Definition of...

[Ilse W.]

I have a question, that I hope I can have answered here without getting my head ripped off:

What is a person called, who eats no animal foods, but who doesn't object to wearing leather shoes and wool sweaters? I assumed (forgive me, I'm a foreigner), that a vegan is somebody who does not eat animal flesh, eggs, or dairy products. Apparently though, I can only call myself "vegan", if I use absolutely NO animal products of any type. It even says so in the dictionary. Therefore, apparently eating the way I do is NOT vegan. However, recently I read in a magazine where somebody said that "vegetarians" eat dairy and eggs. I'm totally confused. Is vegan a diet or an ideology? What can we call ourselves without getting into trouble with the overzealous?

Hope I didn't step on any toes. :o

[kaleidoscopeeyes]

Hi there,

Don't ever worry about "getting your head ripped off" here. It's a very friendly environment and we're open to any questions.

The most common type of vegetarian is an Ovo-Lacto vegetarian...someone who abstains from eating meat and fish but does eat animal byproducts.

A vegan is someone who does not eat any meat, fish, or animal byproducts. Some vegans continue to wear leather or wool...it's a choice. Personally, I do not use leather or silk or anything like that. But doing so doesn't mean you aren't a vegan, because unless someone is extremely militant, they will still accept someone as vegan even if that person continues to use such things.

Whether vegan is a diet or ideology depends on the person and their reasons for going vegan. For me, it's a lifestyle. I am vegan for animal rights AND health reasons.

I hope I answered your questions, feel free to ask for clairification if you don't understand :)

[coco]

this need for a label is baffling to me! why label, define, confine yourself if you don't have to? then you are stuck with a set of "rules" that you must follow to meet the requirements of the label whether you feel like it or not.

i don't know, if people ask i can say that i eat a vegan diet. i do have second hand leather things and i keep housepets and i craft with some wool materials so i can't wear the label "vegan". i don't care though, i am doing what i think is best for me and that's enough. if people need to call what i do something i suggest they use the word "healthy". that works well enough for me.

[Ilse W.]

Coco, I'm asking, because I was told by several people that I cannot call myself a vegan, because...etc., but people here and elsewhere talk about being on a vegan diet. From the context, however, I realize that they do not really subscribe to the "no animal foods/items of any type" doctrine. It's just getting confusing and I'm not sure what I should call my way of eating when people ask me. When I say I'm vegetarian they say, oh, so you eat dairy and eggs. But then I'm told I'm not vegan either, because...etc. I just feel like we need a word here that hasn't been invented yet.

[debilana]

I am RAWGEN!:D

[Rawkinlocs]

I'm with coco on this one. There is no need to "call" yourself anything. Just say, "I eat raw, plant-based foods" or "I eat a plant-based diet" or "I eat a raw vegan diet". If they ask, "So, you're a vegan/vegetarian?" then just reply by saying, "I EAT a plant-based diet but I realize that the name "vegan" means a lot more than just not eating meat, so I prefer to not label myself as a vegan or label myself as anything, really".

I have never called myself a vegan because I am not a vegan...not a TRUE vegan by definition. If you just have to have a name to call yourself then just say you are a raw foodist, period. But then you're going to get the question, "So you eat raw meat?"

To me, it's just not worth it to have to get all off into the labels and names. I'm just...ME!

[Inca_faerie]

The way I see it is that a vegan is someone who does not consume any animal products but might still wear leather, wool or silk. I personally think leather is tacky and just...strange.(why the heck would I want to wear the skin of one of my fellow mammals?) and wool is itchy! I'm pretty much a cotton gal all the way, although I do have a fondness for silk scarves and I ain't givin' em up!;) I call myself a vegan just so that people know I don't eat animal products, it makes things a bit easier.

[Revvell]

Coco, I'm asking, because I was told by several people that I cannot call myself a vegan...

You can call yourself anything you want... doesn't necessarily make it so ~ or not. People like putting others on the defensive by labeling them. "You MUST do this to call yourself THAT!" or "You CAN'T do this and call yourself THAT!" Well, pooh on that... for me, I go with what Rawkinlocs says ~ I eat a plant-based diet. Let them make up a name for it if they want.

When it comes down to it, what I eat is no one's business AND, I call myself Revvell.

[Raine]

Don't you find labels to be limiting? It's like disclosing one's age - as soon as someone finds out how chronologically old you are, they pigeon hole you into a mode in which you are supposed to act.

I'm predominately raw when it comes to eating. I wear leather but then, I do ride a motorcycle and hemp isn't going to do a dang thing to protect me from road rash if I go down.

[Aleesha Sattva]

It's all about choice... and only you can choose for your Self. Make up a label for yourself if you really want one... I call myself Raw. I just say to people... I'm Raw. Simple and to the point. ;)

[Ilse W.]

Thank you, everybody! I'm going to put this labeling issue out of my mind. You are right, I really don't like to label myself. It's really not people I get into contact with anyway, I don't discuss my personal choices with people I meet casually. It's more the people on boards such as this (but certainly not this one). Call me Raw, Healthy, Content, Happy...that's all the labels I need.

[Emma-Liza]

Some people like labels. They feel that if they use a categorical word, they don't have to explain in detail what they mean. My stepmother eats vegan, but she does nothing else that qualifies. Yet she always tells the waiter at every restaurant we go to, "I'm a vegan. Can your chef make me a vegetable plate?"

That's okay, if that's what you want. But in my experience, no label really gets you out of "explaining yourself" anyway! My stepmother doesn't mind, but I hate to do that!

I used to say, "I eat vegan; but, I don't follow the total vegan philosophy." Then I'd have to explain that I still wear leather shoes and eat local honey, but also support anti-vivisection, animal rescue groups, and boycott products tested on animals, blah-di-BLAH.

Nowadays, I say, "I eat a lot of salads and fresh fruit." I've never had anyone argue that one with me. No implied attitude about meat, leather, pets, etc. either!

[rawstrength]

I call myself a vegan because that label is the closest fit to what I am. I don't eat dairy, meat nor eggs, and I don't wear leather or wool. However, I still wear silk and pearls and I eat honey. I guess my circle of compassion hasn't expanded to include insects and oysters yet :o . But I embrace most of the vegan philosophy and practice most elements of the vegan lifestyle, so I call myself a vegan.
But I can see why some might find labels limiting.

[coco]

i mostly eat a vegan diet but i am a human being and that's as labelled as i'm willing to be. it can't matter to me what other people need to label things as, that's their hang up and it's too much work and trouble for me to share it with them. i'm way too busy/relaxed/lazy/selfish/whatever to care that much.

i never liked it when i used to wait tables and people would say "oh, so you're a waitress." man, did that ever rub me the wrong way. um, i may be many things, a woman, a daughter, a mother, a sister, and activist, a b!tch (sometimes, heh), but i am not nor will i ever be A Waitress! how can what i do define me? it can't because i do and therefore i am so many things as to defy definition.

[Eva]

I'm a bee-gan (use honey). Buuuut, I bought a leather jacket several years ago that looks like hot stuff on me, haven't worn it in a while, but I can't bear to get rid of it. And I have a leather skirt a friend gave me that looks pretty nice too -- but darned if I never once had the courage to wear it. I do make an effort to use products without animals tested, but I don't use much "product" anyways so it's no big deal.

I joke when someone really tries to pin me down. That's when I share all of the info above (and more) and then finally say in a dramatic way that I guess I'm a rabbit foodist that eats cookies and cakes too.

None of the labels really work.

Nevertheless... I DO say in Hungarian restaurants that I'm a raw vegan and ask if I can get a large portioned raw salad. My Hungarian is not at the place where I have room to make things any more complicated than that. And I'm pretty sure that most people in restaurants here have no concept of vegan ideology and that I'm putting a bum label on myself.

[saxmaam]

It seems like a diet's name ought to refer to what you eat as opposed to what you wear!

Over the years I have found it convenient to call myself a vegetarian. That way, for example, the nice (74 y/o) lady down the street who sometimes shares a dish of food with me can easily understand that I don't want ham, chicken, whatever. It doesn't seem personal and I don't have to describe distinctions about humane food production and reject things in what seems to be an arbitrary manner.

She is pretty bumfuzzled about the raw-food thing, though. She is certain that my diet now is quite unhealthy and would like me to name a time when I would start eating sensibly again. She doesn't know that I think HER diet isn't healthy :rolleyes:

Susan

[Ilse W.]

I love "bumfuzzled", I have to add it to my list of cool words not common to "American English". I used to watch BBC America a lot and learned all sorts of cool words, lol.:D

[Raine]

I love "bumfuzzled", I have to add it to my list of cool words not common to "American English". I used to watch BBC America a lot and learned all sorts of cool words, lol.:D

BBC America rocks! I adore Laurence Llewelyn-Bowen and Graham Norton and Ground Force. That's one of the very few things I miss about not having a TV.

[Ilse W.]

I no longer have TV either. I miss Top Gear. Thank goddess for YouTube.:D

[tammay]

Emma, I've heard what you describe called a "strict vegetarian" in most vegan circles.

Tam

[MOTH]

It seems like a diet's name ought to refer to what you eat as opposed to what you wear!

Over the years I have found it convenient to call myself a vegetarian. That way, for example, the nice (74 y/o) lady down the street who sometimes shares a dish of food with me can easily understand that I don't want ham, chicken, whatever. It doesn't seem personal and I don't have to describe distinctions about humane food production and reject things in what seems to be an arbitrary manner.

She is pretty bumfuzzled about the raw-food thing, though. She is certain that my diet now is quite unhealthy and would like me to name a time when I would start eating sensibly again. She doesn't know that I think HER diet isn't healthy :rolleyes:

Susan


This is kinda off topic - but I get so annoyed by people telling me that my diet is unhealthy. Where do they get off? I usually turn the other cheek and just smile and say, "well, my body likes it," but the next person that says that to me, I'm just going to stare them cold in the eye and say, "Well, what do YOU eat?"

Commentary may follow.

[coco]

the question i ask is "really? how do you know?" sometimes i enquire as to their scientific background, what they are basing that belief on, etc. sometimes i offer a resource on the internet or the name of a book to read like The China Study. sometimes i gently thank them for their concern and reassure them that i have researched nutrition very well myself and certainly know what i am doing.
people are so mired in what they think they believe and they often look for validation in the support or conversion of other people. religion is like that a lot, if you don't beleive what they believe you're going to hell etc. if you don't eat what they eat you're going to get very sick or even die. it's silly, really.

[RawSweetie]

If you eat a vegan diet, but wear leather, etc., then YOU are not A vegan. There is not actually any wiggle room here. :) However, it's fine, as others have said, to say, if asked, "Yes, my diet is vegan."

Many vegans really do care a great deal that this is understood, and it's not something to pooh-pooh quickly and unthinkingly (and perhaps defensively?) IMO.

There is much, muuuuuch discussion of this fundamental issue on www.veganfreak.com

[Ilse W.]

Moth,
I know what you mean. Yesterday, even my naturopath who asked me for a recipe for raw raspberry cheese cake told me that she was worried that I am not getting enough protein. :confused: Eh?

[coco]

pfft, 'cause raw cheesecake isn't pure protein or something? gah, people can be so moronic!

and sure, there are those who do very much wish to be labelled "vegan" and out of respect for them i don't mind keeping the meaning clear by not calling myself one. i wonder though how many of them have housepets and still consider themselves vegan. i don't think that is very vegan at all, rescued animals or not. but you know, the semantics of that can be argued forever, it means something different to everyone. that's the trouble with trying to apply a definitive label to anything.

[Raine]

Whenever I get questioned about my diet or anything else in my life that someone deems is "out of the norm", I simply respond, "I'm a Texan - we're known for being half a bubble off."

I've yet to find anyone be able to come back with any type of response to that!

[RawSweetie]

Whenever I get questioned about my diet or anything else in my life that someone deems is "out of the norm", I simply respond, "I'm a Texan - we're known for being half a bubble off."

I've yet to find anyone be able to come back with any type of response to that!

Ha, cute!
I think it's John Bradshaw that suggest responding with someting utterly nonsensical when someone tries to shame or embarrass you or make you uncomfortable. I have yet to drum up the courage to do this, but it makes me giggle when I think of doing it.

I have fun thinking up various nonsensical replies...:p

[debilana]

I totally do not want to start any sort of excitement in asking this- but I am just confused- if I do a good thing for the world by rescuing animals and not eating or wearing them- that means I am not a vegan? That its better for little animals to be killed or live their whole life in cages? that places like a Farm sanctuary is a bad place? hell some of them rescue veal calves right off the sides of the road and nurse them back to health.

just curious- I thought being kind to critters was part of the picture. I have heard some folks do not believe in pets per se but rescusing an animal from a cruel fate and loving it til it dies peacefully, without breeding it, seems good and right.

[Raine]

I totally do not want to start any sort of excitement in asking this- but I am just confused- if I do a good thing for the world by rescuing animals and not eating or wearing them- that means I am not a vegan? That its better for little animals to be killed or live their whole life in cages? that places like a Farm sanctuary is a bad place? hell some of them rescue veal calves right off the sides of the road and nurse them back to health.

just curious- I thought being kind to critters was part of the picture. I have heard some folks do not believe in pets per se but rescusing an animal from a cruel fate and loving it til it dies peacefully, without breeding it, seems good and right.

Do what feels right to you - ditch the labels. I'm about 90% raw, but I wear leather and if I see a stray dog (especially a Doberman!), I'll stop everything to make sure it's owners are called or get it to the SPCA.

[Guitar Pete]

The term "vegan" is a relatively modern invention. It was coined here in England by Donald Watson and a group of his fellow "non-dairy vegetarians" in 1944, when they established the Vegan Society. According to us (I am a member), this is the official definition "A vegan is someone who tries to live without exploiting animals, for the benefit of animals, people and the planet. Vegans eat a plant-based diet, with nothing coming from animals - no meat, milk, eggs or honey, for example. A vegan lifestyle also avoids leather, wool, silk and other animal products for clothing or any other purpose."

So as far as diet is concerned, the definition is quite unequivocal. No animal products whatsoever. As far as the use of animal products for clothing etc., the definition allows considerable leeway. Let's say there was a particular product you needed, and there was no vegan alternative, well then, you have no choice but to buy the animal-derived product.

Labels can be both important and useful in certain situations, for example when you have to describe your dietary requirements to someone, perhaps a caterer. Now here's the thing. I have no problem with what anyone chooses to eat. It's a personal choice, and I respect that. However, if we misuse terms like "vegetarian" and "vegan", it only serves to confuse the vast majority of people, and that's where difficulties can arise.

Just my opinion.

Pete

[coco]

i don't consider keeping housepets vegan (i have rescue cats and fish myself) because it is not natural and can't therefore be the best, least harmful thing for them. it also supports the pet industry in so many ways most notably their food. there are people that try to feed their pets vegetarian or vegan diets but that is not their natural diet and is therefore harmful to them. so there you go, darned if you do, darned if you don't. it's totally and perfectly fine, it's not the practice, it's only the label that is wrong or troublesome here.

[Raine]

Lovely response Guitar Pete....thank you.

[RawSweetie]

The term "vegan" is a relatively modern invention. It was coined here in England by Donald Watson and a group of his fellow "non-dairy vegetarians" in 1944, when they established the Vegan Society. According to us (I am a member), this is the official definition "A vegan is someone who tries to live without exploiting animals, for the benefit of animals, people and the planet. Vegans eat a plant-based diet, with nothing coming from animals - no meat, milk, eggs or honey, for example. A vegan lifestyle also avoids leather, wool, silk and other animal products for clothing or any other purpose."

So as far as diet is concerned, the definition is quite unequivocal. No animal products whatsoever. As far as the use of animal products for clothing etc., the definition allows considerable leeway. Let's say there was a particular product you needed, and there was no vegan alternative, well then, you have no choice but to buy the animal-derived product.

Labels can be both important and useful in certain situations, for example when you have to describe your dietary requirements to someone, perhaps a caterer. Now here's the thing. I have no problem with what anyone chooses to eat. It's a personal choice, and I respect that. However, if we misuse terms like "vegetarian" and "vegan", it only serves to confuse the vast majority of people, and that's where difficulties can arise.

Just my opinion.

Pete

Hi Pete,
I agree with you that this particular label is useful; however, I disagree that the definition of "vegan" allows for "considerable leeway" in areas such as clothing. Again, people who avoid leather but wear, say, silk and wool, are doing a GREAT, GREAT thing!! But they are not actually vegan. I think it is very, very important for people who are interested in this question to be informed. It's not helpful to the vegan movement for there to be lots and lots of different definitions with lots of loopholes for what a vegan is and does.

I was vegan myself for a few years, but couldn't find vegan shoes that really supported my gimpy feet well enough. Today I wear leather shoes and I don't call myself a vegan anymore. Yes, there are some organizations that promote a very loose def. of the word.

Of course, in no way am I insinuating that all we do for animals is less-than if we aren't technically vegan. Not. At. All. :)

[rawstrength]

The term "vegan" is a relatively modern invention. It was coined here in England by Donald Watson and a group of his fellow "non-dairy vegetarians" in 1944, when they established the Vegan Society. According to us (I am a member), this is the official definition "A vegan is someone who tries to live without exploiting animals, for the benefit of animals, people and the planet. Vegans eat a plant-based diet, with nothing coming from animals - no meat, milk, eggs or honey, for example. A vegan lifestyle also avoids leather, wool, silk and other animal products for clothing or any other purpose."

So as far as diet is concerned, the definition is quite unequivocal. No animal products whatsoever. As far as the use of animal products for clothing etc., the definition allows considerable leeway. Let's say there was a particular product you needed, and there was no vegan alternative, well then, you have no choice but to buy the animal-derived product.

Labels can be both important and useful in certain situations, for example when you have to describe your dietary requirements to someone, perhaps a caterer. Now here's the thing. I have no problem with what anyone chooses to eat. It's a personal choice, and I respect that. However, if we misuse terms like "vegetarian" and "vegan", it only serves to confuse the vast majority of people, and that's where difficulties can arise.

Just my opinion.

Pete

Well said, Pete!

[Guitar Pete]

It's not helpful to the vegan movement for there to be lots and lots of different definitions with lots of loopholes for what a vegan is and does.

That was exactly the point I was trying to make in my post, so we are in complete agreement. By "considerable leeway", I only meant that there are certain situations where a vegan alternative to an essential product or service is unavoidable. I consider myself as vegan as they come, for both ethical and health reasons, yet I work for a company that serves animal products whenever they call in caterers for events and meetings. So, by working for this company I am inadvertantly helping to prop up the meat and dairy industries.

In an imperfect world there's only so much an individual can do.

Pete

[RawSweetie]

That was exactly the point I was trying to make in my post, so we are in complete agreement. By "considerable leeway", I only meant that there are certain situations where a vegan alternative to an essential product or service is unavoidable. I consider myself as vegan as they come, for both ethical and health reasons, yet I work for a company that serves animal products whenever they call in caterers for events and meetings. So, by working for this company I am inadvertantly helping to prop up the meat and dairy industries.

In an imperfect world there's only so much an individual can do.

Pete

I see. Thanks for clarifying this.:) I agree, there is only so much one can do...

[Eva]

Funny, this discussion has made me think more about my leather jacket and skirt that I don't quite feel right wearing... and about the honey I continue to use on my skin.

Not that I need or want to officially label myself... but it's just sparked some more thought for me.

And my mother has my dog now since I have been traveling so much. I have had a real ethical dilemma since I decided last year to put him on the BARF diet and was having to bring meat into my home to feed him. I guess that's not my dilemma anymore!

So, I guess... why not just do it? I'm already there except the honey and leather I have but don't wear. Hmmmm...

Anyways, just my own thoughts moving along here. Thanks for the clarification, Pete. :)

[annavon]

I don't get the part about not using wool. It doesn't kill the animal to get it, its just like giving them a buzz cut and if done properly doesn't hurt the animal. I lived on a farm for a few months where they raised sheep for milk (to make sheeps milk cheese). They didn't use the wool, but they sheep were sheared twice a year to keep them from developing diseases. Their coats would get wet during the rainy season and wouldn't dry so the animals would get sick if it wasn't cut off. Aparently wild sheep live in a cold/dry climate. Domesticated sheep aren't always well adapted to the environment they are in. (ie too wet or too hot). That said, perhaps some of the commercial environments for raising wool sheep is not as nice as where I lived, our sheep were well cared for (fed all organic food, including fresh greens), allowed to graze and seemd happy (they like to be petted like cats and dogs!)

[coco]

http://www.veganviews.org.uk/vv77/vv77wool.html

even if a farmer cares very well for his flock, there are many who don't. making wool a commonly used fiber creates a demand for it's use which Will be filled no matter the conditions under which subsequent animals are kept.

it's up to each individual what they will use and why and that's as it should be i think. doing or not doing something strictly to follow the definition of terminology seems ingenuine to me at best. the question to answer is how does it fit into your philosophy, how do you feel about it and what does it mean for you?