A little lost

[cactus]

Ive noticed that many of the people on this board have pretty strong religious beliefs or at least they know where they are spiritually, I was brought up by strict religious parents, who I love and I know they loved us kids, and they did what they felt was right at the time, anyway to cut a long story short, I lost the faith I had in my beliefs,(there were many reasons and inconsistences for that) and I left the religion I was brought up in, the people who I left behind at church had this idea that if I didn't have religion,(theirs in particular) I would degenerate to "evil" or that I would lose those things that made me know what was right from wrong, they seem to think I would behave somehow differently, I have found that I still have integrity, I still want to be the best person I can and I still want to help others, none of that has changed, infact now I feel free to help other people and do whats right as a choice I personally make, not because I feel like I will be punished in some religious way, or I want to please god,

but heres where I get confused, I want something to believe in, I think its human nature to want to believe in something or someone who will make everything alright in the end, some one who will see justice done to those who are wronged, and that there is a point to life, Ive looked into so many religions, read book after book about philosophy(sorry about spelling) and religion, but I always see the same inconsistences, this last week a family member was traveling through London when the terrorist attacks happened, (we live about two hours from London) and it started me feeling very uneasy about the fact that I don't know what to believe anymore, or if I had lost that family member would I see them again in an after life,

I have noticed that some of you describe that your mind is clearer when you eat raw and you are able to be more spiritual, and I guess I am asking in what way that happens, or will it happen for me at some point,

MY husband, a very lovely and ethical man with great integrity, is an atheist, so that doesn't help a lot either, but it does show me you don't have to believe in god to be a good person.
I think Im a little lost in that area and not sure which way to go and since so many of you seem to know which way your path lies in that area Im wondering what your thoughts are on this, and I also wonder if you can have spiritual peace with out belonging to any particular religion.

you have all been so fantastic, I have never come across a more positive and uplifting bunch of people :) for that I am forever grateful.

[rawpriestess]

Dear Cactus,

There are many religious and spiritual beliefs in this world.

I have traveled my path to find that I am not any one of those beliefs.

I believe that there is no separate higher power.

That the higher power is like the ocean, all encompassing, everywhere, and each person/being/human/plant/animal is like a wave in that ocean, at no time are we separate from the ocean or from each other, although while we are expressing ourselves as that wave (ie living our life) we experience that expression (life) as a sparateness.

I believe that there is no right or wrong, that would be a judgement, and I am not going to judge anyone, that is not my job.

However, I do believe that since we are all connected, anything that happens to you, also happens to me, it's kind of like I am the right hand, and if I get a cut on my left foot, it may not directly affect me, immediately, but IF I don't send loving healing energy to that left foot, eventually, it WILL affect me, and I may not continue to thrive. (very simply analogy, but none the less may be affective)

So, although I may not be Hitler, or Dahmer or Mother Tereasa, I have an opportunity and an obligation to send out as much love and healing to these people living or dead as I am able to.

I also am responsible for EVERYTHING that happens in my world (not blame--that involves, shame and fear, and guilt and all those non-empowering emotions)

So, if there is a hurricane and it destroys some land or beings or hurts people, then although I may not directly be affected by it, I AM affected by the disturbance in the Universal energy of "all that there is" or the "ocean" or the "god head" or "higher power"

This is my personal belief, and may not reflect any belief of anyone else on this board or planet for that matter.

Also, I may be totally wrong.

However, I have always felt very close to some thing, I used to think it was God, but I was afraid of God as this big Guy, sitting on a cloud, watching every move I made just so he could punish me if I even thought a negeative thought. This just didn't resonate to me, so at 19 years old, when the people in our church (well 12 different churches actually) couldnt' answer my questions, I left, and started reading and seeking my own path.

I dabbled in Buddhism, confusism (sp?) Hinduism, Essene, Presbeterian (from my family) Baptist, Wicca, Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Pagan, Druid, Celt, etc. finally I decide to really research and I received a Ph.D. in the philosophy of religion.

NOW, that was an interesting time in my life.

The similarities to MOST religions is unbelievable, I knew the Bible stories, of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, David, Ruth etc, but I didnt' know that Almost every religion had the exact same stories, but with different names.

Now, how could that be?

So, I continued my research, and found alot of information about religions prior to the Christian religion, and just kept researching from there.

My mom (bless her soul) was a Christian, but she also didn't "feel" that the teachings were perfect, so she also delved into other thoughts, and beliefs and she told me this, and it has always helped me.

IF God is indeed a loving, father/mother/spirit, then (s)he wants us to be happy, fulfilled, and loving, and also to be comfortable and joyous. So, when we "feel" comfortable in our beliefs we will know in our hearts that it is right (for us), may not be right for anyone else, but IF it's right for us, then it's right for us.

I have always kept this in my heart, what "feels" comfortable to me is right for me.

Also, Christians and Muslims are the religions who believe in a HELL, or a Devil, so they are the ones who support "fear" energy.

Most other religions believe in a more nature based way of looking at things.

ALL Christian holidays, were pagan holidays prior to Christianity, the rosary beads, were a Celtic way of worship prior to Christianity.

Christmas was simply Yule in the pagan world, and Christmas used to be celebrated in March, until the church decided to change it to December. (actually the year end)

Also, Marriage wasn't even condoned by the Christian church until the 16th century, prior to that it was consided an abomination to be married, because it meant you were entering into a sexual union. God created us as virgins, and the Christian church believed we should stay virgins -- This I found really hard to believe, but it's all written down. I can give you the information if you are interested. (I personally have been fascinated by religious beliefs)

Most pre-Christian religions were female or Goddess based as women supposedly had the "power" to birth, there for were liken to the Goddess, able to give life.

I can go on and on here, but will sufice to say that I don't believe in a God or Goddess, I believe in an "all" not gender specific, not a condeming,punishing, cruel and unjust patriarch.

I believe that we are all responsible for everything that happens in our life.

Hope this helps.

[Revvell]

Personally, I have no beliefs. Why? If it is, it is. No reason to believe, to make something up to make myself feel "better". Animals don't believe. They just go about their lives doing what they are supposed to do.

I go about my life doing what I do ~ living it, celebrating it; being appreciative I have this chance. Appreciative to who(m) you might ask? No one! One doesn't need to be appreciative TO someone or something. It's an internal joy that I am alive, that I have searched and found what and who I need, on this earth to experience joy.

You know to me the reason so many feel they need to "believe" in something or someone (themselves or outside of themselves) is programming. We are programmed like robots to feel we "should" believe. Drop the programming and be free! Life is good ~ if you let it be.

Injoy ~

Revvell

[RawTruth]

Ive noticed that many of the people on this board have pretty strong religious beliefs or at least they know where they are spiritually, ... There are actually far far more members of this forum than those relatively few who post a lot. There are some who have belonged for a long time but rarely post, and there are a few who have been here only a few months but who post many times a day. So, it would be a mistake to jump to a conclusion about this based on what you may have read in a thread that is actually only a discussion between a handful of people.

As to your actual comment, I think it's important to differentiate between religious and spiritual.


I have noticed that some of you describe that your mind is clearer when you eat raw and you are able to be more spiritual, and I guess I am asking in what way that happens, or will it happen for me at some point. I suggest you just be 100% raw and live your life. Observe what happens, but try to stay out of your head about it. I doubt that anyone went into it with the mindset of seeing whether they'll become spiritual. Most changes are noticed along the way and after a while. Be sure and keep a journal where you notate not just what you eat but what's going on with you and, looking back, you'll undoubtedly see clearly how you've evolved physically, emotionally, and ... perhaps ... spiritually.

Just trust yourself and the Universe and you'll find your path -- whether you're looking or not and whether you're conscious of it or not.

[Ireland]

Hello Cactus. As you can see, you're going to get a wide variety of answers on this board. That's one of the wonderful things about the human race, we are all different. And, of course, with a question like you asked, there is bound to be some debate! Debate can be a good thing as long as it is kept in check and within a positive spirit.

RawPriestess, I must comment on one thing that you wrote;

Also, Marriage wasn't even condoned by the Christian church until the 16th century, prior to that it was consided an abomination to be married, because it meant you were entering into a sexual union. God created us as virgins, and the Christian church believed we should stay virgins -- This I found really hard to believe, but it's all written down. I can give you the information if you are interested. (I personally have been fascinated by religious beliefs)

I'm wondering where you got this piece of information. If, as you say, marriage and ultimately sexual union wasn't condoned by the Christian church until the 16th century, how on earth was the human race supposed to go on? I've been reading the Bible for many years and have yet to come across that information. The Bible speaks in many places of marriage and marriage feasts often comparing the union of a man and a woman to Christ and His bride. (His children, those who follow Him)

Cactus, might I suggest that since you are on a quest for something more, you will indeed find something more. Your choices are pretty much limitless but they are not all equal nor are they all going to give you peace. I also was brought up in a christian home and walked away for a number of years disillusioned by the human-ness of "those church people." It took me awhile to discover that I too was human and not above making horrible mistakes. There is a ton of hypocricy in the churches, it's a sad, true fact. But hypocricy doesn't stop there, it is ingrained throughout societies and religions and organizations worldwide.

My faith is not in the christian church, nor is it in ministers, pastors, and good people. Being good never secured anyone's future and ultimately, this place is but a stepping stone. No one ever said it would be easy and that answers would be black and white. When God said He was going to prepare a place for us, He is also preparing us for that place. That's where so many of us lose our way. We get hurt. We get lied to and messed around often by those who call themselves christians. So we turn away not realizing that (to coin an old phrase) we are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It isn't God's fault that some who profess to follow Him are not really followers any more than it's your fault if a friend does something nasty and you get the blame. Why should you get blamed? Why should God get blamed?

It's a sad thing that the simplicity of God somehow escapes us.

I suppose what I'm saying is this...When I am on my deathbed, there is One and ONLY One name that I will cry out...there is One and ONLY One salvation that I will trust in. My faith is in the One who created the universe with a whisper. Who breathes and a hurricane explodes. Who claps and the earth shakes. The One who puts the fragrance in the tiniest flower and reaches down to bring the smallest, starving child comfort, sometimes by bringing food through men or angels, or sometimes by taking the child home.

I don't have to know all the answers, none of us ever will. May the One who calls Himself the Alpha and Omega, the Great I Am light the way to your future and when you close your eyes for the final time in this life, I pray you will have found the peace and truth you are seeking. The Word says that it is born into the heart of every man to know God. May you someday come to know Him not as you were taught, not as others want you to know Him, but how HE wants you to know Him.

God's Peace.
Shannon

[RawTruth]

The followers of Jesus and the leaders of the movement he started were married. It wasn't until a number of centuries after his death (I'm remembering it as the 6th century, but I'd have to check to be absolutely sure) that "priests" and celibacy evolved and became codified. There was never an blanket edict or a prohibition against marriage and families.

[VeganVixen]

Dear Cactus,

There are many religious and spiritual beliefs in this world.

I have traveled my path to find that I am not any one of those beliefs.

I believe that there is no separate higher power.

That the higher power is like the ocean, all encompassing, everywhere, and each person/being/human/plant/animal is like a wave in that ocean, at no time are we separate from the ocean or from each other, although while we are expressing ourselves as that wave (ie living our life) we experience that expression (life) as a sparateness.

I believe that there is no right or wrong, that would be a judgement, and I am not going to judge anyone, that is not my job.

However, I do believe that since we are all connected, anything that happens to you, also happens to me, it's kind of like I am the right hand, and if I get a cut on my left foot, it may not directly affect me, immediately, but IF I don't send loving healing energy to that left foot, eventually, it WILL affect me, and I may not continue to thrive. (very simply analogy, but none the less may be affective)

So, although I may not be Hitler, or Dahmer or Mother Tereasa, I have an opportunity and an obligation to send out as much love and healing to these people living or dead as I am able to.

I also am responsible for EVERYTHING that happens in my world (not blame--that involves, shame and fear, and guilt and all those non-empowering emotions)

So, if there is a hurricane and it destroys some land or beings or hurts people, then although I may not directly be affected by it, I AM affected by the disturbance in the Universal energy of "all that there is" or the "ocean" or the "god head" or "higher power"

This is my personal belief, and may not reflect any belief of anyone else on this board or planet for that matter.

Also, I may be totally wrong.

However, I have always felt very close to some thing, I used to think it was God, but I was afraid of God as this big Guy, sitting on a cloud, watching every move I made just so he could punish me if I even thought a negeative thought. This just didn't resonate to me, so at 19 years old, when the people in our church (well 12 different churches actually) couldnt' answer my questions, I left, and started reading and seeking my own path.

I dabbled in Buddhism, confusism (sp?) Hinduism, Essene, Presbeterian (from my family) Baptist, Wicca, Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Pagan, Druid, Celt, etc. finally I decide to really research and I received a Ph.D. in the philosophy of religion.

NOW, that was an interesting time in my life.

The similarities to MOST religions is unbelievable, I knew the Bible stories, of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, David, Ruth etc, but I didnt' know that Almost every religion had the exact same stories, but with different names.

Now, how could that be?

So, I continued my research, and found alot of information about religions prior to the Christian religion, and just kept researching from there.

My mom (bless her soul) was a Christian, but she also didn't "feel" that the teachings were perfect, so she also delved into other thoughts, and beliefs and she told me this, and it has always helped me.

IF God is indeed a loving, father/mother/spirit, then (s)he wants us to be happy, fulfilled, and loving, and also to be comfortable and joyous. So, when we "feel" comfortable in our beliefs we will know in our hearts that it is right (for us), may not be right for anyone else, but IF it's right for us, then it's right for us.

I have always kept this in my heart, what "feels" comfortable to me is right for me.

Also, Christians and Muslims are the religions who believe in a HELL, or a Devil, so they are the ones who support "fear" energy.

Most other religions believe in a more nature based way of looking at things.

ALL Christian holidays, were pagan holidays prior to Christianity, the rosary beads, were a Celtic way of worship prior to Christianity.

Christmas was simply Yule in the pagan world, and Christmas used to be celebrated in March, until the church decided to change it to December. (actually the year end)

Also, Marriage wasn't even condoned by the Christian church until the 16th century, prior to that it was consided an abomination to be married, because it meant you were entering into a sexual union. God created us as virgins, and the Christian church believed we should stay virgins -- This I found really hard to believe, but it's all written down. I can give you the information if you are interested. (I personally have been fascinated by religious beliefs)

Most pre-Christian religions were female or Goddess based as women supposedly had the "power" to birth, there for were liken to the Goddess, able to give life.

I can go on and on here, but will sufice to say that I don't believe in a God or Goddess, I believe in an "all" not gender specific, not a condeming,punishing, cruel and unjust patriarch.

I believe that we are all responsible for everything that happens in our life.

Hope this helps.



wow! I could have written this!!!! exept for the experience part -but you stated my main beleifs!
'

I understand about the female ,pre christain pagan thing - Its SO strange when you can say 'I was born into a jewish or muslim or buddhist household' to a church member -yet when you say pagan to a christian -WATCH OUT! ,The reson they are so touchy in mine and many other ppl's opinion ) is because it stems out from the writers of the bible trying to keep a religion that celebrates women as far away as possible -but of course thats just an opinion ....

my parents have become much more conservative and have been PUSHING me to go to church ,a VERY small southern baptist one- and I finally went and said that I was spiritual and knew that there was a spiritual entity of SOME kind that I am trying to personally connect with ,they looked at me like I was a personal threat ,which showed how comfortable they were in theyre beliefs.....lol my parents havent asked since and dropped the group ,they were getting REALLY sexist....

I also agree about sex in religion ,they act like its unatural (it is NOT!) ,BUT I think its important to be able to not have emotional baggage as a main reason for it ,and to be able to stand on your own as a WHOLE before worrying about that - something Ive had to re-arrange ,re-evaluate in my life ,and it feels great to sort out internal felings/dialogue (mainly anger towards my dad) ! Marriage and sex going together ,to me ,is a crock - If the religious leaders tought more of a 'why' are you doing this ,rather than 'dont' until.....then people would take it to heart and not feel the shame associated ...btmo :o

anyways,ONCE AGAIN , perfectly said RP :D

[cactus]

I have really enjoyed reading what you guys wrote and its given me a lot to think about, Revell I think you are right about being programed to believe, my whole life I just believed what my parents taught me, and I didn't actually research it, after all, they taught it to me so I thought it must be right, and when I did start to look into it, I read as many books as I could on the writing of the bible, on the beliefs of people through history, about the romans and things going on around the time of the bible, (new testement) and most religious people I know, dont do that, they believe what they believe and thats as far as it goes, some become closed minded, and thats a shame, because basicly I think we all want a lot of same things in life,
religious bigetry has been the cause of some awfall things through history and even to this present day and thats also another thing that puts me off.
Raw truth...
Sorry I generalised and jumped to conclusions, I guess I forgot that there is a lot more people here than just those who post regularly, I will try remember that:)
the journal idea you mention is one that I have done my whole life, I keep one that I record my thoughts and what goes on in my life and that has helped me so much cos I can look back at the dark times and remember them and see how far Ive come, I also keep a small food diary because of all the food problems I have, it helps me remember just what makes me ill and how I felt when I was sick so I can try not to make the same mistakes again,

walkin on water.............
I like what you said about the simplicity of god, I wish I could see it that way, you said some lovely things , your right about religious debate, it seems to be something people feel very strongly about, one way or the other, and now Ive seen it from two different sides, when I was young my grandfather(an atheist) had a terrible fight with my father(very religious), I can remeber the terrible things they said to each other, each trying to show the other he was right, but neither seeing it from the others point of view, and now both are dead, and I feel sad for them that they couldnt over look their differences and just be there for each other,
when I used to believe I wouldnt hear anything said that didn't agree with my point of view, now I am seeing it from a different place, so if anything I have become more tolerant and open minded, and yes I am on a quest, I am one of those people who cant let something be, I will keep going till I find my answers, although I realize that sometimes there just is no answers,
and Veganvixen........... I think you may be right about the whole sex marriage thing and religion, and I like what you said about learning to stand alone,

thanks for all your thoughts, it has given me a great deal to think on, and by the way, my name is kerri. (and please excuse my terrible spelling)

[Sharon in Colorado]

I have noticed that some of you describe that your mind is clearer when you eat raw and you are able to be more spiritual, and I guess I am asking in what way that happens, or will it happen for me at some point

Probably when folks free themselves of the burdens of having to process their old diets, and are feeding their bodies cleaner simpler foods, it allows the mind to also be clearer to hold firmly their true beliefs.

As for a creator, I myself find it difficult not to believe that one omnipotent intelligent being created the complexity of a seed giving life to huge tree, not to mention organisms once smaller than the head of a pin growing into an 8 pound child just 9 months later. In my own mind I can't leave that kind of perfection to just chance.

[Revvell]

In my own mind I can't leave that kind of perfection to just chance.

Not to get into a debate here, yet, you say "perfection". How would you (trying to find the right words here so excuse me if it's inaccurate) "rationalize" when a child is born w/ Down's Syndrome, MS or some other "im-perfection".

What I was taught was that god was perfect and could not produce imperfection. One can say that the parents were themselves imperfect ~ sooo, the cycle continues.

This is one reason I feel there is no entity to call god. Either he is perfect or ~ not.

Revvell

[rawpriestess]

If there is anyone here, who SERIOUSLY wants an honest reply, I will indeed take the time to type it all out, I certainly had the same questions about, "no marriage, how are we supposed to reproduce? etc."

However, I am off to a meeting now, and won't be back until late, so IF you are truly interested, I will be happy to type this info out, it certainly caused me to think about it.

But, if you don't want to know, I understand, as I am happy that people have their own beliefs and are "comfortable" with them.

As I am.

Just let me know.

**************************************************

First, please know that I am NOT trying to dispel anyone's beliefs, nor am I trying to convert anyone to anything. I am simply answering a question directed at me.

So, I will take a few minutes to write this out.

The book "The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets" by Barabara G. Walker 1983 published by Harper & Row New York

Under "marriage"

I'll type out as much as I have time for.

states: "The word marriage came from Latin Maritare, union under the auspices of the Goddess Aphrodite-Mari. "

*** Mari was the same Merian or Merjan worshipped in Persia as Queen of the Peris (Fairies) Iran had it's mother goddess Mariana from very ancient times. She might be traced to the land of Akkad, created by a Goddess called the Lady Marri, Mother of the World. A king of Mari in 2500 B.c., united with the Goddess, took the royal name of Lamki-Mari*** I can give you the books this info came from if you like.

One with the info:
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"Because the Goccess's patronage was constantly invoked in every aspect of marrriae, Christian fathers were opposed to the institution. Origen declared, "Matrimony is impure and unholy, a means of sexual passion." St. Jerome said the primary purpose of a man of God was to "cut down with an ax of Virginity the wood of Marriage."1 St. Ambrose said marriage was a crime against God, because it changed the state of virginity that God gave every man and woman at birth. 2 marriage was prostitution of the members of Christ, and "marred people ought to blush at the state in which they were living." Tertullian said marriage was a moral crime, "more dreadful than any punishement or any death." It was spurcitiae, "obscenity, " or "filth."3

St. Augustine flatly stated that marriage is a sin. Tatian said marriage is corruption, "a polluted and foul way of life." In fluenced by him, Syrian churches ruled that no person could become Christian except celibate men, and no man who had ever been married could be baptized. Saturninus said God made only two kinds of people, good men and evil women. marriage perpetuated the deviltry of women, who dominated men through the magic of sex.4 Centuries later, St. Bernard still proclaimed that it was easier for a man to bring the dead bck to life than to live with a woman without endangering his soul.5

St. Paul damned marriage with faint praise, remarking that to marry was only better than to burn (1 Corinthians 7:9); but later followers of Pauline Christianity damned marriage altogether, according to the word of Jesus:"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26). jesus renounded his family, declaring that he had no relatives except the faithful (Mark 3:31-35). Jerome interpreted this as a mandate to destroy marriage and the family. He was disgusted by motherhood:"the tumefaction of the uterus, the care of yelling infants, all those fond feelings which death at last cuts short."6 he said every man who loves his wife passionately was guilty of adultery.7 Augustine also expressed disgust at feminine seual and maternal functions. He coined the saying theat birth is demonstrably accursed because every child emerges "between feces and urine."8

************ my interjection GEEEZZZZ************************
Okay, back on track
************************************************** ******
An example of anti-family virtue was made of one of the artificial saints built on a title of the pro-family Goddess, Perpetua, "the Eternal One." In her new Christian disguise as St. Perpetua, she was so devoted to single blessedness that she not only faced martyrdom with equanimity but also renounced her parents, her husband, and her suckling ifant in order to become Christian. Her pagan relatives tried to soften her heart by putting the infant to her breast, but she threw it aside and said to them, "Begone from me, enemies of God, for I know you not!"9

This was the early Christian notion of a "good" woman: one who placed faith before family. church customs reflected this view. There was no Christian sacrament of marrage until the 16th century. 10 Catholic scholars say teh wedding ceremony was "imposed on" a reluctant church, and "nothing is more remarkable than the tardiness with which liturgical forms for the marriage ceremony were evolved." It is perhaps not remarkable to find that these liturgical forms were not evolved by the church at all, but vborrowed from pagans' common law.11

the Anglican marriage service came from Anglo-Saxon deeds used to transfer a woman's land to the stewardship of her "house-man" (husband). The original wording had the bridegroom say:"With this ring I thee wed and this gold and silver I give thee and with my body I thee worship, and with all my worldly chattlels I thee honor." The bride responded:"I take thee to my wedded husband, to have and to hold for fairer for fouler, for better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health, to be bonny and buxom in bed and at board, till death us depart (sic)." A curious clerical note made in the margin at a later date, explained that "bonny and busom" really meant "meek and obedient."12

About wedding ceremonies in Greece and the Balkans, an authority on Greek religion wrote:"With the modern Greeks as with other Europeans, the religious service fo their church is intrusive, no real part of the ceremony of marriage, but an elaborate way of calling down a blessing on the ceremonial, or what is left of it, which constites the real wedding."13

The Christian priesthood was fighting ancient traditions n which it was remembered that male spiritual authority was dependent on marriage: either a hieros gamos between the ruler of a land and his Goddess, or the mandatory jusbandhip of priests who were not allowed to contact the deities unless they had wives. In Asia, the gods themselves had to be married. Even patriarchal figures like Vishnu and Brahma needed their Shaktis or wives who embodied their power, perform certain ceremonies without wives.15 oriental mystics taught that any man was spiritually incomplete until he experienced bhavanan, "husbandship," which linked him to the Goddess as Bhavani or "Existence." 16 The implication was that an unmarried man does not truly exist. Tantric hymns said all women are goddesses because they embody the spirit of the Goddess; thus "women are Life itself." 17

Early israelites also barred unmarried men from the priesthood. They thought a priest's spells and invocations would be powerless if he had no wife. 18 Jewish scriptures said, "The man who has neither wife nor children is disgraced in the world and is hated by them, like a leafless and fruitless tree."19 Similarly, the spiritual authority of Rome's high priest the Flamen Dialis depended on his marriage to the Flaminica, high priestess of Juno. If she died or left him, he immediately lost his holy office.20
************************************************** ******
Interjection, there are many more pages of non-Christian marriage information, so I will skip that as I think the above discribes what the early Christian church was battling, and go on
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The idea that a male priest should preside alone over a marriage ceremony was unthinkable -- which is one reason why Christians didn't think of it. For many centuries, marriage existed in a limbo without a deity to solemnize it, having no place in canon law, which is why marriage remained so long under the jurisdiction of common lay.

The Council of Trent decreed that a person who even hinted that the state of matrimony might be more blessed than celibacy would be declared anathema -- accursed and excommunicated.33 Teh earliest form of Chrsitian marriage was a simple blessing of the newly wedded pair, in facie ecclesiae -- outside the church's closed doors -- to keep the pollution of lust out of God's house. This blessing was technical violation of canon law, but it became popular and grdually won acceptance. In 1215 the fourth Lateran Council granted it legal status.34 Still, the church maintained that there were no marriages in heaven, according to Christ's statement in the scriptures (Mark 12:25; Luke 20:35). St. Thomas Aquinas assigned a "goodness value" of 30 to marriage, as compared with 60 for widowhood,and 100 for lifelong virginity.35
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I'll skip some redundant info here
********************************
Common-law marriages were often informal. Mere cohabitation could constitute a valid marriage. 37 Temporary trial marriages were legal up to the early 17th century. peasant "betrothals" were often trial marriages, incorporating such customs as "tarrying, " night-visiting, and courting-on-the-bed. Pregnancy might make the union permanent, but not necessarily. Bstardy was a commonplace in allsocial classes or medieval society.38

The church displayed remarkable reluctance to deal with the matter of marriage at all. During the Middle Ages there was no ecclesiastical definition of a valid marriage nor of any contract to validate one. Churchmen seemed to have no ideas at all nt he subject.39

They ignored marriage, leaving it largely in the realm of the common law.

Under Roman and barbarian laws, marriages "could be freely initiated and could be terminated without formality by either party and at any time." 40 This system persisted among common folk until 1563. Finally the church declared the priestly blessing indispensable to a legal marriage, refusing to recognize any more marriages made by the common law. Still, the church's rule remained invalid in many areas for several centureis more 41.

In 1753 lord Harwicke's Act made clerical blessing a requirement for legal marriage in England, but the Act didn't apply to Scotland. Therefore Scotland became a mecca for elopements, because legal marriages could be made there by the old pagan custom of "handfasting" -- simply joining the couple's hands in the presence of witnesses, without benefit of clergy.42 All the way up to 1939, English lovers could travel across the Scottish border to the "marriage town" of Gretna Green for an instant wedding.

When Christian authorities revised pagan marriage laws, they were primarily concerned with placing a wife's property in her husbands' control and keeping it there. Women owned the land under the pagan system, and their husbands could acquire an interest in it only through matrimony. This system was reversed is husbands' favor. Common-law and Morganatic marriages were provisionally accepted by Christain churches only after many restrictions had been imposed on the wife's rights of ownership and inheritance. Christian marital morality amounted to taking the means of independence from women and turning it over to men.

Celibacy was strictly enfoced among the clergy when new laws permitted men to bequeathe their property (and their wives' property) directly to their children. When priests were forbidden to make valid marriages, they couldn't have heirs. Thus all property they owned or gained would revert to the church when they died. 43 Clerical marriages on the other hand, meant a loss of ecclesiastical income.

Priests abandoned the early church's rule fo celibacy and began to take wives during the 5th and 6th centuries. This continued to the 11th century, when papal decretals commanded married clergymen to turn their wives out of their homes and sell their children as slaves. 44 These new laws brought much more wealth to the church. Though some ex-wives stayed on as the concubines of their former husbands, they were disinherited in the church's favor.

churchmen revered St. Hilary, who was married and the father of a daughter. When his daughter wished to marry, however, Hilary forbade her. Fearing she might weaken and lose her virginity, he asked God to killher God complied -- with a little help from Hilary himself. After burying the daughter, "by his prayer" Hilary sent his wife to heaven also. The legend claims the wife voluntarily begged Hilary to "obtain for her the same grace which he had obtained for her daughter." 45

Besides popularizing the peculiar morality of a saint who killed his family, the church fosterd "chastisement" of wives by husbnads, citing St. Paul's teaching that "the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man" (1 Corinthians11:#). In practice, under the pretext of discipline a man could torture his wife with impunity, and no glegal or religious agency would defend her. A mokd protest in the 13th - century laws and Customs of Beauvais noted that an excessive number of women were dying of marital chastisement, so husbands were advised to beat their wives "only within reason."46
************************************************** ***
I could go on, but this next part is about wife beating, and how up until 1962 a judge fianlly ruled that the peace of the home was already destroyed by a wife-beating husband, therefor the doctrine of immunity was elgally unsound. 61
etc.
Hope this answers your questions. I found this fascinating, and of course, disturbing too.

************************************************** ********

[Ireland]

Check this site out if you will Revvell, it may or may not answer some questions.

I am blessed to be working at present with mentally challenged adults - mostly those with Down's Syndrome. I have no doubt that God has put them here for His own purpose and I think perhaps one of those purpose's is for us to learn from them. They are simple, beautiful people. They are not vindictive, they are not mean, they are rarely dishonest and if so, in a very child-like way. They are loving, caring, affectionate individuals that can show us so much about life.

Imperfect? I think they are a lot closer to perfect than I am!

Yes, there are many that suffer and I don't claim for a moment to know the answers why. Sometimes I have to just take things at face value. I have no doubt that our questions will be answered further along...

Blessings.

http://bmei.org/jbem/volume2/num1/mcconnell_managing_attitudes_towards_defective_new borns.php

[misslinda]

Hi Cactus!

That's a tough one and i've been there myself having been brought up in a religious home.

Can I ask what is it about the importance of validating that there is such a higher power since you know you have a yearning? Once you discover this "higher power," what do you need from it?

I myself, challenged my beliefs and simply had to stop calling it "God" and say "Whoever or whatever you are......show me the signs,answers etc."

Since going raw, I have seen that so called bright white light. Praying with my eyes closed, seeing a bright white light figure come towards me ( I could see right thru my eyes that were closed)and knowing what it was.

I suppose it makes it a little easier b/c I have seen angles and witnessed miracles in front of me.......that is my experience with my religious/spiritual renesaince (sp). I don't focus so much on what to call this higher power but to make it indentifiable, I call my higher power "God."


Best wishes,
ml

[Sharon in Colorado]

In perfection I mean how human bodies have been created & designed to breathe, survive, fight off disease, etc. How complex and beautiful we are, as well as how plants and animals are created, and intuitively survive. I believe the Creator is perfect but certainly not this world nor we as folk.

[VeganVixen]

I think imperfection can be beautiful....



great info r.p.!

[misslinda]

.



Imperfect? I think they are a lot closer to perfect than I am!





Beautiflly said and heartfelt :)

[tracyinfo]

Wow, off to a meeting and you type that long dissertation! What a woman! Thanks for doing that. I loved what you typed.

Blessings.

[Autumn]

RP,
Your poor fingers. Mine would be swollen to balloons if I typed that much. Thank you for doing it though. I found it very interesting reading.

However, all the different responses here is what makes my head spin about religion. I posted a similar post, about my own spiritual confusion, a few months ago. I have not reached any answers yet, only more questions that I can't even put into question form. I, too, want *something* to believe in. My religious upbringing was cast aside, largely, 20 years ago. Although I do still believe in some of the basic tenements, it doesn't interest me, excite me nor inspire me. I guess too I feel the pressure of living in the south now, where if you admit you don't have a "church family", they look at you like you are nuts.

I feel God or whoever most when I am standing in a forest, near a lake, looking up in the sky, or seeing the goodness in someone else. I even feel it when I'm playing with Mandy. What that means I have no idea.

But again, I am enjoying reading all the different perspectives in this thread.

[rawpriestess]

I am back, thanks for accepting my typos (I know there must be tons) I just got back from my meeting with my dearest friends, MINISTERS. I showed them this post, and they were so fascinated.

I must say that when I first read this information, I was totally flabergasted, and amazed.

I am doing research for another book, so that is where I came across this, although I had this book in my possesion for almost 20 years, I havent' read all of it yet. Now, I suppose I will have to.

[VeganVixen]

I guess too I feel the pressure of living in the south now, where if you admit you don't have a "church family", they look at you like you are nuts..
HA -TOOO TRUE!!!!!!!



I feel God or whoever most when I am standing in a forest, near a lake, looking up in the sky, or seeing the goodness in someone else. I even feel it when I'm playing with Mandy.


I know what you mean ,I feel this way when I am on or with a horse ,especially mine :)

[cactus]

wow, so much to think about, last night I went to sleep thinking about all the different thinks everyone said, and I realized that although Im not sure what I believe in, I do think that sometimes there is paths we are meant to follow and sometimes stuff just happens, I think that I was meant to discover this way of life, as odd as it may seem it has had a big effect on me already in more ways than I can count,

Misslinda, you asked a very good question, about what is important to me about validating a higher power and what I need from it,
Ive given that much thought and what I want is to know that everything will be alright one way or the other, that there is a reason for the horrible things that go on in this world, I was brought up believing that god has a plan for us all, but when I see the sufferng and the pain around the world and in my own family Im not sure that makes any sense to me, I was brought up believing in prayer, yet why would a loving god let people suffer, the whole prayer thing just dosn't work for me, because my father used to say our prayers are answered but not always in the way we want, so what is the point of it, My father died after suffering 8 long years of cancer, we all prayed and cryed and prayed somemore but he still died at a young age and leaving me thinking what is the point.
so I guess the short answer is I want to know its not all for nothing, that there will be justice for those who suffer at the hands of others and that I will see those people who have died again, I miss my father so much.

as for what I want from this higher power, I think most of all I want peace of mind and I want to know with out doubt that there is something, I had that once, or at least I thought I did.

Raw priestess, that must have taken you forever to type out, your pretty brilliant, there is such a lot to think about there and digest,

Autumn ... you mentioned about how you feel god most when your with nature, I feel something there also, I know its been mentioned that you can be spiritual with out being religious, and maybe thats what happens to me, I dont know, but I can say I feel so close to nature and there I feel peace, and I also feel intensely greatfull for the beauty that is around us, each evening when I check on my sleeping little boy before I turn in for the night I kiss his forhead and whispher I love you and feel the most wonderfull gratitude, I just wish I knew who to address it to.

thankyou all for taking the time to respond, you have no idea how much this little conversation has helped and given me so much to think about, oh by the way Ive been trying to work out how you all do that thing where you quote previous text?

thanks again.

[Revvell]

oh by the way Ive been trying to work out how you all do that thing where you quote previous text?

thanks again.

Bottom right hand corner of each person's post ~ lil quote thingy?

Revvell

[cactus]

Bottom right hand corner of each person's post ~ lil quote thingy?

Revvell

ok like this? I probably should be more observant sorry:)

[sweetgoddess]

Cactus, good morning.
I read your post and wanted to respond to you.

It can be very confusing when you outgrow and leave behind a spiritual path or religion, and also when you encounter others who have such faith that it sparks a longing in you.
And again it can be confusing when you ask other people, because they can only explain to you what they believe. Based on their accumlative life experiences, which are very different from yours.

There are religious and spiritual paths galore on this planet. And though that can be confusing , it is a very good thing. Because every human, or Soul, is at a very different place in their growth. There is a path for everyone, no matter where they are at. It is ok to outgrow them, and it is ok to blaze your own path.
The purpose of a religion or spiritual path is to help us become aware of ourselves as Divine Creation ( or if you prefer energy) I call it Soul. And to give us examples and rolemodels of how high we can go if we open to Spirit(energy, lifeforce, God etc), of how we can stay in that perspective for longer periods, how we can integrate it into the human experience we are currently having, how we can be more love. What a religion or path should do for anyone is make them a more loving being.
They can be very helpful. It is like studying at home or in a group. Sometimes it is easier in a group, sometimes it isnt.

You asked if you can have spiritual peace without belonging to a group-yes, most definitely yes. You can say God, SPirit, Goddess, Universe, LifeForce, Buddah, Allah, Jehovah, Nothing, Dudley, Cindy~it does not matter.
IT exists exclusive of ANY group. IT exists as an energy that brings into existence all things, and IT does not care what you call it.

One thing you can firmly believe in is yourself. And that is a beautiful place to begin. You are alive, you are here experiencing all these wondrous things, you are a miracle, you are energy, you are everything. Because you exist.
Because you are.
Trust in that, trust in what lies within you and let your own personal experiences guide you. It all comes down to your own experiences.
Nobody here can tell you what path is right for you. And they dont need to. Because the path you ARE on is the right one for you.
Getting to a place where you wonder and question is a gift in itself, not at all a bad place to be.

You are a part of the "someone" who will make everything all right in the end. It is not seperate from you for you are animated with its energy. And all energy stems from the same Source.

There is an incredible book ( actually a series of them) called Conversations With God, Book 1 . This book has nothing to do with religion or a path. If you feel the nudge, find this book. It will touch something within you. Thats the nudge I just got.

And though You may not recognize it as one right now, blessings and love to you on your path.
Warmly~

[misslinda]

I was just having a night conversation with my neighbor who he and I were just discussing alot of the issues that came up in here which was great!

We've come to the realization that it all came down to simply "believing" b/c no matter how much someone or something tries to hinder you, b/c I believe it, it doesn't matter. He gave me a great example: A mother with a child "Do you love your child?" Mother replies, "Yes, I do." Neighbor, "How do you love your child.....how do you prove you love your child?" After hearing this, I realized, noone can prove I don't love my child (although I don't have one) unless [I] choose not to [believe] I love my child.

Cactus, your thoughts are so close to home for me........my nephew died of brain cancer..........and actually, I have to go right now but i wil finish my post later. Sorry some thing came up :)

[sweetgoddess]

cactus, i just wanted to add one more thing.
My email address is sweetgoddess333@yahoo.com if you ever need to talk to someone.
Bless!

[cactus]

SweetGoddess





Because you are.
Nobody here can tell you what path is right for you. And they dont need to. Because the path you ARE on is the right one for you.
Getting to a place where you wonder and question is a gift in itself, not at all a bad place to be.


Warmly~

that makes sense and what you wrote is lovely, as is what most people here have written, I think that the trouble is when you are brought up in a certain religion, especaily one that constantly teaches you it is the truth(and IM being carefull here because I don't want to step on anyones toes, or come across as critizing anyones religion or beliefs as I have great respect for most religion,) then when you leave, the people who you leave behind still believe and they (my family encluded) want you to come back so much they feel you have abandoned something very important, infact in my case they tell me constantly I will "be lost" in an religious sense, so even though I am very sure I made the right decision to question and to finally leave, my family will never see it that way,

its like a story I read in a philosphy book about two people who come apon a garden, its totaly over grown, but in the corner is a little rose, very weedy and not at all healthy, but never the less still growing, one says to the other, look at that rose, for that rose to grow someone must be tending this garden, the other says, if someone was tending this garden then they would have cleared around the rose, and fed the rose, they both go away and agree to meet up again in the wild garden, next time, the one who believes the garden to be untended loooks around and says , I see that the garden is still unattended, the weeds are bigger the briers have grown all over the place almost obscuring the path, the one who believes the garden is tended, says yes but look at the rose, it has grown stronger and become more beautifull,some one must be tending it or it would be dead and so they go on, visting the garden from time to time, each seeing what they want to see and finding evidence to show that what they believe is right, religious belief to me is like that story, which is a shame because in reality they could both be right, if they would just discuss it and listen to the other.

sorry got carried away, I talk way to much,
that book you mention, do you know who publishes it?

thanks :)

[misslinda]

I like that story about the roses--my neighbor and I finished our converation about "Which of you is right."

Anyway, I believe the religious dogma has taken the basic elements of "religion" or spiritual beliefs and complicated it to the point where one can lieterally feel like they are sitting in a constant swivel chair.

Cactus, when you talked about suffering and death in your family (I'm sorry about your father), I immediately thought of my nephew who was diagnosed with brain cancer when he was 3 1/2. Our family prayed and our church prayed........I wanted so much and was EXPECTING miralces----isn't that what God or a God can do???? I became frustrated and angry..........turned away from the God I knew. The more I suffered the more I found myself calling up that higher power.................I had come to a point that i doubted and challenged.


I don't want to get to the point of sound preachy casue that is not my style or intension. I stick to VERY basic part of my belief and practice the rituals I feel that bring me closer to it. It seems as thought you--deep down inside know that there is something there and I owuld encourage you to talk directly with that higher power (whatever you call it) and ask these same quesitons and don't feel guilty for asking directly for signs or answers. Sometimes the path is the answer rather than the answer itself. :)

Personally, thru suffering, i have callep upon my higher power in the intense parts of my life.............i would cuss and cry to it---then, I literally would feel a hand over my shoulder (with a minty cool breeze) and at those moments, I got my answer.

I will pray that your path will be filled great wonders and signs to have answers! :) ;)


luv,
ml

[Sweet lips]

S.G. and M.L. you have written some wonderful words and place some great ideas here, and the manner of delivery was sooo soothing. Catcus, I am not one to tell anyone what to do or how to beleive, but I do suggest that you choose what is right just for you at this time in your life. It is not about anyone of us being right - as I choose to be a Christian, I am very well informed about the contridictions in organized religion, but this is my choice because it just is - it feeds my soul to the core of my being, I have seen miracles that I attribute to the God that I serve in His infinite wisdom, but again, it is what works for me. :)

I always say that when I move as a child, I receive the very best blessings that are afforded to me, when I listen as a child, I am spoken too, and when I love as a child, I am wholly loved without any of the dangers of being hurt beyond measure. It is about how much faith I have in my life to go forward.

I love the story of the rose, and such as that - that is really how life is. R.T. really expressed well when she said -"I suggest you just be 100% raw and live your life. Observe what happens, but try to stay out of your head about it. I doubt that anyone went into it with the mindset of seeing whether they'll become spiritual. Most changes are noticed along the way and after a while. Be sure and keep a journal where you notate not just what you eat but what's going on with you and, looking back, you'll undoubtedly see clearly how you've evolved physically, emotionally, and ... perhaps ... spiritually.

As for the point of the children being born with down syndrom, or even some of the things in life that we call challenges, I have always believed that we chose to say something is wrong with them, but yet, where are we getting our information - for me, and even as a child, my mother said she was astonished when I would think of children with our thought process who are suppose to be challenges, that they were God's blessing for me to see, and would want to spend time with them. She said she always would wonder where it came from.

Your life is yours to hold, step out unto nothingness and see what blessings and whom you will begin to trust - Have a blessings day - you are breathing starts the process.
Just trust yourself and the Universe and you'll find your path -- whether you're looking or not and whether you're conscious of it or not."

[sweetgoddess]

That is a lovely story Cactus and you hit the nail on the head in your post.

Each individual believes what they choose to believe based on their accumlative experiences. It is a long lesson, learning to allow others their beliefs without judgement of any kind. But you never have to accept that judgement, or even see it that way.
They believe firmly and so think you should too because that is what rings true to them.

You have to find what rings true to YOU and you alone.

The book Conversations with God is written by Neale Donald Walsch published by Hampton Roads Publishing Company Inc.

Many Blessings~

[sweetgoddess]

Gracious SweetLips, you just said the most profound thing.

...feeds my soul to the core of my being

There are many different "things" that can do that, or inspire oneself to do that. Explore until you find what does that for you.
Life IS the journey and exploration. :)
And never fear....its impossible for God, The Universe, The Creator, Energy etc etc to lose you~ or vice versa! ;)

[misslinda]

(((((applauds)))))) :)


I feel at peace. ;)

[cactus]

misslinda and sweet goddess... I spend ages typing a reply, somehow when I went to post it I lost it, which is very anouying since I put my heart into it, I just wanted to let you know I read what you said and as with what everyone has said it gave me much to think on,when I have time I will try redo my post.

thanks

[sweetgoddess]

Ahh I do that often cactus and it sure can be disappointing.
Its ok! As long as you are ok.
You are a seeker~thats a great thing to be.
Have a wonderful weekend. :)