydrator. That is a good way to make sure people don't bother with raw food, and it raw food snobbery if you ask me. I am a perfectionist and idealist myself and as much as I would love to have my own stainless stelll dehydrator I cannot afford one. But I eat flaxseed crackers every day using a Good4U.

You are entitled to disagree with me but you should think twice before making personal attacks that are unfounded. My website speaks for itself. When you have spent many years teaching at a raw food health institute for minimal room and board, and doing a website with 100 pages of info for free, let me know.

- Robert

[RawSun]

I have probably been "green" since before some of you were born. Though I am not a scientist, I have several hundred scientific references on my website, www.rawfoodlife.com. I carefully research most of the scientific data I have on my website.

These posts on the dangers of some plastics are misleading in several important ways. Mostly they are taken out of context and overemphasize a sensationalistic, irrational approach, in my opinion.

First, acrylonitrile is an additive in ABS plastic, added to make the plastic even more temperature resistant. It is indeed a highly toxic chemical by itself, if you can find a jar of the stuff and get it on your skin or something. But not when it is combined into a highly stable compound, such as ABS plastic. You own stomach juice (hydrochloric acid) is highly dangerous if it is taken out of your stomach!

There are many examples of things that are toxic if you take them out of context, but are fine otherwise. ABS plastic, in fact,, is so stable it is used to make tatoo inks...so if you have any tatoos you better worry since if you get the flue your body can get quite hot!

Don't worry, I was just kidding. The plasticizers/phthalates in soft plastics are much more volatile and should always be avoided. These are NOT found in ABS plastic.

Teflon has been well studied. The 6-layers of Teflon on teflex sheets will not suddenly start evaporating at 105 degrees (the usual dehydrator temp), or even 150 degrees (do not use a knife directly on the sheets to avoid slivers). The don't get volatile unless you burn them at well over 600 degrees (think red-hot pot left on the stove by accident long enough for all the water to boil out). If you don't agree then don't use silicon either - stick with parchment paper - but make sure you get parchment paper made from organic vegetable materials otherwise there could be chemicals in that, too, for all we know! DO NOT use wax paper in dehydrators - they wax can melt even at low temperatures. Most wax paper uses paraffin, a petrochemical folks! The toxicity of paraffin is not well known for the most part - but I would tend to be more suspicious of a petrochemical product that melts at low temps than a teflon product that is generally known to be safe at low temps. This is a good example of something taken out of context without thinking, as if wax paper is more natural or something. Sorry folks, most things just ain't that simplistic.

As you can see, you can choose to not trust anyone or anything and stick with glass and steel, but you would be spending 5 times more for your appliances. So here is the thing, after teaching thousands of people about raw food. Most people are on such a bad diet and living such a toxic lifestyle that any conscious eating at all would be an improvement, let alone raw food.

Our goal I believe should be to introduce as many people as possible to the raw food concept. This is about saving the world, folks. If you get hung up on nuances that are beyond the ability of the average person to care about, you will do nothing but turn them off. Or they won't be able to afford your advice and will do nothing. Life is full of dangers, but by eating a mostly raw food diet you will actually be much healthier than someone that eats cooked food but religiously avoids teflon. So why not make it easy for yourself? Get organic and raw first, fine tune later. If a plastic dehydrator is all you can afford to make staying raw a bit more enjoyable and successful, then by all means get one - you WILL be better off, especially for beginners, with an ABS dehydrator you can afford than without any dehydrator at all.

If you do eventually get so pure you want to eliminate even the remote possibility of toxins, go for it. You should probably move to Nepal however, since you won't be able to breath.

I try to pick my battles and fight the ones worth winning. Focus on common and significant risks,. not remote possibilities. If you are still smoking, you've got bigger things to think about than ABS plastic possibly having some undocumented risks.

For example, what do you drink? Bottled water? Did you know bottled water is one of the most dangerous ources of water, and in most cases is highly contaminated - and often is worse than tap water? I don't drink any tap water or any bottled water at all. I drink highly filtered water which I ionize to a high alkalinity (9.5-10.5, like the water in spinach). It is expensive to do this usually (though you can find plans to build your own water ionizer thru Googel for $150), but I feel it is a battle worth winning. The toxins and impurities in tap water and bottled water are extremely well documented. The theory that ABS plastic and teflon-type materials are volatile at the extremely low temps of a dehydrator is not documented at all. And though there may be a huge conspiracy to cover up the truth, I think not - it isn't a battle worth fighting. You are much more likely to have problems with GMO's getting into our organic food supply. And God save you if you are eating food that isn't organic - because you will have much bigger toxicity problems than a teflex sheet in a dehydrator.

Try to maintain some perspective friends - and have a great, raw and healthy 2009!
- Robert


Well said Robert!!!

[jenbooks]

I'm a science writer and I've spent quite a bit of time looking at studies and talking to scientists. And I do know what I'm talking about. Therefore:

"Do some homework before of making such claims. Just because you believe something you heard doesn't make it a truth. I would never sell anything that had the kind of problems you are talking about. Period. Give me a break!"

I've done it. But because you've challenged me I am going to call the scientists I know and specifically get their opinions and post them here. Maybe that will satisfy you. I don't understand how you can take risks with plastic dehydrators and teflex sheets. Even silicone or parchment sheets have not been proven safe.

[Coolexplosion]

I'm a science writer and I've spent quite a bit of time looking at studies and talking to scientists. And I do know what I'm talking about. Therefore:

"Do some homework before of making such claims. Just because you believe something you heard doesn't make it a truth. I would never sell anything that had the kind of problems you are talking about. Period. Give me a break!"

I've done it. But because you've challenged me I am going to call the scientists I know and specifically get their opinions and post them here. Maybe that will satisfy you. I don't understand how you can take risks with plastic dehydrators and teflex sheets. Even silicone or parchment sheets have not been proven safe.

In response to the latter sentence: While parchment paper hasn't, it very well may be a necessary evil. If I had a choice between that and Teflex sheets, I'm going to run from Dupont.

[jenbooks]

Perhaps this new study just out will cause some concern to he who sells teflex and plastic saying no cause for concern:

PFOA slows breast development in mice exposed via mom.
Jan 29, 2009

White SS, K Kayoko, LT Jia, BJ Basden, AM Calafat, EP Hines, JP Stanko, CJ Wolf, BD Abbott, SF Fenton. 2008. Effects of perfluorooctanoic acid on mouse mammary gland development and differentiation resulting from cross-foster and restricted gestational exposures. Reproductive Toxicology doi:10.1016/j.reprotox.2008.11.054.

Synopsis by Abby D. Benninghoff, Ph.D.


PFCs prevent oil and water leaks from food packaging.



Breast gland development is delayed in mice that were exposed for only a short time through their mothers -- during late pregnancy or while nursing -- to a now widely used chemical found in nonstick cookware and food packaging. The results show that even a brief exposure during a critical time of development can lead to long-term effects on the developing mammary gland. It is important to know when chemicals do the most harm so steps can be taken to limit exposures and reduce associated health impacts.
----
And that's only a short exposure, not continued exposure at 98-110 degrees like food dehydrators, which *surely* leaches into food.

[RawFoodGuy]

Perhaps this new study just out will cause some concern to he who sells teflex and plastic saying no cause for concern:

PFOA slows breast development in mice exposed via mom.
Jan 29, 2009

White SS, K Kayoko, LT Jia, BJ Basden, AM Calafat, EP Hines, JP Stanko, CJ Wolf, BD Abbott, SF Fenton. 2008. Effects of perfluorooctanoic acid on mouse mammary gland development and differentiation resulting from cross-foster and restricted gestational exposures. Reproductive Toxicology doi:10.1016/j.reprotox.2008.11.054.

Synopsis by Abby D. Benninghoff, Ph.D.


PFCs prevent oil and water leaks from food packaging.



Breast gland development is delayed in mice that were exposed for only a short time through their mothers -- during late pregnancy or while nursing -- to a now widely used chemical found in nonstick cookware and food packaging. The results show that even a brief exposure during a critical time of development can lead to long-term effects on the developing mammary gland. It is important to know when chemicals do the most harm so steps can be taken to limit exposures and reduce associated health impacts.
----
And that's only a short exposure, not continued exposure at 98-110 degrees like food dehydrators, which *surely* leaches into food.

I should mention, for those of you that think I am a fool not to worry about the frightening prospect of exposure to PFOA leaching out of my dehydrator, that I have multiple chemical sensitivity - which is one of the reasons I became a raw foodist 15 years ago. I can assure you I am highly motivated to seek out the truth on issues like this - and when I make a mistake I find out right away within my own body.

You can read the whole thing here (rather than take it out of context):
http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/newscience/pfoa-impairs-breast-development-in-mice/

The salient point is that they had to feed these poor little mice concentrated pure PFOA (Teflon) - four times higher than the highest contaiminations ever measured. If you fed mice that much of many safe things they would become toxic. In fact, some micro nutrients that we absolutely must have for good health are TOXIC at higher levels.

"The measured concentrations of PFOA in the offspring were about 4 times higher than has been reported for individuals in highly exposed communities (2,000 nanograms/mililiter (ng/ml) compared to around 500 ng/ml). They are much higher than the general population (average about 5 ng/ml)."

And then you might also remember that they feed the pure chemical to the mice, which is not what happens in the real world when this chemical only becomes accessible under high temps or with mechanical abrasion (like scraping Teflon coated pans with a fork or knife).

I just started carrying the NEW Good4U dehydrators with 40-hour digital timers on my website...and you only get 2 nonstick sheets. I give 50% off additional sheets if you want them but if not, you don't have to pay for them. Blind paranoia is as dangerous as overly-trusting the system - or even me! So do your own research and make up your own mind.