Green Smoothies for Calcium: Oxalates vs. Goitrogens

[oxalicacidconcerns]

Okay, I've been trying to get 1.5 grams of calcium a day, with 900 mg a day coming from my green smoothies. However, I've only been using 1.5 pounds of collards or 1 lb of kale switched every other day to reach my calcium goals. However, I'm concerned that most of the calcium rich foods are in the cabbage family and have lots of goitrogens. Since many of you are more experienced with green smoothies than I am, do you think it is safe to consume kale and collards this way to obtain my calcium goals? Are there vegetables out there that are calcium rich that do not contain oxalates or goitrogens (or those substances in insignificant amounts). I really want to avoid both goiter or gallstones. Just so you know, 1.5 lb of collards has approximately 500 mg of oxalate, and rhubarbinfo com (on their poison information page) states that it takes 24 grams of oxalic acid to kill a 145lb man (but less to induce sickness). I've heard that lambsquarter has a lot of calcium but I don't know where to find it in NYC and don't know if it has oxalates and/or goitrogens.

[jenjen]

this is an interesting subject. these are the thoughts going through my head on this issue:
i'm still on the fence about the oxalic acid issue. i have read that the oxalic acid in raw greens is actually not an acid, yet, at all, and therefore does no harm. i read that it is only when the greens are cooked that the heat changes it to an acid and that where the problem comes in. i also am aware of the arguement that it doesn't matter whether they've been cooked or not, though i think the arguements stating that the raw greens are relatively harmless had more info and seemed to have more studies, where with the other side of the argument, it's never really clear whether the tests are done on cooked and/ or raw greens. so i tend to feel on the fence.

one thing to note that both sides of the argument seem to feel that baby spinach has not produced oxalic acid yet and is safer to eat than fully mature spinach.

with regards to calcium, there seems to be a new understanding regarding how our bones actually become stronge. that calcium isn't as essential (though we've been brain washed by the dairy industry to think it is) as magnesium and silica. there is a great thread on this on this site somewhere. we talked about how japanese women and african women had the strongest bone density in the world though they only consumed between 300 -500 ml of calcium/day - and niether consume dairy. it was the other minerals in thier diet which they needed for real bone strenght. makes sense, when you think that the countries with the highest milk consumption are also the highest in osteoperosis...how can that be? when there are areas in japan and africa where they've never even heard of osteoperosis. you could go to youtube and type in "david wolfe calcium".
it's a 7 part talk he gives. really surprising info and very informative.

j

[oxalicacidconcerns]

So I'm mainly concerned with finding another vegetable that has a large amount of relatively absorbable calcium that does not contain goitrogens and has a low amount of oxalates (and if you know the mg of oxalates per 100g serving, that would be wonderful...) .

Also, if anybody knows, I think I might have to start fermenting my kale to inactivate the goitrogens (since I don't want to boil it obviously :-) ). I've been trying to call around to the various restaurant supply stores here in NYC and no one seems to carry a food grade fermenting bucket. Does anybody know where I can find one around Manhattan to get a cheap start in fermenting vegetables?

[Rawkinlocs]

I understand you being concerned because we have had fear instilled in us for a LOT of things. But you are making this waaay more complicated and stressful than it needs to be. Going and eating raw should not be so stressful and confusing.

You can also look to sesame seeds for calcium if the whole greens thing has you going in circles. And yes, I am aware that it is said that unhulled sesame seeds are highest in calcium than hulled but that they (unhulled) also have a small amount (about 3% from what I read in one place) of oxalic acid as well. So, get the hulled ones or the black ones. See, it (oxalic acid) occurs naturally in LOTS of plant foods. So, are we to really worry and concern ourselves over it? I mean, think about it...there seems to be a "risk" involved in just about everything we consume...dairy products are touted as being "THE" source of calcium for humans to depend on. Well, there are downfalls to that as well which is why people who've consumed dairy all their lives still end up with osteoporosis and other similar bone deteriorating diseases.

So, do you go with dairy or do you go with greens and sesame seeds? What do other plant-eating animals do? They eat what is biologically-appropriate for them and they survive...they do fine...they don't stress over it or try to figure out ways around it...they just eat what their instincts have them to eat and they're fine.

Please try not to stress too much over all these minute details of every little thing or else you will find yourself with absolutely nothing to eat!

[tanishamarshall]

I understand you being concerned because we have had fear instilled in us for a LOT of things. But you are making this waaay more complicated and stressful than it needs to be. Going and eating raw should not be so stressful and confusing.

You can also look to sesame seeds for calcium if the whole greens thing has you going in circles. And yes, I am aware that it is said that unhulled sesame seeds are highest in calcium than hulled but that they (unhulled) also have a small amount (about 3% from what I read in one place) of oxalic acid as well. So, get the hulled ones or the black ones. See, it (oxalic acid) occurs naturally in LOTS of plant foods. So, are we to really worry and concern ourselves over it? I mean, think about it...there seems to be a "risk" involved in just about everything we consume...dairy products are touted as being "THE" source of calcium for humans to depend on. Well, there are downfalls to that as well which is why people who've consumed dairy all their lives still end up with osteoporosis and other similar bone deteriorating diseases.

So, do you go with dairy or do you go with greens and sesame seeds? What do other plant-eating animals do? They eat what is biologically-appropriate for them and they survive...they do fine...they don't stress over it or try to figure out ways around it...they just eat what their instincts have them to eat and they're fine.

Please try not to stress too much over all these minute details of every little thing or else you will find yourself with absolutely nothing to eat!

I agree totally with Rawkinlocs, I had been doing some research on this oxalic acid and I was getting all worked up and found out that it is the cooking of the plant food that causes it to go up and that we should not be overly concerned if our plant foods are un-cooked.

[Stina]

Hi- not really addressing the issue but just wanted to mention sea vegetables from what I understand are loaded with bone-healthy minerals.
I routinely vary kale, collard greens, Swiss chard, spinach, parsley and cilantro in my smoothies and hope for the best.
That's my two cents and that's what about what it's worth :)

[Marin Mom]

I am interested in this subject because I am turning orange, not only my palms but my face also has an orange tinge to it. :eek: I don't eat or juice carrots and don't have a lot of tangarines, the only thing I have been doing differently is having spinach smoothies (just spinach and lots of it) every morning. Starting tomorrow I will "rotate the greens". Has anyone else heard of this?

[Davylp25]

I remember years ago when I first heard about this. Then I did research and came to the conclusion the raw, uncooked oxalates, are nothing to worry about...

Unless u want 2...:D

[nfracer]

I am interested in this subject because I am turning orange, not only my palms but my face also has an orange tinge to it. :eek: I don't eat or juice carrots and don't have a lot of tangarines, the only thing I have been doing differently is having spinach smoothies (just spinach and lots of it) every morning. Starting tomorrow I will "rotate the greens". Has anyone else heard of this?

All I can think of is "Willy Wonka"......"You're turning violet Violet!!!!" :eek: comes to mind.....Hmmmm, maybe someone else can shed some light....I know high vit. A can do this ie carrots, etc......but spinach I am unaware of it having that effect...What else are you eating more of?????? Stay away from blueberries (:D just kidding, I don't mean to poke fun. I really do hope you can get an answer!

On the other calcium posts, I am very interested in all of this too as I supposedly have osteoporosis but don't "fit" any of the characteristics! What foods are high in magnesium and or silica? Cucumbers have a lot of silica right? Thanks for the informative thread!

[oxalicacidconcerns]

Okay, so if uncooked oxalic acid vegetables don't pose much of a threat, what about cruciferous vegetables?

For some reason whfoods does not list collard greens as containing goitrogens, even though it is in the Brassica family... So you guys think it is okay to consume 1.5 pounds of uncooked collards every other day or every third day?

However, with kale, do you think it is safe to eat a pound of it every third day (or even every other day?)

For example, If you feed an iguana too much kale, it too might develop a goiter... It's also been documented in the late 60s that among ethnically identical groups, such as the people of Kivu Lake of the Eastern Democratic Republic of Congo, even though their iodine intakes were approximately the same, one group consumed cassava while the other didn't, resulting in the former group's high incidence of goiter.

Is it safe to eat a pound of fermented kale in a day?

Most cultures that have a staple of goitrogenic foods have the tradition of fermenting these foods (russian cabbage/sauerkraut or Japanese fermented soybeans...) which I assume allowed them to avoid the issue of goiter.

However, I've heard that it isn't safe to eat too much fermented food. I want to eat a pound of kale (fermented or uncooked) every other day for the calcium, but not if it will give me goiter or make me sick from bacteria and lactic acid overload!!!

(And I'm kind of iffy about sea vegetables since I don't want to overdose on iodine, which itself may lead to goiter!!!)

[Rawkinlocs]

This is why you rotate your greens. If you don't have it, pick up a copy of Victoria Boutenko's "Green for Life" book...it's all about greens, green smoothies and will probably answer a lot of your concerns.

Don't try to have smoothies with the same greens daily, you rotate them...change them up...then you won't have to worry about it.

Your diet, period, needs to have variety. Don't focus so much on the greens that you miss out on everything else! I also recommend Alissa's book, "Living on Live Food" for raw food eating in general, if you don't have it. It's "lighter" and what I mean is, she doesn't present raw in such a way that you are on guard of everything...she makes it doable!

You don't have to have a lb. of greens (fermented or otherwise) a day...just eat what your body is asking for! If you have a "greens phase" where your body is simply craving lots of greens, then have them and once your BODY has had enough, it will no longer crave them and you may be onto something else like fruit or nuts and seeds...learn to eat intuitively and listen to the needs of your body. The stress alone will cause you to get the very thing(s) you're trying to avoid getting...just enjoy being raw and stop worrying so much...it's not healthy!


Okay, so if uncooked oxalic acid vegetables don't pose much of a threat, what about cruciferous vegetables?

For some reason whfoods does not list collard greens as containing goitrogens, even though it is in the Brassica family... So you guys think it is okay to consume 1.5 pounds of uncooked collards every other day or every third day?

However, with kale, do you think it is safe to eat a pound of it every third day (or even every other day?)

For example, If you feed an iguana too much kale, it too might develop a goiter... It's also been documented in the late 60s that among ethnically identical groups, such as the people of Kivu Lake of the Eastern Democratic Republic of Congo, even though their iodine intakes were approximately the same, one group consumed cassava while the other didn't, resulting in the former group's high incidence of goiter.

Is it safe to eat a pound of fermented kale in a day?

Most cultures that have a staple of goitrogenic foods have the tradition of fermenting these foods (russian cabbage/sauerkraut or Japanese fermented soybeans...) which I assume allowed them to avoid the issue of goiter.

However, I've heard that it isn't safe to eat too much fermented food. I want to eat a pound of kale (fermented or uncooked) every other day for the calcium, but not if it will give me goiter or make me sick from bacteria and lactic acid overload!!!

(And I'm kind of iffy about sea vegetables since I don't want to overdose on iodine, which itself may lead to goiter!!!)

[Pop]

I am interested in this subject because I am turning orange, not only my palms but my face also has an orange tinge to it. :eek: I don't eat or juice carrots and don't have a lot of tangarines, the only thing I have been doing differently is having spinach smoothies (just spinach and lots of it) every morning. Starting tomorrow I will "rotate the greens". Has anyone else heard of this?

This is my first post here but I just wanted to chime in on this one--I'll go introduce myself after!

It sounds like you may be getting more beta carotene than your body needs. Orange foods are not the only ones high in the nutrient--red, yellow, and deep green (spinach!) tend to also be high in the nutrient. So far, no health risk has been linked with a high intake of beta carotene--turning orange, while maybe not aesthetically pleasing, seems to be harmless. It's reversible, so if you cut back on the beta-carotene foods for awhile, you should go back to normal. Beta carotene is a vitamin A precursor, so it's fat soluble, which means that your body is able to store it, so cutting back until you lose the orange tint won't make you deficient. Again, though, if you don't mind being orange, there's no harm in it.

As far as goitrogenous foods go...I'm hypothyroid and have done a bit of research on goitrogens. From what I can tell, they are nothing to be concerned about unless one does not have a good intake of iodine, as goitrogens can prevent iodine absorption. Apparently, most places in the U.S. have significant amounts of iodine in the soil, but I take kelp supplements a few times per week just to be on the safe side. I have consumed a vegan diet based on goitrogenous foods for several years (peanut butter, soy, broccoli, beans, etc.) to no ill effect to my thyroid (I was hypothyroid before becoming vegan--before I even tried soy) and have maintained healthy hormone levels despite my diet. What I'm saying is that you really don't need to worry about goitrogens, but if you want to worry about them anyway, just make sure to have a reliable source of iodine in your diet (very few people in the U.S. develop goiters now that the use of iodized salt is widespread), and maybe even have some blood work done from time to time to reassure that you're healthy.

[mousebandit]

To the OP, I would ask why you are trying to get so much calcium in per day? I've been reading a lot and sort of struggling with trying to meet "recommended daily allowances", especially since I am pregnant, and the more I study, the more I realize that those amounts are based on assimilation rates from cooked foods, and it has become unavoidably clear to me that people with high-raw and 100% raw diets DO NOT have the same requirements - there is just no way around that. So, despite my ongoing concerns that somehow I'm starving my baby, or not going to have enough protein to build up my blood supply, I am going with a high-raw diet, and just doing what feels right to me and my body on a day by day basis. Most days I take some vitamin supplements just to "cover my bases" but lots of days I don't and I don't worry about it, either.

So, just wondering why you are trying to get so much calcium in, and maybe that can help us advise you better.

To the lady that is turning orange, this is just a guess, but in your pre-raw life, were you hard on your liver, and maybe now it is cleansing itself? Lots of OTC medications in addition to other substances, can be very taxing on the liver.

Good luck!

Tracey Mouse

[Marin Mom]

Good question Tracey but no, I wasn't a drinker or substance abuser. It started with the spinach smoothies which I've been consuming in large amounts for the last couple of weeks. I just passed the 6 month raw mark and this didn't happen on the other green smoothies.

My SAD mom thought this was a hoot and e mailed me this taken last weekend.

Cindy

4022

[tanishamarshall]

Good question Tracey but no, I wasn't a drinker or substance abuser. It started with the spinach smoothies which I've been consuming in large amounts for the last couple of weeks. I just passed the 6 month raw mark and this didn't happen on the other green smoothies.

My SAD mom thought this was a hoot and e mailed me this taken last weekend.

Cindy

4022


Wow you can really see the orange...

[oxalicacidconcerns]

to mousebandit:
Well, not just for the calcium but for the whole spectrum of minerals leafy greens provide...

I'm particularly concerned about my dental health and the fact that I have two cavities that need to be fixed. Also, studies show that vegans with insufficient calcium intake do have low bone density but those with sufficient calcium intake have normal bone density. But I'm particularly concerned about my dental health. I don't want any more cavities, I want to have the rest of my natural teeth into my 80s... Some native societies might get away with lower calcium intake but we don't know what else they're doing to have such strong teeth... And if you don't have teeth strong enough to digest food properly, I almost feel like it's "game over", in other words safeguarding for dental health is nothing to play with...

[jenjen]

silicon and magnesium. this is what you need. ohnestly just set aside the calcium debate for 1 hr. go and read/learn/listen/watch as much as you can about silicon and magnesium. i swear, you will start to have a new perspective.

don't forget that many 'studies' are funded by big dairy and big pharma who want to the results to swing in their direction.

also, the vegans that were tested, seriously most vegans don't look healthy to me at all...but raw vegan is literally another ball park, it's not even on the same planet.

go to you tube and type in 'david wolfe calcium' it's a 7 part talk he gives and it's very very very interesting.

[edwardudell]

Hi,
My doctor recently told me I have the beginnings of kidney stones. I also noticed in one of my toes an occasional little sharp pain in movement, which I gather could be attributed to the depositing of oxalate crystals. I think these beginnings of kidney stones could be due to my transitioning to a raw vegan diet with large amounts of raw chard and spinach over the last couple of months. It´s also quite possible the large amounts of spinach and chard had nothing to do with it. Nevertheless, I don´t think it makes sense for me to continue with green smoothies based on chard and spinach until my stones disappear or this controversy about oxalates is better resolved. I´m disappointed about that, because I was very up on the green smoothie idea as a way to get large amounts of clorophil into my diet.

I´ve been researching this question in the last week and here´s what I´ve found, for whatever it´s worth:

1. There seems to be some disagreement among authorities about which foods are high oxalate and which are low or medium. For example some seemingly reliable authorities say kale is low, but other authorities say it´s high oxalate. But there are areas of consensus, for example all seem to be agreed that chard and spinach are high oxalate. It also may be the case that there is not really much disagreement among the real experts, and that if you spend enough time to find out who really has studied the question, they generally agree with each other.

2. The experts all seem to agree that drinking lots of water, especially with lemon juice, protects against the formation of kidney stones. Amounts suggested seem to usually be between three and four quarts water per day. So many foods have oxalates that sometimes the advice given is to not worry about which foods are high oxalate, but only about taking enough water every day to stop crystallization of oxalates in your kidneys and extremities. But the people saying that probably are not thinking of green smoothies made with high powered blenders dissolving huge amounts of spinach in a single drink. So I ask myself whether I can do spinach smoothies if I drink enough water during the day, even though I have the beginnings of kidney stones? Don´t know, and till I know better, I guess I´ll be playing it safe. Kidney stones beyond a certain small size are said to be extremely painful.

3. The lady who runs the Greensmoothiegirl website advised me that she didn´t think green smoothies with chard and spinach would be a problem even for someone with the beginnings of kidney stones, and advised adding a bit of fat to the smoothy to aid absorption/prevent crystallization of oxalate, and repeated the advice to make sure to drink a lot of water during the day. And I seem to recall Gary Null in some book says one need not worry about oxalates in green veggies, but I don´t remember the details of what he said and whether it would apply to someone already with kidney stones.

Well, I´m interested in any specific experience or info anyone may have about this question, as I´m finding it a little more difficult to maintain a raw vegan diet when I can´t eat dark greens much. I find myself eating more fruit as a proportion of my total diet, and I don´t really like that feeling so much. I guess I could pull together a bunch of other low oxalate veggies, but with those one doesn´t get the large amounts of clorophil I guess. I live currently in Uruguay in South America, and the available produce is not as various as in a U.S. city. Comments appreciated.

[jumpinggirl]

I had the same suspicions about large amounts of raw kale/cruciferous vegetables, and so began fermenting my kale smoothies. i did this with whey made from raw yogurt, though there are other ways to ferment as well. (and yes, too much fermented food is difficult on your digestion- can lead to gas and bloating- its really meant as a condiment) because of these limitations to dark greens, i do not think you can get all the calcium you need just from dark greens, and so need many different sources.
on that note, raw dairy, especially cultured in the forms of raw cheese, yogurt, and butter is high in calcium, as well as enzymes and healthful, unadulterated fats and proteins, and lower in lactose. also, if you are having problems with your teeth, raw fish (low mercury of course) in the form of sushi or ceviche is very high in absorbable calcium- and is what has been credited to the bone health of the japanese. in general, its very difficult to measure exactly how much of something as trace as calcium you are getting because you cant measure how much your body is actually absorbing- i think its best not to worry about exact amounts, but to consume what feels good to you and to get an array of different sources so as to gain balance.
if you are trying to be vegan and are having dental problems, i would suggest that you may have hit a wall...although this suggestion might get me kicked off this site. i myself was vegan for 7 years, and suffered a lot of adverse effects, most notably dental. to see my story "experiences with veganism" you can check out my blog www.jumpinggirl.wordpress.com

goodluck to you,
jen

[rawfoodistdavid]

to mousebandit:
Well, not just for the calcium but for the whole spectrum of minerals leafy greens provide...

I'm particularly concerned about my dental health and the fact that I have two cavities that need to be fixed. Also, studies show that vegans with insufficient calcium intake do have low bone density but those with sufficient calcium intake have normal bone density. But I'm particularly concerned about my dental health. I don't want any more cavities, I want to have the rest of my natural teeth into my 80s... Some native societies might get away with lower calcium intake but we don't know what else they're doing to have such strong teeth... And if you don't have teeth strong enough to digest food properly, I almost feel like it's "game over", in other words safeguarding for dental health is nothing to play with...

Low bone density is not something bad in and of itself. Slim people tend to have lower bone density, while larger people have higher bone density. If people are carrying a lot of weight long-term the body tends to adapt.

Likewise, people who chew their food have denser jaws and better dentition. Wonky teeth are rare in wild animals but kids who grew up gulping and slurping processed slop provide easy money for orthodondists.

Google Dr Nara and read about how teeth remineralize.

[TaupeRawMan]

Trying to research the oxalic acid issue and found this study which shows that cooking decreases the oxalic acid...different that what I have read on raw food boards. However, those posts haven't referred to studies. I am hoping to find a study that shows it is better in the raw form....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15826055?ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum