You can be strong on raw

[raweater]

I admit it, I went back to bodybuilding.com for workout questions as there is a LOT more activity there (if a post doesn't get a reply it's off the first page in minutes, there are that many posts per minute). I just ignore all the "nutritional advice" and ask/read mostly about techniques/tips/etc.

One thing I noticed is that since I eat raw, I lost a lot of weight (max weight was 172lb on 100% junk food, current weight is 132 on 90% raw and 10% not too toxic cooked food), yet my strength remained the same (I used to lift about 300lb and still do, incredible for a 132lb person!). A lot of people on bodybuilding.com don't beleive me so I'll soon post a video there to prove them that it's true and what raw food can do. I mean a few of 200lb+ guys there lift about the same or even less than I do (of course a lot also lift a lot more than me).

I'm still trying to gain weight though, but I am amazed at my strenght to bodyweight ratio, this would not be possible on cooked food.

Isn't it ironic most people think raw food owuld make you weaker? Quite the opposite. By the way the reason I don't lift more than before is I had stopped lifting for a while, I'm sure I'll exceed my SAD strenght shortly.

[kinteet]

Of course you can be strong on raw, look at all the animals in the wild!

Check this out too!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iZu6mxNK46U

Keep on pushing!

F1

[raweater]

Is that the Fruitarian One in the video? And is that you (kinteet=fruitarian one?) Just wondering since you signed "F1" but you/he normally has a different username.

Thanks

[kinteet]

Is that the Fruitarian One in the video? And is that you (kinteet=fruitarian one?) Just wondering since you signed "F1" but you/he normally has a different username.

Thanks

Yep... it is I...F1:D and it is I in the vids.

Strength isn't in the food you eat....it's in your attitude!

Also...gaining weight that you are not naturally supposed to have is going against your bodies universal law!

F1

[RawSinger]

kinteet: that video of Richard Blackman is rediculous! I feel tired just watching him. That's so sad. I'm going to go work out now :o

[cara4art]

I agree!
Look at F1's pix - he looks pretty buff to me, and Charlie at charliesgyminfo.com. But F1 makes an excellent point about gaining weight you're not supposed to have is excellent, IMO. If one has a light build, and is strength-training well and on a raw diet, that body will be lean and light with sparkling muscle definition. Even with a heavier build, the raw body built on raw foods won't be the heavily bulked up look as in traditional bodybuilding, it will still be smaller, but more refined. I think Storm at the Garden Diet website had something to say along these lines as he has been raw for 30 years, and working out solidly for many of those years as well.
For my own part, in my raw journey, I am looking forward to the body that gets unveiled through continuing training and dietary refinement. For the record, I'm one of those women with a light bone structure, and not really overweight at this time, just a few menopausal pounds away from "fighting weight", so to speak. But I'm going by inches lost in the mid-section, and general appearance, rather than scale weight anyway.

[raweater]

I'm not sure what "gaining weight you're not supposed to have" means, if you lift heavy weights you will eat more and gain weight, it's a direct result and don't see what could be bad about that, I'm not taking drugs or anything, just lifting heavy weights and eating to my hunger, that's all.

[raweater]

Well I'm already up to 138. I'm still curious to know what's supposedly wrong with increasing my weight by getting stronger by working out...

[raweater]

Made it to 142 lbs so far! I'm gaining weight/strenght/muscle much faster than I expected too.

No one has yet told me what's supposedly wrong with gaining weight by working out, I really, really don't get it at all. How can it be healthier to stop moving and let all my muscles melt away? It makes no sense whatsoever.

I think either I or you are missing something here and I'd like to know who is missing what.

By the way, F1, how much do you weigh if you don't mind me asking and how many calories a day do you eat?

Thanks

[shashibala]

I could be wrong, but I think "gaining weight you're not supposed to have" is referring to weight gained from unhealthy food rather than from muscle.
You may actually be agreeing with each other. :)

[raweater]

But I think it's obvious I'm not eating unhealthy food, to me it sounded like they were saying that gaining muscle weight is unhealthy or dangerous, so I must be misudnerstanding something.

kinteet & cara4art, could you please explain what you meant by gaining weight you're not supposed to have is unhealthy? I'd really, really like to know what you meant by that.

[Revvell]

You seem to be taking what Richard said personally. I didn't get he was talking about you. I got he was talking in general.... how some, as Shashibala said, eat wrong and gain excess poundage from that.

There's also something called functional muscle meaning learning to use bodyweight for working out and he's doing and not just lifting for the sake of gaining non-functional muscle.

I use to work out 4-5 hours a day, 6-7 days a week with a partner. My partner was 5'4" and weighed in at about 197. He could lift quite heavily. One day he went to work doing some manual labor with his father. He was amazed and embarrassed that he had all this muscle and these "old guys" (older than he, whatever that was) who had long, rangy muscles could do waaaay more than he. They had functional muscles built on doing stuff with their bodies rather than what one does in the gym.

I'm sure Richard will correct me if I'm wrong.

For more, check out the Primal Play thread on this site.

Revvell

[tiffanybiffanypiffany]

aww silly. well i don't have any advice because i would die if i looked like a body builder, but all i can say is ....hoch fünf!!!

(its high five in german)

[paulieGB]

Hey, raweater.

Congrats on your muscle gain.
I would love to know what your diet looks like protein and fat %.
Im also trying to gain weight/muscle.

Cheers, Paulie.

[Eva]

Yeah -- saw you're up to 146 -- can't wait to see when you get to your goal!

[raweater]

Hey, raweater.

Congrats on your muscle gain.
I would love to know what your diet looks like protein and fat %.
Im also trying to gain weight/muscle.

Cheers, Paulie.

Thanks. I'm not to happy with my diet now as I have close to 80% of calories from fat which according to some doctors (that support and promote the raw diet) is very dangerous and raw foodist with this much fat in their diet are apprently dropping like flies. I've just gone back to making smoothies though and hopefully that will let me lower my fat intake, but I used to put lots of nuts, seeds and coconut oil in my smoothies so I'll try to cut the fat there too, but I'm now eating about 5000 calories/day and it's hard getting this much without a lot of fat.

The trick to gaining muscle is much more in working out than your diet, I have been raw about 3 years now, I used to weight around 170 when I started and rapidly fell to 135 as I was no longer working out.

I had tried eating as much as I could yet my weight remained stable. It's only when I started to workout again that I started gaining about 2 lbs/week.

When working out for weight gain, it's important to:
-Do the big three exercises: bench press, squats & deadlifts
-Choose a weight you can lift between 4-6 times before failure
-Not work the same muscles 2 days in a row, muscles grow during rest time and shrink during lifting, if you only lift without rest, you're making yourself weaker
-Eat a lot, but this will come automatically as a result of lifting weights

Hope this helps

[raweater]

Yeah -- saw you're up to 146 -- can't wait to see when you get to your goal!

Thanks, I had set a goal of getting to 160 by July 31st but it looks like I'll exceed that goal!

[rawstrength]

Raweater - I would love to see some progress pics when you reach your goal!

[Eva]

Raweater - I would love to see some progress pics when you reach your goal!

Me too!!! :)

[paulieGB]

Thnaks for the reply raweater,

Do you think you would be putting on weight eating low fat ?

I have also upped my fat intake over the last week and have put some weight on.
Over the last 3 days my fat % has been over 30% and to be honest i have felt moody, so not happy with that.
I did start working out about 2 weeks ago but i am sure its the high fat that has put the weight on me and not the working out (or maybe both).
Well i am going to have to drop the fat% down again im going to go for 15% which will be just adding 30grams of sprouted hamp seeds to my usuall greens and fruit e.t.c, and see what happens, it would be cool if i could put on weight with a low fat diet.

Paulie.

[raweater]

You can put on weighrt with low fat and that's actually ideal, what matters is the amount of calories you are eating, not the amount of fat. How many calories a day are you consuming? I'm around 5000/day these days.

[paulieGB]

Hey,
Im lucky if i get 2000.
Wow how do you get 5000 ?
well i guess thats from all the fats, i cant see how you can get 5000 calories from eating low fat though.

Paulie.

[RawSinger]

Just flippin through the threads....

Random thought: I wonder what 5000 calories worth of spinach looks like....? :eek:

raweater: I see you're up to 148; rawesome job!! I too, would like to see progress pics!! Keep up the good work :)

[raweater]

Hey,
Im lucky if i get 2000.
Wow how do you get 5000 ?
well i guess thats from all the fats, i cant see how you can get 5000 calories from eating low fat though.

Paulie.

You're going to need quite a bit more calories than that to gain weight/muscle. What does your workout look like (exercises, number of sets and reps, etc.)? If you're working out properly it should automatically cause you to need 500-2000 calories more per day depending on how much you workout. Bodybuilding.com has a great exercise forum to get advice one exercises, but of course ignore their nutritional advice which is horrible and based on myths (they didn't believe how much I lift when I said I was raw vegan, I had to post a video to prove it because according to them I should be super weak and unable to gain muscle, but I've been there several months and they're now seeing I am making rapid gains).

To get 5000 calories I do indeed have a lot of calories from fat (about a whopping 75%) but this is not as damaging when you workout which burns the fat for energy use, but I am trying to get my fat % lower.

I'm about 90% raw so I do have a bit of cooked food, but my raw meals for a day can look like this:
-Smoothie (600 cals)
-4 bananas with chocolate syrup (500 cals, one of my new meal to increase sugar and lower fat)
-Smoothie (600 cals)
-Stuffed tomatoes (1000 cals)
-Milkshake (800 cals)
-Smoothie (600 cals)

So that's 4100 calories there spread accross 6 meals (you should be eating at least 5-6 meals a day to provide sustained energy, not the typical 3 meals which feeds the body in big shocks and then lets it starve for hours which is not natural at all).

I hope this helps, feel free to ask if you have any questions, I struggled on my first 2 years raw not knowing what to do to get my weight back and I've clearly found the solution now.

RawSinger: I know a box of 142 grams of spinach is only 15 calories, it would take 333 boxes ($1000 a day) of spinach like that for 5000 calories!

[girl81]

What caused you to drop down to 130lbs?
What is in your 600 cal smoothie?

[raweater]

What caused you to drop down to 130lbs?
What is in your 600 cal smoothie?

Raw food and no longer working out made me fall to 130 (ironically, a side effect of junk food was that it allowed me to maintain my muscle mass without working out, I had stopped working out a few years before going raw, but when I went raw is when I rapidly fell to 130 and lost it all).

My smoothies often change or I get sick of them, but it can be:
2 bananas (200 calories)
~1 cup frozen fruits (100 calories)
macadamia nuts (200 calories)
1 T hemp seeds, 1 t chia seeds (100 calories)
1 T coconut oil (100 calories)
-Few handfuls of spinach (~0 calories)
Salt and green stevia powder (0 calories)

OK so that's 700, but they usually look like that.

[iamacranberry]

I imagine if you throw in loads of sprouts, soaked grains, and seeds...and base it on dense fruits like bananas, you can easily get a very calorie-dense smoothie.

[LifeNourishment]

You're going to need quite a bit more calories than that to gain weight/muscle. What does your workout look like (exercises, number of sets and reps, etc.)? If you're working out properly it should automatically cause you to need 500-2000 calories more per day depending on how much you workout. Bodybuilding.com has a great exercise forum to get advice one exercises, but of course ignore their nutritional advice which is horrible and based on myths (they didn't believe how much I lift when I said I was raw vegan, I had to post a video to prove it because according to them I should be super weak and unable to gain muscle, but I've been there several months and they're now seeing I am making rapid gains).

To get 5000 calories I do indeed have a lot of calories from fat (about a whopping 75%) but this is not as damaging when you workout which burns the fat for energy use, but I am trying to get my fat % lower.

I'm about 90% raw so I do have a bit of cooked food, but my raw meals for a day can look like this:
-Smoothie (600 cals)
-4 bananas with chocolate syrup (500 cals, one of my new meal to increase sugar and lower fat)
-Smoothie (600 cals)
-Stuffed tomatoes (1000 cals)
-Milkshake (800 cals)
-Smoothie (600 cals)

So that's 4100 calories there spread accross 6 meals (you should be eating at least 5-6 meals a day to provide sustained energy, not the typical 3 meals which feeds the body in big shocks and then lets it starve for hours which is not natural at all).

I hope this helps, feel free to ask if you have any questions, I struggled on my first 2 years raw not knowing what to do to get my weight back and I've clearly found the solution now.

RawSinger: I know a box of 142 grams of spinach is only 15 calories, it would take 333 boxes ($1000 a day) of spinach like that for 5000 calories!

Wow! You're really bombarding your digestive system there. Especially if you do that everyday without giving your digestive and circulatory systems a rest. And if you're not resting those systems, how are you certain you're actually assimilating all of that massive amount of raw material into your bloodstream, and also what about allowing sufficient time for your circulatory system to eliminate cellular excrement, toxins, etc., in an adequate manner? I'm not trying to be aggressive but I'm quite curious about all of this.

Also, have you read into any of the Raw Food body builders such as Stephen Arlin?

[iamacranberry]

Wow! You're really bombarding your digestive system there. Especially if you do that everyday without giving your digestive and circulatory systems a rest. And if you're not resting those systems, how are you certain you're actually assimilating all of that massive amount of raw material into your bloodstream, and also what about allowing sufficient time for your circulatory system to eliminate cellular excrement, toxins, etc., in an adequate manner? I'm not trying to be aggressive but I'm quite curious about all of this.

Also, have you read into any of the Raw Food body builders such as Stephen Arlin?

I have to agree there. For the sake of this thread...as I realise to those who read the other thread where there's a similar discussion going on my saying this here would be redundant.

[raweater]

Wow! You're really bombarding your digestive system there. Especially if you do that everyday without giving your digestive and circulatory systems a rest. And if you're not resting those systems, how are you certain you're actually assimilating all of that massive amount of raw material into your bloodstream, and also what about allowing sufficient time for your circulatory system to eliminate cellular excrement, toxins, etc., in an adequate manner? I'm not trying to be aggressive but I'm quite curious about all of this.

Also, have you read into any of the Raw Food body builders such as Stephen Arlin?

The human body isn't made to sit on a chair all day and consume only 2000 calories/day, that's just a result of today's common unhealthy lifestyle that causes people to be inactive and that is very dangerous (lack of exercise is the cause of 250,000 deaths a year in USA). In nature we would be consuming much closer to what I currently eat if not more. For example I remember seeing somewhere that active dogs need close to 10,000 calories a day. That's how the body is meant to eat. I also eat 6-9 smaller meals, not 3 enormous ones which is damaging to health, even on a 2000 calorie diet, we are made to eat throughout the day, not in 3 huge jolts.

About eliminating toxins, it is the lack of exercise that would cause this problem, exercises releases toxins (I noticed when I started working out again, as I had stopped for a few years, the first few days I was peeing quite dark, so I can only assume the exercise released toxins that were trapped in my body, and it as not due to dehydration or excess vitamins which can also cause dark pee).

[raweater]

I have to agree there. For the sake of this thread...as I realise to those who read the other thread where there's a similar discussion going on my saying this here would be redundant.

What thread are you referring to?

Also please see my reply above, what's not normal is eating only 2000 calories a day, if you're eating 2000 calories a day you're probably not getting much if any exercise, especially for guys which burn more calories. Eating 2000 calories a day is only normal in the sense that most others eat so little due to lack of physical activity. Just like eating SAD food is normal in the sense that most others do it. When you're very physically active, it is simply impossible to eat only 2000 calories a day, energy doesn't come out of thin air or no one would be paying for electricity and gas or have to eat at all, energy comes from the food we eat, the more energy you spend, the more you have to eat, there's no way around it.

[paulieGB]

Hello,

i disagree.

I think the most important thing is the quality of the food we eat, and not the quantity.

Theres two raw vegans that i can think of, both have very well built bodys, they are Richard blackman (F1)and the other is Nature love, Nature love did two audio interviews and has pictures on the gone raw forum / site ( if you havent heard of him ).
Now Richard only eats one meal a day or every other day,
And nature love has cucumber and kale juice in the morning and one meal at night which is LOADS of greens which he wraps around things like olives or sprouts., and he also drinks grass juices.

So they both only eat one meal a day,

They are both eating very little very few calories and they look VERY well healthy and strong and very well built with muscle.

Im not sure about the foods that richard eats but nature love eats LOTS of greens infact his whole diet is like 95% greens, it seams to me that he is eating very high quality food and thats all his body needs to fuel itself and build and repair his muscle, and he does work out with weights by the way.

I personally think eatting LOTS of callories puts alot of stress on your body , it makes your body work that much harder to get rid of all the food and that burns up alot of energy / calories.
So i actually dont think we need all this food the 6 meals a day e.t.c to build muscle.

now IM not an example of this, because i am having problems even staying 100% raw at the moment,
but i WILL put this way of eating into action very soon and get back to you with how i am getting on.

Paulie.

[raweater]

Firstly, how much does Richard weigh? From his pictures I highly doubt he'd be over 160 which is quite light. He may be lean but isn't that big in terms of muscles. I'd be curious to know how much he can lift also with conventional exercises like bench press and squats, although I'm quite sure he doesn't do exercises with "normal" weights like barbells and dumbbells.

About quality VS quantity, this defies all laws of physics and therefor cannot be true. Energy comes from calories, not quality of nutrients, that's a basic law of physics which cannot be violated no matter how much you try. I've seen people eat only Mc Donalds and Burger king and never eat a fruit or veggie and they look very muscular with almost no fat (I was one of them, I know). When I went raw on only 2000 calories a day, I lost 40 lbs, most of it muscle, within 1-2 months. As I went back to 4000-5000 calories a day I put on about 15 lbs of muscle.

What you are saying is like "If I bought the best quality gas for my car, I could do 100 miles on a tablespoon of gas", I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way. Both Richard and Nature look fairly light in weight, even though they are lean. Does anyone know how many calories a day those guys eat and how much they weigh?

Look at it this way, if you do an exercise that burns 500 calories, you're gonna have to eat at least 500 calories back or you will loose weight and be destroying your body as it literally eats itself, there's no way around that. Saying otherwise would mean energy is free and comes out of thin air, if this were true, no one would need gas, electricity, or food, but we do because energy doesn't come out of thin air, it comes from the food we eat. It's inevitable that both those guys are getting at least as much calories as they burn.

Don't forget my goal is to get to 160 lbs (and possibly/probably more once I'm there), and this can only be acheived by eating more calories than I burn and by lifting heavy weights (I tried EVERYTHING over 2 years to desperately get my weight back, this is the ONLY thing that has worked, everything else left me without gaining a single pound in 2 years, now I've gained close to 20 in just 2-3 months).

If your goal is to have a body like those guys then you may be ok with less calories, but you said you wanted to gain weight, and this is only possible by eating more calories than you burn, there's no way around that.

[paulieGB]

Hiya,

Nature weighs about 160, and from what he said he eats it doesnt look like much more than 500 calories.
and he does workout with weights, and im not sure how you can say he looks light in weight he is very well built . And in his interveiws he said he gets coments from people in the gym and they cant beleive hes only about 160 they think he looks about 200lbs.

And also when you eat alot of food, I personaly think that your body will be burning up ALOT of calories just to get rid of the food to digest it e.t.c.

so maybe we should give our bodys a rest from digesting and just feed it quality foods, just what we need.

maybe / maybe not. :)

[paulieGB]

some pics of Nature love =
lol i hope this works :)



http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/e39cb479f7.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/1eb0f0e248.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

[paulieGB]

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/f0f2adae0e.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/f42561d858.jpg (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/)

[oai]

oh my. wow. ok. just wow. http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q94/SHOE_tutorials/current%20emo/thboogie-1.gif must fan self now. http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q94/SHOE_tutorials/current%20emo/thlove.gif

[LifeNourishment]

The human body isn't made to sit on a chair all day and consume only 2000 calories/day, that's just a result of today's common unhealthy lifestyle that causes people to be inactive and that is very dangerous (lack of exercise is the cause of 250,000 deaths a year in USA). In nature we would be consuming much closer to what I currently eat if not more. For example I remember seeing somewhere that active dogs need close to 10,000 calories a day. That's how the body is meant to eat. I also eat 6-9 smaller meals, not 3 enormous ones which is damaging to health, even on a 2000 calorie diet, we are made to eat throughout the day, not in 3 huge jolts.

About eliminating toxins, it is the lack of exercise that would cause this problem, exercises releases toxins (I noticed when I started working out again, as I had stopped for a few years, the first few days I was peeing quite dark, so I can only assume the exercise released toxins that were trapped in my body, and it as not due to dehydration or excess vitamins which can also cause dark pee).

So why is that gorillas and many other large plant eating animals have no need to count calories yet we do? I personally think calories are nothing but a joke and its only purpose is to enslave people into its conceptualized indoctrination in order cause obsession. I believe it's all about quality like minerals, enzymes, vitamins and nutrients—not calories. Quality builds greater not quantity. You can eat all the large quantities of food you want, but if you aren't assimilating all or at least majority of it because you overload your digestive tract into clogged oblivion, then what difference does it make how great a quantity you eat? You'd just be wasting food.

I thought it was crazy when I read how there have been people who've been skinny their entire lives and have always ate huge amounts of food daily and never would gain any weight. Then they were advised to fast for a couple days to rest and allow the digestive tract to go through a cleansing phase. Upon breaking the fast they gained weight they never could because they were now able to take into their bodies more raw material nutrition through assimilation. So to me great to perfect assimilation is everything. Maybe I've been reading into Herbert M. Shelton and Arnold Ehret's teachings a little too much, I don't know. :D

[raweater]

Hiya,

Nature weighs about 160, and from what he said he eats it doesnt look like much more than 500 calories.
and he does workout with weights, and im not sure how you can say he looks light in weight he is very well built . And in his interveiws he said he gets coments from people in the gym and they cant beleive hes only about 160 they think he looks about 200lbs.

And also when you eat alot of food, I personaly think that your body will be burning up ALOT of calories just to get rid of the food to digest it e.t.c.

so maybe we should give our bodys a rest from digesting and just feed it quality foods, just what we need.

maybe / maybe not. :)

Raw food is self-digesting. Only cooked food requires significant calories to be digested (3 cooked meals/day = 8 hours of intensive physical activity, if I eat a cooked meal before a workout, I can't workout as all my energy is going to digest the cooked food, I lift half of what I usually lift if I eat a cooked meal, so I never eat cooked before a workout).

I can say that until I started working out and eating 4000+ cals/day I never put on even a pound and I tried and tried without results at all.

[raweater]

So why is that gorillas and many other large plant eating animals have no need to count calories yet we do? I personally think calories are nothing but a joke and its only purpose is to enslave people into its conceptualized indoctrination in order cause obsession. I believe it's all about quality like minerals, enzymes, vitamins and nutrients—not calories. Quality builds greater not quantity. You can eat all the large quantities of food you want, but if you aren't assimilating all or at least majority of it because you overload your digestive tract into clogged oblivion, then what difference does it make how great a quantity you eat? You'd just be wasting food.

I thought it was crazy when I read how there have been people who've been skinny their entire lives and have always ate huge amounts of food daily and never would gain any weight. Then they were advised to fast for a couple days to rest and allow the digestive tract to go through a cleansing phase. Upon breaking the fast they gained weight they never could because they were now able to take into their bodies more raw material nutrition through assimilation. So to me great to perfect assimilation is everything. Maybe I've been reading into Herbert M. Shelton and Arnold Ehret's teachings a little too much, I don't know. :D

No one needs to count calories at all, that's not what I said, I said to gain weight you need to be eating more calories than you're burning, that in no way at all means that you have to count them. Also, unless you're eating more calories than you're burning you cannot gain weight. Muscle is not made from vitamins and minerals, it's made from protein. I count my calories but just to keep records, I don't count them to decide how much I eat (I NEVER, EVER wake up saying "today I'm eating 5200 calories"), my body tells me how much it wants, I simply eat until my body tells me it's enough, some less active days it can be as little as 3500, but if I lift weights and ride my bike for 2 hours, then it will be over 5000 that my body will ask me for until I'm full. So you really can't say I count calories because I only listen to my body, and the only reason I count them is to keep a record of what I eat (I note the meals I eat and their calorie contents), it in no way at all determines how much I eat, my body/hunger determines that and nothing else.

Also don't forget or realize that eating 4000+ calories a day is not overloading the system, quite the opposite, eating 1500-2000 a day is underloading it as it probably means people eating so little are not very active and lack exercise which is the cause of 250,000 deaths/year in USA. When you're very active, you'll automatically need to eat more, it's inevitable (exactly like if you use your car more, you're going to have to put more gas in it than if you use it less or it will simply stop running). I once got a case of severe food poisoning a few months ago from eating a raw recipe on the 4th day in the fridge, I got very sick and for at least 3 days are about 100-400 calories a day, I had so little energy I could do nothing more than sit or rest. I wanted to workout, but with only 200 calories in my body that was more than impossible.

[raweater]

>The other thread where I told you to quit worrying about calorie numbers and just listen to your body...

I never, ever worry about calories and only listen to my body, you still do not understand why I "count" calories, ok, I'll stop saying I count them as that may be what's leading to confusion, I don't count my calories, I simply write down after each day how much I eat, see this part from my other reply:

"I count my calories but just to keep records, I don't count them to decide how much I eat (I NEVER, EVER wake up saying "today I'm eating 5200 calories"), my body tells me how much it wants, I simply eat until my body tells me it's enough, some less active days it can be as little as 3500, but if I lift weights and ride my bike for 2 hours, then it will be over 5000 that my body will ask me for until I'm full. So you really can't say I count calories because I only listen to my body, and the only reason I count them is to keep a record of what I eat (I note the meals I eat and their calorie contents), it in no way at all determines how much I eat, my body/hunger determines that and nothing else."

>On that other thread, I also mentioned that I'm a runner and average eating only 1600 calories a day when the "calculators" tell me I should be eating about 3000. So...I eat LESS than 2000 calories per day, and I exercise FAR more than the average person. I weigh 130 lbs, and most of it's muscle, because I look skinnier than people who weigh far less than me. So no, not impossible.

Firstly I don't know if you're male or female, females naturally need less calories, and at 130lbs body weight that will also contribute to you needing less calories (the more you weigh, the more you need to eat to maintain that weight), secondly, running doesn't require as much energy as lifting 200+ pounds over and over again, and thirdly I want to gain at least more than 20 lbs, so in your situation I agree that you do not need as much, but we don't have the same goals at all either.

>You're completely ignoring the speed of one's metabolism. 500 calories to a slow metabolism goes farther than 500 calories to someone whose metabolism goes through energy like an SUV goes through petrol...

I'm not ignoring that and understand that fully, but your diet and lifestyle affect the speed of your metabolism (it's not genetic), doing exercises like I do will inevitably speed it up considerably

>When you were eating 2000 kcal/day, what types of food were you eating?

Exactly the same foods I eat now, the only difference was I sat on a chair all day rather than lifting weights and biking daily.

>Calories can play a part, but as I've said before and will say now, they are NOT the only factor. The type of food you are eating affects the way your body digests it. Your metabolism speed is also a factor. I've also heard it suggested that timing is important.

I agree, when I ate junk food I was clearly eating a lot more than now when I eat raw food given the same level of activity. For example I could eat 2 HUGE bowls of SAD ice cream and still be hungry. With my raw ice creams, I'm usually packed full after 3-4 scoops (and that's when I'm very active, it's probably 2 scoops if I'm not active). And as I said your metabolism is controlled by how you eat and live. Timing is also important, it's best to eat 6 small meals every 2 hours than 3 large ones, that will normally cuase you to eat less.

>But the simple fact remains that we can do all the calculations in the world and STILL be missing something. We can make vitamin supplement pills so we don't have to eat vegetables, but we'll be missing phytonutrients we don't even know exist. We can count calories and grams fat and yada yada yada but we could still be overlooking something (such as the things I mentioned above).

I agree and disagree on this, I disagree that vitamin pills can replace vegetables because vitamin pills are made from petroleum like any pharmaceutical drug and actually cause disease (for example, vitamin C pills double cancer rate, because you're putting petroleum in your body, not vitamins, vitamins come from food, not some mad scientist lab turning petroleum into so called vitamins to exploit gullible consumers). I do agree that vegetables and fruits have thousands of millions of nutrients that humans haven't discovered. And again, I don't ever count calories, ever. I simply write down at the end of the day how much I ate, some days it's 3500, others it's 5500, other's it's 4000, I don't decide that, my body does, I simply write down what my body decided it needed for any particular day.

>My point is that listening to our bodies and BREAKING the addiction to calorie counting, carb counting, fat gram counting, or ANYTHING counting is the BEST way to go. This puts us at optimum level if we do it for long enough. Want to gain weight? Start eating more calorie-dense foods as part of what you eat. If I listen to my body on how MUCH to eat and nothing else, I will naturally eat more in calories of a dense, fatty food than I will of a light, leafy one....eg If I eat nothing but cashews one day and nothing but cantaloupe the next, my body will cause me to eat more calories on the day I eat just cashews, simply because the cashews are higher density foods.

Again, I don't count anything, I simply write it down at the end of the day for record purposes, that's all.

>If we just get obsessed with counting calories, we'll not only throw off the proportions of nutrients we're getting, but we'll probably be messing up some other things without even knowing about it.

I agree on that, I know fat people that count calories and choose junk food that has less calories thinking they'll loose weight, and they never do. Calories in food does not determine weight gain or weight loss, in my opinion, it is the calorie to nutrient ratio that determines that *for SAD eaters*, for example donuts have tons of calories and no nutrition, so you're just as hungry after eating it, and if it was 500 calories that's 500 calories more you'll have eaten by the end of the day as it was empty calories. That's why 0 calorie diet coke is extremely fattening and is well proven to make people fat by causing overeating, while you can eat tons of nuts which are 1000 calories a cup and not gain weight, because they fill you up and you won't want to eat something else, which would not be the case after 1000 calories of doughtnuts.

>I have a little brother who's 16 years old. You wouldn't believe how much this kid eats. But he's skinny as a rail. I eat maybe half what he does an weigh more...and he's taller than me. Case and point.

Again I don't know your age or sex so I can't compare you to your brother, but when you're young I think you need more calories, and he may be more physically active than you (you didn't mention that either which would be good to know), if he's doing sports all day, he will inevitably eat a lot more.

[kinteet]

Well...this has happened before on threads like this....were bodybuilding types come on here talking about bulking up on raw foods and all the other unnatural things that bodybuilders do to gain "muscle"....

Problem is....going raw brings you closer to nature so all the bodybuilding rules do not apply unless you want to continue to do unnatural things....animals in the wild don't have gyms or work out to get big, elephants don't take protien shakes to get big, they are born big and grow up big, it's their dna......us humans are tiny animals by nature and we should be happy with that all the bodybuiding stuff is cool if that's your thing and I'm not judging anybody but just know that people are going to make comments about it!

As far as my stats go, I'm not trying to be a "beefcake" I'm not even in the same game as Raweater...to be honest with you I wouldn't do that amount of damage to my body, plus I'm not a bodybuilder, have no intentions of becoming a bodybuilder and I don't train, eat like a bodybuilder so comparing me to one makes no sense....I'm 150lbs wet through and I'm happy with that, weight/size does not concern me and I'm not trying to be something else that will only last as long as I continue to do it, I'm into functional fitness and I'm having a blast just doing my thing, I only eat/drink when I need to and that's very little, for instants after my workout in the hot Texas heat I had a slice of water melon....and I loved every last piece of it, I don't count calories, protien or carbs, I don't need to, my body takes care of all that!...all this talk about calories...if calories were the be all and end all then obese people would be world class athletes!!!

Working out doesn't build muscle, if it did the bodybuilding supplements industry would be out of business, what we think is muscle is nothing but excess water and fats, etc....go 100% raw and you'll find that out real quick...and speaking lifting weights the most I've benched ever was 305lbs and that was last year.....anyway raweater, do what makes you happy but know that the bodybuilding metality may not mix well here.

Here's what I'm up to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLdXKydlfzE

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a84/Bigbwii/121107fne6.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a84/Bigbwii/121107eau7.jpg

Be good y'all

F1

[raweater]

Thanks for replying F1, but you've still never explained how lifting weights is "causing so much damage" to my body, I just really, really don't get it. Do you think I take protein powders, supplements, etc? I don't, I eat 90% raw food and don't even take raw hemp protein as it's not natural, hemp seeds are natural so that's one of the things I eat.

I'm really, really dying to know why you say lifting weights is causing "so much damage" to my body, I just don't get it at all.

I can tell you my body was much more "damaged" when I was not working out which is extremely unhealthy.

You also say working out doesn't build muscle, yet I've put on nearly 20 lbs in 2-3 months, am visibly more muscular and stronger (again, I take no supplements, no protein powders, and eat 90% raw but I've been 100% these past few days).

I understand we don't have the same goals, but I don't understand why you say lifting weights is unhealthy, unless you think I'm taking all those silly supplements, but I don't take anything other than raw food and very minimal relatively "healthy" cooked food.

Please be clear on what you say is "causing so much damage" to my body because I'm very intrigued and asked you several times in this thread and you didn't answer that part.

Thanks for replying.

[kinteet]

Raweater....You seem to be getting yourself tied up in knots trying to explain yourself to folks on this thread that don't share your goals, I didn't say the weights cause damage, well actually they do and that's the whole point of using them right, you should know that..... stuffing yourself silly just to get calories does....your also not 100% raw so yes your still gonna add weight....go 100% raw and see what happens naturally, other people on this thread have given you very good advice so re-read it if you need to, having said that, if your into the whole "eat big to get big" mentality then go for it and ignore everybody!!!!...if your truly happy doing what your doing then just get on with it and ignore everybody!!!

peace

F1

[raweater]

I simply listen to my body and eat what it asks for (which simply happens to be around 4000-5000 calories, who says that if you counted your calories it wouldn't be 4000? you said yourself you don't count them so how would you even know?), I NEVER, EVER, EVER force myself to eat if I'm not hungry, so I still don't understand what's "causing so much damage". I eat when I'm hungry and stop when I'm full, it's as simple as that...

Did you think I was forcing myself to eat after I'm no longer hungry? I have never done that and am not able to even if I try (I know, many raw foods are so good that I'd want to eat some after I'm full, but I simply can't or I'd make myself sick probably).

I'm not at all trying to argue, I just don't understand why listening to my body would be damaging.

[kinteet]

Good for you!

See ya...

F1

[raweater]

Alright then, it looks like you won't answer my question. Thanks anyway.

I think either I or you is missing something, I would have liked to know who's missing what but you no longer seem to want to talk...

I really would have liked to know what's "so damaging" as if I knew I'd stop doing whatever you say I'm doing that's damaging if I'm even doing that you say is damaging.

Since it doesn't look like you want to answer anymore, would anyone else tell me what would be so damaging about lifting weights and listening to my body?

Someone is missing something here, either me or F1, I don't know if he thinks I'm doing things I'm not doing or what, or things that I am doing which I'm not aware are damaging...

[raweater]

Please, if anyone knows what is damaging in what I'm doing I want to know ASAP as I eat this way and workout to improve my health, not destroy it, so if I am causing damage please someone, anyone, tell me what I'm doing that's causing damage as it doesn't seem F1 wants to tell me for some reason...

He did say something like "stuffing myself full" is damaging, but I'm only listening to my body, if I ate any less I'd be dying of hunger, I spend a lot of energy so inevitably I'm going to have to eat more than someone who sits at a desk all day.

How is eating to my hunger damaging? I really don't get it and would like to know if it truely is damaging.

[girl81]

Raw food and no longer working out made me fall to 130 (ironically, a side effect of junk food was that it allowed me to maintain my muscle mass without working out, I had stopped working out a few years before going raw, but when I went raw is when I rapidly fell to 130 and lost it all).


Had you been on the calorie level you are on now, your weight would not have dropped, correct?
So really, it wasn't raw that caused the drop, it was calorie level.

[raweater]

Had you been on the calorie level you are on now, your weight would not have dropped, correct?
So really, it wasn't raw that caused the drop, it was calorie level.

That's partly correct, it is not raw food that made me loose weight, but it's not the calorie intake only either. At the time I wasn't physically active and was probably eating 2000 or less calories a day, but the only possible way for me to eat 4000 or more calories a day is to burn that many calories by working out, I simply cannot eat that much if I don't burn the calories. When I wasn't active, I was packed full after 2000 calories and couldn't eat a crumb more.

I must say I had kept my muscle mass for years without working out while eating junk food, because you can eat tons of junk food and you'll never feel full because it's not food and only food satisfies hunger, so even though I wasn't active I was still eating probably 3000-4000 calories a day, but I was very slowly gaining weight in the form of fat also, but wasn't loosing much muscle. With raw food, which is real food, it's so filling you can only eat as much as your body needs before it gives you a clear "I'm full, stop feeding me" signal, and working out is what makes me need to eat more food before getting that signal.

I found that many others on raw trying to keep/gain weight realized the same thing: only weight lifting or demanding physical exercises allow you to keep/gain weight on raw, and I struggled for 3 years to get my weight back, and only when I started doing this did it start comming back, finaly!

[raweater]

"You obviously do more than you claim here, as your past posts (eg the one where you "had to" eat a SAD pizza in order to fill a 2000kcal deficit...remember that one?) indicate that you are deliberately trying to fulfill a certain daily requirement of kcal. I beg to differ--you DO count calories."

It was not at all to fulfiull a certain number of calories, it was because my body was saying "I need 2000 calories of food immediately", I had an extreme hunger as I hadn't eaten in many many hours, it was not to reach a magic number, it was because I was extremely hunger and I knew that even 2000 calories would not satisfy my hunger fully.

Look, yesterday I barely moved at all, I just went to the grocery store by bike, and my calorie intake was only 3300, if I count calories why did I not eat 5000 like when I'm active? Because I don't and never count calories, I only listen to my body, and yesterday it was satisfied after only 3300.

-------------------
Brother = 120lbs, 5'5", not active at all.
Me = Female, mid-twenties, vigorous exercise at least 1hr every day.

Brother = eats probably 3000-4000kcal daily, mostly in the form of junk
Me = about 1600kcal, 80% raw.

Brother = can't gain weight even if he tries
Me = 5'3" and 130lbs, mostly muscle.
-------------------

You didn't mention his age which is just as Important, a 10-18 year old will need more than a 18+ year old. You did however mention he eats junk food, and anyone eating junk food will automatically eat MUCH more calories than if they were eating raw food, put him on a raw diet and he will fall to less than 2000 calories a day unless he gets active (I was just like him, eating tons of junk food and unable to gain weight).

I'd really like it if you stopped saying I count calories when I never do. I see in no way how buying a pizza is "counting calories", that's like saying when you make a recipe that happens to have say 600 calories, you're "counting calories", it's not, I simply knew my body wanted at least 2000 calories (I can tell from my hunger if my body wants 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 calories, etc.). I "journal" calories if you prefer, I simply write down everything I eat, sometimes it's 3000 calories, sometimes it's 5000, somtimes it's 4000, but I never have a pre planned idea of how much I'll eat, only my body can tell me when it's satisfied. If I counted calories I'd be eating the same amount every day, which never ever happens.

Just look at my last 10 journaled calorie intakes:
4300, 5500, 4300, 4500, 4100, 4800, 5300, 4500, 4000, 3300 (yesterday)

How can you say I count calories with such variations from day to day? Yesterday was the lowest as I sat on a chair all day except for a short bike ride to the grocery store. The 5500 day I rode my bike for a long time and did a lot of weight lifting. It's my level of activity that determines how much food my body asks for which in turn determines how much I eat. This is in no way counting calories.

I could stop journaling calories tomorrow and I'd still be eating exactly the same way, it would not affect how or how much I eat in anyway whatsoever, in fact I only started doing this like a few weeks ago but I was eating just as much before. I journal my calories for these reasons:
-To see if my calorie intake is going up or down according to what my body asks for
-To keep a log of all the things I've recently eaten, this helps me decide what to eat when I'm undecided, I can check the journal and see "oh 7 days ago I had a spinach curry which was really good, I'll make that again now"
-But not to acheive any specific calorie intake, I have never, ever done that, so please stop saying I do. I find it annoying that you seem to think you know my life more than myself. I don't tell you what you do when I don't even know what you do...

[kinteet]

JUSS SHUD UP "N" TRAIN!!!!.....that's what I say....your making this so COMPLEX!!!!!....who cares at the end of the day....if your getting the results you want then why try to fix something that ain't broke and who cares what anybody else thinks or says about it!

You can debate with people here till your blue in the face and what will it prove....for one it'll prove your spending too much time on the computor that you could of been spending having fun working out....ha,ha!

Btw you keep implying I'm ignoring your questions...well maybe that's because I've already answered them...read the posts carefully again!

Anyway if I've still not answered your questions then tough because it doesn't matter what I say anyway!!!

Be good

F1

[iamacranberry]

Like I said...with a quote that references "needing" 2000 kcal (a calorie number) to fulfill some deficit, it's hard to believe you don't count calories. If that isn't calorie counting, would you kindly explain what, in your opinion, IS calorie counting?

Listening to your body, by the way generally is a method which is done without reference to calories...eg you consciously ignore how many calories are in things and think in terms of how you feel as your main indicator....not in numbers of calories.

[raweater]

Let's say you've been really busy all day and haven't eaten for 8 hours and are extremely hungry, would it not be obvious to you that eating a few grapes is not going to satisfy that hunger in any way? You know you will need a lot of food to satisfy hunger due to not eating for 8 hours. Also, the only reason I said the pizza is 2000 calories is because it's written on the box. I can also tell when I'm as hungry as I was that the only way to satisfy that hunger is with 2000 calories or more, I know by experience, not because I count calories (as I said I only started journaling calories a few weeks ago, but before the same thing has happened and I knew I needed an enormous amount of food, one of those times I had made a huge, huge smoothie).

In my onipion calorie counting means "I'm going to eat exactly X calories every single day no matter if I'm still hungry after or full before getting there". But as you can see, my calorie intake can vary by as much as 2000 from day to day.

All I can say is I don't care at all about how many calories I eat, I simply eat until I'm satisfied, and just happen to journal my meals and calories for other reasons.

[iamacranberry]

And that is where our definitions apparently differ...for anyone using calories as a measure of importance is not listening to his/her body but using calories to determine whether daily needs are going to be met.

And sometimes I have been surprised by what satisfies me...I'll think I'm really hungry one day and find that after a salad or something I actually don't want anything more...or vice versa. I beg to differ; low calorie foods in some situations are quite satisfying, if you are truly listening to your body for which ones you ought to be eating.

[Eva]

If anyone cares -- my definition of calorie counting is -- counting calories! Not to be rude, but this seems to make perfect sense to me.

iamacranberry: I completely agree with listening to your body and eating what it wants. But it seems raweater (and correct me if I'm wrong) has a specific goal of weighing a certain weight. This may not be what his/her body naturally wants. But that doesn't mean raweater doesn't have that option to have whatever goal he/she sees fit.

Just like some people want to be smaller than their bodies would lead them to be, even on raw food. Whatever, I say.

It seems the two of you simply have different goals, and that's okay! :eek: ;)

[And now I'm going to run away before you guys throw tomatoes, grapes or bazillion-calorie smoothies at me!!! :D ]

[raweater]

And that is where our definitions apparently differ...for anyone using calories as a measure of importance is not listening to his/her body but using calories to determine whether daily needs are going to be met.

And sometimes I have been surprised by what satisfies me...I'll think I'm really hungry one day and find that after a salad or something I actually don't want anything more...or vice versa. I beg to differ; low calorie foods in some situations are quite satisfying, if you are truly listening to your body for which ones you ought to be eating.

Well as I said I want to put at least another 10-15 pounds and that's not going to be possible eating 100 calorie salads (unless I eat 40 a day which I don't have time to). I know that when I wasn't as physically active as I am now what you said was true, some low calorie things would fill me up, but if you ever spent as much energy as I do now I think you'd understand. And again, I only listen to my body to determine when I'm hungry or full.

Please remember that I spend enormous amounts of energy each day, that alone will invetibly require a higher calorie intake, but on top of that I want to gain a lot of weight, which adds even more.

[raweater]

Eva: Thank you for understanding we have different goals.

About what my body wants, I certainly don't thinkit wanted to weigh 130 lbs like at the time I just sat all day doing nothing physically, that's extremely damagin to health (and is the cause of 250,000 deaths a year in USA). Anyone that starts doing intense physical activity will gain weight naturally, it's inevitable. The human body isn't made to be a muscle-less blob of bones like I was at 130 lbs, it's made to have muscle and move as I am now. What I was doing that made me weigh 130 lbs is extremely dangerous and unhealthy, what I'm doing now is much more natural (lifting weights is not completely natural but it simulates being active in nature) and healthy.

When I started being active again I was peeing very dark for the first few days, I can only assume the exercise has triggered the release of stored toxins that required exercise to be released.

[raweater]

Calorie counting is not at all a way to gain weight, exercise and weight lifting is. I've gained a lot of weight before I started journaling calories, and I don't count them.

I just want an idea of how much energy is in the food I make to avoid mistakes like that lentil soup I made the other day which tuerned out to be 200 calories when I expected 700 and a total waste of time as I was obviously just as hungry after and wasted 10 minutes making it.