FAT in the raw food diet

[ANIMLOVER]

I felt the need to post this after my response on the AVO thread

I do not mean to offend, but we need to be aware of the amount of fat we consume. Raw or not.
I am currently reading about Dr. Graham and his natural hygiene. He states that too much of ANY fat is counterproductive to health and maintaining a diet of 10% of calories from fat is ideal.
I understand that this is a positive site and that's why I love it.
but we need to be realistic and not put blinders on.
I have been in the fitness field for YEARS.
All I want to do is shed some light on the fact that a major error of raw fooders is their amount of fat consumption.
Most of us eat WAY more fat than ppl on the SAD diet - I know it is RAW but FAT is FAT.
I am not being negative just you another point of view - is that so wrong? are we not here to help educate and learn?

A favorite web site of mine www.fredericpatenaude.com
posted this article and I'd like to share it with you.

What You Should Know About Raw Fat
by Dr. Douglas Graham
Published in JEAA, Vol. 2, #3

YouÂ’re Likely to be Consuming Too Much Fat If YouÂ…

Have candida, diabetes, hypoglycemia, or chronic fatigue.
Suffer from heart disease, cancer, or any digestive disorders.
Break out in acne, whiteheads, or blemishes.
Experience skin problems such as psoriasis, eczema, or dandruff.
Eat—or even desire—complex carbohydrates such as bread, pasta, rice, corn, or potatoes.
Crave sweets after dinner.
Finish a meal and then desire heavy, concentrated foods such as nuts, seeds, or avocado.
This is a brief overview of some concepts from my upcoming book entitled The 80/10/10 Diet. This introductory piece gives you a glimpse into an essential and controversial raw-food issue—the fact that the average raw fooder consumes an astonishingly unhealthy amount of fat.

To discuss the many questions you will surely have after reading this article, you can join my online discussion group at www.vegsource.com (click on Raw&Sport/Graham). Also, check my Web site,www.foodnsport.com, from time to time. IÂ’ll announce the publication of The 80-10-10 Diet sometime in 2005.

Confusing Advice About Fat
Most mainstream and raw experts assert that eating fat does not make us fat. They tell us that refined isolated fats and oils should be considered “health foods.” Many raw-food leaders teach that consuming fat won’t harm us as long as it’s raw. Some even insist that eating up to 80% of calories from fat is perfectly fine. They say that the unstable fats in nuts and seeds can withstand the heat of lengthy dehydration and subsequent room-temperature storage without degrading. They even go so far as to classify refined oil as “juice,” suggesting that we drink it as a daily health practice. You would do well to question all of this advice. Consider the following:

Myth: If ItÂ’s Raw, ItÂ’s Okay
Despite the marketing hype from the vendors of olive, flax, borage, hemp, grapeseed, and other “healthy” oils, these products are stripped of their carbohydrates, protein, and fiber. That means oils are refined foods—no longer the whole foods we all know our bodies were designed for. Worse, we consume quantities of fat as oil that we would be unlikely to eat as whole foods. Here are some important facts about fat.

• Cooked or raw, higher-than-healthy levels of fat in the bloodstream force fat to precipitate and adhere to arterial walls, a condition known as arteriosclerosis. A variety of vascular disorders are related to excessive consumption of dietary fat.

• Cooked or raw, increased fat in the bloodstream reduces the oxygen-carrying capacity of red blood cells, predisposing us to cancer and adversely affecting all cellular function, including brain-cell function. This results in impaired clarity of thought and decision-making, and may set the stage for senility, memory dysfunction, and learning disabilities.

• Cooked or raw, increased fat in the bloodstream requires an increased adrenaline response in order to drive the pancreas to produce insulin. Following excess stimulation, adrenal exhaustion sets in, the precursor for conditions such as Epstein-Barr virus, chronic fatigue syndrome, lupus, and myofascial disease, to name just a few.

• Cooked or raw, increased fat in the bloodstream results in increased demand for insulin. The resultant continuous drain on the pancreas eventually leads to pancreatic fatigue and chronically elevated blood-sugar levels. This predisposes us to a group of lipid (fat) metabolic disorders, mistakenly referred to as “blood-sugar metabolic disorders”: hyper- and hypoglycemia, hyperinsulinism, candida yeast, diabetes, and others.

Whether you eat cooked animal fat or raw vegetable oil, too much fat is too much fatÂ…and we must recognize its health-destroying potential.

Frederic Patenaude has a free weekly e-newsletter filled with unique nutrition tips , informative articles and exclusive interviews for you.


Fat, Not Sugar Is the Culprit
Here lies a key and an often-misunderstood physiological fact: In the presence of fat, our bodies require significantly higher-than-normal amounts of insulin to transport blood sugar across the vessel wall and the cell membrane. It’s the fat—not the sugar—in our diets that is a primary cause of candida, diabetes, and other blood-sugar problems. In Fruit or Fat?, I discuss this at length.

So, How Much Fat Should We Eat?
The percentage of calories that we consume as fat is an essential consideration for all of us, cooked or raw. The Pritikin Longevity Center, which holds the finest health-regeneration record of any organization in the U.S., recommends a dietary fat consumption of 10% or less. Keeping your fat consumption down to a maximum of 10% of your calories is by far the most healthful practice.

SAD, Veggie, Vegan, RawÂ…
Fat, Fat, Fat, Fattest?
Here are some numbers that may shock you. It is a well-known fact that those who eat the standard American diet (SAD) average a whopping 42% of their calories from fat. Surprisingly, IÂ’ve found that vegetarian and vegan diets tend to contain approximately 42% of calories from fat, as well. Vegetarians tend to consume a high amount of dairy, and vegans generally increase their use of oils.

Most unexpectedly, I have found that the average raw fooder eats even more fat than those who live on standard American fare. The oils, nuts, seeds, coconuts, avocados, olives, durians, and other fatty fruit in the overall diet of raw fooders add up to an astonishing 60% of calories (often much more) from fat. Fruit or Fat? will step you through the numbers in detail. For now, IÂ’ll give you just a brief illustration.

A large green salad, including an entire head of romaine lettuce, some tomatoes, and a variety of nonroot vegetables would contain about 100 calories, some 15 of which would come from fat. A dressing that blends three tablespoons of oil (375 calories), an ounce of pine nuts (178 calories), and some cilantro, salt, and lemon juice would supply about 550 calories—about 530 of them from fat. Dice in a small avocado (250 calories—85% fat), and the resulting 900-calorie meal would provide about 90 calories from carbohydrates, about 55 from protein, and more than 755 of its calories from fat—that’s 84% fat!

80/10/10 for Optimum Health
When IÂ’ve done this math on full meal plans with thousands of raw fooders over the years, they see for themselves: the standard raw diet is extremely high in fat. In Fruit or Fat? IÂ’ll take you step by step through the math, showing you that a low-fat, high-fruit raw diet that contains 80% carbohydrates (from fruit), 10% protein, and 10% fat is by far the most healthful and sustainable raw-food approach.

You know we are all doing our best
we all have food issues or we wouldn't be here
We need to learn and educate ourselves and each other
WE NEED TO BE OPEN MINDED TO ALL ASPECTS OF THE RAW FOOD DIET

thank you for letting me share

TORI

[city]

I appreciate that too much fat is counterproductive. However, a 10% fat diet is WAY too little fat. For example, I am an endurance athlete. An example workout for me is a 10 mile run followed by an hour long hard swim. If I fall below 25% fat I feel like I'm going to pass out and die. I usually have to eat at least 30-35% fat diet during hard training. My doctors and nutritionists all have in the past chided me for eating too little fat. In fact, I was holding on to extra weight (yep, even with that workout!) when I was eating too little fat. I'm sorry, I just have to disagree with the 10% rule.

[ANIMLOVER]

City,
You should read more about dr. Douglas Graham's program, he has consulted MANY athletes, including Martina Navatralova (I know I butchered that!!)
Are you a Triathlete?
I run marathons, I did Boston this year!
Your training schedule is mroe time consuming and diciplined than mine. I agree that 10% fat is on the low side, but something to shoot for a few days out of the week.
Your dedication and time commitment to athletics is not the norm for the general population, hell, mine isn't the norm!
After monitoring my fat intake and being surprized by the LARGE % I was eating, I am trying to lower it.
It is not easy, especially when you are as active as we are.
But is is something to be aware of!
PEACE and LOVE
I'd like to see your journal and pic. Are you on this site?

[podol]

Just because somebody is consulting somebody does not mean he is authority on yuor body. We need thre groups: protein, carbos and fat. Not every fat is the same. 30 gram of fat per day is a norm. Olive and coconut oil are the best fats.

[city]

No. I don't really like to post my picture on the web for privacy reasons. I'm nothing special to look at anyway - so you're not missing much. This Dr. Graham (and mayb Dr. Ornish) are the only people who advocate 10%.

Now, I do understand that 15 hours of training every week is not the norm for most people. But then I probably eat more calories than people who don't. so, I eat more fat. If you keep the percentage the same (25%) but eat fewer calories, you're going to be eating less fat than I am.

[Rawkinlocs]

Animalover,

We also need to keep in mind that:

1. It took Dr. Graham YEEEEARS to get where he is. At one time, he was just like us, eating nut-heavy dishes and lot's of (raw) fat.

2. Most of us here are just starting out and we gotta do what we gotta do to get where we're trying to get to.

3. The fat we are eating in this raw "diet" is NOTHING compared to what many of us ate before going raw, not to mention the TYPE of fat (lot's of nuts and avocados vs. lots of fried chicken, fried this/fried that, every store-bought cookie being made with shortening, etc.

4. Most long-term raw foodists' end up tapering off a lot of fat and other things the longer they're raw, so in the beginning, it really is fine because IF we are intune with our bodies and we heed to the messages and signals sent, our body will automatically tell us when we've had too much fat, too many nuts, etc. I mean, just read many of the posts and journals here and you'll see a LOT of people who are now eating less fat...NOT because someone told them to, but because they are listening to their own body!

That is, always has and always will be the best indicator and teacher is to listen to one's own body. I agree that too much fat is not good, raw or not, but you must allow people to arrive there on their own. The information out there is fine to let them know that is a goal to some day reach, but for now all we're trying to do is stay raw and if these recipes and things are what helps us do that, then so be it...for now.

Dr. Graham wasn't low-fat/NH overnight. Sure we can learn from others' mistakes or experiences but sometimes things that happen(ed) to one person won't/don't necessarily happen to another. Not all raw foodists experience what Fred P. experienced and they eat the same way he did. Raw may be good for all, but not all raw eating plans are the same for every person. For one it may be less fruit and more greens, for another it may be more fruit and less nuts, etc.

You have to count calories in order to stay at your goal weight, etc....many others do not and they never gain a pound. We're all the same physiologically, yet we're not all the same.

[Revvell]

I totally agree w/ Rawkin. Problem is, most people come on this board and see a post like that and start with fear because they, at the beginning actually NEED the fat they are eating. And as Cherie says, they most likely, IF they go 100% (especailly) will taper off the fat and into more fruits and veggies. I know I did.

When someone says this is how we "have" to be, I can see it as something to strive for yet (although, after awhile it's not even a "striving" yet a natural evolution), to say ultimately the wonderfilled foods they are just getting use to ~ and a whole new way of eating ~ and they are doing it wrong immediately, is a detriment to this lifestyle.

Most people, especially coming off SAD NEED to do the "gourmet" type foods. After a few weeks and even months, they will most likely transisiton naturally into more fruits and veggies as their body acclimates to a new way of eating.

IF they are mixing cooked and especially still eating meat, it will take longer.

Revvell

[Alissa]

Animlover,
I respect that what you feel is right for your body is what you need to do. If you feel you do well on 10% then by all means that is the way you should eat. But this is not a 'fact' or a 'rule' that we need to watch for many people. Doug and I are very very good friends and I even traveled with him for many many months at one point up the cost of CA and Oregon and we put together a fitness camp about 6 years ago. I ate his diet with him for a long time and we worked out together every morning and afternoon. Many times we were just camping with no one else around and we worked out together and did everything together. I ate specifically according to his way for about 8 months to a year. Im telling you this because i can tell you that it is not correct that everyone should do 10 10 80. I agree with what city said. It did not work for me. Ive been doing this diet for 16-17 ( i donÂ’t know, lost count), years... did i look good during that time, oh yeah, but then i started to feel bad, was starving all the time and when i added fat i lost weight.

Doug is a natural hygienist. There is a big difference between being a raw foodist and a natural hygienist. I love Doug and i love what he teaches and i personally have learned a lot form him and there are many periods in time where i do eat along the lines of his diet, but then if i want a big honkin' piece of date nut tort (with about 80 grams of fat per slice, i would imagine :p ) i have it. Many times i eat more gourmet, more dense foods. If im in colder temperatures, if im stressed, if im in a different phase of my life.... things change. Its not, for me at least, about counting fat. It IS different eating fat from raw food. You cannot compare raw foods to the medical model. Actually i learned that from Doug!
It doesnÂ’t work. donÂ’t take what you were doing in the cooked world and try to make it work here. There is a huge difference between cooked fats and raw fats.

Now for me, this is what works. For you, you may feel and function better with less fat, thatÂ’s fine and you should certainly follow what works for you. But having also worked with 1000's of people with their diets i know that for most people, regardless of how long even they have been raw, this diet of 10 10 80 is a sure way to sabotage your raw food journey. Its not possible for most people to stick with that low of fat intake. And personally i really do feel that 10 percent fat is way to low. Ive seen the effects over time with people on this kind of diet and even the way people begin to age is not pretty on this low fat intake over a period of years.

Again, I respect your right to choose what works for you and of COURSE you can share this here!! Of coarse you can. But when you make it sound like this:

“but we need to be realistic and not put blinders on.
I have been in the fitness field for YEARS.
All I want to do is shed some light on the fact that a major error of raw fooders is their amount of fat consumption.”

I donÂ’t believe that is true. I donÂ’t think there is a major error of raw fooders in the amount of fat consumption just because they are not limiting their intake to 10%. That is WAY WAY WAY too low for most people in my experience.
Again, if this works for you fine, but we all have different needs and although im sure there are some people who need to cut out some nuts or oils if they are not losing weight and gorging on these particular raw foods, the majority of raw fooders in my opinion do well with a much higher percentage then what Doug recommends.
Best,
Alissa

[solarliving]

This could be false advertising but I have read that Coconut oil is being used for candida among other things. Also in the book, "Fats that Heal, fats that kill," it states, "fats promote more complete digestion and help ensure that no undigested food enters the colon to feed yeasts, fungi and bacteria." It also cliams that fats and oil inhibit the grouwth of fungi and yeasts.

In addition; EFA's increase metabolic rate by increasing oxidation. Candida thrive in decreased oxidtion, lower body temp and low metabolic rate.

It is hard to say who is accurate, all one can do is go by how they feel.

[ANIMLOVER]

WOW!
Thanks for all the replies
Especially Alissa's!!

I just thought I'd put that article out there, and thank you for letting me do so!

I am just exporing natural hygiene and am interested, but maybe I should excell in raw food first!

I am trying to keep my fat intake low, cuz if I just let go and "listen to my body" I would ONLY eat NUTS NUTS NUTS!!!
The amount of fat I consume when I don't monitor it is in total excess! I mean 50%!

Now I try to maintain it at 20% give or take a few %ages.
I find it difficult to eat only 10%, it is extreme, but so is 50%!
I, like so many, am trying to figure this out, I just think we need to read and fill ourselves with as much research and knowledge we can, and then decide.

Alissa, the article above states that FAT is FAT be it raw of cooked. I understand that animal fat is different. I've been a VEGAN for years and a vegetarian b4 that. I am not transitioning from the SAD diet so maybe I'm just looking to be at a low fat stage NOW - God knows I'm inpatient!

What fat % do you suggest for weight loss with energy?
Please don't say listen to your body CUZ I LOVE FAT - nuts, seeds...YUMMY!
How long does a person have to wait to not crave the need for fat sources?

It must have been wonderfult o spend time with Doug, and him with YOU!
Please share any insight you gained from him concerning nutrition for athletes (I have ordered his books: Nutrition for athletes and the one on grains)

thank you for listening! AND REPLYING!!!

[Alissa]

Hi Animlover,
Sure its nice to get other view points, (as long as they are raw ;)) for this board as it is a raw food support board but there certainly is a lot of different ways to do raw. I think its good that you know that for yourself if you ‘listen to your body’ you will eat too many nuts and too much fat. If you know you don’t feel well with that much fat then certainly its good to eat less of it. That’s great your figuring that out. It really is a learning process. That’s the thing, A lot of people think they can do raw for a couple o f weeks and figure out the perfect diet. There is NO prefect diet. And let me want you ahead of time… even when you think you have it figured out and have been eating raw for years and you feel you found the perfect way for you to eat… it will change! Think about it, we are always changing as human beings so of course our diet wouldn’t stay the same as a few years before when we were in a different location, environment, doing different things, working out differently, In a different emotional state, etc… its ever changing .

DonÂ’t try to pin this diet down, it will never be perfect, just like us! LOL!

Ok, so first, I personally don’t believe that ‘fat is fat’. If that were true people would not be dying of excess meet consumption and healing themselves from a high fat raw diet. Ive just seen both too many times. Of course there is always the person who is gorging themselves and eating 20 cups of nuts a day, etc.. and obviously that’s not the healthiest diet either. Excessive amounts of one particular thing is not good for anyone, raw or not and there are always those that go to the extreme.

Animlover, I really never never never tell people what percentage of fat or anything else they should have. I have obviously got pretty good at looking at a few days worth of peoples food intake and knowing what needs to be cut out, added, or changed. Most of it is because I have been doing this for so long but some is intuitive also as you need to take into consideration the persons mental state as well. I strongly believe that. Its really not just about the food. But that is another issue that we can discuss but lets stick to this first.

You asked in the above post: “What fat % do you suggest for weight loss with energy?
Please don't say listen to your body CUZ I LOVE FAT - nuts, seeds...YUMMY!”


See this is the problem. Of course you cant listen to your body because unless your starting with a clean slate your body doesn’t know exactly what it needs. How can it tell when its still getting cooked, (I don’t know if your 100% raw or not) or too much of the wrong foods and is off balance. This is why I tell people to go 100% raw, totally vegan raw. Raw raw raw, no exceptions for a month or two or more because only then, I believe is when you can really start to listen to your body for signals. But here is also the thing. Even then, how do you know those signals are coming from the emotional or physical? It takes time to really get this. Not days or weeks or even months for some people. This is why I say to people, ‘go raw, don’t worry about the amounts of things, let your body heal and cleanse and when its ready you will naturally start to crave what you need and what is right.’
Otherwise people after weeks, months, etcÂ…start adjusting or listening to other people and saying, ok maybe thatÂ’s my problem, and start cutting back and cutting out and adding weird things and then saying, this doesnÂ’t work and this and that is not doing it for me. Like I always say, donÂ’t expect to be cooked for 30-40-50 years and then after a month to have it perfected with the raw diet. It takes time really it does.

You also asked:
‘How long does a person have to wait to not crave the need for fat sources?’
LOL, wouldnÂ’t it be wonderful if I could answer that one! Who knows?! Anyone who tells you an exact amount of time it takes is lying. And you will always crave fat sources if your not eating enough of them. At first you will crave more on raw, avocados, nuts, etc.. because your body is adjusting to a new way of eating. Your body is using these fats much more efficiently and quickly then cooked fats so you need more at first since your body is not used to the clean fuel its getting. It will subside, but give it time. I can promise you this. If you do 10% fat you will be craving fat more often then not. Maybe not at first, maybe not in the middle, but at different times. Why not just eat raw and let your body adjust. You wont be eating tons of nuts and loads of fat for very long. YouÂ’ll get sick of it. Your body is craving it for a reason. Maybe it needs the good healthy fats and maybe you shouldnÂ’t deny it that.
Also, I would eat more avocados and fatty fruits and vegetable instead of tons of nuts as you wont feel great after eating that many nuts. But again, you need to step back and let it take its course, I just feel an urgency to get it right. Raw food will never work if you need to be perfect with your diet. Its not set up that way. If youÂ’re a calorie counter, fat watcher, carb and protein analyzer (not saying you are) then this isnÂ’t the diet for you.

This diet is so beautiful and feeing. Let it be that. WhatÂ’s the point if your going to do it the same way you did cooked?

[vegankristen]

OK, I've learned that listening to your body is much harder than you think it is! You hear someone say "Just listen to your body", unfortunately that translates to, "ok, my body says......eat 500 bowls of banana ice cream with mounds of almond butter". Ehhh..wrong! That's what your tastebuds, and all of the mentally ingrained cravings from over the years are telling you. Listening to your body means knowing what nutrients your body needs. Turns out, this is the biggest challenge I have faced since i began eating raw foods in March. How do you decipher what is a craving, and what is a call for more greens? This is a rather exciting discovery and challenge for me - to realize I really DON'T know everything about my body. "Kristen, i'd like you to meet your body. Body, this is Kristen. Be friends". Being friends with your body is tough!

What i've done so far is pay much more attention to how i feel after eating a certain food. After a big green salad, I'm full of energy. After eating my banana ice cream with walnuts, I feel like taking a nap. Slowly but surely, i'm learning what to eat when i'm lethargic, what works best early in the morning (light, watery fruits for me), which foods take longer to digest, etc, etc.

I tried 80 10 10 for about a month & found that I was ready to fall into bed as soon as I got off work at 5pm! Turns out...I need my greens, and a lot of them! Now I eat about half fruit, half veggies each day, and when it comes to fat, I'll have a half of an avocado or a couple Tbsp tahini and a handful of nuts. If i have more fat, my stomach hurts and i get tired; if i have less...well, i'd probably be fine, but i don't think i'd be able to stay sane if i tried to hold back!! We all know what happens when you try to hold back....you'd find yourself staring at the bottom of an empty jar that was full of almond butter 5 minutes earlier! Now, my cravings are becoming in tune with what i actually need. I no longer crave a ton of banana ice cream with almond butter, b/c the first thing that comes to mind is a stomachache rather than the taste, the texture, etc, etc. That doesn't mean I don't eat it....I do!; except now it's a reasonable amount, and i've broken the routine of "needing" it as soon as i get home everyday.

And like we've all been saying over & over: everyone is different! Some people could eat bananas until they turn into one, while others need greens, and then others are in the middle, or to the right, left, upside down, sideways, etc!

Either way, learning & discovering new things about myself is probably the coolest thing i've experienced since going raw (well, that and 18 lbs gone!). Allow raw to not only change the way you eat, but the way you think and listen and absorb everything around you (i'm not a hippie, i swear it!).

Good Luck!
Hope I didnt ramble for too long!
Kristen

[Rawkinlocs]

Vegankristen, I agree with what you said about listening to one's body not meaning to listen to the taste buds! LOL!

I was just thinking about this in the car today as we were driving around running errands. I was thinking about how we say we'll eat a cooked something or other to "treat" ourselves. And the thought came to me, "what exactly are we treating? Our body or simply our tastebuds?"

It's pleasing on the palette the moment we're eating it, but what does it do to our bodies later, is the question. So no, listening to your body isn't listening to cravings, but then again it is. It really depends on where you are and I think my point was that, the longer one is raw, the cleaner your body becomes, THEN you can hear distinctively what you should be eating by (as you stated) how you feel when you eat it. Like Victoria B. was saying how her kids were craving certain fruits or veggies and she later found out when she talked with Joel Robbins that they had actually craved things he suggested they needed for particular things they had going on with their bodies.

[ANIMLOVER]

Thanks for all the replies :)

Please don't get offended at my posts.
I like being controversial and appreciate your answers to my questions!

Today I ate 12% fat!
This included 1/2 an avocado!
My body/cravings/emotions wanted almonds and sunflower seeds with dried fruit like yesterday. BUT I resisted!!!

I will chug along trying and experimenting with this lifestyle. I may need to relax a bit like Alissa says but it's always been all of nothing with me.

I have no health problems and my main reason for going raw from a vegan lifestyle, hate to say it, but it's weight loss. That is why I am so concerned with calories and FAT.

Some of you may say that I don't need to lose weight, but when I was 118 I looked and felt awesome! AND I am a runner, the lighter, the faster!
BUT I'm fessing up I AM VAIN! OKOKOK!!!

I think I like bananas so much because they are creamy - just like fat!
I ate a BUNCH today!

peace

[rawpriestess]

YES YOU CAN LISTEN TO YOUR BODY NOW!!!.

When you say you want to eat 500 bowls of banana ice cream and it is your taste buds, it isn't it is your ego.

Your body will talk to you in a gentle quiet voice, just like spirit, God, your angels. There is NO urgency, no anxiety, no craziness, no NOW, there just simply is a soft gentle voice of "yes, this sounds like it would be a good thing to eat."

Your ego, says, "WE GOTTA' HAVE IT NOW!!, AND IT HAS TO BE CRUNCHY, OR JUICY, OR SWEET AND IT HAS TO BE RIGHT NOW, AND HOT AND FROM YOUR FAVORITE STORE."

Also, if you are listening to your body, you will want the item whether it is hot or cold, or warm, and it will want it usually fresh and not made with a lot of condiments.

When you want condimanets it usually means that you aren't actually hungry.

True hunger is a "NEED" to eat.

[VeganVixen]

I ok ---now --- you cant NOT expect me to weigh in on THIS issue :p

Ok , I have had REAL problems with fat (not only weight gain ) but in the way my body handles all fats -even raw (exept a splash of E.V. olive oil ,here an' there and maybe a TEENY bit of avo or GREEN raw pistachio) . I have a body that does HORRIBLY on moderate fat intake (HELLO ,I had GALLSTONES at 15!!!!! ,I throw up automatically after eating fats -its OBVIOUS!) , SO ,I stay away from them! But OTHERS do BEAUTIFULLY on fats!

like Courtney thourne-smith (a thin actress who stars in according to jim) when I say thin I mean thin she sayed that she loves nuts ,and everyone tells her that if she eats as much of them as she does,supposedly alot, she will have digestion problems and get fat.She says that she tells those people that this is what works for HER and she has taken alot of time to find what works for her,so you must always take that into count ,also *for people like me* portion control is EXTREMELY important (AND HARD) with high fat foods like nuts ,which are way easy to "zone out on" ,unfortunantly they are a " I betcha can't eat just one " type of food....... just listen to your bod ,it knows whats best ;)


I eat about 2-3 % fats , I just cant digest them!!!!

I have another freind who is VERY (also named Courtney :rolleyes: -maybe I should change my name :p !!) who can digest rocks! She can eat ANYTHING , like 4 plates of sad chinese food :eek: ,and feel fine ,and be TOOTHPICK skinny ,her dad can do the same thing! So she has a "buzzy" body ,and I think these bodies do great with fats........I have a body that can do carbs ,and stay thin - but I have mediteranian ancestery(italian / asian (russian,a bit of japanese ,,and some mongolian) -so that might make it easier for me to do carbs? LOL ,but that doesnt explain my English side ,and my tiny drop of native american(my majority) -but I guess the other won the gene lotto?

I seem to notice that the people from athletic/warrior/"hunter" backgrounds do better with PLANT fats ,like native americans,african ,vikings like norway ,sweden , middle eastern ,seem to have the "buzzy" bodies that do best on higher fat /lower sugar -but that might be "just me" ,and raw foods seem to expose that ancient "fuel calling" that all of us have!-and of course there ARE wildcards :p

[VeganVixen]

LOVE the "ego" take on this subject R.P. !!!! That totally sums it up!

[Pailani]

See this is the problem. Of course you cant listen to your body because unless your starting with a clean slate your body doesnÂ’t know exactly what it needs. How can it tell when its still getting cooked, (I donÂ’t know if your 100% raw or not) or too much of the wrong foods and is off balance. This is why I tell people to go 100% raw, totally vegan raw. Raw raw raw, no exceptions for a month or two or more because only then, I believe is when you can really start to listen to your body for signals. But here is also the thing. Even then, how do you know those signals are coming from the emotional or physical? It takes time to really get this. Not days or weeks or even months for some people.

Alissa, this is a great post! Could it be added to the information forum? It does a great job of explaining why it takes time to learn what we need, and why starting 100 percent raw is so necessary.

[tames]

First of all, I agree. Probably the fat is not so good. This week I was on vacation. I made Alissa's date nut torte, and last night I made the chocolate cake. It took me 3 days to eat the date nut torte, and I could only eat one slice of the chocolate cake. Ha! I thought I could sit there and eat half of it last night. (By the way Alissa, I used pecans instead of cashews for the frosting, and it turned out great!)

I saw this video on vegsource.com - don't have the link to it right now. I turned vegetarian in early June, and was reading and watching anything I could. This M.D. was very expertly explaining that you can reduce and reverse coronary heart disease with a vegan diet. He had before/after pictures of coronary arteries where people decided to use a diet change instead of surgery or having stints implanted. I was getting quite excited about it. Then he said "NO OILS did you hear me? NO OILS!" I then was very discouraged. The next day, I had a salad with no oil. It was very boring and I could hardly swallow it down. He is not going to convert many people this way.

Then I found Alissa's site and was encouraged again to keep going. I don't have any facts, but using nuts, avacados and cold pressed olive oil has got to be A LOT better for me than eating cheeseburgers,chicken nuggets and doughnuts. You can be obsessive about many things. It seems our human nature always wants to be obsessive about something. That is why Alissa's encouragement can be lasting. You don't have to be obsessive about all that stuff. Your body will tell you what it wants. I thought I could eat the whole date nut torte in one sitting, but it was so rich, my body said "One slice is enough already!"

As far as raw oils being processed. You could say the same thing about juicing right? Most people would agree that vegetable juicing with some fruit is a good thing for you. But! It is still processed and all of the fiber is removed just like the olive oil. Same with using lemon juice or lime juice in a recipie.

I am not debating right/wrong. I am glad people keep making us think about things!

--Tim

[Pailani]

I thought I could eat the whole date nut torte in one sitting, but it was so rich, my body said "One slice is enough already!"

You're a better man than I. I know I could have eaten the whole thing in one sitting! I can't have even raw goodies around because I can't stop (and then my candida flares up!)

[Texicalian]

Tim - my father had a major heart attack on April 1st and died - twice. In mid-June, he had a stress test - and passed with flying colors having used 94% capacity of his heart. He then drove all over the Dallas/Ft. Worth Metroplex during rush hour traffic and passed that "stress test" with flying colors as well. He does eat cooked, although he's increased raw (I've got him hooked on Lara bars) and he eats organic. While there are certain dietary restrictions, he does have olive oil and eats avocados. His protocol includes oral chelation therapy, chi therapy and tons of supplements - and he walks everyday and is slowly increasing his time on the treadmill. Most of the blockages in three chamber of the heart have been removed and the chamber that had 100% blockage continues to create its own bypass with the exercise. He was supposed to have a quadruple bypass surgery and now does not need one. So there are ways to reverse CHD, and you don't need to cut out oils to do so!

[ANIMLOVER]

Hi Vixen!

I read your post in my thread about Fat in the raw food diet.

I am VERY curious, please SHARE!

I read that you are not good consuming fat and that you MUST keep your intake VERY low if not obsolete.

Please let me know what you eat in a few typical days?
Do you ever crave FAt (nuts/avo's)
How do you make a good tasting/textured salad dressing?
What about desserts? (please don't just say fresh fruit)

Do you have a favorite cookbook where you can eat the meals with no problem (no fat)

I've been trying to eat VERy simply - you can check out my journal, BUT I cannot stop eating and am consuming LOTS LOTS LOTS of food!
I am constantly fighting my cravings for NUTS!

I do make recipes at times, although since I'm TRYING to cut out grains my "diet" has become MORE simple!
When I make a recipe I try to use 1/2 the fats it suggests, this worked well with "breads"

I LOVe flax crackers and read somewhere that was cannot digest the seed. How do you do eating FLAX crackers (whole)?
WE do soak our crackers so I'm wondering if we digest them and assimilate the Fat?

PLEASE SHARE!!

[Revvell]

Texicalian,

High 5 your dad for me! Yayyyyyy!!! (mine died of a heart attack when I was 12. Smoker, meat and potatoes guy).

Revvell

[Shona]

Tames - was the MD you were referring to Dr. John McDougall? I had to laugh when you said he wouldn't convert many people by preaching no oil. Dr. McDougall has a very large following. He runs a vegan wellness clinic in Santa Rosa and has been advocating a low-fat vegan diet to cure degenerative lifestyle diseases since the '70's. I have been a 'McDougaller' for over ten years now and oil was actually the easiest thing to remove from my diet. You don't need oil to make a good salad dressing.

Shona :)

[askcassyfirst]

Lots of talk here has centered on fats, and whether we include them in our diets or not. Anyway, I figured it might be interesting to throw in another thought on raw fats, relating to the actual constuents of the food itself. The science, for lack of a better word.

A preface, this is info I have been reading recently, and I do not claim to be a scientist. However, it does lend credence to the idea that raw fats are healthy, so please bear with me as I fumble with the best language to explain what it is that I am trying to say:)

First, we must recognise that high fat = cardiovascular disease is truly a myth. Interestingly, tHis myth has even been debunked by those folks who eat a high animal product diet, in its raw state. For instance those backing the mediteranean style diet, fish eating asians, and the Weston Price group who eat raw fermented dairy. THe thing is, the elevated cholesterol (the LDL type) that comes from certain high fat diets, is due to the TYPE of oils consumed, as well as the inflammatory response in the body, not the very fact that it is fat. PEople with coronary artery plaque, are in that position due to thier bodies own healthy repair mechanism. The body CREATES and sends LDL cholesterol out into the bloodstream as a means of repairing cellular oxidation, nicks and cuts etc in the artery walls. The body is doing what it knows best to heal. THerefore, reducing the oxidative and free radical damage, can be helpful to reducing cholesterol, and we can achieve this by eating the proper type of fats, rather than reducing fat consumption. And, remember, many cooked fats such as transfatty acids are naturally going to cause oxidative damage...Good EFAs in their raw state on the other hand don't cause such damage, and they help increase the HDL which is the type responsible for going out into the bloodstream and picking up the damaging type of cholesterol, and sending it out through the bile, to the digestive tract for elimination...

I love raw fats, and find that like Alissa, David Wolfe, and many others have written, fats are what tend to satiate me. WIthout them, I get panicy, and will overeat on sweet fruits, consume things like wheat which agravate my IBS, and overall feel anxious and depressed. Seeds especially give my body the EFAs it needs to balance mood, hormones, skin cleansing, etc. Yes, I have tried the 80-10-10 programs, but they didn't agree with me in the long haul. I seem to do best with significant amount of fat in my diet.

I thought it would be interesting to note, that raw fats, unlike thier cooked counterparts, as I understand it, contain natural LIPASE. Lipase is the digestive enzyme used by our bodies to break down fats into fatty acids...Previous cultures realized this, and it is why the mediteraneans who ate/eat raw olive oils, seed oils, nut oils, (and even the eskimos & japanese who eat sushi) had little problem digesting the huge amount of fats in their diets. The food in its raw unprocessed state has the helper enzymes in it to assure that the "weight" of digestion is taken off our pancreas and other enzyme producing organs. And, proper digestion of fats is what allows them to be of use to us, and what prevents the awful indigestion that follows a high fat meal that didn't quite break down properly.

Now, indeed, each of our bodies IS different. Some of us may have better bile flow, and therefore the bile salts are clearly better able to break up our dietary fat into smaller droplets allowing greater surface area for our own digestive lipase to go to work. HOwever, for someone who has compromised fat digestion, due to a removed gallbladder, or a constipated liver, raw fats could be easier to digest because of the very fact that they contain the working lipase. (Supplemental lipase could also be consumed.) Certainly the bile released by the gallbladder is the first step in fat digestion, yet, lipase is what breaks down the fats such that they can be absorbed, and utilized by our body. Without proper healthy fats, our body's cells are not formed soft and pliable. We need fats for hormone production, as well as the cholesterol made within us (not cholesterol from animal products, but the type made "in house".)

So, that is why I personally feel that I need fats in my diet. And, why I celebrate eating them regularly. Just my two cents.

Cassy:)

[ANIMLOVER]

I just figured out how to PM!!
Shona - I Pm'ed you!!!!

[Pailani]

Thanks, Cassy! As usual, you're a wealth of information! You mentioned that you eat seeds. Do you eat nuts, too? Avocados? What about oil? I read here recently that cold-processed oil isn't necessarily raw, which pretty much eliminates it for me, there's no way I can afford $24 for a bottle of oil.

[askcassyfirst]

Hi Pailani!

I eat a ton of flax seeds, both for the oil, and the fiber...keeps me regular! :)

Yes, truly raw olive oil is expensive, but T and I use it sparingly, so I pay the extra, and enjoy. I keep some "regular" EVOO (extra virgin Olive Oil) around, mostly for when I cook for T, and need something that is healthy, but that might not be totally raw. THere is definately a flavor difference. However, I tend toward 85% raw these days, rather than 100%, so again, I try and not sweat it if my oil isn't perfectly raw. On the other hand, I also know that slightly processed oils may be worse for me than steamed veggies, as oil becomes dangerous when heated too hot. (reference my previous post) Olive and coconut, however, are typically a bit less tempermental and damageable this way. Flax oil, however, one has to watch VERY carefully.

I love avocados and coconut, and those are probably, in addition to the flax my greatest source of fats in the diet. I find that coconut also helps my metabolism, and skin. It is not uncommon for me to eat half a mature coconut per day, when I am on a coconut eating jag...I love to shell them, and then put the pieces in the freezer and knaw on them...

I eat other types of nuts too, although I find that they will cause me acne, more so then the coconuts. Probably because they are more likely to be rancid. I buy them preshelled, typically from Costco, or the bulk section of the HFS. I am sensitive to them. Tasty though.

Avocados, especially the FL type are my favorite for salad dressing, and sandwhich "cream" or mayo replacer. I will often mash them with a bit of celtic salt and lemmon juice, or a bit of vinegar. (SInce I am not 100% raw I figure the vinegar isn't too bad in the scheme of things, although I do try to use the apple cider type with the "mother" which is a fermented "live" typi.)

Hope that helps.

Cassy :)

[Pailani]

Thanks, Cassy! I'd forgotten about flax seeds, I even have some in my fridge.

I recently splurged on some cold-pressed olive oil, only to find out two days later that it might not be raw. But I discovered that I love it with vinegar on salads, it has a unique flavor like nothing else. So I need to decide if I should continue to use it, or just do without. Based on your other post about raw fats and heated fats, I'm thinking I should not use it. I can use seeds and avocados (my body seems to like seeds a lot more than nuts!)

[sweetgoddess]

well ooopsy, I have been assuming coldpressed oil IS raw, no????

[Autumn]

Cassy,
Thank you for your very thought-filled reply and wealth of information.

I am so tired of reading anti-raw sentiment and conjecture on a pro-raw board!

[askcassyfirst]

With regard to EVOO, or other Cold pressed oils not being "raw". I think this is one of those issues that comes up periodically...I was responding to Pailani's fear, which I undersatand, as I have that fear sometimes too. I think it is based on the "unknown". We really don't know if things we buy packaged, such as oils are truly unadulterated, do we...

I think some of that can be debatable though. From what I have read, olive oil is a bit less affected by slight heating, than something like flax oil which oxidizes much quicker...I think that when I get REALLY obsessive, (which by the way isn't healthy:) ) I tend to get after myself for things like EVOO not being "really" raw, when in reality, it isn't as big a deal as I make it out to be. HOnestly, I think that olive oil, cold pressed, and kept in dark glass, isn't nearly so bad as I fear it to be.

When I am in one of my obsessive moods, I tend to eat more avocados instead. BUt in the big scheme of things, what is worse, some oil that "might" have been warmed (but likely not over the damaging temp) and a cookie made from hydrogenated oils...THat is how I make the destinction to myself. And I eat the EVOO I get at restaurants, and don't blink an eye...

Just my thoughts.

Cassy

[RawTruth]

This is my post from a previous thread on olive oil -- I've edited it, and cut and pasted it here:

I use Bariani's oil which is truly raw; the person I buy it from deals with them directly, sells only truly raw products, and will pick up the phone, make the contact and let me talk to the manufacturer myself if I still doubt him. So, I would assure anyone who buys it that it is definitely raw. Alissa carries it on her website.

When I was first investigating "cold-pressed", I was surprised and dismayed to learn what it really means. Here is what Rhio says in Hooked on Raw:

- - -

What Should Cold-Pressed Really Mean?
When you go to the health food store and look in the oils section, you may see a lot of oils labeled as cold-pressed. But most, if not all, of those oils are not really cold-pressed. Cold-pressed should mean that the oil was extracted in such a way that it was not subjected to heat, and additionally, that heat was not generated in the process of the oil being extracted. If a little heat is generated, it should be below the temperature at which the value of the oil is destraoyed. Genuinely cold pressed oils have all their nutritional value intact, including enzymes, omega 3's and 6's, and other known and unknown factors. These oils must be refrigerated to preserve their freshness.

In Practice, What Does Cold-Pressed Mean?
Most cold-pressed oils have been heat treated. Seeds that are going to be mechanically pressed are usually cooked first to increase their yield. This means they are heated to 248 degrees F for up to two hours. This process cracks the seed, exposing the oils to air and light, which cause oxidation. The oil is then extracted by squeezing the cooked seeds with screw presses, which generate heat again (approximately 185 degrees to 203 degrees F). These oils are sold as unrefined, but, as you can see, they have gone through at least two heat processes, which destroyed their nutritional value. Such heated oils are detrimental to your health because most of their fatty acids have been converted from the natural cis fatty acid form (present in unheated oil) to trans fatty acids, which are toxic and have been implicated as a causative factor in heart disease and cancer.

- - -

If you don't have Rhio's book, I very strongly recommend it. She is truly an original and has researched all of the facts in it herself. She does not accept "common wisdom" in the raw world ... and does not simply repeat what she's heard or read. I consider her the very best resource. For those newbies who don't know, she's studied at the well-established raw health centers and created the raw food hotline in New York years ago. She is a persistent researcher, which I love, because I don't have to be, yet I can emulate her and do contact manufacturers myself, knowing from her what questions to ask.

By the way, I now buy my olive oil from Adam's Olives at my local farmers' market, directly from the man who presses the olives. If I wish, I could drive the 2-3 hrs and visit his plant to make sure he's telling me the truth.

[sweetgoddess]

Thank you Diana ( just love your smiling face) and Cassy for your responses.
I assumed all cold pressed oils were raw, but now that I see that is not so-phone calls are in order! ;)

[Autumn]

Cassy,
I wasn't referring to Paliani and the oil. I was referring to the origination of this thread and at least 2 others on the SAME ISSUE (raw fats are bad) in the past few days, and your first post on this thread, which started, "Lots of talk here has centered on fats, and whether we include them in our diets or not." (although all of your posts are informative!) I am glad that not everyone is buying into the "raw/plant fats are EVIL" mentality! Thank you again! :)

[hazyjane]

What a great forum. I think one thing to keep in mind, regarding the nuances of our diets, is our constitutional type. This may be a key to why one person feels better with low fat and another needs moderate fat. "Concious Eating" by Dr. Gabriel Cousens is a good book on live food veganism that discuses constitutional(dosha) types, as well as nervous system and oxidative body types.There really is no "one size fits all" because we're all so unique! I highly recommend the book because more knowledge always helps on our quest. That being said, another book I highly recommend for more info on the fat issue is "Eat To Live" by Joel Fuhrman M.D. Dr. Fuhrman has done more reviewing of human nutritional studies than anyone I've ever seen and he lays it out plainly. He himself follows a high raw vegan diet and his book is a great place to begin for people with heart disease, high cholesterol, hypertension and obesity who may be resistant to going totally raw. They won't be able to live in denial about their diet after reading it! Check out the good doctors' websites: www.treeoflife.nu and www.drfuhrman.com. Happy searching!

[ANIMLOVER]

Autumn I am not anti raw.
I wouldn't be taking the 30 day challenge if I was.
I am however posing valid questions.
One thing I've learned in life is to question EVERYTHING
I am not here to offend, confuse, or put down the raw life.
On the contrary, I am here to learn, educate and be educated.
If I wanted to be part of an anti-raw vegan forum I wouldn't be here!

[RawTruth]

Animlover, I'm not Autumn, and I really can't speak for her, so I won't but ... perhaps it wasn't you she was referring to! Perhaps it wasn't even one person. She did say "on this board" --

[Shona]

I hope my response to a poster wasn't misconstrued as anti-raw.

I find this discussion quite interesting and I've been following it since the first post. I personally follow a very low-fat diet because of a family history of poor circulation and peripheral artery disease. Many of my relatives have lost legs or feet and my father died of blood poisoning brought on by this disease.

Having said that, when I talk about eliminating oil and fat from my diet, I am refering to cooked oils and fats like margarine [both of which have been linked to many forms of cancer]. I am not referring to the fat naturally occuring in foods like avocados, olives, or nuts. Indeed, studies have shown that people who eat nuts on a regular basis are less likely to have a heart attack than people who don't eat nuts.

I am still in the experimental stages of a raw lifestyle, but I really appreciate the satiety that higher fat foods provide while I adjust to the lighter feeling of eating raw fruits, greens, and vegetables. And it's good to remember that although something might be higher in fat, because you are eating the whole food you are also getting vitamins, minerals, protein, and fiber, as well.

Shona :)

[VeganVixen]

Just wanted to add in that IM NOT anti-fat ,or even hinting that fats are bad !!! Im sorry if it has come across that way to ANYONE ,but honestly if you READ my posts ,I do mention that I am a special case ,and anyone not taking that in either wants to misconstrue my meanings (and play the blame game) or has a problem with fats all together ,and is using me for personal validation to get rid of them---Im NOT pointing any fingers ,but Ive said and done as much as I can..........

[chilove]

It is fascinating how everyone's body responds differently. I personally feel the best on a high fruit/high greens/very low fat raw diet. Too much fat (a whole avocado for example) leaves me incredibly sluggish and sleepy.

[tames]

The physician I mentioned about CHD is Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn. The video can be viewed from www.vegsource.com look along the right side.

[Autumn]

I want to clarify my previous posts on this thread.

I know that everyone is different, and I know that we all must feel free to ask questions regarding our health. I also realize that some people may do better on more fats, less fats, more sugar, less sugar, etc. It is up the individual to determine what ratio makes them feel the best. It is not something that can be dictated to another. THAT is why I was upset with this thread and a few others, which STATED, not *asked* that raw fats were bad. I will suggest again that my understanding of raw, based on Alissa's book, as well as those of many other authors, and the general "feel" of this site, is that raw is not to be obsessed over fat or sugar or protein intake. It is not about counting calories, fat grams, weight watcher points or any other diet-mentality related practice. It is *certainly* not about freaking out other people who are already battling food issues and fears.

I also think that part of being open-minded is to TRY raw before passing judgment, or relying on one "expert" opinion. By trying I mean for months, maybe even years, not day or weeks.

[Revvell]

I know that everyone is different, and I know that we all must feel free to ask questions regarding our health. I also realize that some people may do better on more fats, less fats, more sugar, less sugar, etc. It is up the individual to determine what ratio makes them feel the best. It is not something that can be dictated to another. THAT is why I was upset with this thread and a few others, which STATED, not *asked* that raw fats were bad. I will suggest again that my understanding of raw, based on Alissa's books, as well as those of many other authors, and the general "feel" of this site, is that raw is not to be obsessed over fat or sugar or protein intake. It is not about counting calories, fat grams, weight watcher points or any other diet-mentality related practice. It is *certainly* not about freaking out other people who are already battling food issues and fears.




What she (Autumn) said.

Revvell

[Pailani]

I also think that part of being open-minded is to TRY raw before passing judgment, or relying on one "expert" opinion. By trying I mean for months, maybe even years, not day or weeks.
That makes sense to me. To state outright that a raw vegan diet can't work and you'll have problems on it because of something you read about B12 or some other deficiency, can scare other new members unnecessarily. We really can't know if it will work for us until we try it for long enough to know. You can read a lot of information out there on both sides, and to decide, based on one set of naysayers, that it won't work for anybody isn't helpful.

[Ariannah]

This is an old thread but it was pointed to by a newer thread...

My approach to fats varies, and I think it all averages out in the end. When I first went raw I ate a ton of avocadoes and soaked almonds! I always had several organic avocadoes sitting on my windowsill, and constantly felt it for the right ripeness and went chow chow chow!!

Now my approach to fats is thus:

I rarely eat separated fats. It has to be attached to its originating food. Occasionally I'll indulge in a bit of pesto, but I'm so used to whole foods that it winds up being too rich for me.

Some days I don't feel like eating ANY obviously fatty food at all, it'll be apples, greens, dates, celery all day, and lots of water. This can carry itself on for several days.

Thus, when I want an avocado now, I'll just eat it and be done with it, because the times DO COME when I sincerely am turned off by the idea of eating one.

I'm learning which fatty foods don't agree with me. Cashews for instance, (which I hear are not a technically raw legume, anyway) simply don't want to nourish me in the slightest - I feel gassy and cooked and bloated after eating a handful - multiply that feeling if I eat it in a mixed food setting.

Consumption of fats eventually regulates itself, in my opinion after being all raw for a sustained period of time.

I must defend the poor avocado. It is a whole, highly nutritious food, and NOT just a junky fat source. It gets 75% of its calories from fat, but there is so much goodness in that incredible fruit that I am not going to freak out if I eat one.

[RawTruth]

I must defend the poor avocado. It is a whole, highly nutritious food, and NOT just a junky fat source. It gets 75% of its calories from fat, but there is so much goodness in that incredible fruit that I am not going to freak out if I eat one.I'll stand next to you in defense is anyone is attacking avocados! It amazes me to hear it denigrated and labeled as too "fat" when people eat saturated fats, processed foods, dairy, and other foods that contain truly bad fats. Avocados are natural, whole, wonderful sources of the fats our bodies do need and can use.

Also, I like how you've described your diet as evolving. When one is all raw and listens to his or her body, this is a typical and very natural sequence as the body detoxifies, cleanses, and changes.

[Jo-anne]

Autumn you may just have a point.......

[Crystal Rose]

My "2-cents worth":
Thank you, Cassie, for talking about the Lipase.
Thank you, Alissa, for your brilliant post.
And thanks, Diana, for the info from Rhio's book re: Cold Pressed

My thing is, there are so many "experts" in the raw food movement, and when it comes to some subject matters, there seems to be a lot of disagreement or controvery. That's where "listening" to our own unique bodies comes in. And, yes, your body needs to be cleansed for a bit before this is really possible. And, like Alissa says, your body will change -- what feels right for it now may not feel right for it at some future point.

I've been doing a lot of reading and research since turning raw, and, like I said, there are differing opinions within the raw food community about certain things. And, [sorry, not to "gush" (LOL), Alissa], but when I found Alissa's book and DVD and forum, I felt like she had the most SANE and realistic approach and had a way of putting things that made the most sense. To make this way of life (for me, not "diet") LIVEABLE is the key. If you're gonna be tempted to cheat here and there or trying to stick to something that's not realistic, then what's the point. Because it is actually more unhealthy to be raw and cheat once in a while than to just be 100% raw and eat "anything you want" (of course, "common sense" goes a long way!). And, again, everyone is VASTLY different, so some may be able to do 80% raw, but some of us have to do it 100% or it wouldn't work (all-or-nothing types of people).

Bottom line, RAW IS GOOD. But seriously, this is the best I've ever felt in my life, and I've never measured the percentage of fats I'm getting, but I'm sure it varies from day to day. I just try to balance the fats to fruits to veggies. And those days when something doesn't really agree with me, I take notice, and learn from it.

Yadda, yadda, yadda; anyway, thanks again, everyone for your posts, and thanks Alissa for stating it in such a clear manner.

Sincerely,
vicki

[ReneeSC]

Oh Yeah.. What Autumn and Vicki said...

I was SO upset several weeks back because of dissention amongst the ranks. I felt like my joy was being stollen; it actually had been, and I was rip-roaring angry about it. I didn't turn my household right-side-up to be told, "Okay, now that Alissa has fooled you into thinking this really was easy, let us now tell you the true truth! "

I just wanted to throw things!

Eat grains soaked and sprouted if you want to ( or can ). No! Wait a minute.. DON'T.
Eat fruits if you want to. No! Don't! It's sugar!
My myth is more substantiated than your myth.. ( growl )
Eat fats - they're necessary! No! Don't! You'll get fat.

Sheeeesh... give me a break already!

Just EAT, for Pete's Sake! You'll figure it out for yourself as you go along. If we were to listen to every voice on the wind, how could we hear the chirping of the joyful birds?

Stuff a sock in it!

[Rawkinlocs]

:D:D:D @ Renee!!!

exACTly! Say it again girlfriend! Getting intuned with one's body is the best thing we can do to avoid all the whooplah. As Alissa often says, just eat raw! Get that body cleaned out and then IT will tell you what it can and can't have or tolerate, etc.

[Raw_Medic]

Renee,

That's AWESOME! I'm gonna keep this in mind... It reminds me, in a more in your face kinda way (which I LOVE btw) of Paul Nison's quote (which is in my siggy)

Thanks!

Ursula

[Beanie]

I tried to eat 811....couldn't even do it for one day! I got SEVERLY hypoglycemic on it, was insatiably hungry all the time, had brain fog, was on the edge, couldn't think, and craved breads like crazy!! I was totally miserable, bloated, grumpy, and unsatisfied.

So I eat a moderate, 40% fat intake, maybe less, and eat some nuts/seeds/or greens with my fruits. I feel *much* better! If I had to follow his plan, I would quit NOW! I was restricting my fats, now I'm cold all the time and started to lose my hair. I'm much happier and peaceful/content eating fats and my concentration is much better. I'm much less anxious too. And I DON"T crave breads as much or desire cooked foods eating prepared meals. I LOVE Alissa's plan soooooo much better! I think I can live with this one.......just trying to get over the dying of hypothermia problems, then I can do a 30 day challenge.

If Grahams way is the only way, I'm eating cooked.

I just had a friend diagnosed with hypothroidism, losing her hair too, medically not doing well, and NOT losing weight all from Grahams plan!

[Revvell]

Ha!!! And you call me funny!!! This is hilarious and so absolutely true! ^5's ya.

Revvell ~ the uncertifiable one :D



Eat grains soaked and sprouted if you want to ( or can ). No! Wait a minute.. DON'T.
Eat fruits if you want to. No! Don't! It's sugar!
My myth is more substantiated than your myth.. ( growl )
Eat fats - they're necessary! No! Don't! You'll get fat.

Sheeeesh... give me a break already!

Just EAT, for Pete's Sake! You'll figure it out for yourself as you go along. If we were to listen to every voice on the wind, how could we hear the chirping of the joyful birds?

Stuff a sock in it!

[micki]

I am not a proponent of the 10% fat in the raw diet.
When I tried to eat that way and stay raw, it was nie impossible.
At this time my diet is around 30% fat. On an average 2000 calorie diet this is less than 70 grams daily which isn't that much.
This has been easy for me on a raw vegan diet, and adding that bit of fat helps me STAY raw.
I notice too that if I eat a little more fat one day, I'll naturally gravitate to eating a bit less fat the next day, and this without willpower or even conscious effort. It just seems to work out that way, and I'm trying to listen more to my body's needs, not my "cravings".

[twinee1]

I agree ..if I keep my fat at 10% my cals come in VERY LOW ! As it is adding 30 % fat is only 30 grams as I am not a big eater and consume 1000-1200 cals a day on average. (always been a low cal eater and at 44 I am healthy, muscular..no problems at this level) and according to fitday I ave about 30 fat /40 fiberous and fruit carbs/30 protein (plants, hemp, etc) ...that is the Zone, not intentionally following that but thats how I am naturally falling.

The above aside no one can convince me I should drop from 30 grams of fat a day to TEN !
:rolleyes:

[Gosia]

when I eat foods that I love, which is sweet, ripe fruit and tender greens, then low fat comes naturally. In my opinion, 811 is great when it happens spontaneously, not when one tries to achieve it. This trying factor is a very simple explanation of so many failures, when people try, but are not ready for something. Transition is a gradual process, both on mental and body level. For example, after years on cooked, our digestion is not so great, and it might take some time, before we are able to progress to a level, at which we can simply eat plenty of fruit and greens in the form of simple meals.

I started my raw diet with lots of fat, mainly in the form of nuts. Gradually, as my digestion improved, my eating patterns changed. Then, one day, I evaluated my food intake and discovered that the proportion of carbohydrates: protein: fat was approximately 8:1:1 (my eating pattern was: eating fruit all day and lots of greens in the evening). This does not mean that it is like this all the time, of course. But, what I am saying is that 811 is quite achievable, and 10% fat does not have to feel too low at all. It can happen totally spontaneously, and one can feel absolutely great on it. At the same time, I would totally hate it, if I told myself, say, in my first (or any) year of raw, that I have to do 811, because it is the perfect diet. Oh now, what a horrible way of doing the raw food diet! The transition process itself is hard enough (due to our well-established unhealthy eating patterns), without such restrictions.

If, a few years ago, someone told me that I could live on mostly fruit and greens, I would tell them that they are crazy! Now, look at me, I loooove fruit, I find then saciating and hydrating, and could not live without them. Now, it makes perfect sense to me why babies, even those unborn, have a well developed sweet taste, why all children have a natural desire for fruit (my own children are one example of that). We are buying our first house and are planning to plant .... fruit trees, of course, as many as we can fit on the 1100 m2 land, and greens. Interestingly, as far as the greens, I eat more of them than I ate when my diet was higher in fat. This is one misconception about the low fat diet, people assume that this diet is just the fruit, but the truth is that, due to low fat consumption, you can end up eating far more greens than on a higher in fat diet.

I believe that, regardless where you are in your raw food journey, it is better to enjoy the journey, and eat foods that you love, than to try to achieve some artificial goals. What you are ready for, will come anyway, so why struggle? Have fun, instead!

All the best,
Gosia.

[Revvell]

*points below* What she said.

R.



when I eat foods that I love, which is sweet, ripe fruit and tender greens, then low fat comes naturally. In my opinion, 811 is great when it happens spontaneously, not when one tries to achieve it. This trying factor is a very simple explanation of so many failures, when people try, but are not ready for something. Transition is a gradual process, both on mental and body level. For example, after years on cooked, our digestion is not so great, and it might take some time, before we are able to progress to a level, at which we can simply eat plenty of fruit and greens in the form of simple meals.

I started my raw diet with lots of fat, mainly in the form of nuts. Gradually, as my digestion improved, my eating patterns changed. Then, one day, I evaluated my food intake and discovered that the proportion of carbohydrates: protein: fat was approximately 8:1:1 (my eating pattern was: eating fruit all day and lots of greens in the evening). This does not mean that it is like this all the time, of course. But, what I am saying is that 811 is quite achievable, and 10% fat does not have to feel too low at all. It can happen totally spontaneously, and one can feel absolutely great on it. At the same time, I would totally hate it, if I told myself, say, in my first (or any) year of raw, that I have to do 811, because it is the perfect diet. Oh now, what a horrible way of doing the raw food diet! The transition process itself is hard enough (due to our well-established unhealthy eating patterns), without such restrictions.

If, a few years ago, someone told me that I could live on mostly fruit and greens, I would tell them that they are crazy! Now, look at me, I loooove fruit, I find then saciating and hydrating, and could not live without them. Now, it makes perfect sense to me why babies, even those unborn, have a well developed sweet taste, why all children have a natural desire for fruit (my own children are one example of that). We are buying our first house and are planning to plant .... fruit trees, of course, as many as we can fit on the 1100 m2 land, and greens. Interestingly, as far as the greens, I eat more of them than I ate when my diet was higher in fat. This is one misconception about the low fat diet, people assume that this diet is just the fruit, but the truth is that, due to low fat consumption, you can end up eating far more greens than on a higher in fat diet.

I believe that, regardless where you are in your raw food journey, it is better to enjoy the journey, and eat foods that you love, than to try to achieve some artificial goals. What you are ready for, will come anyway, so why struggle? Have fun, instead!

All the best,
Gosia.

[Jo-anne]

*points up*.....what they said

[LNdolls]

Getting intuned with one's body is the best thing we can do to avoid all the whooplah. As Alissa often says, just eat raw! Get that body cleaned out and then IT will tell you what it can and can't have or tolerate, etc.


This makes the very best sense to me... The body knows. We know, no one else needs to tell us.. And it sounds like you, Gosia are doing it.
Very encouraging.
Best,
LN

[littleangelbear]

This is an interesting thread. It has given me a lot to consider. I am new raw person :)

One thing I love about Alissa's cookbook is that there is no nutritional information. But, when you look at the ingredients, they are so healthy, so my brain registered this when reading through or watching her DVD's--not the calories, fat, etc., etc.

I have noticed that when I eat the healthier fats such as avocadoes, nuts, healthy oils, etc., that I actually lose weight--Well, I should say it appears that I do because I don't weigh myself on a scale...I go by how my clothing fits. I also notice that I have much better hormonal balance in my body (so much less menstrual cramps, etc.). I also notice my joints feel great, even in a Michigan autumn right now :)

I am an athlete (bike racer) and right now, it's my off-season. Usually, I get so many cravings for things in the cooler weather, but I notice eating some of the healthy fats has totally eliminated any cravings for more 'dense' food.

I'm not a very scientific gal, but I have been noting these things in my private food journal...wow!

Bear hugs to all,
Lisa

[Sweet lips]

I am pointing at all the Good stuff here and the good people! who realize that it is an indivdual thing and it is just okay to be okay way with the way we do stuff - different or not! Now, off to watch my additiction to a certain show, that I simply refuse to give up on>

[sweetgoddess]

I believe that, regardless where you are in your raw food journey, it is better to enjoy the journey, and eat foods that you love, than to try to achieve some artificial goals. What you are ready for, will come anyway, so why struggle? Have fun, instead!Gosia that is brilliant. I absolutely love what you said :)

[Queenie]

I think it depends on the person. I've always been thin. 5'10" and 144 LBS; I've lost 10 pounds since going 95% raw, so I'm still reasonably healthy looking but very slim. I actually add EFAs to my green drink at night to try to pack on a few extra calories. The raw diet is very low calorie! So I'm afraid that if I cut my fat intake I would waste away. Fear is a terrible motivation, but my chiropractor actually commented on my dropped weight. (He was on a raw diet for four months and lost so much weight he went back to SAD. I told him he didn't give himself long enough for the cells to rebuild.)

My metabolism burns like crazy. I have always been a hungry chile. On SAD, at least I felt full after a meal. Now I feel much better after eating, and eating is a much more meditative, joyous experience, but I rarely feel full. I have no idea what percent fat I'm eating, but I think it is more than 10% and the right amount for me.

Thanks for bringing up this interesting topic.

[misslinda]

Hi Animlover,
Sure its nice to get other view points, (as long as they are raw ;)) for this board as it is a raw food support board but there certainly is a lot of different ways to do raw. I think its good that you know that for yourself if you ‘listen to your body’ you will eat too many nuts and too much fat. If you know you don’t feel well with that much fat then certainly its good to eat less of it. That’s great your figuring that out. It really is a learning process. That’s the thing, A lot of people think they can do raw for a couple o f weeks and figure out the perfect diet. There is NO prefect diet. And let me want you ahead of time… even when you think you have it figured out and have been eating raw for years and you feel you found the perfect way for you to eat… it will change! Think about it, we are always changing as human beings so of course our diet wouldn’t stay the same as a few years before when we were in a different location, environment, doing different things, working out differently, In a different emotional state, etc… its ever changing .

DonÂ’t try to pin this diet down, it will never be perfect, just like us! LOL!

Ok, so first, I personally don’t believe that ‘fat is fat’. If that were true people would not be dying of excess meet consumption and healing themselves from a high fat raw diet. Ive just seen both too many times. Of course there is always the person who is gorging themselves and eating 20 cups of nuts a day, etc.. and obviously that’s not the healthiest diet either. Excessive amounts of one particular thing is not good for anyone, raw or not and there are always those that go to the extreme.

Animlover, I really never never never tell people what percentage of fat or anything else they should have. I have obviously got pretty good at looking at a few days worth of peoples food intake and knowing what needs to be cut out, added, or changed. Most of it is because I have been doing this for so long but some is intuitive also as you need to take into consideration the persons mental state as well. I strongly believe that. Its really not just about the food. But that is another issue that we can discuss but lets stick to this first.

You asked in the above post: “What fat % do you suggest for weight loss with energy?
Please don't say listen to your body CUZ I LOVE FAT - nuts, seeds...YUMMY!”


See this is the problem. Of course you cant listen to your body because unless your starting with a clean slate your body doesn’t know exactly what it needs. How can it tell when its still getting cooked, (I don’t know if your 100% raw or not) or too much of the wrong foods and is off balance. This is why I tell people to go 100% raw, totally vegan raw. Raw raw raw, no exceptions for a month or two or more because only then, I believe is when you can really start to listen to your body for signals. But here is also the thing. Even then, how do you know those signals are coming from the emotional or physical? It takes time to really get this. Not days or weeks or even months for some people. This is why I say to people, ‘go raw, don’t worry about the amounts of things, let your body heal and cleanse and when its ready you will naturally start to crave what you need and what is right.’
Otherwise people after weeks, months, etcÂ…start adjusting or listening to other people and saying, ok maybe thatÂ’s my problem, and start cutting back and cutting out and adding weird things and then saying, this doesnÂ’t work and this and that is not doing it for me. Like I always say, donÂ’t expect to be cooked for 30-40-50 years and then after a month to have it perfected with the raw diet. It takes time really it does.

You also asked:
‘How long does a person have to wait to not crave the need for fat sources?’
LOL, wouldnÂ’t it be wonderful if I could answer that one! Who knows?! Anyone who tells you an exact amount of time it takes is lying. And you will always crave fat sources if your not eating enough of them. At first you will crave more on raw, avocados, nuts, etc.. because your body is adjusting to a new way of eating. Your body is using these fats much more efficiently and quickly then cooked fats so you need more at first since your body is not used to the clean fuel its getting. It will subside, but give it time. I can promise you this. If you do 10% fat you will be craving fat more often then not. Maybe not at first, maybe not in the middle, but at different times. Why not just eat raw and let your body adjust. You wont be eating tons of nuts and loads of fat for very long. YouÂ’ll get sick of it. Your body is craving it for a reason. Maybe it needs the good healthy fats and maybe you shouldnÂ’t deny it that.
Also, I would eat more avocados and fatty fruits and vegetable instead of tons of nuts as you wont feel great after eating that many nuts. But again, you need to step back and let it take its course, I just feel an urgency to get it right. Raw food will never work if you need to be perfect with your diet. Its not set up that way. If youÂ’re a calorie counter, fat watcher, carb and protein analyzer (not saying you are) then this isnÂ’t the diet for you.

This diet is so beautiful and feeing. Let it be that. WhatÂ’s the point if your going to do it the same way you did cooked?



IF you've never read this thread or read this particualr post, I WOULD HIGHLY SUGGESt DOING SO. :)

[Alissa]

bump........

[Lunar*Fey]

Wow, I just read this entire thread. I think it's so wonderful and amazing how people who have been eating raw for a while can truly listen to their bodies and just know what it needs. a while back I used to restrict myself from eating too much fat because I thought was unhealthy. In a way, I think this was my bodies way of getting me to where I am now. Growing up I ate lots of ice cream and lots of nasty SAD foods. Sure, I always loved my fruits and veggies, but I did have ice cream almost daily...not to mention tonnss of other crap. Anyway, even eating like that I was one of the thinner people in my grade. When I was 5'3 I weighed 95 pounds. Now I am 5'4 and well I've lost a lot of weight because of my previous eating problems but have been starting to gain. Any way, I'm getting off topic...I just wanted to say that i think the raw way of life is so beautiful, the way it looks at eating has really helped liberate me from restrictive habits. I think you are all amazing and your opinions are extremely valuable to me. Thank you for helping me so much :).

Also, I was wondering...is saturated fat from raw fat sources just as bad as cooked? Is there any difference? Should people eating raw still be concious about the amount of saturated fat? Just curious as to the difference, if there is any, and any other information you have on it. I'm not trying to suggest people should count or worry about it, because not doing so is part of what makes this way of life so beautiful and liberating...but I just want all the information and to learn because that's what helps to provide that liberation. thank you again :)

[RawTruth]

Also, I was wondering...is saturated fat from raw fat sources just as bad as cooked? Is there any difference? Should people eating raw still be concious about the amount of saturated fat? Just curious as to the difference, if there is any, and any other information you have on it. ILF - Good news!

Fat from plant sources is ALL healthy.

Nothing to be concerned about.

[swiss_miss]

So is Dr. Graham totally off his rocker with this statement?

From his website http://www.doctorgraham.cc/

Why shouldn't I eat all the avocados, nuts, and seeds I want?

Avocados, nuts and seeds are extremely high in fat content. When it comes to fat, it doesnt matter so much its origin; fat is fat. Fat goes from the lymph system directly into the blood. Too much fat will thicken the blood, causing the red blood cells to clump together so they cannot deliver oxygen to the cells. Excess fat also blocks the action of insulin in bringing sugars to the cells, which leads to diabetes. It is better to eat small amounts of avocados, nuts and seeds, and not to eat them daily. There is more than adequate fat for the body from fruits, vegetables and leafy greens.

I dont agree with everythingthing he says, but I think he's right with this one. Raw fat is of course healthier than cooked fat but it is still fat. Personally I dont think a high fat intake is healthy. Some fat is necessary but I think it does more harm than good when eaten excessively.

[eatyourbroccoli]

that too much of anything is going to be detrimental to your health.

i mean..even too much water can kill ya.

but veggie fat is good for you.

just balance it out in whatever way works for you. disregard tracking and counting and just make sure its raw.

remember: its not the 80s anymore. fat doesnt make you fat. :rolleyes:

be well

ash

[swiss_miss]

There is nothing wrong with keeping track of what one eats. Tracking and counting may help those who are having trouble balancing things out. There is a big difference between being obsessive and being sensible. Tracking and counting, if done responsibly, can be a huge help to some people, myself included.

[Lunar*Fey]

LF - Good news!

Fat from plant sources is ALL healthy.

Nothing to be concerned about.

thank you. It's hard for me to listen to my body right now. I can't really tell what I need from it because I am constantly being told what's right and wrong for me and it's all so confusing. I wish I could just listen to my body, but I don't know what it needs right now. Like today, I've been craving bananas all day. I had three already and could go for another right now. Then again, yesterday I had diahrea all day and vomiting which probably lowered my electrolytes and potassium emensely...so maybe n some ways I can listen to my body. But I don't know! My body used to be starving, lately I've changed that according to my doctor and urine tests and the way I feel about food now. Since I'm gaining weight and need TONS of calories (like 3500 and increasing) does this mean I should add more fats? Sorry if this is bothersome...I'm just so confused and when I ask for help people just say I shouldn't care but then how do they expect me to gain the weight if I don't care!? Sorry I'm just so frustrated and confused and I just want to break down....ehhh...

[sweetgoddess]

Lunar*Fey, you will be confused if you take in everyone elses opinion. Find out who's experience you trust and feel resonates with you and then give it a complete go. Then you will have the ultimate truth - your own personal experience, to rely on. No one person holds the truth for you - except you, and that is gained through experience. So eat another banana if you are craving one! See how you feel afterwards. That will be the truth.

Alissa says to eat whatever you would like as long as it is raw inclusing raw fat. So that you can get your body going, so that you can get through the changes in habit and lifestyle, so that you can begin to detox and then, you can begin hearing your body.

It almost sounds form your post that your body is speaking, but you are not trusting it. I would. Certainly I would trust it over our opinions, since we do not have your body!! Give it all a complete go without too much mentalizing and be observant of how you feel. That will get you there.

My brightest wishes to you and to the delight of your journey
Warmly~
Carmel

[Lunar*Fey]

Sweetgoddess~ Thank you so much! That was inspiring and helpful. :)

this forum is full of inspiration, I don't think I could possibly be this happy right now with all the things going on and coming up in my life right now without you guys. thank you so much :)

[Boz]

Thanks for bumping this....it answered alot of the questions I wanted to ask
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D