NFL raw cacao- for Raw Truth

[Vanessa]

Hi- I saw briefly a post where you said that you had found out that the raw cacao that NFL is selling is not really raw. I was wondering how you found this out and if it was indeed verified.
I did a brief search on google and saw this email that some guy had written to this 'expert' in chocolate, saying that it was impossible for it to be raw for some reasons etc. Surely this isn't your source of info.
If you could let me know, I'd much appreciate it.

Thanks!
Vanessa
www.SomeLikeItRaw.net

[VeganVixen]

I just wanted to add that usually threads for one person could be pm'd instead , it would create better board feng shui :)

[Pailani]

The thread didn't even start with Raw Truth, the issue of cacao not being raw was introduced here a few days ago in a rather involved, gossipy thread by someone else, and that's probably where she got her information. Maybe you could do a search for that thread. At least then you'd be confronting the correct poster.

[Revvell]

This particular thread was responded to directly to the poster. RT and I were together when we were told by someone who supposedly has insider information that the cacao is, in fact, not raw and that REALLY raw cacao is so bitter one cannot possibly eat it.

What's the truth? *shrugs* Don't really know at this point.

For me, what I'm realizing is, the best thing for me to eat is locally grown, fresh, organic fruits, veggies, seeds, nuts, etc. except for a few outside grown things such as bananas, papayas, mangos and coconuts ~ stuff that's not been stuffed into a bag, although I am using "raw" carob (is THAT really raw?) on occasion.

I'm also considering the fact that papayas, mangos, coconuts and bananas, being shipped here have probably been sprayed with pesticides. Since they are peeled, well, iffy at best, yah?

Revvell

[RawTruth]

Hi Guys!

I already sent a PM to lovely Vanessa explaining myself in detail.

I've been mostly off the forum for the last few days, so I missed the "gossipy" thread, Pailaini. Dang!

Because the info I got was first hand and very credible (from very raw people who have actually been to cacao plantations, tasted how totally unpalatable it is in raw form, and who've observed the process), I'm doing more research into how the growers that NFL uses actually produce their cacao.

I've contacted NFL and, since I'm in the area, have no problem with actually driving down there and pursuing it in person if they don't respond. I'll post the information here when I get it.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Yay. Raw Truth our trusted Sleuth!

We'll be eagerly awaiting your findings!

[Revvell]

Yay. Raw Truth our trusted Sleuth!

We'll be eagerly awaiting your findings!


Ditto....... :p

[vegankristen]

I was wondering the same thing. The raw cacao I got from NFL was wonderfull when ground with agave. I mostly eat fresh fruits, veggies and a few nuts, but the raw cacao was such a treat! Especially with me being the chocoholic I am...carob just hasn't doen the trick for me.

Just in case it is true that the "raw" cacao isnt truly raw....where does everyone get there carob, and how do you use it. I loved cooked carob, but haven't found it as enjoyable raw, which is strange, b/c i tend to like foods better raw. My raw carob is from NFL and it is coarse.

Thanks!
Kristen

[Revvell]

Kristen,

I get raw carob from Whole Foods. If you go to the Caramel cookie thread I posted a fudge recipe using carob and agave. It was sooooo good!... and easy!!!!

Revvell

[Texicalian]

The Sacramento Co-op sells raw cacao nibs from Wilderness Family Naturals. I'm attaching a link to the company's explanation of the raw cacao nib process: http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/cacao_nibs_raw_organic.htm

Hope that helps!

[janine]

I really dig raw cacao....period.

[Revvell]

Thank you. I've just placed a rather large order of various items with them. What have you purchased ~ if anything? What do you recommend ~ if anything?

Thanks,

Revvell



The Sacramento Co-op sells raw cacao nibs from Wilderness Family Naturals. I'm attaching a link to the company's explanation of the raw cacao nib process: http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/cacao_nibs_raw_organic.htm

Hope that helps!

[Texicalian]

Revvell - I've only bought the raw cacao nibs. I actually did not realize that WFN had more than the nibs until today! I do love the nibs, but have no means of comparison except to the "cooked" version of cocoa. Please let me know what you think when you receive your order!

[Vanessa]

Why would the 'raw' cocao nibs from WFN or any other place be any different than the ones from NFL?

[RawTruth]

The Sacramento Co-op sells raw cacao nibs from Wilderness Family Naturals. I'm attaching a link to the company's explanation of the raw cacao nib process: http://www.wildernessfamilynaturals.com/cacao_nibs_raw_organic.htm

Hope that helps!Yes, Texicalian, it actually does. It answers some of the basic questions to which NFL has not responded. In fact, the Wilderness Family site is quite detailed in stating where the caco comes from, that the beans are fermented under banana leaves (not in direct sun), the temperature at which they're kept (which is acceptably low), and that they're organic. NFL is not specific like this.

Now, my only question to WF would be what standard does the organic certification meet. Cacao trees, if a mono crop for the farmer, are usually heavily sprayed with pesticides since the are usually besieged by disease. An "organic" designation can mean 1) that the fruit is not sprayed, 2) that the tree (sans fruit) is not sprayed, 3) that no chemical fertilizers were used on the tree, or any combination of these.

Vanessa, hopefully, this answers your question about the differences between sources, also.

[Pailani]

I am the "culprit" that asked if anyone had information on this. If anyone was offended, e-mail me and we'll straighten it out. In the meantime, I would like to read any and all information on raw foods.

Janine, I'm not offended about people wanting to get information. But I seem to remember the issue deteriorating into private emails being posted publicly and public business airing dirty laundry in a way that seemed a bit unprofessional.

I personally would like to know myself whether cacao nibs are raw or not. And if anyone is deliberately deceiving the public, then the truth needs to come out.

[RawTruth]

Here, unaltered, is what NFL sent me. I've color coded it so you can more easily separate the questions from the answers.

- - - -

To Whom It May Concern:

Before I order more raw cacao nibs, I'm hoping that you can provide some information for me (and a large group of other raw foodists for which I am inquiring).

In what country or countries is the cacao which you sell grown?

Ecuador only.

If on sun plantations rather than in rain forests, is it grown as mono crops (in other words, do the farmers grow only cacao?)

Rainforest mixed tree plantations.

If on sun plantations as mono crops, what pesticides are used to counteract the common blight that afflicts mono crops?

Our cacao is 100% organic. No pesticides, no chemical fertilizers.

It is my understanding that the cacao beans are allowed to ferment and "cure" in the sun rather than being heated artificially.

Our cacao experiences less than 15% fermentation (by far the least in the industry...which is usually 95% fermented).

If they are in the sun, to what temperature do they reach?

Tough question. The temperature inside a seed can be much lower than the ambient temperature of the air, especially if evaporation is occurring. A 100 degree Fahrenheit day, may be an 85 degree Fahrenheit day inside the nut or seed.

We know, for example, that flax seeds can survive an ambient air temperature of 150 degrees F without being damaged.

Can you provide independent verification of this?

Our 21 step proprietary process is confidential. It is the most unique, high-tech, drying and packaging operation for cacao in the chocolate industry. This means high safety measures are being taken to insure that no bacteria or fungal spores get into our final packaged product. This cannot be said of any other method. We prove to the USDA that our cacao is, in fact, microbe free.

If they are not in the sun, how exactly are they processed?

They are sun and tumble dried.

By what method are the "nibs" removed from the outer shell? By hand? By machine?

By machine.

I realize that answering these questions may be time consuming. However, with NFL's emphasis on cacao, and, especially, with the promotion of Naked Chocolate, I believe this to be crucial information to obtain. I don't know if you are aware that there is substantial questioning among some raw foodists whether the cacao is truly raw (as in not being involved in heat above approx. 105 degrees in ANY part of the process of harvesting, "processing," packaging, and shipping). I know there are some to whom it will not matter; the opportunity to use a product that is so close to being pure is more important to many people I know than whether it is actually 100% raw. So, I am hoping that you will provide the truth rather than a simple, general reassurance.

Most raw-foodists are unfamiliar with cacao (how it is grown, processed, how it should taste, the varieties, the difference between raw and cooked) and therefore they are not equipped to make distinctions on the subject. In fact, our cacao is processed at a lower temperature than any organic deshelled nut or seed on the market. If people believe that this cacao is not raw, then that would put into serious question the "rawness" of any deshelled nut or seed in the organic marketplace.

Thank you for your intelligent questions.

Have THE BEST DAY EVER!

Eva Holohan
www.rawfood.com
www.davidwolfe.com
www.thebestdayever.com
www.fruittreefoundation.org
www.thehealingwatersband.com

- - - -

Me again -- I must say that I don't feel that these answers are as clear and descriptive as the information that Wilderness Family Naturals has freely posted on their website. However, at this point, fellow raw-sters, the ball is in your court ... or the nibs are in your lap ... to do with what you will.

Anything else we wanna know? :D

[Sharon in Colorado]

>>the ball is in your court ... or the nibs are in your lap ... to do with what you will.

Anything else we wanna know? <<

Yes, why are all these balls and nibs in my court and on my lap? I'm getting itchy already :)

Thanks for posting this, really. I'm quite surprised that they answered as much as they did. I still have a full bag of nibs, and don't mind using them, but since they always leave a funny taste in my mouth and make me edgy, this'll probably be my last bag that I buy. By the way, the aftertaste reminds me of a mushroom, and since they're fermented, makes me wonder if some kind of fungal properties develop in the process of it.

[Alissa]

They are cooked. There is no way to get raw cocoa. Ive had this conversation a lot in the last few months and frankly its boring me since ive been told some very technical information that i cant remember all of it while relating so then it can come across as gossip. There is someone ive been talking to that can explain it better so maybe i will get some written info from him and post it, or ill connect one of you more left brain types with him and you can translate.

[Vanessa]

So then if they are indeed 'cooked', then all these other companies claiming to sell 'raw' cacao, are not telling the truth. Are they just jumping on the trendy raw food bandwagon??
It makes you wonder, and not just about the cacao, other products as well.

[pfc]

I can't say for sure if they're raw or cooked, but I will say this...
I went to a David Wolfe event in May where he had a cacao pod he had just opened. He said the pod had turned 'slightly' and the cacao seeds inside were no longer edible (he said that he has eaten them many times just opening the pod and eating fresh - I dunno). He handed them out to people who wanted them to plant. I planted mine and have a nice cacao plant growing in my bedroom now. It doesn't answer the question of raw or not raw, but if he was being honest about eating them directly out of the pod, then at least we know it is not 'so bitter' that it cannot be consumed.
Also, he said the seeds would only be viable for a few days, so if we didn't plant quickly they would not survive.

[RawTruth]

They are cooked. There is no way to get raw cocoa. Ive had this conversation a lot in the last few months and frankly its boring me since ive been told some very technical information that i cant remember all of it while relating so then it can come across as gossip. There is someone ive been talking to that can explain it better so maybe i will get some written info from him and post it, or ill connect one of you more left brain types with him and you can translate.Thanks so much, Alissa, for jumping into this thread. I will consider that the definitive word, then, and eliminate them as a raw food choice once and for all.

And, I'm really tired of the left side of my brain. You can have it for as long as you want. :D

[prana]

I came upon this thread while looking up Wilderness Family Naturals (banana search) to see if it was a good company. In this thread, Alissa among others says that cacao is not raw, sounds like anywhere in the world. I'm confused as it is sold on this website. Has new information come to light?

[spiralgirl]

Revvell,

I too am using raw carob and am also using organic cocoa (I'm special ordering raw cocoa from a local grocery store here and it isn't cheap). The thing is I'm only trying an 8 ounce bag because I've read some controvery on raw cocoa so want to see how it reacts with me. The thing is if it isn't really raw I'm happy to just stick with organic cocoa that isn't raw.

Just saw Alissa's post so guess we know the truth now. Think I'll cancel my special order now.

[SmilingRawDancer]

If it's an iffy thing to begin with I may just stick with the occasional cheap cocoa powder, and switch mainly to carob.
If it's not really raw, it's a wonder that Shazzie and them are such huuuge proponents of it.
Thank gooooodness I'm not a purist :)
The every-so-often tablespoon or two of something vegan cooked doesn't bother me :)

[Blazin'Jane]

Why would the 'raw' cocao nibs from WFN or any other place be any different than the ones from NFL?

What is NFL???
I ordered some Cacao nib truffles from Alissa's site. They were delicious, but very expensive. Now I'm curious about raw cacao and what we might do with it. It's referred to as a "superfooe"k sorrect? Because of the hight magnesium content??:confused:

[SmilingRawDancer]

NFL = Nature's First Law

[LearningDaily]

I came upon this thread while looking up Wilderness Family Naturals (banana search) to see if it was a good company. In this thread, Alissa among others says that cacao is not raw, sounds like anywhere in the world. I'm confused as it is sold on this website. Has new information come to light?

I am curious about this as well. If the raw cacao isn't really raw, why not just use regular cocoa powder. Both are cooked regardless as to labeling, right? Or have things changed allowing raw cacao to be acquired?

I am not a purest when it comes to this lifestyle, but I would like to know what is or isn't raw...especially if it is labeled as such.

[Zuri]

Im confused. If cacao isn't really raw why is it being sold as raw, esp by well known raw foodists? dang! and i just began to buy some. well, its better than eating hersheys chocolate.

[ManEatRaw]

Hi

I get my raw carob on ebay from a seller called oregonted. He also
includes free cookies with each order and the prices are good too.

Hope this helps!

Christopher

[RawTruth]

I am curious about this as well. If the raw cacao isn't really raw, why not just use regular cocoa powder. Both are cooked regardless as to labeling, right?

Because "regular" cocoa powder is processed all to heck. Even though "raw" cacao powder (if you read what I think I wrote earlier in this thread -- like 2-1/2 yrs ago!) is almost certainly made from cacao nibs that have almost certainly been exposed to heat (even while lying under banana leaves fermenting) higher than 118 degrees, the nibs are minimally processed compared to traditional cocoa powder (which usually also includes additives and other ingredients).


Or have things changed allowing raw cacao to be acquired?

I am not a purest when it comes to this lifestyle, but I would like to know what is or isn't raw...especially if it is labeled as such.Ha!! Wouldn't we all!

I think many of us were naive in thinking that in the raw world it needn't be caveat emptor. But, the reality is, it's not some sort of utopian world; I believe it is still "buyer beware".

It's up to us to be aware and well-informed. I think Rhio is the best example of this. Also Dorit Dyke. Both are highly ethical and don't promote or themselves use anything that isn't truly raw and of the highest quality possible. Dorit even eschews products made by people and companies she hasn't met and ascertained what their intentions are. Wow. Can you tell that she's a personal hero of mine?

[RawTruth]

Im confused. If cacao isn't really raw why is it being sold as raw, esp by well known raw foodists?

Ummmm ... at the risk of being seen as cynical -- my answer to why it is being sold by well known raw foodists? -- well, simply: follow the money.

There are also a number of "well known" raw foodists who don't sell raw cacao and who are unequivocal about it not being good for us regardless of it being touted as a superfood and all those other things both mainstream and alternative "experts" are saying about it.


dang! and i just began to buy some. well, its better than eating hersheys chocolate.

[Davylp25]

I love it, I trust the farmers who I order it from, that it is raw. Rawk On raw!

[Noone]

They are cooked. There is no way to get raw cocoa. Ive had this conversation a lot in the last few months and frankly its boring me since ive been told some very technical information that i cant remember all of it while relating so then it can come across as gossip. There is someone ive been talking to that can explain it better so maybe i will get some written info from him and post it, or ill connect one of you more left brain types with him and you can translate.

Alissa, can you consider to add some explaining info, like above, to the cacaoproducts you are selling? This to avoid confusion.
It can be the situation now that people think the cacaoproducts are raw.

Thanks. Noone.

[Davylp25]

COCOA AND CACAO not the same.

[Noone]

Thanks Davylp25, you are right, I meant cocoa.

So, as people are selling "raw"-cocoa, on sites which are about promoting
the raw lifestyle, I think it is a very good idea to add information to the cocoa-products that they are not really raw, in order to avoid confusion and to give the people honoust and the best possible description.
I can't see a reason for not giving this info.

Noone.

[Alissa]

Cherie just brought this to my attention.
It’s not because I can make money off of it Diana. I can make money off of a lot of things but I don’t sell them if I don’t think they are healthful. That is why I have a limited amount of products that I believe in and only think they are the best.
For instance, I had been selling the coconut flakes, which we sell A LOT of, but when we found out that they were not raw, I immediately stopped selling them.
I have done a lot of research since this thread first began years ago. I have since found out that they are not cooked and that you can get raw chocolate.
Do I think it’s a superfood? I don’t really know what that means. For me, a super food would be dark green leafy vegetable and other fruit and veggies that have life force in them because they are ripe, raw and fresh.
Do I think it’s ok to eat raw chocolate, yes, I do. I personally cannot eat a lot of it because I get wired. But I’ve been eating a good amount because I always have people around me, at my certifications, staff, etc.. making me some. If I eat a little I’m fine. If I eat a lot, I am up working till all hours of the night.
But do I think its raw, yes, I absolutely do. Otherwise I wouldn’t sell it.
Sorry this is quick and short, I’m traveling.
Alissa

[Noone]

Thanks a lot.
There is no hurry, because the discussion has been going on for years (laughing..:) .
I thought you meant there is no way cocoa and it's products are raw (your post n.o. 19 in this thread), therefore i posted my reaction.

Better a good overthinking than quick decisions.
And your small productline is indeed showing that you are only selling what has been thought about deeply and what you believe in.

Noone.

[Zuri]

Ummmm ... at the risk of being seen as cynical -- my answer to why it is being sold by well known raw foodists? -- well, simply: follow the money.

There are also a number of "well known" raw foodists who don't sell raw cacao and who are unequivocal about it not being good for us regardless of it being touted as a superfood and all those other things both mainstream and alternative "experts" are saying about it.


Thanks Raw. It seems to me that cacao just isn't raw, period. Nobody seems to be able to prove that it is.

[Rawkinlocs]

When I spoke with Alissa yesterday to let her know that her presence was being sought in this thread in relation to cacao, she did share with me that she spoke with the people where this cacao is produced and that she was assured there was no high heat temps involved and that it is raw. She somewhat described the process to me as it was described to her but I can't really recall all of it and Alissa is (or rather was) in the midst of traveling when she took the time to respond therefore, she couldn't really go that deep into it at the time.

Now, just like with ANY-thing else and what I have said a few times on this forum...we have to go with our own gut instinct and how we feel after consuming these products be it cacao, agave, herbs and spices, pre-made crackers, etc. because even when someone calls or writes the companies who make these products and ask about the temps, WHAT is to stop them from telling us what we want to hear...ANY of 'em? So, I trust Alissa and her integrity because I know her. Just like when she found out that the coconut she was selling on her site wasn't really raw, what's the first thing she did? She removed it and replaced it with the coconut powder she now sells, which to the best of her knowledge, is raw.

Again, the ONLY way one who wishes to be truly purist in all of this can be sure they are not getting anything that is not raw is to stick to eating very, very simply with nothing that is sold in a jar, bottle or package. Otherwise, I think we all could stand to not be so rigid and to just learn how to tune into and listen to our own bodies when we eat certain things and let THAT be our determining factor as to if we will consume it or not.

[LightLover]

Thanks RKL, I agree with you that a consument on his own can't do a lot.
And I can imagine a producent doesn't give all the productiondetails to every single consument. But I think the producent has the moral obligation to give
all the details (except patents) to resellers like Alissa.

Imagine what it would do for the rawfoodmovement, and for the reputation of the resellers, if after a year we find out that cocoa it is not raw, or some important facts have not been told?

Lately I found out about another product (not sold by Alissa) that it is not
as raw as expected by the reseller; I told this to the reseller (in fact someone else did..) an now there is a kind of warning/remark in the text of the reseller, that this particular product in the past had been sold without the reseller being informed enough by the producent, and also the reseller is considering whether to sell this product yes or no.
So these things do happen.

My point is that these products are a lot more expensive than SAD food,
and that the raw world not only cares about raw food, but also about
environment and deep communication with the consumers.

I am sure Alissa belongs to the top in doing so, but it is always good
to signal general problems in the business and to look in the future to
what is going on and living in the community.

Noone.

[Rawkinlocs]

Thanks RKL, I agree with you that a consument on his own can't do a lot.
And I can imagine a producent doesn't give all the productiondetails to every single consument. But I think the producent has the moral obligation to give
all the details (except patents) to resellers like Alissa.

Imagine what it would do for the rawfoodmovement, and for the reputation of the resellers, if after a year we find out that cocoa it is not raw, or some important facts have not been told?

Lately I found out about another product (not sold by Alissa) that it is not
as raw as expected by the reseller; I told this to the reseller (in fact someone else did..) an now there is a kind of warning/remark in the text of the reseller, that this particular product in the past had been sold without the reseller being informed enough by the producent, and also the reseller is considering whether to sell this product yes or no.
So these things do happen.

My point is that these products are a lot more expensive than SAD food,
and that the raw world not only cares about raw food, but also about
environment and deep communication with the consumers.

I am sure Alissa belongs to the top in doing so, but it is always good
to signal general problems in the business and to look in the future to
what is going on and living in the community.

Noone.

Lightlover (Noone),

You mentioned what would happen if a year later people found out that cacao wasn't truly raw - well, a similar thing happened with Bragg's (not to mention certain Lara Bars, certain nut butters and other things). For the longest time people in the raw community were using and highly recommending Bragg's Amino Acids and then it was revealed later on that this product is not raw and that there is a naturally-occurring MSG in it. So, some raw fooders switched over to Nama Shoyu and some still continue to use Braggs - they're own choice (most do it because it doesn't contain any wheat/gluten where as Nama Shoyu does).

So, IF later on down the line we discover that NO cacao product is truly raw, then the worst that can happen is that folks will stop buying it and go back to carob...and some will continue to use it - they're own choice.

Again, when one chooses to use products that are bottled, bagged, jarred then there is always that possibility that it may not be raw even IF the company/manufacturer says it is. That is why we have only our senses to rely on.

[prana]

Thank you all for the clarification. I personally like cacao and find it to be beneficial in my diet within its limits. Thanks again! :)

[Zella Juice]

yep..go by what your body is telling you. If you have been raw for a few months and you go and eat something that isn't raw you will probably get some reaction or feeling that isn't good.

When I eat something that isn't raw...I want to take a nap. My energy is totally zapped. When I eat "raw" chocolate...I get a headache.

[Noone]

Ok RKL, good answer.


Noone.