looking for testimonials re: MSM

[Zaphirah]

As of this morning I have released 79 lbs. I have always had skin issues, but now-UGH! I had 4 babies in 5 years (incl. 1 set of twins). I have stretch marks that are close to 1" wide. My stomach looks like an old deflated balloon with all the wrinkly extra skin hanging down. I worked so hard to look this bad??? LOL! I also scar with something as small as a mosquito bite. :rolleyes: I have acne scars and other scars all over, esp. my face and back. I have read that it is good for scars and such-but I don't want to be sold snake oil so I am looking for real life testimonials. :cool:
Is there any hope that MSM can help me? Can it lessen stretch marks? How about acne scars. Is it more effective to use the lotion or the tablets?

TIA.

[Arky]

Well, it is important to recognise that not all scars are physiologically the same.

Nonetheless, I can tell you that I had an extremely severe keloid scar which was persistent until I began taking Vitalzym 2 years ago (I continue to take it, to this day). Now, I began taking these for their general systemic benefits but I have been pleasantly surprised at how influential they have been, in addition to my high-raw diet, in reducing the keloid lumpiness to 95% flatness. I used to be able to pinch my scar and, subtracting the thickness of the skin itself (which I could do by pinching an adjacent non-scarred piece of skin, for comparison) hold a good 5-6 mm depth of pure keloid scar tissue (this was a serious scar resulting from severe ripping of my skin tissue with barbed wire).

So, from having a scar which, in itself, not including standard skin thickness, was a good 5mm thick, I now have a scar which, although still visible, is dramatically faded and is almost totally level - i.e. virtually the same thickness as the surrounding skin tissue - I estimate no more than 0.5mm (half of one mm) thickness of actual keloid scar tissue. This is pretty remarkable, particularly as the scar had made little or no improvement in the 5 years prior to commencement of enzyme supplementation (ask any experienced plastic surgeon and they will tell you that if a scar hasn't improved significantly by the time it is 18months-old, it is unlikely to make any noticeable improvement at any time after that).

I've periodically taken MSM, but not consistently enough for me to draw any firm conclusions on it's contribution, if any, to my particular scarring.

In conclusion, your MSM inquiry may well prove fruitful but in addition to this, I offer you my testimony of the power of systemic enzymes in improving the state and appearance of scar tissue, and highly recommend that you consider using them regularly and consistently, providing you are not on blood-thinning medication and have no gastrointestinal disorders which might make them unsuitable - in which case, do check with your doctor before taking them.

The fact that they assist digestion of foods is a bonus, although for maximum systemic effects one can take them at night, on an empty stomach. If you'd like to learn more about this kind of thing, Google Dr.Wong and acquaint yourself with some of his materials.

Good luck!


J.

[queenfluff]

I have been using MSM lotion on my pitted acne scars and I can tell you that they are significantly reduced and look so much smoothier. I use David Wolfes Brand of MSM lotion - it comes in many yummy scents. :)

Also, it has been said that the reason we scar in the first place is because we are deficient in MSM. So, in order to avoid further scars if I were you, I would start taking MSM internally. If you get a mosquito bite, put some MSM lotion on it twice a day and wait for it to heal and see what happens.

It works best internally though so you should start taking it in powder or capsule form.

[RawHeaven]

Is there any hope that MSM can help me? Can it lessen stretch marks? How about acne scars. Is it more effective to use the lotion or the tablets?

TIA.

Tia, I developed a condition called arthrofribrosis in my knee which I'm still working with after severely breaking my knee. Basically it is excess scar tissue in the joint which inhibits mobility. Two years ago in the heart of having a lot of operations which merely exacerbated the scar tissue issue, I began taking MSM supplements. I had many reconstructive operations over a 2 year period. I began taking it in the 2nd year of my recovery and in 6 months I noticed a significant difference in being able to move my knee. This is after a lot of rigorous physical therapy with very minimal results. Pre MSM I could only bend it 60 degrees...post MSM I could bend it 90 degrees. It was and is still stiff, but I could feel the difference then. I don't know 100% if this improvement was also influenced by the acupuncture I was having as well as other treatments, but I like to think the MSM helped. I stopped taking it a few months ago.

One thing I will tell you that is definately working with the surgical scars on my leg and hand is OIL PULLING. I was looking at my leg & knee just the other day and the scars are fading. These were deep scars from the accident from ripping the skin as well as having an external fixator drilled into my leg. They are all fading. Some may always be there because they are staple and scapel scars, but they are less noticeable. I know without a doubt it's because I'm oil pulling daily. I alternate with sesame and coconut oil. I personally don't worry too much about them anymore to be honest with you, I view them as a badge of strength. But not all scars are the same and our situations may be a little different.

Just wanted to suggest the oil pulling. The MSM probably won't hurt to give it a try, but definately give oil pulling a try also if you haven't already. I know it's working for me.



Well, it is important to recognise that not all scars are physiologically the same.

Nonetheless, I can tell you that I had an extremely severe keloid scar which was persistent until I began taking Vitalzym 2 years ago (I continue to take it, to this day). Now, I began taking these for their general systemic benefits but I have been pleasantly surprised at how influential they have been, in addition to my high-raw diet, in reducing the keloid lumpiness to 95% flatness.

Thank you for sharing this Arky. A nutritionist friend of mine recently mentioned Vitalzym to me and your testimony is very encouraging. I think I'm going to give it a try to help reduce the scar tissue in my knee. Is there a particular brand you recommend or use? I will check out the site you mentioned...is this where you purchase it?

Thank you very much!

Crystal

[Arky]

...it has been said that the reason we scar in the first place is because we are deficient in MSM.


I can't offer any evidence to specifically disagree with this; there is possibly some truth that, by virtue of the limited wild and/or organic foods in the diets of the general populace, naturally-occurring sulphur, from rain-watered plants, might be present in sub-ideal levels in the average person's body.

However, one thing I do know is that that is certainly not the only reason we scar. Systemic enzymes are critically-important. Here, I'm referring to those produced naturally by the body itself, when it is functioning healthily and producing optimum levels of enzymes, during youth. Many people do not realise that production, by the body, of systemic proteolytic enzymes tapers off dramatically as one enters the third decade of life. When you were a child, do you recall how, for the most part, you could cut yourself quite badly but find it would heal very quickly, whereas these days such wounds have a tendency to take significantly longer to heal, and do so with greater likelihood of scarring?


Another huge factor which many people are not aware of (I wasn't aware of it, either) is the influence of natural steroids. I recall a conversation I had with my maxilofacial surgeon, some years ago, when he offered me steroid injections (not for muscle-building! ;)) in a bid to reduce the rapidly-growing keloid scar tissue on my injury site (I decided to go ahead with this, and it did help a little, but had the effect of softening and widening my scar, rather than actually reducing it). He told me that a keloid scar is, simply-put, the result of the body mistakenly 'over-healing' an injured area of skin tissue. It keeps building more new skin tissue because it seems to be unaware that it has already created sufficient tissue to do the job satisfactorily. He went on to tell me that this healing mechanism of the body (which enzymes play a very significant part in) is heavily influenced by the presence of certain naturally-occurring steroids. Some people do not have optimum levels of these steroids in the body. What he then told me, astonished me: apparently, there are certain steroids that are present in the amniotic fluid of the womb, during gestation, and if one performs keyhole surgery on a foetus, one can be almost certain that when the baby is born, there will be virtually zero scarring. I mean invisible. For some reason, as yet unknown to science, these particular steroids do not remain with the human-being following its subsequent birth. Presumably, it has evolved as a survival mechanism for the vulnerable foetus - who knows how many minor injuries a growing foetus sustains during the 9 months it's mother is going about her daily business.

None of this post is intended as a rejection of the potential contribution of MSM to the scar-healing debate, but I would be wary of any MSM 'supplier' (I could hazard a guess at who might have said this ;)) asserting that scarring occurs due to MSM deficiency, as this is not necessarily 'the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth' :)

I dare say there are aspects of immunology involved with the body's reaction to closing off an injured (and thus exposed) area of the body, but immunology is a fearsomely-complex subject, even for scientists! Nutrient-wise, vitamins A, C, E, and zinc are key factors in this regard.

There are also claims made for the contribution of L-Cysteine in scar-healing, incidentally.

Coming back to Zaphira's specific kind of scarring, I do not know how this would be scientifically-defined, but it relates, in a way, to an excess of tissue, rather than to a 'healed' site of 'injury'. This is an important distinction, since it does not relate to over-proliferation of tissue, but rather to incidental redundancy, now that weight has been released. Therefore, I would be inclined to focus less on immunological nutrients and more on enzymes (which are the 'workers' of the body, wherever tissue building, demolition, or exchange is involved) and elasticity-enhancing nutrients (MSM being high on that list). Silicon is also highly associated with tissue elasticity and integrity. EFAs directly nourish cell membranes, and assist migration of nutrients and toxins across the cell membranes, so would be another important consideration.

Interestingly, almost all of these various substances can be used both internally and topically, which is rather a positive thing - it means you can approach the problem from both the inside and the outside, which can only serve to improve your chances of success, however slightly. I'd suggest you regularly rub your skin with pineapple and/or papaya juice (high in proteolytic enzymes), EFA and vitamin E rich oils (such as wheatgerm oil) and MSM lotion. Internally, you can regularly eat papaya and/or pineapple and/or you can take proteolytic enzyme capsules. MSM capsules, avocados, soaked seeds, sprouted foods, sea vegetables etc. will variously provide you with a host of EFAs, minerals (including zinc and silicon) and yet more enzymes. Note that enzyme therapy is not necessarily a fast thing but it is the kind of thing that can produce quite astonishing results, under some circumstances (I don't know for certain whether it will help your particular situation, but it is positive for the body, generally, so you have nothing to lose by trying it, provided you observe the medical precautions I outlined in my first response).


It's definitely an intriguing (and complex) topic, and I'm interested by your personal experiences with topical application of MSM, queenfluff. I look forward to hearing other people's experiences, too. Thanks for starting the thread, Zaphirah. Do also check out some of the archived threads on this, if you haven't already done so.


J.

[RawHeaven]

However, one thing I do know is that that is certainly not the only reason we scar. Systemic enzymes are critically-important. Here, I'm referring to those produced naturally by the body itself, when it is functioning healthily and producing optimum levels of enzymes, during youth. Many people do not realise that production, by the body, of systemic proteolytic enzymes tapers off dramatically as one enters the third decade of life. When you were a child, do you recall how, for the most part, you could cut yourself quite badly but find it would heal very quickly, whereas these days such wounds have a tendency to take significantly longer to heal, and do so with greater likelihood of scarring?


Another huge factor which many people are not aware of (I wasn't aware of it, either) is the influence of natural steroids....

J this is quite fascinating. I did a lot of research on arthrofibrosis while I was healing and I knew about the over scarring issue, but you explain it so clearly. Better than some of my orthopedic surgeons. lol. Thank you! I do believe because I'm raw now it has helped me heal significantly. No doubt about this. I'm getting so many more direct nutrients to my cells. I think we regenerate our cells while eating raw foods, I know we do actually. Thanks for sharing this information. It's very helpful to me and will help with my visualizations. :)

I forgot to add that my OS recommended steroids to me also to reduce scar tissue production after a couple of operations. They injected it directly in my knee cavity (not fun) and I believe it worked. My knee was still stiff but at least I didn't inherit even more scar tissue because of the post surgical healing. This definately would've happened without the steroid shot.

[Arky]

I do believe because I'm raw now it has helped me heal significantly. No doubt about this. I'm getting so many more direct nutrients to my cells. I think we regenerate our cells while eating raw foods, I know we do actually.

Yes, although you know by now that I am not a subscriber to the 'raw-is-magic' cheerleading club, I nonetheless completely agree that enzyme-rich, water-rich' foods do definitely assist the body in healing. Notice I'm not talking about using a dehydrator, here, folks! ;)

To tell you the truth, part of me wishes I'd known all those years ago, how hugely nutrition can contribute to good scar healing. In fact, although I'll never be able to conclusively prove it to myself, I firmly believe that part of the reason I scarred so badly was because I was eating a relatively devitalised diet at that point in my life. I have no serious regrets, though; our trials in life are no measure of ourselves - it is what we learn from them, and take forwards to better our future, that is relevant. In fact, I don't believe my accident was an accident, as such - in a certain sense, I believe it was a necessary teacher that I would be the lesser for not having experienced.




I forgot to add that my OS recommended steroids to me also to reduce scar tissue production after a couple of operations. They injected it directly in my knee cavity (not fun) and I believe it worked. My knee was still stiff but at least I didn't inherit even more scar tissue because of the post surgical healing. This definately would've happened without the steroid shot.

Yes, the steroid shots I had were also directly injected into the scar tissue, just in case anyone gets the impression, from my post, that they were just injected into my arm and left to find their way around my bloodstream. They were very small, numerous, and did not stray significantly from the scar tissue itself. Although, as I mentioned, my shots did not reduce the visibility of my scar (in fact, they made it more visible), they did soften the keloid tissue, which at least made it more pleasant to live with, from a practical standpoint. I'm glad you had a positive experience with your steroid shot, Crystal, and that you have made a fair recovery.


J.

[Arky]

Thank you for sharing this Arky. A nutritionist friend of mine recently mentioned Vitalzym to me and your testimony is very encouraging. I think I'm going to give it a try to help reduce the scar tissue in my knee. Is there a particular brand you recommend or use? I will check out the site you mentioned...is this where you purchase it?


'Vitalzym' is the brand I use. I bought mine from a naturopath selling over eBay but I suggest you try iHerb.com Please note that Vitalzym are a premium product so, unfortunately, you pay a premium price for them. There are many competing products which appear to offer similar or identical enzyme ingredients, and indeed you might experience very good results with those, at much less expense. However, I can only vouch for what I have used, and I paid the premium to use Vitalzym. If you talk to professional health-care providers, they will often tell you that Vitalzym is the one to use. The thing is, enzymes can take several months to begin to work their magic on a noticeable level, so if you buy cheaper enzymes, you won't know if they're any good until several months down the line. This is the reason I decided to pay the premium for Vitalzym - because the time I might have wasted with an inferior product would have been worth ten times as much to me as what I might have originally saved by buying an inferior product.

Just to be clear on my own experience - my good results were obtained using the more potent Vitalzym 'X' version, which is much more expensive than the standard item. However, you may not need to use the 'X' version. I'd recommend you discuss this with a professional, who will be able to give you specific advice for your knee. I believe the 'X' version of Vitalzym is more resilient to stomach acid, so that the enzymes are more likely to successfully make their way into the bloodstream and work their magic all around the body. You might find that you can take the standard ones on an empty stomach, just before bedtime, and still get great results.

I went for the 'X' version because I live in the UK and I couldn't afford to order the standard version and find they might not be powerful enough for me, because the shipping costs are prohibitive to then buy some 'X' version and have those shipped over as well. If you live in the States, it's much cheaper for you so it might be worth going for standard version, being careful to take them on an empty stomach, and see how you get on.


J.

[RawHeaven]

'Vitalzym' is the brand I use. I bought mine from a naturopath selling over eBay but I suggest you try iHerb.com Please note that Vitalzym are a premium product so, unfortunately, you pay a premium price for them. ....

J, thanks very much for this information. At this point, price is not a problem. I'm more interested in the product. My nutritionist buddy who is raw has 30 years of experience with all of this, so I'm going to ask him about the different options with Vitalzym. I'm no longer in the consulting a (medical) professional stage, but moreso listening to my intuition and body. I had a large number of surgeons and assistants working with me at any given time and I'm a bit burned out from that process you understand. hahaa. I was released last summer and I'm done with all that for now. I think I'll be fine and I really do appreciate all of this information and you taking the time to outline it. It's extremely helpful. Oh and I don't know if this is a subtle across the pond language barrier, but I've made a miraculous recovery, not just fair! I wasn't supposed to even be walking. :D Thank you again J. You're awesome.

[RawHeaven]

To tell you the truth, part of me wishes I'd known all those years ago, how hugely nutrition can contribute to good scar healing. In fact, although I'll never be able to conclusively prove it to myself, I firmly believe that part of the reason I scarred so badly was because I was eating a relatively devitalised diet at that point in my life. I have no serious regrets, though; our trials in life are no measure of ourselves - it is what we learn from them, and take forwards to better our future, that is relevant. In fact, I don't believe my accident was an accident, as such - in a certain sense, I believe it was a necessary teacher that I would be the lesser for not having experienced.


J.

Isn't this the truth?! I agree 100%. I've finally come to understtand that even though I was a vegan at the time, my diet was awful and it probably contributed to the excess scar tissue. However, in my case it's also genetic and I was very stressed out at that time in my life. I was a prime candidate for additional problems. It is a great teacher though isn't it? I wouldn't want to revisit the experience, but it certainly helped raise my awareness of how amazing the human body is - it pretty much heals itself.