David Wolfe admits to eating ants . Lol. [Archive]

Riiiya

08-08-2008, 01:16 PM

i watched him live at 5 and it was fantastic- inspiration was over the top! He's like a walking encyclopedia for me. I learned some great new things

I wouldn't mind eating an ant or two myself, maybe not purposefully but the idea doesn't disgust me or anything. I like him- his knowledge expands, opinions change- he might have been straight vegan at some point, now considers ants to be worth adding to his diet so be it. :D Why stop "evolving" because of some label you identified yourself with in the past, nobody is static :)

lol i can imagine anwering someone's question one day "are you vegan"? NO I EAT ANTS IN MY YARD :D

jenjen

08-08-2008, 01:29 PM

he doesn't pick them off the ground and eat them, he's talking about alowing small insects that might still be on the leaves of plants in his garden to be eaten.

this is the way it would be in nature.

if you live like that, you might not have to take b12 supplements

fuggles

08-08-2008, 01:34 PM

Exactly. And some people would call him a vegetarian anyway considering the bee products he eats and promotes.

Its constantly changing, its not a fixed way of life yet, its still evolving with new ideas and new foods being discovered and new ways to get b12.

Bananna

08-08-2008, 06:55 PM

I actually think ants are very interesting to watch.

And the big ones have faces and personalities.

Riiiya

08-09-2008, 08:48 AM

I actually think ants are very interesting to watch.

And the big ones have faces and personalities.

hehe i once dropped a soaked walnut on the ground ..and the next day was suntanning and noticed that it had ants on it.. i laid on the ground to watch them closely- it was amazing!!! they were all marching to it, picking up a piece and then returning to their..colony or whatever it was... somewhere between the cracks in the ground.. i was so glad my almond didn't go to waste :D

Aleesha Sattva

08-09-2008, 10:02 AM

hehe i once dropped a soaked walnut on the ground ..and the next day was suntanning and noticed that it had ants on it.. i laid on the ground to watch them closely- it was amazing!!! they were all marching to it, picking up a piece and then returning to their..colony or whatever it was... somewhere between the cracks in the ground.. i was so glad my almond didn't go to waste :D

*giggling* so what was it? an almond or walnut? *just teasing ya*

I believe all the "in the limelight" raw foodists have something to share. I would hope that no one follows one to the letter... come on, they are human just like we are. They poop in the morning, fart in the afternoon and blow their nose! Nothing supernatural about them... no pedestal needed... they are people just like you who happen to care deeply about sharing this lifestyle with others and are very vocal about it.

It saddens me when I see people pick them apart... like they should be "better than" or "more than" --- they are simply spiritual beings having a human experience... just like you and I.

So next time you see David Wolfe or Matt Monarch, or Victoria Boutenko or Alissa etc... just remember... take what resonates with you and leave the rest. Cause does it really matter what words he uses to define his lifestyle? Isn't the message in his lifestyle?

I often read posts/threads on this forum how someone feels badly because of the way others around them judge them for being raw. Others are asking what to 'label' themselves so as to not bring on too much criticism and then... on the same forum I find people criticizing others within our own lifestyle LOL

(((hugs))) Let's find the light within David instead of looking for the shadows.

loving you all,
Aleesha

Aleesha Sattva

08-09-2008, 10:28 AM

Just watching this excellent video. Wow he sure is an excellent speaker and so knowledgeable. I'm going to try some cocao when I'm off my fast.

I love how real he is... I do I do I do.

And when he's talking about eating ants... he says ants get into the fruit of the cactus and he doesn't worry about it. He just eats it. Then he goes on to share how you shouldn't wash anything from your garden... and sometimes you'll eat a bug or two... don't worry about it, gives you B12.

"You cannot heal yourself by being miserable... so have fun" What a great thing for him to share with us. looooooooooooooooooooooving this video!

:D happy day everyone
Aleesha

coco

08-09-2008, 11:29 AM

rawstrength

08-09-2008, 12:51 PM

coco - I'm sorry that you feel so disilussioned after meeting David Wolfe. I have never met him, but I find his you tube videos and book Eating for Beauty very inspirational. Some of his ideas seem a little wacky (to me), but overall he seems to know his stuff and I think he has a great attitude towards food, eating and life. When did you get to meet Dr. Wolfe and why did you dislike him?

Back to the subject at hand - I don't think I could ever intentionally eat any kind of insect, but I get where David Wolfe is coming from. We all swallow tons of bugs per year unintentionally while we eat and sleep. It's a part of life that we all just have to either accept or choose not to think about.

iamacranberry

08-09-2008, 06:45 PM

Weird or not, and vegan or not, one theory as to why primates who are primarily vegan aren't b12 deficient is due to their rare consumption of insects. Eating ants from time to time might solve the problem in humans, too.

coco

08-09-2008, 11:55 PM

When did you get to meet Dr. Wolfe and why did you dislike him?

he's not a doctor. i am hoping you just assumed that and he isn't telling people that he is one now.

i worked at NFL and lived in close contact with them for a time. i certainly didn't form that opinion after a brief meeting! he really isn't like what he professes to be. but he is a GREAT talker, he could sell ice to the inuit, i swear.
i will say this though, many people have been inspired by him to start on their raw journey and that's terrific. his books and lectures, while inaccurate a lot of the time (he has very little actual science to back up his claims) are vibrant and catchy and many people take get interested in raw for the first time after hearing him speak or reading something of his and that's a good thing.
it is foolish though to follow anyone without question, no matter how dynamic they may be. i have met lots of the big names in raw and they all have pearls of wisdom to offer but not one of them has all the answers for everyone. "take the wheat and leave the shaft" as my mama always says. or in our case take the peach and leave the pit! you gotta do your own research, that's the only way. and my research says No Ants!

Inca_faerie

08-10-2008, 03:43 AM

he's not very terrific in real life, i gotta say. not all the glitters is gold you know. i was seriously underwhelmed after getting to know that guy. he's great at talking though, very gifted.

that's besides the point though, those poor little gorgeous ants! i would never eat them, what did they ever do to me to deserve such a fate! *sad*

lolol:D coco do you realize that you've probably killed hundreds of ants simply by walking on the ground??

Also, do you have any examples of David Wolfe being "inaccurate"?

I personally love him to bits he is a constant source of inspiration to me and I'm very thankful for his existance:)

iamacranberry

08-10-2008, 04:28 AM

I'll personally back up coco that David Wolfe has been unscientific right and left. His accredited degrees are in engineering, not nutrition. On his website he self-proclaims that he is one of the world's leading experts in nutrition, but he offers nothing to back up this claim. I've not listened to David Wolfe in a long time because of how irritatingly unscientific and inaccurate he is, so I couldn't necessarily give any specific examples.

I just watched a Youtube video of a speech in attempt to draw out a few, though...for one, he claims that "food, communication, and relationships" are the determining factors of health. While both are important, they are not the end-all determiner. Exercise is important, and genetics have an effect.

He is also quite overenthusiastic about cacao, which even though it has a high antioxidant content has disputed benefits due to its side effects, which many experience....but that he denies.

"If you think the universe is made out of mathematical equations, you might be FOOLED, and go the AMA route..." Not necessarily. There is a lot of bad science out there, but shame on the son of two medical doctors for not being able to differentiate between poorly conducted medical research and pharmaceutical corruption and science as a whole.

"Distilled water is corrupted water." This is obviously bullshit. He recommends "cold spring water," which he even claims is magical. And water nebulizers. Unnecessary, untested, unscientific. He talks about "fructogens" becoming available, but this is a fabricated term. He talks about consciousness in water. Again, unscientific, untested, and unreliable.

And I found all of those only after listening to him speak on Youtube for a few minutes. I'm going to go clean out my ears now.

Bananna

08-10-2008, 09:37 AM

Yes, I noticed those fault lines as well...you forgot that bug zapper thing he recommends, lol.
That being said, I do like his delivery...

I heard once that somewhere, probably India or something, that people carry brooms with them when they walk to sweep ants out of the way so they don't kill them. I am always sparing ants as I walk down the street....but I'm sure I kill just as many.

If you accidently stepped on an ant, and it's reeling in pain, would you euthanize it?

....and yes I am taking the saving of ants conversation to whole new levels...lol.

But while I'm going there...what if you had a whole ant infestation in your kitchen/house? I read somewhere once that they won't cross a line of sprinkled cayenne....but I don't know how practical that is if they are living in your walls or whatever.
I ask, because in the past, as much as I loved watching my ants, I had to poison them. They were taking over....I did feel bad though.

Aleesha Sattva

08-10-2008, 09:47 AM

I think this is a great conversation. It's soooo important to "take what you like and leave the rest" of what ANYONE says... doesn't matter who it is. Cause honestly NO ONE has all the answers for YOUR path... you are the only one who hopefully will find many of them before you die.

I do have something to say about water though. Any of you read or watched Dr. Emoto's work (https://www.hado.net/)? Truly inspirational and amazing.

:D
Aleesha

Riiiya

08-10-2008, 09:54 AM

consciousness in water is something i truly don't dismiss actually. well this might be too much for someone but i do know about russian experiments on water- it changing its electical charge depending on the emotional environment, it's fascinating.

btw i don't really assume Wolfe's ideas are all scientifically valid. I usually don't await "proof" from science- some things just resonate with me deep inside :p

*crazy this morning..yes lol i just woke up*

coco

08-10-2008, 09:59 AM

for me there is a big huge difference between my actions inadvertantly destroying life (stepping on bugs, etc) and taking it on purpose. this is fundamental to my beliefs and, i think, to vegan principles in general. where i can make a difference, i do. all life deserves to be honoured. that said, i will kill a bug that is biting my one of my children, they come first and they are very sensitive to bug bites.
so, i am not fanatical about it but again, where i can make a difference, i do.

DW is a dynamic speaker and has many fans and followers but he contradicts himself over and over again, look at any revision of his books and you will find him recanting all the time. this isn't a terrible thing, it's very wise to change your story when new info comes along to make your stance obsolete. it's just that he professes to know Everything and it's his way as the best way when that is not neccessarily true. especially when he vacillates on major issues all the time. he and thor used to make a big deal about how human are not "dirt" eaters but then they started selling a version of the very same soil born micro-organism they were trash talking. when it makes a profit for them all of a sudden it's a good thing. this happens over and over with that company.
here are two examples of behavior that is not in line with his public image.
one: nature's first law was published as though is was his own work when in fact a majority of the book was taken directly from the work of another author who was never given any acknowledgement or any financial compensation for having his work republished as another book. you can look this up, there is lots of info out there about it.
two: though david makes a big deal about relationships and the state of ones mind and behavior on one's health, when i worked with NFL there was a picture of a man who david did not like posted on the wall and the staff was encouraged to throw darts at his face. this is not the behavior of a peaceful, loving person and really turned me off.
there are many other examples i could use, believe me. his behavior was not that of the man he professes to be. i have a hard time thinking of him as anything other than a profiteering faker.

Lelê

08-10-2008, 10:58 AM

Dr. Emoto's work is pretty incredible. My brother (who's not a believer in anything), sent me a link of his work because he was so impressed by it .

As for Wolfe.... I'm new to raw, so I know very little about him. Just saw the videos on YT. I do believe he has great points and may be right about many things. My personal impression of him (which doesn't really matter in the big picture), is that I never know if he really knows *everything* he's talking about or he's just thinks really highly of himself and his personal beliefs.

Unfortunately, the only difference between amazing discoveries and being a bit delusional are scientific evidences. I don't know enough about him nor his work and studies to see exactly where he stands on this matter.

As for being great at speaking, I agree that he's secure of what he says and has a certain charisma. Again, for me, personally, almost threw me off at trying raw. Same with Juliano. Extremist people kinda throw me off, but, as I said, this is personal, because it clashes with the way I see life in general.

I was not even vegan (or vegetarian, for that matter) before I started raw, so when I started reading, people like Alissa made it much more accessible, possible and believable for me. Those people are spoke people for something that is a RADICAL change from the SAD. They have to understand how hard it is the change and specially, how hard it is to make people change their (hundreds? thousands? years old) way of thinking. If you are telling people that all they ever ate (even what they thought it was healthy) is poison and they should never touch it again with a 10 ft. pole, you should, at least, be careful in how you deliver, so you don't drive people away, kwim?

Sorry...I'm rambling here now... :o I need some serious sleep. :(

Aleesha Sattva

08-10-2008, 11:18 AM

coco thanks for sharing. i haven't read any of david's books... and have only seen that one video in this thread. i loved what i saw though... someone who was passionate about his lifestyle.

i have heard many good and bad things about him... but i tend to just look at what is in front of me in that moment and make a decision about that. so... in this moment, (may change tomorrow LOL) i like what i saw.

i would also like to add... i love what i saw in alissa's dvd... now that is some passion!!!

iamacranberry

08-10-2008, 11:25 AM

"I heard once that somewhere, probably India or something, that people carry brooms with them when they walk to sweep ants out of the way so they don't kill them. I am always sparing ants as I walk down the street....but I'm sure I kill just as many."

Jains. There aren't many of them, but they do that.

"I usually don't await "proof" from science- some things just resonate with me deep inside"

Basing beliefs on non-logical reasons is a good way to develop beliefs in things that are completely untrue. If something "resonates" with you, perhaps it's better to instead consider the possibility that it MAY be true--but certainly unwise to assume that it definitely is.

"though david makes a big deal about relationships and the state of ones mind and behavior on one's health, when i worked with NFL there was a picture of a man who david did not like posted on the wall and the staff was encouraged to throw darts at his face. this is not the behavior of a peaceful, loving person and really turned me off."

Doesn't surprise me...good to know though.

Re: Emoto's work, I've seen it, and I have no reason to believe that it is valid. For one, he has failed to sufficiently objectify his experiments and his results, and two, there are plenty of other scientists who have done similar things and NOT gotten his results. Three, his results are not validated by peer review and subsequent experiments. Also, all water crystals are hexagonal. This is why all snowflakes have six sides. There is nothing special about this; it happens every time water freezes.

Bananna

08-10-2008, 11:57 AM

iamacranberry - thanks for the Jains info....and once again I am just glad you are able to express and exemplify the necessity for critical thinking....Such a valuable and neglected tool.

coco

08-10-2008, 01:36 PM

aleesha that is a GREAT attitude to have towards any expert. take what you need and leave the rest behind. unfortunately the raw community seems to get divided up into camps for or against the raw celebrities instead of for or against the ideas. when people start to believe everything they hear because of who is saying it instead of what is being said is where the trouble begins.

iamcranberry, i've heard that about those water expereiments before. i find the whole thing interesting and nothing more. it got us to put stickers of fun words on our water container and to appreciate water as a health giving part of our lives at least and that's alright. cute anyhow.

Aleesha Sattva

08-10-2008, 06:49 PM

Basing beliefs on non-logical reasons is a good way to develop beliefs in things that are completely untrue. If something "resonates" with you, perhaps it's better to instead consider the possibility that it MAY be true--but certainly unwise to assume that it definitely is.

Re: Emoto's work, I've seen it, and I have no reason to believe that it is valid. For one, he has failed to sufficiently objectify his experiments and his results, and two, there are plenty of other scientists who have done similar things and NOT gotten his results. Three, his results are not validated by peer review and subsequent experiments. Also, all water crystals are hexagonal. This is why all snowflakes have six sides. There is nothing special about this; it happens every time water freezes.

Ah I disagree with you. Following what resonates with me and what doesn't is how I live my life. I don't need a scientist to verify what my body tells me. Although, if you are not connected to your intuition and your body... I can see where you would need someone else to verify your beliefs/feelings.

As for Dr. Emoto's work... you can leave it... I'll happily take it though. Watching his DVD and the crystals changing when negative words were spoken and directed at them... was huge. Also his group of volunteers healing the lake by sending it love... speaks volumes in my world.

Just because someone else hasn't had success with something, doesn't negate in to me. I can't tell you how many people have told me that eating raw is wrong... I don't listen to them either (((hugs)))

coco

08-10-2008, 07:44 PM

Although, if you are not connected to your intuition and your body... I can see where you would need someone else to verify your beliefs/feelings.

that seems pretty passive aggressive to me. surely we can allow eachother's views without that kind of statement.

RawHeaven

08-10-2008, 08:11 PM

I think we could learn a thing or two from the ants.

What kind of ant would David Wolfe be or you or I?

Who are we and what makes our (raw * vegan * vegetarian) way better or worse than his and vice versa? What are we really discussing - is it about the ants or our core beliefs?

I just thought it was interesting when I googled ant colony and up popped this info...just food for thought. (pun intended)

http://www.antcolonies.net/

"Organized society, whether among insects or men, implies some form of government; and that implies citizenship.

And fidelity to the just and natural service of citizens is communal righteousness. May we apply such a term to insects?

And if so, what is the character of such a quality; or, if one may venture so to put it, what is the duality of such a character? And is it in any measure comparable with communal righteousness as the phrase goes amoung men? The inquiry will here be limited to ants; but the study requires the statement of some preliminary facts, so that readers may have a true conception of the field which our thoughts are to explore.

Some insects are "solitary"; they live alone. Others are "social"; they live in communities. There is such a striking contrast between the manners of the two groups that one wonders how the distinction arose. True, at the beginning of life most insects are massed, since their mothers lay their eggs in compact clusters. But if one start with the theory that this may have left in the germ of being a tendency which, under favorable conditions might be transferred to the adult, he is met by certain facts that may confound his reasoning.
.... "

Lelê

08-10-2008, 08:27 PM

I just thought it was interesting when I googled ant colony and up popped this info...just food for thought. (pun intended)

http://www.antcolonies.net/

RawHaven, that site is awesome!! I've been sitting here reading about how they communicate, among other things.....pretty interesting info.

I don't think I'll be killing any more ants on my counter... :o ;)

Bananna

08-11-2008, 08:25 AM

um....they Will take over your entire house if you let them. But I love them too, I am truly torn. On the one hand they are my pets....on the other....I have to poison them because I can't actually face killing them directly.

coco

08-11-2008, 09:36 AM

there are lots of ways to discourage them from coming inside. here are a few sites...

http://www.gomestic.com/Gardening/Six-Natural-Ant-Repellants.38570

http://www.stretcher.com/stories/980528a.cfm

http://eartheasy.com/live_natpest_control.htm

Riiiya

08-11-2008, 09:53 AM

MrsJohnnyG

08-11-2008, 10:14 AM

Coco, thank you for sharing what you have about Mr. Wolfe. I had already had a "take what resonates with me or that has been objectively verified" approach with him and other raw celebrities, but I must say I'm disappointed to learn what I've found out after you posted about him (for instance: http://www.raw4life.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55&Itemid=81 ).

As for killing or eating ants etc., for me it all comes down to intent.

Smashing an ant just for the heck of it (or worse, torturing it, as I've unfortunately seen happen) is NOT okay.

Having to kill some in order to protect your home or children is quite another. Or unknowingly stepping on or eating one in fruit. Your intent is not to harm, but to protect and survive.

If you look at animals in the wild, their behavior can seem horribly cruel to us. Once I saw footage of a pack of lions attacking a poor beautiful animal and it devastated me. But, the lions were doing what they did to survive... they had to eat just as every other creature does. They did not have the intent to torture just for "fun." It's hard to condemn someone for accidentally harming an insect when nature itself shows us that there can't be a perfect peace-filled, death-free existence anywhere. So I do have to agree with Mr. Wolfe on that point, at least, that inadvertently swallowing an ant or two with food is nothing to beat yourself up over.

Riiiya

08-11-2008, 10:23 AM

MrsJohnnyG, thanks for that link. definitely makes me think about all this twice..

Care4raw

08-11-2008, 10:25 AM

I once had a crazy infestation of ants. I have read this thread so quickly, did i see that Banana you have one?

This is the story of how I got rid of mine;

I had read a lot about the Findhorn Community in Scotland who would communicate alot with plant and animal divas. It would require a meditation and ask to meet the ant diva in this case ( an energy that represents that domain). I very casually decided to try it and voila i quickly connected with an "Ant Energy' for want of a better description. I asked them to leave and what they required to do that. They/it asked for a saucer of honey to be placed by a tree in my yard.

I think i did it on a Friday. At that point i was pretty down because there was a black wall of them now in my kitchen. It was crazy.I never wanted to kill them before.

I left my kitchen window open,put the honey saucer out and left for the weekend. Sunday night my husband and I stood at that wall, I can still remember it ,both in utter disbelief. They were finally gone! We followed the trail and sure enough they were at (and most dead by the way)the saucer. We could actually see the trail of them to the tree from the kitchen window.

Wild. Not sure what we tapped into. I do time to time try to contact 'nature' divas but sometimes my logic blocks it. I think this was truly 'beginners luck', or 'Grace' perhaps..

Riiiya

08-11-2008, 10:45 AM

Wild. Not sure what we tapped into.

That's a great way to "describe" it :)

Great wonderful story- thanks for sharing it!!!

coco

08-11-2008, 12:48 PM

that's a pretty cool story about those ants, wow.

yeah MrsJohnnyG, for many editions of that book there was no acknowledgment. they wouldn't even talk about it when asked, it was a totally forbidden subject until enough people in the community found out about it and it became impossible to sweep under the rug any longer. sad, but very enlightening.

jenjen

08-11-2008, 02:44 PM

Eva

08-11-2008, 03:24 PM

Very interesting information in this thread. That's all I should say. I try not to step on toes. Or bugs. :p

MrsJohnnyG

08-11-2008, 03:37 PM

for all those who think that eating the occasional insect is "taking life" or "killing" may i ask....
just what do you think you are doing to the lives of all those plants you are eating? poor little carrots being ripped out of there happy dirt home!
Wow, you've just convinced me I need to eat NO living things whatsoever. From now on, it's only chemicals and synthetic food for me!!! I may get fat and die of cancer and have horrible quality of life, but doggone it, no carrots will be harmed in the making of this diet!! :D

Inca_faerie

08-11-2008, 05:55 PM

MrsJohnnyG, I think the point jenjen was trying to make was that if you see squashing a bug on your counter as "killing" and not feel the same way about eating a carrot or anything else that has "life" energy, then that viewpoint seems a bit hypocritical.

If I see a cockroach scutteling across the floor (I've never actually seen one) but if I did that sucker would get broomed in a nanosecond. If you step on or accidentaly eat a few bugs, or dispose of them if they have invaded your home, what on earth is the big deal??:confused: (although if I see bugs outside, I will happily leave them alone as they have every right to be there as much as I do, but if they're in my house, well then it's kind of a "enter at your own risk" situation. it's all part of life and not something to make such a knicker twisting fuss about.;)...just my two cents.

Aleesha Sattva

08-11-2008, 06:01 PM

i think the big grin at the end of her post meant she was joking around inca.

:D

ShantiDass

08-11-2008, 06:07 PM

Here's where my problem is - If someone wants to eat ants or butterflies or whatever (on purpose) that is their choice. It's when they say they are vegan and aren't that makes me not trust them.

I had read something about Juliano when his book first came out. He said he was raw vegan. I got the book ASAP and saw it contained a lot of honey in the recipes. I didn't go raw then because I felt that if he lied about being vegan, then I didn't know what else in his book wasn't the truth.

I found that several raw food "leaders" claim to be vegan and aren't and will also say they have been raw for a certain period of time but upon reading further, that is not the case either. They might say they have been raw 10 years and then later add they went raw 10 years ago but that lasted a year and then they ate cooked for a year, went back to raw for 6 months, then back to cooked for 3 months, etc. To me, that's not raw for 10 years. I'm not judging those that eat cooked or go on and off raw, that's their choice but they haven't been raw that entire time. I can't imagine an alcoholic going to an AA mtg and saying they've been sober for 10 years but have had 35 drinks during that time.

I bought one of DW's books and couldn't finish reading it. To me, he appears to be someone with mental health issues who is quite intelligent with some decent speaking/writing abilities.

I'd love to find someone I could learn from that would say they are vegetarian and not vegan (if they aren't) and who gave an honest indication of time they've been raw. I've not found that person yet and so far I'm just going along on my own and eating my food and watching what happens.

Inca_faerie

08-11-2008, 06:29 PM

i think the big grin at the end of her post meant she was joking around inca.

:D

I thought so too, just wanted to emphasize on jenjens point.:)

coco

08-11-2008, 07:53 PM

if someone wants to squash or eat bugs it is entirely up to them but invalidating the other side of the arguement just because the can't see eye to eye isn't conducive to open dialogue. everyone has a right to their views. if you're not that kind of vegan, you're not that kind of vegan but some are and deserve respect for their views.
if someone wants to kill bugs and not be told they are wrong to do it then it's balanced to return the favour and respect the alternate decision in others, isn't it?
some feel that it is a big deal, that it does matter, that the value of life is not dependant upon the size of the creature, that it is valueable by virtue of being alive. and they are allowed that POV whether you share it or not.

as for the strawman arguement about "killing" vegetables, that's taking things to an extreme in a way that makes having a reasonable discussion very difficult. it's funny in it's way but it's also invalidating as well as being a diversionary tactic that detracts from the whole discussion.

iamacranberry

08-11-2008, 08:58 PM

Aleesha, please read this:

http://www.is-masaru-emoto-for-real.com/

Inca_faerie

08-11-2008, 09:32 PM

as for the strawman arguement about "killing" vegetables, that's taking things to an extreme in a way that makes having a reasonable discussion very difficult. it's funny in it's way but it's also invalidating as well as being a diversionary tactic that detracts from the whole discussion.

In a way I agree, but I feel that saying that swatting a fly is "murder" is equal in it's extremity as saying that eating a carrot or "living" food is "killing" so in the end it really is a matter of a persons point of view and neither one is right or wrong. Also, speaking of opinions, I don't think it's fair to label someones personal opinion as a "diversionary tactic". This is an interesting discussion, and all from a few ant's being at the wrong place at the wrong time(probably on David Wolfes grapes) :p or maybe they were in the right place at the right time?...that's how nature seems to work.

MrsJohnnyG

08-11-2008, 09:34 PM

i think the big grin at the end of her post meant she was joking around inca.

:D
Thanks for getting it! ;) I had actually agreed in my earlier post and was just being my goofy self with that second one. :)

coco

08-11-2008, 10:06 PM

In a way I agree, but I feel that saying that swatting a fly is "murder" is equal in it's extremity as saying that eating a carrot or "living" food is "killing" so in the end it really is a matter of a persons point of view and neither one is right or wrong. Also, speaking of opinions, I don't think it's fair to label someones personal opinion as a "diversionary tactic". This is an interesting discussion, and all from a few ant's being at the wrong place at the wrong time(probably on David Wolfes grapes) :p or maybe they were in the right place at the right time?...that's how nature seems to work.

if the issue of "killing" veggies to eat them being equivalent to killing animals to eat them had been raised seriously i would be willing to weigh in on it but it was thrown into the arguement as a way to invalidate the view that killing a bug is taking a life, which it inarguably IS. whether one sees that life as valuable or not is something else. taking life is taking life IMO, who are we to judge the value of each life? did nature intend for one species to be more entitled than another or is that just a human concept?
like i said, i will kill a bug that is biting my child but i will do it with the consciousness that i am choosing to take that life. it's not nothing to me, i make the choice and accept what it is. a fly has consciousness, it is a living being, it had a mother, it can become mother or father, it thinks in whatever capacity it has, it is alive in a way that a carrot is not. there is a difference to me, if there wasn't i would not hesitate to eat creatures.

Inca_faerie

08-11-2008, 10:59 PM

on one had you say "taking life is taking life IMO, who are we to judge the value of each life? did nature intend for one species to be more entitled than another or is that just a human concept?"

but then "a fly has consciousness, it is a living being, it had a mother, it can become mother or father, it thinks in whatever capacity it has, it is alive in a way that a carrot is not."

You just judged the value of life right there, stating that insect life is more vauble then plant life.

If you are going to compare a cow or whichever animal, to a fly then why not compare a fly to a plant?(which also has consciousness) if a fly or any other insect has a "mother and father" then one could reason that a plant does as well, the seed which it grows from being the father and the earth that it grows in being the mother. An insect is not an animal, it is still a life of course and if one wants to get deeper into it, so is a plant. For me, choosing to rid your home of insects is hugely different than supporting for instance factory farming, which enslaves and causes suffering to animals, pollutes the planet and destroyes nature via deforestation to raise those animals not to mention the negative impact is has on health for most if not all humans.

I mean none of this in a negative way coco and even though I don't agree I respect your opinion I thank you for giving me the chance to flex my "debate" muscles a bit and for sharing an interesting discussion.:)

coco

08-11-2008, 11:29 PM

oh, a good debate is the corner stone to solidifying your own ideas if you ask me. it's an awesome tool for figuring out where you really stand, so long as you can be flexible about it. i try. sometimes i fail but i do try.

we must agree to disagree about the consciousness of plants.
though there is a school of thought that the only plants that should be eaten are the ones that benefit from it ie plants with seeds. fruit makes itself smell and taste delicious in the hope that animals (like us) will eat it and spread it's seeds far and wide (preferably in a pile of helpful manure ;) ). a person is a seed's way of making another seed. heh.
i can see the validity of that arguement though i am not convinced that it is a viably healthy option. interesting none-the-less.

Bananna

08-12-2008, 04:59 AM

I think root vegetables are for eating when times are scarce...that's why you have to dig them out and also why they are a decently high carb source.

As for leaves...you can eat leaves without killing the plant, easy....which actually makes it grow more prolific too I believe.

I've also heard that in general the more life resembles us the more we are likely to have a hard time killing it. We have NO problem killing bacteria for example. But something with big sad eyes that we can almost imprint our emotions on...traumatizing.

iamacranberry

08-12-2008, 03:43 PM

StarFire

08-12-2008, 05:09 PM

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa87/MsDragonFly91/prod_459_15879.gif ... hello... please don't eat me!! :D :D

StarFire

08-12-2008, 05:18 PM

What differentiates plants from animals in terms of consciousness is the central nervous system, which is the system which allows an organism to experience pain. Plants don't have one, and therefore, they do not experience pain.

I have often wondered about this very thing... when I was in school... we learned of an experiement done with plants... you know the typical -- play wonderful music - love the plant and it flourishes...

say hateful mean things to the plant, play horrid loud disturbring music and it grows stunted and becomes weak and is near death....

a part of that study that we also learned about - was when the scientists took freshly harvested lettuce and vegetables and began hacking at them - chopping them into pieces near another vibrant 'normally happy' plant... the happy plant recoils a bit -- and actually puts off an electrical current or reaction of some kind -- a disturbance in it's surrounding electric field... almost a static electrical and erratic wave lengths...
Our professor posed the question to us...

"Is this fear? Do the plants KNOW what is happening?"

I couldn't eat salad for weeks after that! :eek:

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/FireStar_830/OMG-1.gif

Inca_faerie

08-12-2008, 06:04 PM

[QUOTE=iamacranberry;447520]Has nothing to do with emotion. Words, anyways, are subjective. For the experiment to work, you'd have to assume the plant was fluent in English....which is ridiculous.QUOTE]

Not so, it's the energy behind the words, whether there is a loving/positive energy behind them or a hateful/negative energy regardless of which language the words are spoken in.

MrsJohnnyG

08-12-2008, 07:01 PM

Not so, it's the energy behind the words, whether there is a loving/positive energy behind them or a hateful/negative energy regardless of which language the words are spoken in.
True... this would explain the experiments that show plants fare much better when classical music is played versus death metal.

Bananna

08-12-2008, 07:18 PM

fuggles

08-28-2008, 07:23 PM

a quote from the link above says though....

"This suggests, of course, that a healthy jolt of industrial-strength heavy metal may be just the thing to invigorate your rutabagas."

...what if you Love death metal?

:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nks2ZPQ7RtU&feature=user

Honey and ants ?? Some people dont even eat honey.

ants are the next superfood !

detoxyourworld should sell ant powder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nks2ZPQ7RtU&feature=user

iamacranberry

08-29-2008, 05:46 PM

Inca_faerie

08-29-2008, 05:54 PM

[QUOTE=Inca_faerie;447524]

And I am saying that there exists no such energy, thus the point about language.

You are saying that there is no such thing as positive/negative energy?? Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree...in a big way!:D

Raine

08-29-2008, 05:56 PM

[QUOTE=iamacranberry;452950]

You are saying that there is no such thing as positive/negative energy?? Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree...in a big way!:D

I'm on your side. I've learned the hard way to always trust my vibes no matter how subtle with it comes to positive/negative energy.

debilana

08-29-2008, 06:06 PM

If there is no such thing as positive neg energy, than what is it we feel...say you walk into a room where people have been fighting, and suddenly you feel all tense? You feel their energy and pick up on it.

I am no scientist but my belief- and yes, its just a belief- is that we are all just made up of energy- everything, we swim in it. People can use collective energy to work with this energy and make amazing things happen- from prayer to witchcraft. Energy is a thing- we feel it -I can look at my cat or my child or husband and feel what sort of mental state they are in just by the energy flowing from them. Does this make sense? Its sorta like how animals can tell when an earthquake is coming- they can feel the energy of the earth before we can.

If I walk around in a depressive funk allday, I bring down everyone around mwith my negative energy. When I give off peace and happy energy, my family picks up on it and they are happier. If I yelled at my plants hours a day I really do not think they would grow happily- but dammit I just do not have that much free time to try it out. Maybe we should have a RFT experiement=)

RawHeaven

08-29-2008, 07:32 PM

[/QUOTE=iamacranberry;452950]

You are saying that there is no such thing as positive/negative energy?? Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree...in a big way!:D

Don't cha wish your girlfriend was RAW like me?
Inca_faerie, your signature should be made into a Tshirt. Lol. I'd buy it. :) Cha ching.

Whether there is positive or negative energy is up for debate, although I agree that there is. I definately know there is external energy that impacts me either negatively or positively if I allow it. I know this for sure.

SwishTN

08-29-2008, 07:44 PM

I actually think ants are very interesting to watch.

And the big ones have faces and personalities.

I used to watch them during my lunch, one batch would go up the post, the other would come down, and they would all touching each other as they passed by. Wasn't sure if they were giving high fives, a kiss on the cheek, or WHAT!!

really interesting. I like dragonflies, too :) .

I know this has NOTHING to do with David Wolfe, though...

Inca_faerie

08-29-2008, 08:56 PM

[QUOTE=RawHeaven;453000]Don't cha wish your girlfriend was RAW like me?
Inca_faerie, your signature should be made into a Tshirt. Lol. I'd buy it. :) Cha ching.
QUOTE]

lol it should be! let's hope the pussy cat dolls don't sue.:D

coco

08-30-2008, 04:07 PM

i like your science, girl. the practical capricorn in me says "hurrah!" to the voice of reason.
i'm a pretty flaky hippie in some regards but this 'energy' thing, it's so subjective as to lead me to think that it is all in one's mind after all. that doesn't discount it, rather it neccessitates taking responsibility for one's own reaction to things. why else is it that one person can walk into a room where two others have been argueing and get all uptightety but another person can walk in and just be totally cool with it all? same situation, different perspective. it's not the energy at all, it's one's perception of it and therein lies the rub.

Inca_faerie

08-30-2008, 05:41 PM

It's not external energy of any measurable sort, though. In fact, there really is no such thing as positive and negative, except on a personal and/or societal consensus basis. Positive and negative are subjective concepts, and that is all. Our perception of things can be manipulated by things only available to our subconscious minds, but this does not imply the existence of positive and/or negative energy, and claiming that such things exist simply because one lacks proper understanding is fallacious.

The philosophical sagittarius is trying to get out!!:eek: can't...hold her...in...Aaaarrggh!! ok, she's out...*whew* that was a struggle.:D

If you are going to base the existence of something upon perception then every single thing you have ever seen/felt/heard/etc. is subjective and may not have existed at all, your brain was simply sending electrical signals to verify what you thought was real. Every living thing gives off energy which is neutral to begin with. We have the ability transform it into either positive or negative energy with our thoughts/emotions/actions. As some have mentioned before, they can walk into a room in which people have previously been fighting/arguing and pick up on the tension. Your basicly saying that something a person can literally feel is based upon lack of undertanding.

It seems to me, that by claiming that certian things don't exist/are fallacious because one cannot perceive of them or feel them is where the real lack of understanding lies.

mongodelight

08-30-2008, 06:04 PM

I remember i read in a book that there s a vegan tribe that eats mussels once a year. They say they do it because there babys die if they dont. I dont know ir thats true. The b12 thing is ery controversal. But hehe... I ve got so much b12 in my liver that i dont have to think about it for at least 5 years.

I heard there are a few odd plants that contain vitamin b12?

iamacranberry

08-30-2008, 08:49 PM

"If you are going to base the existence of something upon perception then every single thing you have ever seen/felt/heard/etc."

I'm not basing my claims on perception. However, you and the others who claim that positive and negative energies exist are doing so.

The reason that the scientific method/logic/etc. are great methods for determining truth is that knowledge is based on things which are testable and repeatable, thus eliminating the bias of perception.

"Every living thing gives off energy which is neutral to begin with. We have the ability transform it into either positive or negative energy with our thoughts/emotions/actions. "

Unsubstantiated.

"As some have mentioned before, they can walk into a room in which people have previously been fighting/arguing and pick up on the tension."

And another person, as coco mentioned, can walk into the same room and feel nothing. If positive and negative energies truly existed, they would affect even the skeptics. I'm easy to convince--I just need the facts, a slew of unbiased double-blind studies, a bit of logic, etc.

Wonderful people like Joe Nickell investigate paranormal claims and always manage to find viable scientific explanations.

Raine

08-30-2008, 09:59 PM

Coco - I'm a Capricorn too! I always go with my vibes - must be the earth sign in us.

i like your science, girl. the practical capricorn in me says "hurrah!" to the voice of reason.
i'm a pretty flaky hippie in some regards but this 'energy' thing, it's so subjective as to lead me to think that it is all in one's mind after all. that doesn't discount it, rather it neccessitates taking responsibility for one's own reaction to things. why else is it that one person can walk into a room where two others have been argueing and get all uptightety but another person can walk in and just be totally cool with it all? same situation, different perspective. it's not the energy at all, it's one's perception of it and therein lies the rub.

Inca_faerie

08-31-2008, 12:07 AM

[QUOTE=iamacranberry;453339And another person, as coco mentioned, can walk into the same room and feel nothing. If positive and negative energies truly existed, they would affect even the skeptics. I'm easy to convince--I just need the facts, a slew of unbiased double-blind studies, a bit of logic, etc.

Wonderful people like Joe Nickell investigate paranormal claims and always manage to find viable scientific explanations.[/QUOTE]

If there truly was to be a study done on this matter, it would be catagorized as metaphysical, which sadly the mainstream science community chooses to classify as "pseudo science."
If you need someone in a lab coat and a clipboard to verify something before you decide it's true....well, let's just say I wouldn't enjoy that frame of mind.;) The idea that something does not or cannot exist without being proven is absurd even unimaginable to me. Blatant and obvious physical/mental/emotional perception/feeling is more than plenty for me (and others) to accept something as true without reading about it in a double blind study. I do my own double blind studies every single day just by living and so far the results indicate that there is indeed such a thing as positive/negative energy and I'll continue use it and enjoy it (or avoid it) to my benefit.:)

coco

08-31-2008, 07:53 AM

well, that's not a double blind study at all, what that is is pure personal bias.
i'm totally willing to let you have it, that you "feel" energy etc, i completely agree with you. if you believe it to be true than it IS true for you. that's the bottom line. but i do think that everything that we think we see, feel, hear, know etc is all a product of our own mind and perceptions. yes, this chair i am sitting on is "real" but what kind of a chair it is is entirely decided by my own mind. another person may have a completely different perception of said chair and neither of us would be right or wrong. what we perceive is totally real to us all, even if it's different from eachother.
that said, i feel that this gives us the power to change our own reality with our thoughts about it. i love the work of byron katie on this subject. pretty cool.

Inca_faerie

08-31-2008, 01:08 PM

lolol well I didn't mean it literally coco!:D I was just making a point about what life has taught me. The words "double blind study" mean bugger all to me. I'm just not a fan of someone dismissing something that they can't/have not experienced. I think it will be a looooong time before there are any credible metaphysical studies done and before there is any definative "proof" on this subject so in the mean time we just have to find our own proof. Now...I'm off to eat about 30 persimmons, possibly more.:D

Michael123

09-08-2008, 10:43 AM

ants are the next superfood !

I thing thats the best one!

www.blackantzz.com.cn

Michael123

09-08-2008, 12:54 PM

I think that this link is very interesting:

http://www.hamiltoninstitute.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=81&Itemid=29

RawHeaven

09-08-2008, 01:05 PM

^^^ The last link is interesting. Great information, makes you think.

But...

They lost me with the maggots being used to clean infected wounds! Only would use that method if it was a last resort for me and I was trapped in the wildnerness or something, lol. I respect the ants, just don't think I could knowingly eat them.

"For centuries, cultures from around the globe have used insects for medicinal purposes. In regions of China, black ants are used as an effective treatment for Diabetes. In Korea, (Scolopendra) Centipedes reduce inflammation of joints, and ease the symptoms of Arthritis. And maggots are effective in cleaning out infected wounds. The possible benefits of Insect Pharmacology are clear."

Stina

09-08-2008, 01:19 PM

Yeah, but how about those tasty cockroaches! Oh, sorry, forgot that we're on a raw vegan site ;)

coco

09-08-2008, 01:27 PM

using maggots to clean wounds is incredibly effective as they only eat dead flesh and then naturally fall off the wound once that is all gone. it's a practice used in many hospitals around the world and i personally would be grateful for the treatment if it prevented gangrene or another serious infection (for which there are few effective treatments, btw, and none of them natural).

RawHeaven

09-08-2008, 01:31 PM

I know Coco, wasn't knocking it just saying it would have to be an extreme circumstance for me personally to use maggots. I have a maggot phobia since I was a child. But you never know until the situation arises how you'll react. I remember watching something on the discovery channel or PBS about them being used to help someone who almost lost their fingers from an industrial accident. Blood wasn't circulating properly in the reattached digits. Western medical doctors used them to keep the blood flowing into the fingers and joints or something like that. It was fascinating and what you say is true. :)

RawHeaven

09-08-2008, 01:33 PM

Yeah, but how about those tasty cockroaches! Oh, sorry, forgot that we're on a raw vegan site ;)

Oh no no no no. No, that's just wrong. lol.

ferg

09-08-2008, 02:22 PM

Yeah, but how about those tasty cockroaches! Oh, sorry, forgot that we're on a raw vegan site ;)

I agree and am just popping in to say this site is raw vegan and I have had my head bit off several times for mentioning "raw cheese"... so I'd like to know whaz up with all this 'ant' talk and why the raw food police are allowing it... is it because 'raw god' David Wolfe eats ants???? I guess if David Wolfe eats it, than it's okay to talk about it... anyone else would have been banned already... sheesh; talk about double standards

Inca_faerie

09-08-2008, 03:41 PM

I'm pretty sure I saw something on the discovery channel about some asian countries eating cockroach candy or some sweet made from them...caramel cockroaches!! a new halloween treat!:D I think I'd take one over an o henry anyday, always hated those things.:p

Stina

09-08-2008, 07:08 PM

And if this hot controversy dies down, maybe we could argue about honey (just kidding....loving y'all!)

Inca_faerie

09-08-2008, 07:40 PM

And if this hot controversy dies down, maybe we could argue about honey (just kidding....loving y'all!)

omg Stina, that's my worst fear!!:eek: " It is vegan" "no it's not!" "yes it is!"
Nooooooooooooooooo!!! *runs away screaming*

Inca_faerie

09-08-2008, 08:28 PM

sigh:rolleyes: ...iamacranberry, we disagree with each other and that's ok, I don't mind at all. I've said what I needed to say so I'm going to happily let this rest. About my own daily double blind studies, I was kidding of course and yes I know what a double blind study is.;) This could go on forever, much like me argueing with my mormon friend over the various aspects of his religion. Anyway I'm pretty much done and I hope you have a wonderful day...or in your case very early morning.:)