muscle loss on a juice fast?

[blueopal]

This is what i worry about.

My muscles atrophied to some extent ( lost thier volume ) last year during dieting and intense cardio - i didnt knbbow any better.

Now my body is craving to go on a juice fast - i plan on going for 2 months - see how i go and lonbger or lesser if need be.

I am a little over weight - in that skinny fat range and want to gain muscle - yet at the same time want to heal my body from alot of stress and illness ive put it through recently.

I want my body to have a clean slate - but i worry about after loosing muscle and looking gauntly and having a slowered motabolism.

My plan is to after the fast, get into raw eating and rev up my body's motabolism and gain muslce mass taking hemp seed powder and yellow pea powder along with in my daily diet routiene and body building and some interval training lightly.

Does anyone else have these concerns or same type plan?

[Aleesha Sattva]

we have a fancy scale... so does beckx. both of us experienced muscle GAIN on a juice feast... and i wasn't even working out!

if you read the juice feasters unite thread... in this section... you'll see some of our stats.

here's mine from my blog (http://aleeshasrawlife.blogspot.com/2008/06/measurement-for-this-juice-feast.html)

[JEN]

Aleesha and Beckx what kinds of scales do you have??? Sounds interesting.

[ebcl]

Blueopal,

Keep in mind...this is just my two cents.

I'm currently on day 72 of my juice feast. I don't have a fancy scale, but my old-fashioned dial scale says I've lost 42 lbs. I can almost guarantee you that some of that has been muscle (although minimal), some of it water, and some fat. Personally, I don't believe it's possible to lose 42 lbs of weight in 71 days and not expect some of it to be muscle ( I'm no expert, however, I did study corporate and community fitness in college, and I used to teach aerobics).

Before starting this feast I lifted weights regularily to prevent bone loss for a hormone deficiency. Since starting this feast I have done only a minimal amount of lifting and have found that I cannot lift as heavy as I could prior to feasting. That said, some of that is likely due to the fact that I haven't been lifting nearly as regularily for the past 11 weeks. I've had the energy to lift lights weights since I started feasting, it just hasn't felt like the right exercise for me lately. I may pay for that later...time will tell.

I think you can minimize muscle loss while feasting in a number of ways.

1) First of all, Feast, don't Fast. You need to give your body the proper amount of calories everyday (1200-1500). This is almost impossible to do unless you are drinking AT LEAST 4-5 quarts of juice daily. Any less than 3 qrts and you might as well consider yourself fasting. Extended Fasts WILL throw your body into starvation mode. That is what they are designed to do. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with fasting (there's not, it has its place), but when your body doesn't get enough calories to sustain its basic daily energy needs, it WILL get the energy it needs from somewhere else-namely your tissues. And it doesn't just go for the fat first, it burns a bit of both fat and muscle to get what it needs. Juice FEASTING is a wonderful way to detox without starving your body for calories or screwing with your metabolism (and since you have recently loss muscle mass, your metabolism is probably already low). If you really want to do a fast, I would think any amount of time longer than 10 days and you run the risk losing some muscle. On a FEAST, you can still detox while sustaining your body for a longer period of time and minimize muscle loss.

2) Drink your greens! This cannot (IMO) be overstated. At least 2 lbs a day + 1 head of celery to get your protien and potassium respectively. Spirulina and other green powders have their place, especially if you are on the run, but they cannot replace the benefits of fresh, live greens. On extended feasts, green juices start to taste like yak after awhile. Find a way to mask the taste (apples, carrots, garlic, peppers) and drink them anyway. Greens are the primary source of maintaining muscle mass on a juice feast.

3) If you are on an extended juice feast, you need to lift light weights. In your case, maybe right from the begining. You don't want to ask your body to build, just prevent your muscles for more atrophy.

4) Since muscle loss is a worry for you, you might consider adding in some vegetable-based protein powders to your juices. This can also help with calories. Again, you need a basic amount of calories each day depending on your body composition, size, age and gender.

5) As you probably know, muscle weighs more than fat so stepping on the scale and measuring body weight can be a bit decieving. Get yourself a fancy scale. These scales don't really measure muscle/fat loss, they measure body composition. And although they can be as much as 10-20% off in accuracy (body position, hydration, skin temperature and recent physical activity can all alter the results), as long as you standardize the readings (do things the same way everyday) you can still easily monitor any changes in your body composition.

If you have fat to lose, you can still lose it juice FEASTING without running the risk of losing as much muscle mass as you would if FASTING. And even better way might be to skip the fast for now, and lose weight and rev up your body by going RAW. After your body composition has come around again, it will be much better able to handle the rigors of fasting or feasting.

[Aleesha Sattva]

I respectfully disagree with some of what Ellen has shared.

David Wolfe states:


As you begin to undertake longer fasts, you will recognize that the body first uses up sugar in your system for fuel, then, after three days, clicks over to glycogen stored in the cells and liver. The body will eventually tap into the body fat and begin converting that to fuel until it is depleted. Protein breakdown is the last thing the body turns to for fuel.

taken from this article (http://www.timelessspirit.com/JULY08/davidwolfe.shtml).

Here David is talking specifically about fasting... not feasting. So on a juice feast, you wouldn't loose much if any muscle as you are getting so much protein from your green juices. I've read in many places and heard from other long-time f(e)asters that it's more of a wives tale about muscle loss than a reality.

Also Dr. Gabriel Cousins holds spirulina ABOVE greens for daily intake. He believes everyone should take spirulina every day! Just because it's a dry version of a 'wet' green does not make it 'less-than' a fresh green.

Since you say you are going to increase your muscle mass after fasting, then there really isn't an issue here. Your body will recover any lost muscle quickly once you are eating a balanced raw diet. :)

[Aleesha Sattva]

ah I found it...

and here is what David Rainoshek has to say (the creator of Juice Feasting for 92 days)


If only adding one or two supplemental aspects to your Juices, we would suggest the best bang for your buck can be found in MSM and Spirulina. Most people are at the Fourth through Sixth Stages of Disease (inflammation and scarred/thickened tissues), and MSM is an inexpensive, completely non-toxic way to reduce inflammation and break down scar tissue. Spirulina is a miracle food—and it is a food not pond scum. It is so protein and nutrient-dense it saves mothers and children in the third world from malnutrition. At 1 tablespoon a day with no negative side effects is not only a food, but a miracle superfood. Read "Earth Food: Spirulina" by Robert Henrikson and you will develop a newfound appreciation for blue/green algae like spirulina, chlorella, and E3Live.

taken from this article (http://www.timelessspirit.com/JULY08/interview.shtml).

It was his response to the question: You suggest taking "superfood" supplements while we are Juice Feasting. These can be quite expensive. Which ones do you suggest to the people who can only afford to purchase one or two of them? Can a person still participate in the Feasting Program without these supplements?

[Aleesha Sattva]

Aleesha and Beckx what kinds of scales do you have??? Sounds interesting.

Salter - Body Fat Analyzer and Scale

[ebcl]

I respectfully disagree with some of what Ellen has shared.

David Wolfe states:

taken from this article (http://www.timelessspirit.com/JULY08/davidwolfe.shtml).

Also Dr. Gabriel Cousins holds spirulina ABOVE greens for daily intake. He believes everyone should take spirulina every day! Just because it's a dry version of a 'wet' green does not make it 'less-than' a fresh green.


Aleesha,
Your response to spirulina surprises me. For someone in your line of work (so used to working with energy and life force) I'm surprised that you would accept that any food in powdered form (regardless of who is claiming it is so) is superior to something that is eaten fresh. Many raw foodies disagree on this point. Some give large creedance to "super foods", while other do not. I take spirulina regularily, but as a suppliment to my greens, not a substitute. And only because I want to make sure I'm getting ALL the nutrients I need through a VARIETY of greens. IMO, eating food in as close to its natural state as possible trumps anything powdered. To each his own.

[ebcl]

I respectfully disagree with some of what Ellen has shared.

Here David is talking specifically about fasting... not feasting. So on a juice feast, you wouldn't loose much if any muscle as you are getting so much protein from your green juices.

Have you looked into this yourself, Aleesha? Do you know exactly how much protein you get in the greens you juice? I have. It's not all that much. For example, Kale (which is one of the greens highest in protein) has 5 grams of protein per cup. That's actually quite a bit higher than most other greens. So, unless you're drinking almost entirely green juice made from kale while FASTING (highly unlikely for most people), it's going to be hard to get the 40-60 grams per day (depending on weight and physical activity) that most people need while fasting. That may not matter short term. But over time you WILL lose SOME muscle. It's tough to say how much, maybe not much at all. But advising someone who has already stated they are experiencing less-that-ideal muscle mass to fast long term seems unwise to me. And unhealthy.

[ebcl]

I respectfully disagree with some of what Ellen has shared.

David Wolfe states:

As you begin to undertake longer fasts, you will recognize that the body first uses up sugar in your system for fuel, then, after three days, clicks over to glycogen stored in the cells and liver. The body will eventually tap into the body fat and begin converting that to fuel until it is depleted. Protein breakdown is the last thing the body turns to for fuel.

:)

Exactly my point. Protein breakdown may be the last energy source the body turns to for fuel- but on longer fasts IT WILL turn to it for fuel eventually. Even if one doesn't end up losing a lot of muscle (and no one can predict what any one individual will lose), you will still lose SOME. If a person is already worried about muscle loss going into a fast, it seems to me that this issue could be a cause for concern. A better way would be to rev up the body First.

To quote Aleesha's article by Daivd Wolfe:

"One should build up stores of natural amino acids (superfoods), chlorophyll (greens), sugars (fruit), and raw plant fats in the system for at least 6 months before undertaking a fast of two days or longer. "

[Aleesha Sattva]

Sorry Ellen, I wasn't advising the OP either way, at least that was not my intent. I was simply sharing what I know and believe to be true... and suggesting they read the thread.

Also, I do believe that the nutrition I get from wheatgrass shots and spirulina is sufficient for long term fasting. As you know from our experiences of feasting together... I don't choose to do a lot of greens in my juices... although I do use lots of fresh herbs which I believe to better than the usual greens (spinach, kale, collards etc).

But I do agree with you on this... long term fasting if their muscles are still in same condition as they were a year ago... would be unwise. Although I took, from reading their post that is what happened then... and now they are looking at doing things differently. Guess it's how you read it? Now we need to find out what the OP meant :)

[ebcl]

LOL! Yes, I know how you love your wheatgrass. No apologies are necessary (which, I hope by now you know). You and I approach juice feasting quite differently. Thankfully, we both get the results we're looking for :)

So OP...Are you worried about losing more muscle, having your metabolism get even slower, or what?

[Aleesha Sattva]

Aleesha,
Your response to spirulina surprises me. For someone in your line of work (so used to working with energy and life force) I'm surprised that you would accept that any food in powdered form (regardless of who is claiming it is so) is superior to something that is eaten fresh.

I used to feel the same as you Ellen. I guess experiencing being raw for a year and experiencing spirulina at one time and then fresh greens at other times - reading a lot of books and doing research on raw foodism... I have a very open mind where spirulina is concerned. I find it (in my experience) to be excellent (for my body).

[Aleesha Sattva]

LOL! Yes, I know how you love your wheatgrass. No apologies are necessary (which, I hope by now you know). You and I approach juice feasting quite differently. Thankfully, we both get the results we're looking for :)

So OP...Are you worried about losing more muscle, having your metabolism get even slower, or what?

exactly... and you know i love ya girl!!! http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x87/recyclinggoddess/ththexcited-1.gif

[ebcl]

I used to feel the same as you Ellen. I guess experiencing being raw for a year and experiencing spirulina at one time and then fresh greens at other times - reading a lot of books and doing research on raw foodism... I have a very open mind where spirulina is concerned. I find it (in my experience) to be excellent (for my body).

Hmm...perhaps my mind will change in the future as well. It usually does! I did eat a fair amount of nori, dulse, etc. before starting this feast and LOVED the taste of them. I'm a bit skeptical about "super foods" and "supplements" AND "raw food gurus" (learning to be my own raw food guru). It seems to me that all raw food is super. That said, I do have an open mind, and I do admit to being a newbie. I just have a healthy disdain for people telling me I HAVE to pop a pill or add a powder for optimum health. In the case of Super Foods, I don't doubt they offer wonderful benefits, but they also seem Super expensive. No one's charging $20 a pound for Bell Peppers, and they are #1 on the list of nutrient dense foods to juice according to the research I've done! LOL! :D Go figure....

[Aleesha Sattva]

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x87/recyclinggoddess/thiagree.gif i hear ya. i totally do. i'm in agreement with you - but in my experience, and the experience of some people i really respect... spirulina IS one of those foods which is amazing for our body. honestly, if i didn't feel it was working for me, i'd stop using it.

and i sooooooo don't do pills. i'm into natural whenever possible. just don't know about eating spirulina fresh. ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww so i'll stick with dried nori, dulse, kelp and spirulina.

*giggling at myself*

[pinkkpanthur]

Hello friends :)

So I have similar concerns. Due to several factors, I am hastening my plans for a 7 Day Master Cleanse, leading into another 6-8 weeks of juice feasting. But I am primarily concerned about two things: Muscle loss and my budget

I unfortunately do not have a lot of will power or at least I normally choose not to use it :P so I know juicing for any length of time will be difficult. I've recently cut out dairy and refined sugars from my diet but come straight from what y'all would call SAD (although I've never been terribly fond of meat).

SOooo this means I need to be well educated and careful before I start. I am not an athlete perse' but I do treasure the muscles it has taken me so long to build through years of running, dancing and some body weight exercises. (I'm actually just now getting to where I can hold a handstand without a wall. EXCITING! and I don't want to backslide.) I actually love juices, that's not the problem. The problem is fruits and veggies go right through me and I'm hungry an hour later (excepting avocados and potatoes and such). I want to make sure I'm taking in enough calories and enough protein to continue building muscle or at least not lose any.

Secondly, I am a college student with an extremely limited budget. We're looking at a max of $50 a week for foods on my feast. I think continuing to drink the lemonade throughout my feast will help because it seems pretty inexpensive per calorie. Otherwise, I'm afraid I'll have to resort to canned and frozen fruits for a lot of my calories. Any suggestions?

Finally, I'm going to get MSM and some sort of protein powder for my feast. What proteins, besides spirulina which I will probably get anyway, do you recommend?

Sorry this post was so long! Thanks for all your support. You guys are doing great things here for the health of the planet :)

[pinkkpanthur]

Oh and one more thing ... I'm about 175 at about 28-30% body fat as best I can figure. I wear a 12/14 but people often assume I weigh closer to 130-140, which I think is because I am built much ... um ... broader? stauncher? than other women. I get it from my Irish/German-ness. The least I should ever realistically weigh is 145 and I'm actually aiming for more like 155.

What this means is I'm starving if I eat less than 1400 calories a day. Ideally it's more like 1700. So that's a factor too.

[Aleesha Sattva]

So why exactly are you choosing to fast? How about simply eating raw foods. I know you 'think' you are hungry right after eating raw. That's because your body is able to process them quicker and because we have programmed our minds to think that if we don't have a 'full feeling belly' then we are hungry. Trust me... you will feel hunger fasting... it gets processed even quicker!

In fact, why don't you just give yourself time to get into the rhythm of eating raw?

IF you choose to fast... how about adding some wheatgrass shots? One ounce of wheatgrass juice is equal to 2.5 pounds of greens! So a double shot (which is what I always have) is equal to 5 pounds of greens. That's a whole lot of nutrition. Cause it sounds like you are going to want to work out while you are fasting... and for that, I recommend a juice FEAST.

As for proteins... personally I don't support any except what comes from your raw foods... kale and other greens are full of protein.

And even simply incorporating wheatgrass into your daily regime would greatly assist you.

[pinkkpanthur]

Thanks Aleesha!

The things hastening me to a MC/juice feast are ...

1) It concerns me that I only have a bowel movement every other day and then it's uncomfortable.

2) My pants are fitting a little snug and this is the last straw. I will not gain weight again. (Over the last two years, I've gone up to 185 twice and then back down to 175, but with a lot of work, more it seems each time. I don't want to buy new pants again.)

3) I'm tired all of the time and I want some cleansing.

I'm still messing around with the idea, and will continue increasing the fresh foods I eat until such a time as I decide to fast/feast. It just seems like the only thing that is going to induce a radical change right now.

And I will definitely try growing wheatgrass (which I find funny because I used to make fun of "health nuts" who drank grass ;)

[Aleesha Sattva]

Honestly all the things you are concerned with can be 'healed' with raw foods. You don't need to do something as "radical" to create the change you want... just get to 100% raw and you'll see the difference. Why not join the 30 day challenge? Lots of support there for ya and you can give it a month, see how you feel... and I bet you'll be feeling AMAZZZING!!!

Then later, if you want to fast... consider it. But for now... try just simply eating raw. ;)

[pinkkpanthur]

Thanks, I'll have to try that :)

[Aleesha Sattva]

found some interesting info:

Muscles Maintained during fasting (http://www.freedomyou.com/fasting_book/Muscles_Maintained.htm)

[Aleesha Sattva]

oh and here's some on protein and fasting:


Will I become protein deficient?

So many are concerned with protein deficiency; meanwhile never do we hear of anyone being diagnosed with protein deficiency, even on a restrictive diet. A number of years ago it was theorized that protein loss during fasting was harmful and that a fast should be supplemented with protein. Fasting with protein became known as the Opti-fast. Fasters took nothing but water and a protein drink. Sadly, several people died. Protein digestion during the fasting state creates an overload of urea and the blood becomes acidic. In this condition, the organs are stressed, damaging instead of healing. Your body has sufficient protein reserves for a 30-day water fast or longer. Fasting is a natural process.

taken from the same site as above.

[katalo28]

It's unhealthy to loss body water and not fat . I've got a magazine and it says that some boxers still beleive today they can drink to much water and it's total utter rubbish .I posted a thread about water intake a couple of months ago and asked how much water the forum drank and some said about a gallon a day .I noticed it does improve performance alot but have drank to much before a run and it made me sick .You should try drinking loads of water and eating next to f--k all , then work out , that way you loss fat and not water .If you spit in a cup and dehydrate then as soon as you rehydrate it just goes straight back on because it's water you loss , plus your risk of injury skyrockets when your dehydrated .If your trying to make weight for a fight then it's obviously ok because your bodyfat should be low anyway