Rawfoodists have teeth problems?

[goingrawchelle]

I just learned that this rawfood can lead to teeth problems? Has anyone heard of this? It was a sales pitch on tooth soap and tooth powder. Hmmm...just wondering. Thanks.

[Eva]

Mmmmm, well I guess it depends on how you go about it. Sipping on a GS all day and sipping on lemon water all day is just adding acid and sugar to your teeth -- a continuous stream. That's not good!

I generally swish water around in my mouth after everything I eat and only drink lemon water all at once. (I chug it!) Otherwise, my drink of choice is pure water.

And I oil pull -- which is sort of unrelated to raw food but I found out about it here -- which has vastly improved the health of my teeth and gums.

[goingrawchelle]

what is oil pulling? i think i've seen that here.

[Eva]

Go to www.oilpulling.com to get all of the details. I swish a tablespoon of sesame oil around in my mouth 1-2 times a day, then spit it out and either brush my teeth or just gargle a touch of salt water.

It pulls out the toxins in the mouth and on the teeth. I can tell a difference in the way I feel when I do it. I just feel cleaner. :)

[Liserpiece]

I OP as well and my teeth feel great. In fact it has improved the sensitivity probs and seriously whitened them. :) There is a OP thread over in the "Other Topics" section, it has tons of info and a challenge going on.

[goingrawchelle]

the results sound great but I'm not sure about the feel and taste of the oil in my mouth. :rolleyes: does it matter what kind of oil I use?

[Eva]

goingrawchelle -- I was thoroughly grossed out the first time or two. Now it's like nothing, no big deal. I use sesame oil. I honestly can't remember what the other "ideal" oil is, but I know some people also use coconut oil. I actually haven't tried that...

But it's great.

Of course, I'm all for all of the random healing/detoxing techniques. :D

[Liserpiece]

It's really not bad at all. I use raw coconut oil and the taste is nice. I pull while doing my hair, which takes about 10 minutes and keeps me occupied while swishing :) I spit it out and brush my teeth and feel good to go. I know it sounds strange, swishing a mouthful of oil, but your spit kind of thins it and it feels much like any other liquid.

[goingrawchelle]

OK thanks for the replies. I'm going to give it a try. :cool:

[Ginger]

If you are eating enough minerals via green leafy vegetables and preferably including wild foods & sea vegetables you won't have teeth problems.

[Raene]

I think it's mostly the thought that raw foodists only eat fruit and the sugars eat your teeth. I've seen raw foodists with gorgeous teeth. I think it's all about finding the balance and also brushing several times a day. I brush after fruits.

[Raene]

But by the way, you guys are sooo amazing. I love learning new things. Oil pulling sounds so awesome!! I found a cool article here: http://www.earthclinic.com/Remedies/oil_pulling.html
really makes sense, thanks for the new info!!

[Theogirl]

Besides sesame, the other oil for pulling is sunflower. Take 1 tbsp.

[Carlsbad]

The first time I tried oil pulling, I almost threw up. But now I don't even notice the taste. I do it for 20 minutes while I'm getting ready in the morning. I'm going to try to do it more consistently, because I've heard it helps your skin clear up. I use sesame oil because I couldn't find coldpressed sunflower oil.

I used toothsoap for a while, and liked it. But my teeth were losing their brightness/whiteness, and I was worried that my breath was stinky (toothsoap is soap, so it's not minty at all, even in the minty flavors). So I went back to regular ol' Crest.

[iamacranberry]

I can tell you that I tried oil pulling for over a month, and it did NOT help. I do not recommend it. And it's true that many raw foodists tend to have teeth problems...BUT, if I had to guess, it's probably more due to the fact that many raw fooders refuse to use toothpaste rather than the diet itself.

[earth_sista]

I can tell you that I tried oil pulling for over a month, and it did NOT help. I do not recommend it. And it's true that many raw foodists tend to have teeth problems...BUT, if I had to guess, it's probably more due to the fact that many raw fooders refuse to use toothpaste rather than the diet itself.

what was your problem with oil pulling? i've never tried it, but am curious about it...

i don't think the problem lies in not using toothpaste. i don't use conventional toothpaste, but rather, a mixture of hydrogen peroxide, sea salt, and baking soda. my teeth are great-no problems.

i have noticed that when i do high sugar-lots of fruit, my teeth feel extra sensitve.

[RawMistress]

I dont see how? Junk food and meat is not good for your teeth.
Maybe some r-foodist dont brush as much as they should?

[sebzzz]

i don't think the problem lies in not using toothpaste. i don't use conventional toothpaste, but rather, a mixture of hydrogen peroxide, sea salt, and baking soda. my teeth are great-no problems.

i have noticed that when i do high sugar-lots of fruit, my teeth feel extra sensitve.

Earth_sista, I'm interested to know the difference and the advantages of your home made toothpaste. I've been raw for 3 months now and starting to worry about teeth problems. My gum was already very low even before starting raw to the point where I have to brush with a toothpaste especially for that, sensodine. It works fine and since I use this paste my teeth and gum don't hurt anymore.

However, since raw, I have to put smaller and smaller amounts on my toothbrush because the taste of it is so strong now that my taste sense is more sensible.

So, I would be interested to know if there is any known benefits of a home made paste.

The best case scenario would be having my gum grow back so I wouldn't have to worry about that at all. I'll try oil pulling. Any other things that could help will be taken in consideration.

[tallen]

I have already experienced increased tooth sensitivity and as an adult now have several cavities. I have been high raw for a year and a half and do consume a great deal of fruits during the day. My dentist has recommended I begin rinsing with plain water everytime I eat and using a waterpik to flush the traces of food and sugar out. I just went out and got it today and will be starting this tomorrow. HTH!

Tee

[Arky]

Have you read this thread, goingrawchelle?:

http://tinyurl.com/ywwqy3


J.

[earth_sista]

Earth_sista, I'm interested to know the difference and the advantages of your home made toothpaste. I've been raw for 3 months now and starting to worry about teeth problems. My gum was already very low even before starting raw to the point where I have to brush with a toothpaste especially for that, sensodine. It works fine and since I use this paste my teeth and gum don't hurt anymore.

However, since raw, I have to put smaller and smaller amounts on my toothbrush because the taste of it is so strong now that my taste sense is more sensible.

So, I would be interested to know if there is any known benefits of a home made paste.

The best case scenario would be having my gum grow back so I wouldn't have to worry about that at all. I'll try oil pulling. Any other things that could help will be taken in consideration.


it's hard for me to say if there's been a whole lot of differences. i haven't used conventional toothpaste for about 5 years. before doing the homemade stuff, which has been a recent change, i used "natural" brands like Toms.

i found my "toothpaste recipe" from another raw forum and it seems to work great for me. i've never really ever had teeth problems, though.

i can only speak for myself. im not sure if this would help you or not. you can always try it out, see how it goes..

[iamacranberry]

I dont see how? Junk food and meat is not good for your teeth.
Maybe some r-foodist dont brush as much as they should?

That is what I suspect.

[iamacranberry]

Homemade and natural toothpastes are great alternatives...I use a natural toothpaste myself, but admittedly it's expensive--but it works, and it doesn't contain things like fluoride and sodium lauryl/laureth sulfate. I know that many raw fooders are also into the whole natural hygiene thing, and as such their practices as stipulated by those teachings might lead to teeth problems--not their diet.

[Arky]

Do you really believe the reason such an enormous number of raw-foodists experience dental problems is because of poor brushing? Why, then, do so many indigenous cultures, whose members may not ever brush their teeth during the course of an entire lifetime, have remarkably good dental health, provided they consume their traditional diet, ensuring that they get their full compliment of minerals and fat-soluble activators and vitamins? (note that I am not suggesting that raw-foodists can safely dispense with brushing, since this makes a useful contribution towards dental health and there is no reason to discontinue such a simple daily task. I am simply pointing out that the anthropological evidence demonstrates that it is possible, in a fully-nutritious diet, to maintain good dental health without necessarily needing to brush. The critical point here is that raw-foodists invariably assume that just because they have dispensed with processed foods, and are eating only wholefoods, this automatically makes their diet fully nutritious, which is not necessarily the case, despite all the popular claims to the contrary).

Why do so many raw foodists experience dental health problems which, when they were eating a more mundane and conventional diet, they may never have experienced, even though their dental hygiene habits have remained 100% identical, throughout their transition to, and consumption of, a raw diet?

If you eat correctly, without missing out on critical nutrients, your saliva contains protective factors which keep oral bacteria to a relative minimum, and also contains abundant minerals, in solution, to continually re-mineralise the teeth, with nery a brush in sight.

I spent the first 30 years of my life with perfect dental health; not a single filling, ever. Now, my teeth are in a terrible state, despite having regularly eaten plenty of greens and sea vegetables etc., all because I did not understand certain critical absences from my raw diet. I also did not understand the degree to which my high fruit consumption was both leaching minerals from my body and weakening my digestion (too much potassium can contribute to a sodium deficiency). If you read the link I posted above, you'll see more discussion on these issues.

Can you eat a raw diet and retain perfect dental health? Yes, but there are compromises involved, which many individuals prefer to stick their heads in the sand and ignore. Far too many people run rings around themselves, resisting reality, in this respect, and suffer the dental consequences as a result. Out of respect for the board, I will refrain from elucidating any further, but if you do some research, you'll find the answers are probably in your local library.

I'm not going to post any more on this topic as a simple search of these forums will provide a wealth of previous discussion. One of the single biggest issues in the poor dental health of raw-foodists is, undoubtedly, ignorance, irrespective of whether this be unintentional or (where a person is committed more to philosophical idealism than to reality) deliberate. I was unintentionally ignorant of the critical factors governing dental health, and I'm paying the price, but I have taken the time to research these and am now applying them, rather than deliberately overriding them with other agendas.


J.

[Raene]

What brand of oil do you use? I need recommendations. The thought of sesame oil makes me want to hurl but if I could find the right kind of sunflower, I'd be happy. I don't get it though, do you want refined or unrefined?

[Pitaya]

great post at the perfect time - i've been raw almost 2 months and woke up a few days ago with MAJOR aching pain on my right side. i keep thinking it is something healing itself, as i've had such pains elsewhere that have gone away, but now this post is making me concerned.....i may just break down and book a dentist visit soon after hearing about the abcesses getting out of control!!

arky, thanks for the info here! please recommend other websites specifically to research "fat-soluble factors" you mentioned? i am a couple notches lower than your discussion (layman's level?) so would appreciate further info. here's what i mean very specifically:

is there a raw page out there to show us how to make sure we're getting alll our nutrients? i have done research, but most refer to cooked foods and slam vegan diets so i can't relate. also, maybe the reason you find many raw foodists not considering all of the factors you find critical is because most raw food sites say: eat this way and nature will take care of the rest! so we do! i've been chugging green smoothies thinking all is good and brushing the "reccommended" way, but with natural toothpaste.

what about a tooth health 101 site that coincides with raw principles?

maybe we need to create these if they're not out there?

pitaya

[Eva]

Pitaya, here are some pieces of info I've picked up that I use in my life re: teeth:


After ANY type of fruit or fruit smoothie, I swish my mouth out with water.
This includes lemon water, which I purposefully do NOT drink throughout the day but instead all at once.
Oil pull 1-2 times per day.
Do NOT brush teeth right before or after citrus or other acidic items. This sort of locks the acid into our teeth.
Don't refrain from dental hygiene because of being raw!
Brush and floss at least twice daily.
Drink a lot of pure unsweetened water.
Make sure to chew stuff regularly. (i.e. Don't drink sugary green smoothies all day and --sheesh-- also not "work out" your teeth by eating stuff like carrots or celery that you must crunch on)
Get enough iron and calcium.


That's all I can think of off of the top of my head. My teeth and gums are healthier now than when I went raw 13 months ago. I have seen chilove and other long-time raw foodists say their teeth are still doing great. My mother had the beginnings of gingivitis before going raw (AND oil pulling!), and her teeth are now whiter and her gums are in perfect condition.

We just have to be smart about it... but there is NO reason for the raw diet to cause tooth problems! :)

[sebzzz]

I spent the first 30 years of my life with perfect dental health; not a single filling, ever. Now, my teeth are in a terrible state, despite having regularly eaten plenty of greens and sea vegetables etc., all because I did not understand certain critical absences from my raw diet. I also did not understand the degree to which my high fruit consumption was both leaching minerals from my body and weakening my digestion (too much potassium can contribute to a sodium deficiency). If you read the link I posted above, you'll see more discussion on these issues.

Can you eat a raw diet and retain perfect dental health? Yes, but there are compromises involved, which many individuals prefer to stick their heads in the sand and ignore. Far too many people run rings around themselves, resisting reality, in this respect, and suffer the dental consequences as a result. Out of respect for the board, I will refrain from elucidating any further, but if you do some research, you'll find the answers are probably in your local library.

I'm not going to post any more on this topic as a simple search of these forums will provide a wealth of previous discussion. One of the single biggest issues in the poor dental health of raw-foodists is, undoubtedly, ignorance, irrespective of whether this be unintentional or (where a person is committed more to philosophical idealism than to reality) deliberate. I was unintentionally ignorant of the critical factors governing dental health, and I'm paying the price, but I have taken the time to research these and am now applying them, rather than deliberately overriding them with other agendas.


J.

Thanks Arky for the good info. I take this subject at heart and have been looking around forums for a long time about this. I dug in the posts you pointed at but at some point I hit error 404 pages so wasn't able to get further information, especially for fat-solubles that you talk about. I would appreciate greatly if you could point out exactly what is needed and what should we pay attention about on a raw food diet to keep teeth and gum healthy.

Thanks a lot

[iamacranberry]

Arky:

Not much point to post and run away, is there (as you said you wouldn't post any further on this topic)? I respond for the sake of those who are still reading.

Actually, many cultures do have teeth cleaning rituals of sorts, even if they are a bit different than our traditional toothbrush and toothpaste ones. For example, some tribes in Africa use a mixture of clay and salt and some other things (which I would like to try myself one of these days if I can find a recipe for something close to their mixture.) Other cultures...actually DO have tooth problems. In fact...scientists have found skulls of prehistoric cavemen who had what were almost indubitably cavities.

Another thing that may help prevent many cultures from having massive tooth decay would be the lower consumption of sugar. Your average desert people who drink cow's blood, for example, don't eat sugar...there are less extreme examples (such as the primarily maize-eating people in parts of South America, etc.)

But seeing as I've never known a raw fooder in the western world to eat a diet without fruit and other sources of sugar, yes, brushing and cleaning the teeth in some efficient way is generally a wise idea. Otherwise...it's likely that one will suffer teeth problems.

As I said before, many raw fooders go overboard on the spiritual side of things and decide that their bodies will clean themselves or something...we're not cats who lick ourselves or birds who preen, and seeing as human civilization has grown into what it is now, our methods of self-hygiene may be more advanced...but we still need to employ their use.

[Arky]

Sorry, sebzzz, I will not be drawn further about this other than to say that I am of the firm opinion (from cold hard experience, I might add, not philosophical pipe dreams) that if you wish to keep your teeth healthy on a raw diet, you should:

* Avoid excessive fruit intake (it's not just a simple fructose-in-the-mouth issue, it goes way deeper than that).

* At least have the sense to do some reading outside of the raw literature, in order to become accustomed with certain issues which are, frankly, overlooked (ignored?) by the majority of raw-foodist authors. You may then apply this knowledge to your raw diet in whatever way you do (or don't) see fit. It's not about conflict, it's about understanding the compromises and taking things from there, according to one's own sensibilities.

Let me make it clear that any (and I do mean any diet, raw or otherwise), is a collection of compromises. Raw-foodism also covers a wide spectrum of possible paths. The focus of Alissa's board is raw veganism, which has much to offer health-conscious individuals like you and I, but it is no exception to the 'compromises' rule of all dietary paths. Therefore, it is your responsibility to do your own reading and draw your own conclusions, just as I did, when I began to have questions like yours. Other than this post, and what I have already written in a couple of other recent threads, I decline to offer any further comment - please read paragraph 2 of post 17 in this thread:

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?t=39136


All the best in your self-directed research, I know you'll find the answers you seek, if you are diligent and (importantly) open-minded.


J.

[Arky]

I give up.

It appears you have read my post and consider me obtuse but nothing could be further from the truth. Anyone who is familiar with my postings, knows that I try to be as helpful and detailed as I reasonably can, at the time.

Please read between the lines, here. My refusal to elaborate in my previous post is due to the fact that this board does not cater for all the possible facets of the bigger picture I am urging sebzz to explore for answers. If I detailed all of those facets (which, it would appear, some expect me to do), then I would be being disrespectful to the stated intent of the board as a whole. Why would I disrespect the board? We have a great community here, with some very helpful, caring, and supportive individuals. I really don't feel it is too much to ask of anyone to do a little research for themselves - that's exactly what I had to do to uncover a bigger picture, with regard to raw-foodism and dental health. If I sometimes come across in my posts as seemingly thinking I 'know it all', that's not actually where I'm coming from - my assertiveness is generally nothing more than a means of pointing out that all is not as one is often led to believe, in the raw movement, as you yourself noted in your above post. As I've stated elsewhere, I am not a person who sits quietly and watches others encounter similar issues to myself, without offering them a possible shortcuts of learning from my mistakes - that is partly what being a compassionate human being is all about. Of course, instead of sitting silently, and instead of offering my own experiences, in the spirit of compassion, I could, alternatively, choose to hypocritically 'toe-the-line' of much of the raw literature, and pretend that all the dogma is true and that 'if they just keep on going, they'll be ok'. Often, in life, if one is to do anything of positive intent, one finds oneself putting one's neck on the block, so-to-speak. It's just unfortunate that text-based communication invariably fails to convey the subtleties of facial expression and vocal inflection, so that a post and/or it's author may appear to have a different intention or attitude than they actually do.


On a lighter note, I do take your point about 'personal experience', and I absolutely concede that it is a valid one. I only made that remark in order to contrast it with the endlessly-regurgitated 'collected wisdom' of much of the raw literature and gurus, who never, ever, seem to truly come clean about the broader reasons for people experiencing dental issues on a raw diet. If I had accepted such wisdom (which, indeed, I did, for a time), then my teeth would probably have fallen out by now, whereas I am working towards healing them, using the knowledge I gained from doing personal research outside of the raw dogma.

*Given that there is such a contrast between the accepted wisdom on dental issues, in the raw literature, and my own personal experience.

and

*Given that I am not even close to being an 'exception' in my experience of declining dental health on a raw diet.

...I hardly feel that marks me out as a lone figure with a unique experience that might be considered an 'exception' to the 'rules' (whatever the 'rules' you refer to might be), and, by virtue of the disparity between my experience and the accepted wisdom in the raw-foodist literature, there is, obviously a degree of 'contentiousness' there, which, far from being 'unadmitted', I think is self-evident throughout my posts on the topic, without me needing to be unsubtle enough to spell it out for any intelligent reader who I would expect to be able to clearly read between the lines, provided they're open-minded enough to do so.

Despite my dental issues, I would like to reiterate that I do believe in the usefulness of a predominantly-raw diet, in promoting health. It's just a matter of how one goes about it that makes the difference.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from, a little better now.

Peace!


J.

[Eva]

Wow... I personally have had better dental health since going raw, but I attribute that to regular oil pulling not raw food. Sheesh -- throwing my two cents in there again.

You (Arky), however positive my personal experiences have been so far, have certainly shared enough logical information to encourage me to explore this matter further. And to make sure that I don't have wool over my eyes.

Thanks to everyone for the valuable input in this thread. :)

[steveoregon]

Just by co-inky-dink, I was just listening to a Revvell interview (mp3) with David Wolfe the other night. She asked this very question about teeth.

The interview can be downloaded on her website HERE (http://rawfood.revvell.com/) (about half way down the page)

When you download the 37 minute interview, forward to 31:55 where Revvell asks David about teeth problems.

[Eva]

Thanks Steve (And Revvell!)... I just listened to the whole thing. Good stuff. I think it's worth listening... but to pinpoint what I found to be most interesting and useful:

He says that when the body is detoxing, it leeches minerals from the body. Many people are already deficient in minerals, so that's why it's good to have superfoods, lots of greens and sea veggies. They help to get more minerals into the body, which helps our teeth.

Obviously I was paraphrasing. ;)

[sebzzz]

Thanks all for pointing out all this information. I will do my own research as I like to see how deep the rabbit whole goes in many subjects of life. That's what brought me to raw food.

I also read at some places that dentists tend to cure things when they happen but not put emphasis on good prevention to eliminate problems completely in their own selfish interest. I will look at that side of the medallion too.

Thanks, any other piece of personal experience or information is appreciated.

[Arky]

I also read at some places that dentists tend to cure things when they happen but not put emphasis on good prevention to eliminate problems completely in their own selfish interest. I will look at that side of the medallion too.




http://www.mizar5.com/

[Theogirl]

With respect, Arky, would you briefly outline some things to specifically research. This is all new to me and I'm quite overwhelmed.

[iamacranberry]

Ditto. I still stand that you really shouldn't enter a discussion if you're not going to contribute. If you've already said these things and you're unwilling to repeat them....why are you posting here? It just doesn't make sense.

[Pitaya]

Hi Eva, thanks for the mini-course, that's exactly what I was looking for! Basic principles to get started : ) I also like what you said above to Arky, it was very well put, and I second that!

Arky, hopefully you didn't perceive us as wanting to be handheld, rather we just needed a place to start because it seems there is conventional (allopathic) wisdom, natural wisdom (where raw fits in) and everywhere in between and it seems such a broad spectrum I don't know where to start! It can be overwhelming at times, and I am probably off even in my spectrum description because I've done so little research in the area.....which is part of the problem......then not knowing where to start kicks it into high gear vicious cycle mode. Meantime my teeth and toothache are sending me straight to the dentist's chair, which of course isn't in itself a bad thing (given a choice, which i do have, i personally am not into Tom Hank's knock-yer-own-teeth-out a la Cast Away :D )

I do appreciate your point about spiritual blinders. I know some people who are falling apart physically and doing nothing to change because they believe some force or another will take care of everything for them. I think I may have been doing this a little during my honeymoon with raw, so thank you for bringing this to awareness.

Doing my own research is important, given I have my own value system and preferred approaches, so I will dive in somewhere and see where I end up, that's how I found raw after all : ) I guess I just wanted to see some of your sources (in or out of raw world) because I respected what you were saying and wanted to learn more, but of course you are free to share or not share as you please :)

thanks again.....and please don't stop posting, I have found your insight here invaluable :)

[Arky]

You lot aren't going to let this drop are you? :rolleyes: ;)

If you read the various posts I have cross-linked with one another, recently, the necessary clues are there, I assure you, to get you started. However, I will try to clarify a little, since you have asked:

* You will notice that I've been at pains to point out the limitations of allowing dietary philosophy to dictate one's diet, over and above other considerations. I'm not saying it's 'wrong', or 'bad' (we all have our personal philosophies, according to which we each live our own lives), I'm just saying it's a potential trap, hence the need to take a look outside any given philosophical 'box' from time to time, and be open-minded about what you might find. You may find some interesting information which, I want to stress, need not necessarily contradict your preferred philosophy (although that is always a possibility in life), but which may be resourcefully applied in a format congruent with your preferred philosophy.

* So, in looking outside the box, what I am getting at is that, instead of reading only books and websites grounded in raw-foodist philosophy, logic and semantics, you could consider doing some research into anthropological studies. These are interesting because although the anthropologists conducting the studies may imbue their work with a degree of personal bias, they nonetheless offer a good opportunity to get as close to cold-hard-facts as one could reasonably hope for. There is a world of difference between philosophy about something and empirical observation/study of something. Studies therefore offer a different perspective on dietary issues, which can be most helpful and informative.

* There is often a tendency in raw circles, to view mineral intake as the overriding factor in the resulting levels of minerals within the body. While there is, of course, a good proportion of truth in this, it is, critically, an incomplete viewpoint. Absorption is of the utmost importance, as is the degree of excretion (I've discussed one excretion pitfall in a recent post on fruitarianism).

Although I still eat a predominantly-raw diet (and I have much more energy and vitality as a result of learning to consume living foods), what I found in my research was nonetheless useful and is helping me now to achieve a more balanced approach to my raw food intake. My research was prompted by a need for answers which were not being provided by the raw literature, and this is a shame, because openness on these issues would have spared me a great deal of unnecessary suffering, and doubtless that of many others. Provided it is not taken to extremes, raw-foodism, as a dietary path, is a great way to achieve good health, and I very much believe in the merits of raw food. Nonetheless, it was my realisation that the philosophies propounded by so many in the raw food movement are no more complete than those in other dietary philosophies, that was the key to helping me open-mindedly seek and find the information I needed, wherever it might be. If you find yourself taking mental 'refuge' in raw-foodism, as an entity then I suggest you pause for thought and consider the benefits of being open-minded in all aspects of life.

To summarise, I suggest, that you seek out empirical studies on dietary factors that affect absorption of minerals.

There is definitely enough in this post to get you started.


J.

[Pitaya]

:confused: i think we've reached the point of talking in circles now.....lol....i thought i stated i understood everything you (arky) just said? i don't get why everything was reiterated but i do appreciate the effort for sure.

i think it's a good idea to just drop out of my questioning now : ) a new door has been open and i'm heading out through it to find out what else i can learn....

as always, thanks for sharing and i look forward to seeing y'all again on the raw journey in other posts :)

[RawMistress]

Do you really believe the reason such an enormous number of raw-foodists experience dental problems is because of poor brushing? Why, then, do so many indigenous cultures, whose members may not ever brush their teeth during the course of an entire lifetime, have remarkably good dental health,

J.
Because they dont get many fruits and nuts and other sugary foods imported to their "indigenous walmart or HFS" .:eek:

Arky can you link your source please.

[Arky]

Because they dont get many fruits and nuts and other sugary foods imported to their "indigenous walmart or HFS" .:eek:

Arky can you link your source please.


As I'm sure you are aware, excessive sugar plays but one part in the dental decay equation ;). As I mentioned previously, it is the abundance of minerals and protective factors in the saliva of a healthy human being that protect the teeth against the acid-producing bacteria that otherwise run rampant in the mouth, particularly below the gumline.

No, I'm sorry, I cannot link my source, for reasons I have already stated, but the source is real and is a classic in the literature on diet and nutrition. Please understand that I am not 'being evasive', despite all appearances to the contrary; I am being respectful of the board.


J.

[Stina]

I wanted to share something very important that I learned the hard way. For years I bought the natural toothpaste at the health food stores, blindly thinking it was automatically better. I mean, I spent more money on it, right?! Well, my teeth got progressively worse and more sensitive. Come to find out, these natural toothpaste brands like Tom's use glycerine. That ingredient makes the teeth slick and stop the process of remineralization to protect the teeth, hence the increasing sensitivity making them vulnerable. So, please, everyone, that's an important factor to consider.

Arky, hope we're not driving you nuts. I can tell your responses have been carefully thought out and I thank you for your time. I'm going to back track and carefully read the links you provided. There are so many experiences and info to consider. This is an urgently important topic. Dental work is so outrageously expensive.........

[Stina]

Arky, I carefully read your sharing on those threads, kinda wondering what was up with the tone of defensiveness. You have a good point that we need to all do our own research. Not everyone has the time, inclination, or intellectual capacity to go over a lot of scientific, wordy material that can be confusing. That's why some of us who love to do that sort of thing do so and report back to others, so the info can be filtered throughout the raw community. I remember reading in Sally Fallon's book Nourishing Traditions that there was a study involving Seventh Day Adventist dentists, one group were vegetarians, the others weren't. With dentists, the assumption was both groups would be getting the same, satisfactory dental care over the years. The point was that the meat-eating people had less dental caries. I'm wondering if that's the point you're getting at without stating it. Don't know. You deny being obtuse but, well, my friend, you're being obtuse!

You made mention of fat-soluble activators. I'm reading Dr. Gabriel Cousen's book Conscious Eating right now and just read some in-depth material about how different people need different fats and that a person's need for certain fats will change as they heal. Apparently, it's not easy to know either. Yes, absorption of minerals is a big issue. If our intestines are caked up like papier-mache from years of eating dairy and flour product, or there are lots of parasites swimming around, or the villi is damaged, or there's not enough stomach acid, or many other reasons, absorbing minerals is going to be a problem.

Meanwhile, I hope we can all share info on this important topic and continue to learn.

[sebzzz]

I am having a similar discussion over at raw food support (here (http://www.rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?2,94483)). I hope it's not a bad practice to point to other raw food forums.

I think that some pieces of the puzzle are in this post too. You should find that usefully.

For now, here are are the main points that have been discussed as important on a raw food diet or just any diet:

- Eat tons of vegetables, green leafy ones particularly. (put emphasis on vegies and not fruits)
- Don't limit the amount of fat intake so much but still keep it low (between 10% and 20%) and allow for a good variety of fats (nuts, avos, coconut, ...)
- Brush, floss and mouth wash regularly with a safe paste and in a good manner
- Brush or at lease rinse after fruits

Other parts of the puzzle, but still unclear:

- Oil pulling (started this morning, will see where it leads)
- Essential oils treatment (read above for info)
- Best natural toothpastes or products (Tea tree oil?)

In a couple of days, information is starting to get out. Since beginning my raw journey, I tended to rely on Doug Graham's advices because to me they were to most reasonable and most promising. With this in mind, I still tend to think like him that to gourmet version of the diet is not the most healthy version because of all the fat intake. However, I'm ready to let my fat intake be higher and consume a lot more vegetables because I'm not able to find reasonable answers for teeth problems on the 80-10-10 version of the diet.

I think this thread is great and more info should be posted as it become available.

[dreamrawalwz]

In regards to the fruits and sugars: Remember that fruits of today (even organic) are SOOO much sweeter than "back in the day" as well as the fruits that those in indigenous tribes that are out there now consume.

[Arky]

Arky, I carefully read your sharing on those threads, kinda wondering what was up with the tone of defensiveness. You have a good point that we need to all do our own research.

...You deny being obtuse but, well, my friend, you're being obtuse!

(Anyone reading this, please note that I am not 'shouting' or 'angry', but I am explaining my position firmly and calmly. Text communication is limited so although I may seem to be agitated, that is not the case, here, I promise you).

Thankyou for your comments, Stina. If I seemed defensive, you will, I hope, note that this was only in my latter posts. Why? Well, as I have clearly explained, some of the literature that is highly relevant to this topic does not, in itself, lie within the remit of this board. Therefore, I provided people with those elements of the topic which do lie within the remit of the board, and pointed them in the direction of the remainder which does not. I was then met with repeated requests for more detail on the very information I had legitimately declined to elaborate on, out of respect for Alissa and her board. For being as helpful as I can, while respectfully remaining within the discussion boundaries of the board, I get accused of being obtuse! :confused: 'Obtuse' has to do with intention, not external variables which necessitate abstaining from elaboration. This is a critical distinction. So I stand by my previous remark - I was genuinely not being obtuse, and although I do realise you were not being nasty, it doesn't make me appreciate the accusation any more. Frankly, I could be forgiven for wondering why I bothered at all, but the truth is that I wish someone had pointed me in the right direction when I began experiencing dental problems on a raw diet, because the 'raw' literature and websites I painstakingly sifted through were seriously lacking in this regard, preferring to spout the same old limited dogma. If anyone in the raw community had actually pointed me in the right direction (I didn't need them to do the research for me, just a few helpful pointers would have made a world of difference to me at the time), it could have saved me so much pain and distress with my own dental health. That is why I posted what I could in this thread. If people can't be bothered to use their own initiative to seek out the remaining information themselves, as I did when I needed answers, then perhaps their dental health is not a high priority to them or perhaps they prefer not to open their minds to alternative sources of information. If this forum did not prohibit it, I'd happily have been more forthcoming about this information but that is not the situation , is it? In answer to your question(s), yes fat-soluble activators are key (and I was forthcoming about this, in a couple of my recent posts), but no, one does not need to eat meat in order to retain good dental health, although such a diet may, under certain circumstances, constitute one possible source of such activators. People do not need to fear reading sources of information from other dietary paths; it does not mean they have to abandon their existing dietary path. All it means is that each path has valuable viewpoints and findings to offer, which an intelligent individual can absorb and resourcefully apply to their own diet.


Arky, I'm glad you elaborated with your post on the previous page. Basically there you've said nothing I disagree with.

And true, there have been many anthropological studies citing groups of people who may have what we westerners consider substandard dental hygiene, but as drr said, the fruits we eat may be different in composition than those that the tribesmen consume, as sebzzz said, the consumption of vegetables as well as regular teeth cleaning of some kind is still advisable. Vegetables which require a lot of chewing may help to clean the teeth in a similar way to the way chewing gums do. Also, as I mentioned, there are in fact dental hygienic practices among many tribes, even if they are different than what we envision. And, there are records of tribesmen past and present having dental problems. Modern clinical studies conducted by universities and other respected organizations will show that a lack of proper dental hygiene (seemingly regardless of diet) is in fact a risk factor for dental problems.


Thanks, iamacranberry, I think we understand each other now. When I made my remarks about brushing with regard to certain traditional indigenous cultures, this was, admittedly, an overly-broad statement, which you were right to pull-me-up about. When I made those remarks, my primary aim was simply to point out my belief that, while brushing is undoubtedly a helpful contributor to good dental health, too many people focus upon it over and above examining dietary factors. If one felt so-inclined, a brief search of the forum archives would reveal that I myself was, initially, guilty of this same 'misdemeanour' ;) While it may be true that dental health is not perfect in such traditional cultures, anthropological studies do, nonetheless, point to a generally very good state of dental health, which has been clearly shown to be founded more upon the adequacy of certain elements in their diets, than an excessive attention to fastidious oral hygiene. That there are certain dietary factors (e.g. fat-soluble activators) that require an open mind and, with some dietary paths, some resourcefullness in order to suitably incorporate, is an inconvenient truth to some, and this may explain why it can be tempting to focus on oral hygiene instead of addressing this important piece of the dental health puzzle. The modern studies are invariably undermined by the fact that the participants they study do not consume a traditional diet that includes vital nutrients to abundant levels, and so the importance of brushing etc., to compensate to some degree for the unfortunate proliferation of acid-producing bacteria, due to reduced levels of protective elements in the saliva, does, of course, become more relevant.

In honesty, I think we both share some common ground on these various sub-topics, it's just that we're each discussing the relative importance of things, rather than whether they are important or not, per se'. It's clear to me that you've done a good bit of reading about the subject, too.

I think your point about the chewing of highly-fibrous foods, and the incidental cleaning of the teeth which can result from this chewing, is an excellent one, by the way.


J.

[goingrawchelle]

Arky, thanks for that thread. No I hadn't read that yet. You've provided tons of information and i appreciate it. I have lots to think about now. Again, thanks.

[Stina]

Hey Arky, just wanted to say thank you for the thought-provoking info and that I make amends for being abrasive with my comments; I feel like I was and wanted to acknowledge that. :)

[Arky]

No problem, I'm human and consequently far from perfect, too! ;)

Peace :)


J.

[durian]

My teeth look fine (even whiter since I quit coffee and tea) but lately I've noticed my gums are receding. I've been raw from the past half year and my gums were fine before that. I'm cutting back on the dried or acidic fruit and upping my intake of sea vegetables and greens. Anyone else dealt with receding gums?

[Clare]

I know the dentist always measures my gums and in the past, a few years ago and pre-raw, they were receding a little, and then they got better. The hygienist explained that the gums "like clean tooth surface" and convinced me to use a sonic toothbrush. I am not sure how much truth there is in this, but wanted to give you osme hope that they can come back a little. The advice is to thoroughly clean the surfaces of the tooth with brishing and flossing without being abrasive and scrubbing your gums too hard. I am sure that there is better nutrition advice, though, as in all things.