my raw pets - I'm having a dilemma!!!

[Mialsse]

Ok, I know not everyone turns to a raw vegan (the vegan aspect moreso then the raw) for ethical purposes, so these questions probably wont attain to that group.

My family was vegan for over 8 years before becoming raw. Our veganism was first and foremost about ethical reasons (animal welfare and rights). Environmental concerns came second. And health came in last. We became raw vegan almost a year ago (wow, it's been a long time) for our health. So my point is, even before our health concerns, we were all about the animals.

Now, we have started the process of moving our dog to a raw foods diet, and have/had plans to do the same to our kitties in the coming weeks. However, a few nights ago as we were driving back home (we just went on a cross county trip - south carolina to las vegas and back again), I got a huge pit in my stomach about our decision. I am and have always been totally opposed to the idea of raising animals for food. 8 years ago I pledged to myself that I would no longer support such a cause. It disgusts me, it saddens me, it really hits me on a deep level. So how can I, in good conscience, continue to buy raw animal meat for my pets?

I'm not opposed to the eating of raw meat for carnivores (which people are not). It's not the idea of my dog eating an animal that gets me ... it is strictly the fact that the animal hanging out of my pets mouth was specifically raised for such a purpose. That's disgusting to me. Severely disgusting!

I know, I know - all of our domestic companions should have just been left as they were ... wild, and then we wouldn't have these problems. But, that's just not reality. We don't purchase from petstores. Our pooch and both cats were all stray animals that we took in to save them from the death that would have been their fate had animal control picked them up.

Has anyone else struggled with this? How did you handle it?

I would love to hear any thoughts, ideas, feelings, stories, etc on the subject ... I really am very torn over this! :confused:

[JennaBoBenna]

It's tough, I know it is. I went vegan overnight in 2005 after watching Meet Your Meat. I did it strictly for the animals at first (now it's health, too). But, when I plan to be a kitty or puppy's mama, I plan to feed them what's natural for them to eat. I would try to buy organic of course, humanely raised meat (maybe from a small farm?). An animal's gotta eat and it's not fair to deprive them of what's natural for them because we as humans don't agree with it. You could also check into a really healthy animal kibble or BARF, also. I haven't thought TOO much about the subject because all of my animals now are herbis (2 rats and a guinea)

[Eva]

I posted about this just a few months ago. I could find the thread if you want. My dilemma was similar -- I just felt like it's so unethical what happens to the animals that are sold for food.

And I felt like (and feel like now too) I've been put in an awkward position between harming another animal or harming the one that snores next to me as I type away.

No matter what, the stuff found in most dog food might not resemble a feeble, poorly treated animal... but that's not an option because they obviously didn't just pull the animal parts out of thin air. Those animals are the animals we read about in graphic books depicting the horrors of animals that are raised for food.

My best -- and still not great -- solution was to buy only organic meat for him. No, it's not ideal at all. But I figure it's more likely that organic, no hormones etc. animals led a better life than those that are factory farmed and pumped with hormones.

Boli (aforementioned snoring dog) eats about 2-3 chicken legs per day and every other day gets the same mixed with a green smoothie and flax OR mixed with a crushed, whole egg.

I've thought about finding a local place so that I at least know the conditions, but I haven't done that. And honestly, it's still not a real solution. Which is unfortunate.

And I don't know about yours, but my dog loves to chase and canNOT actually catch wild animals!!

[Lynx]

Its a though dilemma, and I have actually thought about it myself.

Now, I buy ordinary food for my cat, but if I should give her raw food, I have considered giving here fish. I could never kill the fish myself, but my boyfriend is a meateater, and he loves to fish(for food, not just for fun). Those fishes have lived theire live free, and since my cat need meat, I dont see that big problem.

So maybe you could ask someone you know to fish for you? I know I wouldnt buy the fish, because I dont want to support the mass production/slaughter.

But I dont know if just fish will be enough for a cat, I dont know exactly what a cat needs. Maybe also eggs from free and organic breed hens?

[Aleesha Sattva]

It's not a dilemma at all for me. I believe in the Mother Goddess, I believe in Mother Earth... and I believe in the circle of life.

Think of the overpopulation of bugs alone if everything on this planet stopped eating meat!

I don't feel badly at all when I feed my snakes... they eat what they eat and that's nature.

I don't feel bad when I feed my dogs... they are carnivores. So that's what they get.

I feed my fish... they get food made from the highest quality ingredients... and some of those ingredients are other fish. That's the way it is.

The circle of life is there for a reason.

[Lynx]

recycling goddess: I too belive in the goddess and mother earth, I understand and acknowledge the necessarity of the cicle of life.

But I do NOT agree with the treatment humans give animals when they breed them in the way they do. Its cruel and NOT necessary, since we do not need meat. I cannot see it as a part of the cicle of life. This is one of the reasons why I became an vegetarian in the first place.

That said, I do not judge those who give theire animals meat or eat meat themself, its up to each one of us to decide :)

[Aleesha Sattva]

i totally agree with you! totally. the place we are fortunate to get our raw dog food from... gets it from small time local farmers... so the meat is treated ethically. (i live in a small town so we know the people running the company)...

[Lynx]

People who belive in the goddess/mother earth tend to think and act in that way, yes ;)

:)

[Mialsse]

It's not a dilemma at all for me. I believe in the Mother Goddess, I believe in Mother Earth... and I believe in the circle of life.

Think of the overpopulation of bugs alone if everything on this planet stopped eating meat!




See, I'm not opposed to the eating of meat if you're a carnivore. I'm not trying to "turn" my pets into vegans by anymeans. They absolutely need meat, and I wouldn't dream of trying to convert them based on own personal feelings. My dilemma is strictly on the actions of raising animals as food. Without such a barbaric practice, the circle of life would still go on. Wild carnivores would still get their meat. I would still get my veggies. On and on we would go. But when it comes to breeding and raising animals for food, well, that is just not a natural process in the "circle of life", in my opinion.

It's tough.

You made a good point, Eva, about the packaged dog foods. A simple concept, really. By owning a carnivorous pet, you ARE going to be supporting practices that raise animals for food no matter which way you turn. You can choose the less healthy, nicely packaged bags of kibble that actually "work" because they don't stir up thoughts or feelings about the origin. Or you can choose the more healthful (and absolutely more appealing to the one eating it) slabs of raw meat, that are definitely more "in your face" and feeling provoking. Either way, it's all still dead animal that was raised for food.

JennaBoBenna, I went vegan too after watching Meet You Meat! I was vegetarian for about a week (maybe less) when I watched that. It was amazing how oblivious I was to the entire thing, a big eye opener - for sure!

[JennaBoBenna]

JennaBoBenna, I went vegan too after watching Meet You Meat! I was vegetarian for about a week (maybe less) when I watched that. It was amazing how oblivious I was to the entire thing, a big eye opener - for sure!

totally! you should have seen how I was before I watched that video! I bashed veg*ns and everything about it and would never give up meat "just because animals die"!! :eek:
that video made me cry and feel so ignorant and mean! thank god I saw the light!!

[kaybee]

mialsse--

argh. SO FRUSTRATING. I just spend AGES working on a reply, and the internet ATE it...so here goes again. not nearly so complete or articulate or heartfelt as the first time...but heres a second try.

You might want to check out Evolution Diet (Dry) Pet Food.

I know many on this board will disagree with what I am about to say, but I have thought and researched long and hard about this issue. Similar to your situation, I became vegetarian (18 years ago, when I was 11) and then mostly vegan (6 or so years ago) primarily for ethical reasons. While I felt that other reasons for doing so, such as environmental, social justice, eating lower on the food chain, etc were important, the core of my reason for doing so was that I did not want my survival to warrant the deaths of other creatures for me to eat. (I fully recognize that no diet is truly kill-free or cruelty free; even vegan diets are guilty of containing food from land that wildlife has been forced off of and from accidental wildlife deaths from farm machinery, destruction of small animal nests and young, etc; unfortunately, there is no pure land. HOWEVER, clearly meat eating causes death directly and to a much larger extent than veganism.) To me, it is not just "inhumane" raising of animals for meat that is problematic and wrong, it is the raising of animals AT ALL for meat that is problematic and wrong. (I think this is similar to what you are getting at regarding your beliefs too) Why cause more pain and suffering in a world that is already filled to the brim overflowing with violence? And why snuff out other lives when we can live thriving lives without doing so? Over time, my reasons for being vegan, then raw vegan, expanded to include health as a central tenet as well, but at the core, my commitment to veganism is primarily ethical at its core. Even if I were told that I could be healthier (which I have been told this) by going back to eating meat, I would not do it. I could not do it. It is just not an option for me; I feel so strongly that it is not our place to take away the lives of other creatures; I feel this at the very core of my being. Compassion for other creatures really is key for me.

While I agree that meat is a natural food for dogs, I do not think that this means that dogs cannot be healthy on a non-meat diet. I also feel strongly that if a dog can be healthy on a non-meat diet, then a person should not be faulted for feeding them such. This world has enough violence and cruelty and bloodletting in it; bringing about a little more compassion in it is not something to be faulted, nor will I accept being criticized for choosing to feed my dog a nutrient-rich, balanced vegan diet which she thrives on. I know many vegans choose to feed their dogs meat-based diets, and I understand their reasons for doing so. However, I have a happy, healthy, exuberant, energetic boxer that I feed a (partly raw) vegan diet and she does quite well on it. I have also fed other dogs vegetarian/vegan diets in the past and they, too, have done well on them, and I know of other cases of vegetarian/vegan dogs that have thrived on such a diet.

Its not really clear to me in your post if you are asking for other solutions or just hoping for some way to resolve the conflict inside of you, and all I can offer you is advice on the non-meat options side of things. Im not really sure if this is what you are looking for though. I really dont think that the "feeling in the pit of your stomach" is going to be something that you can easily reconcile or make go away while still feeding your dog a meat-based diet. I have had similar experiences in the past when I have had to make decisions regarding using products that have caused or will necessitate the ongoing suffering and/or death of other creatures, and that feeling has only gone away when I have chosen against the meat or other product involved. When a person's veganism is, at the core, ethical, decisions like these are really a matter that can affect our very well-being, our very souls, our very integration within ourselves. For me, the only viable solution was to find a balanced meat-free diet for my dog. I understand that many people on this board feel that raw (raw meat, not vegan or raw-vegan) is the way to go, and I understand why they feel that way, however I dont think that that is the only option for a diet upon which a dog can thrive, and I also dont think that its a viable option for many ethical vegans. Nor do I think that ethical vegans are wrong to try to find an alternative way of feeding other than cruelty-based foods (which ALL meat based foods are, organic or not. There is no such thing as truly "humane" slaughter, nor such thing as a truly "humane" taking a life away.) I would recommend looking into Evolution diet dry dog food for the dogs. There are a number of vegetarian/vegan pet foods commercially available (mostly dog), but I have found vegedog to be the most complete and palatable of what is available; it also contains probiotics, which I think are pretty critical, and my dog has done the best on this food (as well as liked it the best). You will find mixed reviews on the internet, particularly in regards to the Evolution canned food, but I have had good luck with the dry. There is also a great little book called "Vegetarian Dogs" by Veronica Rebow that you can order from her website that has balanced homemade vegan meals for dogs; the book also provides content from a vet regarding the nutritional efficacy of the meals and evaluation of the pets he has seen over the years that have been fed on these recipes. The book is largely anecdotal and based on the authors own experiences, but it is well-researched and my dogs have liked the food out of there--although it is rather time consuming. similarly, there is a supplement called Vegedog that you can get and some people have had really good luck with it; personally I found the recipes that it needed to be added to to be time consuming and my dog wasnt thrilled with them either. My dog currently gets Evolution dry dog food and a variety of raw fruits and veggies and occasional other random vegan handouts (including occasional cooked veggies, etc). She absolutely LOVES raw fruits and some raw veggies, and also automatically LOVES just about anything a person is eating. I am not strict about her diet in regards to what other people feed her as "treats" such as at doggie training classes, or at a friends house, or the like; I am not worried about her eating bits of meat in these cases, however, I choose not to further contribute to the pain and suffering caused by the meat industry that I would be inevitably supporting by feeding her a meat-based diet. I also would not be opposed to adding free-range eggs to her diet if that were necessitated--after all, chickens lay eggs and leave them laying around anyway--, but would prefer to get them from a free-range source that allowed their hens to die of old age (as my family did when I was growing up) instead of prematurely killing them when they stopped laying.

If you have cats, Cats are a little trickier; they are more like obligate carnivores and require nutrients that are harder to get in a non-meat food; I havent researched them in depth; some people have had good luck with various vegetarian/vegan foods and supplements such as VegeCat, but some people have also had problems with urinary tract infections, especially in male cats. So I would advise doing a bit more research on this one. I think theres a vegancats website if you google vegan cats you could check out for reviews if you have cats.

So for everyone who is ready to attack me (yes, I am on the defensive because I have been attacked on this board before in regards to this issue and my choice not to feed my dog meat) : no, Im not arguing that meat is not the natural food for companion animals, but I AM arguing that it may be possible for your pets, especially your dogs, to thrive on a non-meat based diet. Please dont attack us who are trying to find a better way for ALL animals and who are trying to work towards a more compassionate world. There is far too much violence, pain, and suffering in this world already.

Anyway, not sure if any of this helped, but good luck

kaybee

[Eva]

Kaybee, that is definitely something to think about. Do you do flax or anything in your dog's diet? Maybe you could share a little more so that you're helping offer a big solution if that would work.

How old is your dog? Have you been feeding him (her? it?!) this way for a long time?

Thanks for your heartfelt and thorough answer! :)

[kaybee]

Eva--

I used to use ground flax regularly along with alot of wheat germ and also small amounts of cold pressed unrefined organic sunflower oil when I was doing all her meals home-made. I keep meaning to add it back in... I got alot of comments on her coat being super-shiny...but I guess Ive gotten a bit lax now that Ive started using a commercial food (Evolution). IWhen I was making the meals, I also added recommended supplements, based on recipes and supplement recommendations in the "Vegetarian Dogs" book by Veronica Rebow, such as zinc and calcium (I used the calcified seaweed form of calcium because it was readily available and more like a food-source.). Doing the meals myself was a bit more time consuming than I would have liked, however, I was living in Ireland at the time, and pup wasnt a big fan of either of the UK varieties of vegan dog food available--she liked "crunchies" and they were both "flake" variety. Frankly, I didnt like either of them either and though I believe they met the UK dog food nutritional requirements, I wasnt confident she was getting what she needed from them. I got her when she was 3 months old, shes a year now, and immediately transitioned her off of the meat food she had been being fed. For the summer, I fed her meals from the book, along with free choice of the "flake" food (happidog and wackidog), (which she promptly picked the "crunchies" out of and ate, while strewing the "flake" all over the living room floor while dragging her dish around. gotta love boxers ;) ) I also fed her some fruit and both raw and cooked veggies, and she occasionally got random other stuff. I dont think that the "flake" food is a good concept, although the company who makes it seems to be reputable and doing well; but I dont think that its easily digestible. I also think that there are some foods that dogs can probably utilize better when they are lightly steamed; though the nutrient content is higher in raw, Im not sure their bodies can access all the minerals; so I often varied her diet by using both. The "Vegetarian Dogs" book recipes utilize mostly grains and/or proteins mixed with veggies and supplements and oils, such as sunflower. I used cold-pressed unrefined organic sunflower or olive oil. These would tend to be things such as rice, oats, sometimes wheat and soy, depending on the recipe, and there are wheat and soy-free recipes as well, and include fresh veggies and supplemental foods such as kelp powder and wheat germ. I know many feel that grain is not an appropriate food for dogs, but my dog seems to be healthy on this sort of diet; she seems to be able to absorb nutrients, and she has loads of energy and a shiny coat and good attitude, and doesnt smell as "doggy" as some other dogs, and I suspect there are many other dogs also thriving on this type of diet or else I imagine the companies who make vegan food would be suffering or out of business by now. I might also add that there are many dogs that do not belong to vegetarians or vegans that eat meat-free diets due to health reasons; there are pet food companies that produce vegetarian and vegan dog foods intended for animals with sensitivities and allergies. So there are other dogs eating vegetarian/vegan besides just those belonging to vegetarians/vegans.

When I got back to the states, I tried my pup on several different vegetarian and/or vegan commercial foods, before settling on evolution. This is by far the one she liked the best and the one that I was happiest with the nutritional make-up and ingredients of. She does also get offered a fair amount of other food, mostly raw fruits and veggies, though sometimes sprouted bread, peanut butter in her KONG toy, etc. I would hesitate to feed her ANY ONE food without supplementing with other fruits/veggies, etc; I think variety may be key to maintaining a healthy dog. She has had no health problems although she has always, even when I got her, been on the ganglier, lighter, more petite side of things. I have, however, actually gotten comments from more than one person, including my trainer, on how her weight is perfect for her frame, and its nice to see a lighter dog; as so many dogs in the US are overweight today.

anyway, ive not time to write any more at the moment; hope this helps.

kb

[carolg]

I would not do peanut butter. Just me perhaps but not my kind of thinking here. Even though it's 30+ years with me not eating any animal products, I do give my dog raw meat. She's not a vegan. So far been very pleased with results of no sickness and no money spent on vets but her food only. She's raw 8 years too.

carolg

[jacsam]

You will REALLY love reading about Ani Phyo's dog Kanga. She rescued him from an animal shelter and she was very sick. After nursing him back to health she transitioned her diet to raw vegan. She has a beautiful shiny coat and is a very handsome dog. She even tells you how to make the dog food that she uses and how she had to train her to eat the raw vegan food. It was INCREDIBLY interesting for even me. Oh, the other thing is she talks about how she uses alot of the ends of her vegetables in Kanga's food and cuts down on the waste....also she says that when other dogs come to her house, they all want Kanga's food. She gets many compliments on how healthy and vibrant her dog is compared to others of her same bread. Good Luck.

[Eva]

jacsam, carolg, kaybee -- I know this thread wasn't started by me -- but I really appreciate the useful info you have shared! :)

[Mialsse]

I wanted to thank everyone again for all their advice and opinions. I started this thread with one thing in mind, finding tips to try and make feeding my pets raw meat easier for me to deal with, but I came away with quite a different outlook.

My pets are not in their natural setting. They have been domesticated, and as such, no foods I could feed them would be considered "natural". Unless I turn them loose outside to hunt for their own food, and unless that hunting provided 100% of their dietary needs, nothing I could give them would be natural. The canned and packaged foods available to our pets is anything but natural! The raw meats I was buying for them were also not "natural".

At the beginning of my Vegan journey, many years ago, I did read a lot about vegan pets. I took a lot of it to heart, but at that time it was enough trying to learn about the human aspect of veganism, I just didn't have the devotion at the time to truly embrace the pet aspect.

Becoming raw has really opened up my mind even wider. I truly feel raw plant foods are what humans were meant to eat. It's our natural diet, and I love that I am no longer "forcing" myself to eat unnatural foods because of societal pressures. As such, I felt really very strongly that every living being on this earth should be granted the freedom to live in the ways they were naturally developed to live in. Which led me to seek out ways to "get over" the raw meat thing in order to provide my pets with the foods that were natural to them.

However, as stated above, I no longer feel I can provide my pets with anything remotely close to their natural diet - as they are not in their natural setting. So no matter which route I take (meat based / plant based) it is going to be unnatural.

I am not going to torture my soul with something that really isn't necessary for healthy living. I just can't do it. It was eating at me, stressing me, filling me with such guilt and disgust. I know those feeling would never go away, so I knew that in trying to keep their diet as close to natural as I could in order to maintain their health - I was risking my own health in the process (I fully believe stress and worry will kill you faster then any SAD food ever could). Aside from the emotional part of it, I also just cannot and will not get used to having raw meat in my house. The contamination issue was always right there at the forefront of my thoughts. The constant worry and scrubbing and re scrubbing that was going on was enough to drive me absolutely crazy. My natural cleaners didn't feel sufficient to me, so I was usually commercial "poison" to try and make sure I killed every last living "meat bacteria" around ... and even then I still felt unsatisfied. I just cannot live with raw meat in my house - I can't.

I've already transitioned my dog to a raw vegan diet, and she is doing beautifully on it. She loves her food. With inspiration from Ani Phyo and her gorgeous raw vegan dog, Kanga - I absolutely LOVE making my pooch her food. Dogs are easy. Natural omnivores, their bodies are fully capable of thriving on plant foods. We don't even have to supplement with them, we just have to take extra care in making sure their diet is varied - just like the rest of the family! Our cats are a bit more tricky, and we are definitely taking our time with them. Unlike dogs, they are carnivorous in nature. We will be supplementing their raw vegan diet to ensure they are getting everything their unique bodies need to thrive. We will absolutely make sure they have the taurine they need... which can and is made vegan style. Interestingly enough, in regular packaged cat foods, a taurine supplement has to be added (just like we'll have to do with raw vegan foods) - as any natural taurine is lost during the cooking process.

In an ideal world, no, this isn't what my pets would naturally gravitate towards ... but, having been domesticated, the "natural world" was taken away from them, so we are trying to make do with what we have. If my pets can be healthy, happy, thriving creatures with NO suffering involved for any other creature ... then, you know what, I'm going to take it. It's the best I can do.

[kaybee]

mialsse--

Thanks for your inspiring post; it really echoes my sentiments regarding the ethical vegan thing; meat is just something I cant do either. I didnt know I could actually feed RAW vegan though. Would love more details on the raw vegan diet you are feeding; would love to see if my dog does even better on raw vegan than on cooked vegan; I'd love to get rid of the commercial food and all the grains and soy.... any chance you could post in more detail or email me? or email the book sources you used?

Thanks much

kaybee

[Zuri]

After I read: Animal Voices: Telepathic Communication in the Web of Life by Dawn Brunke it changed my entire view on animals as being eaten, viewed as pests, pets, guides, etc. Very good book if your mind is open to it. I've known all animals are sentient beings yet this book really brings it home for the reader. Of course, it didn't make me want to go out and eat some fried chicken!

My two kitties are raw feeding and it was extremely hard for me in the beginning and it still is sometimes, but not as much. I know it's the best thing for them, esp knowing how dead and lifeless regular pet food is....there aren't that many options and raw meat is at the top of the list as being best in my opinion. I don't have to worry about taking them to the vet to get their teeth cleaned or their teeth turning into a mouth full of mush or inflammatory conditions or addictions to carbs and junk. They aren't in the least bit interested in any of my raw food either; they are lean, happy kitties.

[Mialsse]

kaybee, Sorry it took me so long to get back to you!

Do you have Ani Phyo's book? (Ani's Raw Kitchen). She has a really tiny section in the back about raw pets (dogs, really). She gives just a couple of recipes for raw vegan food that she gives to her dog, Kanga. That is where I found my "basic" recipe... "Kangas Favorite Pate", or something along those lines. I switch it up everytime I make it, but that is what helped me get started.

I basically use a cup or two of sunflower seeds
a cup of pumpkin seeds
a cup or two of any other kind of nut (bazil, almond, walnut ... make sure you mix it up)
about two or 3 cups of greens (really mix these up)
another cup or two of other veggies (carrots, squash, cauliflower, cucumber... just whatever)
a handful of herbs (dill, parsley, etc)
a few cloves of garlic
a T or two of real sea salt
1/2 to 1 whole avocado
I always add in some type of sea veggies (a few T of dulse and maybe a cup of soaked wakame or something similar
Always about 1/2 cup or more of ground flax
Hemp powder sometimes
Ground black sesame seeds sometimes

I mix it all up in a food processor (it's easiest to start with the garlic and salt, until the garlic is minced. Add in all the nuts and seeds and mix into a powder (wont really get "fine", it'll be kind of a chunky powder... if you can call that a powder, lol), then throw everything else in there and mix into a pate.

I like to chop up some crunchy veggies (carrots, sweet potatoes, etc) into small kibble-sized pieces, and hand mix these into the pate, to give it a bit of crunch when she eats it.

That's really it. I store it in a bowl in the fridge, and she gets about 1 1/2 - 2cups twice a day (she's about 50lbs). Right before I give it to her, I drizzle some oil on top (olive oil, hempseed oil, flax oil, udos oil ... I mix it up, I'd say the majority of the time she get the evoo, though). I'll also sometimes sprinkle some spirulina right before serving. I've found that she doesn't really like it in a big mush pile, so I scoop out like 5 BIG spoonfuls, and plop them onto the plate seperately (instead of mushing it all together), and she devours it! She absolutely loves her food!

Then through-out the day she eat apples, bananas, cucumbers, cherry tomatoes, pears ... I mean, really, anything that we're eating. Really helps save on the waste, actually. She LOVES apple cores! lol. When we make her pate, we use like the ends of things that we had saved from recipes we made a day or two earlier. The stems of collards when we do wraps. Etc. It's wonderful to have use for all these things.

She likes to munch on carrots or WHOLE sweet potatoes ... we use them instead of bones, now, to help keep her teeth clean, and her jaw strong. It's pretty funny, actually - lol. We take her with us to the kids sporting events, and she'll just be lying there in the grass chewing on a potato - LOL!

Since starting this journey with her, I've been contemplating ordering some vegedog for her, to add to her foods. I'm still uncertain whether or not I will. I'm pretty darn confident that she's getting what she needs ... but I'm still tossing the idea around. What do you think?

We're going to use the vegecat supplement for our 2 cats... we plan to transition them very VERY slowely into raw vegan foods. Hopefully within 6-8 months they'll be 100% raw vegan kitties. :D

[IamLoved]

Hi,

I just wanted to pop in here real quick and let you know that we switched our dogs over to an all raw diet back in Dec. We gave them raw chicken (which through everything I read was suppossed to be soooo good for them, blah, blah, blah) carrots, spinach, flax seeds, apples ect. It was really gross for me dealing with the raw chicken. It made me sick but I did a lot of research and it seemed to be best for them. Long story short, my precious Pepper, who I loved so much, ate some bad chicken, got a raging bacterial infection in her GI tract and died within 24 hours of getting sick. We spent $1000. on a vet bill trying to save her life. I will never feed raw meat to any of my animals again. I still give them carrots and apples and such because they love it, but never again with the meat.

I am not trying to start a controvery here. Just sharing my experience.

[Eva]

Hi,

I just wanted to pop in here real quick and let you know that we switched our dogs over to an all raw diet back in Dec. We gave them raw chicken (which through everything I read was suppossed to be soooo good for them, blah, blah, blah) carrots, spinach, flax seeds, apples ect. It was really gross for me dealing with the raw chicken. It made me sick but I did a lot of research and it seemed to be best for them. Long story short, my precious Pepper, who I loved so much, ate some bad chicken, got a raging bacterial infection in her GI tract and died within 24 hours of getting sick. We spent $1000. on a vet bill trying to save her life. I will never feed raw meat to any of my animals again. I still give them carrots and apples and such because they love it, but never again with the meat.

I am not trying to start a controvery here. Just sharing my experience.

Wow! First -- I am so sorry for your loss. What a horrible thing to happen when you were just trying to do the best for your beloved companion!

Would you mind sharing a couple details about the chicken itself and how you knew this was the cause? I would like to taken this information into consideration as I feed my dog raw food and have been for several months. I would hate for something to happen to him too!

Thanks! --Eva

[IamLoved]

Hi Eva,

Thanks. It was really awful. Pepper was my baby dog and we all loved her very much. The really heartrending thing was what you pointed out. We were trying to do the best thing for her. It would have been much easier to just throw down a bowl of food for her and call it good, especially with me being a raw vegan, preparing the raw cicken really grossed me out. Anyways we were feeding her whole chicken legs and thighs that we bought in bulk at WalMart and kept frozen until we were ready to feed them there meal. Then we would thaw what they would eat that day and feed it to them. The vet was 99% certain that the infection came from contaminated chicken and since it was raw it had all that bacteria in it. Pepper had just had a litter of puppies and they were 3 weeks old. Since she was still nursing the puppies (we had just begun weaning them) she was in a weakened condition and could not fight the infection. After this happened I heard about another woman who fed her dogs raw chicken and she had puppies and the exact same thing happened to her dog. So I don't know. She did really well with the raw food while she was pregnant and whelped her litter with no trouble at all. All I know is that I am not taking any chances and I will never feed raw meat to my dogs again. We kept one of her babies (you can see her on our website if you'd like) and we love her very much. Before Pepper got sick we had actually taken our other Dane off of raw meat but we were still giving it to Pepper because she was nursing and we wanted her to get that extra bit of "good for her" food. It was, and still is, very sad!

[Eva]

Yeah, it grosses me out too, big time. When I feed Boli the legs, I hold it for him while he chews. Ick. But when I do chicken livers, hearts, etc., I put it in his bowl with a green smoothie or something.

This is something to really think about.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to you -- but I'm trying to figure out which of the details could be it OR if it's just generally risky. I do buy organic and get more food about 3 times a week rather than freezing.

I don't want to be paranoid, but this is something I am really going to have to think more about.

Thank you again for sharing your experience with us. I really appreciate it.

[SharonC]

IamLoved, so sorry for your loss. I know how it feels to lose a dog, and it is always so difficult.

Just wanted to share my thoughts based on many years of experience feeding dogs for health reasons and also the whole health picture that I have learned in my nearly 15 year health journey (this applies to humans as well -other than some differences in nutritional needs)...

There are more dogs than you can possibly imagine who have been eating raw their whole lives (many for generations) that are much healthier because of it, and there are just as many who have been switched for health reasons, and their health was completely turned around. I switched my 16 year old Yorkie over 10 years ago, and my 2 year old Newfie is 3rd generation raw fed, naturally reared. I know many owners and breeders who have raised generations of dogs raw - many of the breeders have actually eliminated genetic health problems in their chosen breed through natural rearing - raw feeding is only part of natural rearing, but it is the foundation. For most dogs, raw truly is the healthiest for them, but there are ways to improve health not feeding raw, or not completely raw (a little would be better than none).

Personally, I have an internal issue with feeding whole parts, so I feed ground with the bone, and supplement with eggshells when I feed meat without the bone. I also do a lot of variety - grass fed lamb and organs, grass fed beef and organs, free range turkey, rabbit, lots of free range eggs, canned sardines (sometimes salmon), green smoothies/juices/pulp, goat yogurt, etc. I stay away from most chicken because it is very difficult to find it raised properly, but I know many people who do feed it as their main food.

If someone is opposed to feeding raw for whatever reasons, I would encourage a homecooked diet - real wholesome food as opposed to dog food. If this is not possible, I would recommend a very high quality natural dog food (read the label and recognize/fully understand the ingredients), and supplement with real wholesome unprocessed food as much as possible. Free range eggs go a long way health wise in a dog's diet whatever is fed, and you can dry eggshells, grind in coffee grinder - this is great to add as a supplement. Of course, green smoothies (heavy on the greens). Canned sardines/salmon are also great. Supplementing with fish oil is highly recommended, and a green food powder would be a great addition. Probiotics are so important in the world we live in - this is what actually helps to fight off harmful bacteria that is literally everywhere including in all of our bodies right now - it is a balance of good and bad, and the bad is winning in our world today - man has become an expert at killing bacteria, including the good bacteria that is absolutely necessary for our survival. In other words, the bad guys are winning, and we are helping them!

Sometimes tragic things like this happen unexpectedly, and we never know exactly why because there are a multitude of reasons that health fails (it is never due to one cause and that is why the actual cause of most diseases is listed as unknown, but it is almost always a general problem with the immune system due to a variety of issues - many due to modern medicine in combination with the body trying to survive under daily chemical assault with a lack of proper nutrition). Often it is even made worse by the treatments that the vet administers when a dog is brought in (many horror stories regarding this), but standard medical practicing vets ('unenlightened' vets) ALWAYS blame raw if the owner is feeding raw. If the dog is not raw fed, they would just come up with some other possible reason such as a bacteria hanging around virtually everywhere (even on spinach!), or they use the good old backup, "Sometimes, we just do not know the reason why this happens", blah, blah, blah. But, if the owner is feeding raw, that is always the reason they give. I know of other dogs whose vets have blamed raw for health problems that was later proven not to be caused by raw food.

"Bacteria do not attack a healthy body. Most doctors worry about the bacteria. I do not treat the bacteria; I treat the animal' ----H. H. ROBERTSON, D.V.M.:

I have a friend whose best friend's 7 year old daughter was diagnosed with Leukemia (she has since passed away), but my friend was juicing for her and after she started receiving chemo, the doctors said she could not have anything raw at all - everything had to be cooked really well - absolutely no more healing juice allowed. Not even going to go into what I thought about this, but I guess there is always a chance that something bad could happen when you are being poisoned to death, literally. She actually ended up dying from a bacteria or fungus because she was so immune compromised. And, of course the doctors concluded it was the bacteria/fungus that killed her, even though they were so careful. Lesson learned - the treatment should always be on aggressively supporting the immune system to fight off whatever may come it's way as opposed to aggressively destroying it. At least, consider there may be a better chance of survival. But, this uncommon way is never given a chance, and will never be considered as long as the money and frame of mind is on the opposite side.

There is a reason why there is now an epidemic of staph infection that is antibiotic resistant and is randomly striking and even killing children in schools - not just older people weakened in hospitals. If you watch the news, you will hear that there are deadly germs everywhere just ready to pounce on innocent people. So, we are told to live in fear and run to the doctor for treatment, but are never told the real prevention/treatment - a healthy strong body that is slowly becoming extinct.

Of course, there are no guarantees (especially as there are many things that are out of our control and much to undo and fight against in our crazy toxic world), but we do the best we can, and just keep learning how to do better (that is what matters most). The more we learn and the better we do, the less likely we will be stricken, or if stricken, the more likely we will overcome. It is not easy to do this in our world today. I pass at least 30 vet offices to get to the one vet that understands what health means, and she has a waiting list of people wanting to get in to see her. And, the one human doctor I have found who is similar in her views has a year long waiting list. But, the most important lesson I have learned is that a vet/doctor is rarely needed if following natural health principles. And, I have learned how to deal with many health issues on my own - similar to how people used to be self sufficient. This is uncommon in our world today, so it makes it even more difficult, but very rewarding. And, I take most every opportunity to pass it on...

I believe that something more may have been going on with your dog that you were not aware of. Had your dog recently been vaccinated or taking antibiotics or other drugs - even flea and tick chemicals, etc. Over vaccinated/over medicated in the past - most dogs are, and this is a huge reason for health problems, and the connection is rarely made, if ever. Vaccinations can cause a multitude of health problems - many of them autoimmune diseases, interfering with the body's natural immune defense. It is infuriating to me that standard medical practicing vets cause more health problems than they help, and that they are often the reason that most dog's immune systems are compromised, creating a multitude of health problems that they then treat with more harmful methods, and blame the owner for feeding a species appropriate diet that the dog's God/nature given system should be able to easily handle. Especially if man did not interfere so much with chemicals/drugs/vaccinations. The creation of highly processed 'food' made from questionable and many times disgusting waste ingredients that they named 'dog food' is directly related to the increase in human diseases in dogs (allergies, asthma, depression, diabetes, cancer, autoimmune disorders, etc. - pharmacies are now making special dog flavored drugs, including antidepressants!)

Owners who are simply trying to do what is best, listen to their vets who insist they ONLY feed this 'dog food' to their dog (along with an assault of toxins/chemicals routinely given to dogs) that sets up a downhill spiral of health problems due to malnutrition and toxicity that the vet then benefits financially from, and on top of that creates more problems through the harmful treatments that are given. This scenario is why there are vets/doctors/hospitals/pharmacies/cancer centers (even for children) everywhere, and they are a huge business. Not saying that some are not needed in certain situations, just that it has become something that it should never have become.

On a side note, I know of a vet whose assistant finally convinced him that it was harmful to vaccinate repeatedly, so he told her he had decided not to revaccinate his own dogs. She asked what he was going to do in his practice and he said, "Well, I have to pay for my children's college education".

Losing a dog is sad enough, but it is not right that you feel that you caused this - I STRONGLY do not believe that is the case. You were doing the right thing, and you do not deserve to feel this way. This is part of your journey... I have had a few teacher dogs that have helped me on my journey. I encourage you to go to http://www.aunaturelk9s.org/ and read the inspiring stories of teacher dogs who have touched/changed their owners lives forever, and future dogs (as well as the owners) have benefited from the lessons learned. I will also send a separate post with specifics.

Again, I am so sorry for your loss,
Sharon

[RawSun]

Firstly, IamLoved I am deeply sorry for your loss!

Wow Kaybee! Thank you for that long and heartfelt post. I, like you have a vegan dog. I have also been blasted in the past for discussing it here.

I love my dog, she is like a child to me... however, I personally don't feel okay with other animals suffering, and with the negative impacts to the environment that raising animals entails... just so that my dog can eat meat.

She is happy. She is healthy. She loves raw veggies as treats! I share green smoothies with her daily (o;

To be perfectly honest, and I know most wont understand this, even if she could thrive on meat versus survive on vegan... I would still feed her vegan. Just as I would still only eat vegan even if I knew that I could be healthier by eating some type of meat. Veganism is in my core. The circle of life is fine in nature but humanity and the animals we choose to keep as companions are not living in nature. I would not own an animal that could not live a healthy life on vegan food. What right do I have to keep an animal that will cause me to purchase how many cows, pigs, chicken, or fish over the course of my animals life? What right do I have to decide that my pet's life is more worthy than the farm animals that are being made into meat for my pet? I love animals, all animals, and I don't value a dog over a cow in any sense.

I have Ani Phyo's book as well, and my dog loves the raw dog food and treats!

[kyrie]

Hi all,

Normally when I see posts about vegans making natural carnivores into basically herbivores and perverting their natural ways of being, I lose the plot, and it makes me lose respect completely in sooooo many ways for vegans who are like that.

I don't believe as humans we have that right to try to force an animal to eat the diet that we choose for ourselves just because we are too precious to feed the companion animals we have according to their natural diets.

If you feel that strongly, don't get an animal like that. Get a chia pet or a parrot!

I live in Australia, and I grew up in Jamaica, and I guarantee you if you go swimming in summer at beaches around the Eastern Suburbs, or in South Australia during sharky weather or early dawn, a white pointer is not going to think "hmm, should I eat meat or be a vegan", before it attacks you!

Same with a hammerhead or a bullshark.

In fact in Aus we call boogie boards shark biscuits, and I know personally someone who was targeted in tandem by two sharks while out surfing. Just the grace of God that she caught a wave into shore otherwise she would have been shark chum.

I guarantee you that if you go into the Outback and have the misfortune to run into a hungry saltwater croc, much less if you swim in random waterholes and beaches around Cairns and the Top End, the average croc will not give two hoots whether you are a vegan or not. To that animal you are just prey, a nice bit of meat.

In the drought, if you left your pet in cages in your backyard, they'd be targeted by foxes, dingoes, hawks, and yes pythons. In fact there was a newspaper article here where a father was terrified because his dog was stalked and eaten by a python, and he was afraid the snake would next attack his toddlers.

If you go to certain beaches at night in Jamaica, kiss yourself goodbye, because you will have to deal with alligators, and odds are the gator will be the victor.

So I fully think it is the circle of life, in truth and in fact. Despite the fact that some vegans wish that Mother Nature was all cuddly and sweet, the truth is that nature is quite harsh and cruel and unforgiving and cold to boot, that's why the phrase was coined "Survival of the fittest". As Linda Loudermilk said " Mother Nature is the biggest b*&^h!

And mankind is only a top level predator with the aid of technology. Out in the bush, humans are insignificant and easy pickings, a good feed of fat, meat, bone and gristle and organs for other animals.

We need to respect that dogs are not human, nor are cats, and as their caretakers we should respect the fact that Nature made them predators and instinctively carnivores and not pervert or corrupt that, just because we think it is politically correct.

I just cannot agree with you. And when I see views like this, while I respect people's rights to their beliefs, I feel massively disappointed that there are vegans who cannot respect other beings' natures.

Carla.

[littleindiangirl]

To be perfectly honest, and I know most wont understand this, even if she could thrive on meat versus survive on vegan... I would still feed her vegan.

Your right, I don't understand this.

How bigoted to think we have a right to deny nature what it knows it needs... I think that is a very sad thing.

Why let an animal just "survive" when it's our duty to provide the best for them since we took on the responsibility to take them from their habitat.

This brings to mind the animals you see starving from malnutrition. How horrible to oppress our captive pets because of our own perceived morals.

I will never understand such a mindset, and honestly it disgusts me.

[LorenaAZ]

Whether you feed your pets raw or kibble, you're still feeding them animals raised for the same purpose.

I feed my dogs nature's variety for breakfast. They have an organic chicken formula. http://www.naturesvariety.com/raw_products
And for dinner I place an order with my local organic market for specific parts (like necks & backs, etc.)

At least if they're fed organic animals, the animals were supposed to have lived a more natural life with space to roam (as opposed to the disgusting commercial feed lots where they live knee high in their own excrements).

I understand why you are torn with your decision. I was too, but came to the realization that if I was going to share my life with carnivores, I would have to deal with the consequences of feeding them an appropriate diet.