B-12 ~ some thoughts

[justinesmith]

I was thinking about this today ~ how we can "only" get B-12 from animal products, nutritional yeast etc and how we should supplement as raw vegans. I've been working on my masters degree in holistic nutrition and I read extensivley about B-12 and found that it is manufactured by bacteria in the intestines. It reminds me of the whole "drink cows milk for calcium" when if we just go to where the cows get their calcium (greens), we're better off. Now, I'll just use cows as an example but if we "eat steak for B-12" why don't we just go to the source? The source being good flora and bacteria in our intestines. I wonder if we were all more diligent in tending to our healthy flora and bacteria if B-12 would even be an issue. What is the correlation between heavy anti-biotic use and B-12 deficiency? Just my ramblings but I thought it was worth thinking about. :)

Oh! I just took a big swig of my Kombucha ~ also high in B-12 because of the bacteria that is formed during fermentation......the plot thickens.

[Eva]

Oh! I just took a big swig of my Kombucha ~ also high in B-12 because of the bacteria that is formed during fermentation......the plot thickens. You're too cute...

As for the B-12.... I'll be really curious to hear what you find out. I think there are a lot of things that humans don't know about our own bodies and that if we're really just now even discovering vitamins 100 years ago or so.... well, it just would make sense that there are things we don't know about what the body needs!

[tanishamarshall]

Not sure if I get what your asking but here are my thoughts.

I was just reading about B-12 on another website, I'm not sure if it's appropriate to place the link here but if you would like it please email me and I'll send you the link, it talks about being raw and B-12.

It has been found that there are more meat eaters who are B-12 Deficient then there are vegans, so it's really confusing. We are made to think it's just vegans but in fact it's not just vegans.

I currently take e-3 Renew Me (It's a green powder) which has spriulina and some other great stuff and it has B-12 in it.

[ladypeace82]

Sounds like the grounds for a good research paper, or the need for a grant to do some extensive research. :)

[justinesmith]

Not sure if I get what your asking but here are my thoughts.

I was just reading about B-12 on another website, I'm not sure if it's appropriate to place the link here but if you would like it please email me and I'll send you the link, it talks about being raw and B-12.

It has been found that there are more meat eaters who are B-12 Deficient then there are vegans, so it's really confusing. We are made to think it's just vegans but in fact it's not just vegans.

I currently take e-3 Renew Me (It's a green powder) which has spriulina and some other great stuff and it has B-12 in it.

IMHO meat eaters can be more deficient in most nutrients ~ their diet just doesn't support health. I guess my thoughts were that if our bacteria was fully supported there would be no need for supplementation of B-12 because it is actually bacteria that creates B-12. I tend to ramble when I get an idea... sorry :o

[justinesmith]

Sounds like the grounds for a good research paper, or the need for a grant to do some extensive research. :)

I wish! :D

[DavidZaneMason]

Where do COWS get it? LOL. Soil-borne bacteria. If you concerned....grow some of your own organic greens...fruits....herbs...vegetables.....and just don't SANITIZE them....and I'd wager you get a bit of b-12 in there! Ha! ha!

-Happy holidays.

-David Z. Mason

[tanishamarshall]

IMHO meat eaters can be more deficient in most nutrients ~ their diet just doesn't support health. I guess my thoughts were that if our bacteria was fully supported there would be no need for supplementation of B-12 because it is actually bacteria that creates B-12. I tend to ramble when I get an idea... sorry :o

I know wht you are saying. The article that I mentioned above talks a lot about B-12 and it being a bacteria. You might find the article interesting. Here is a snippet you might find interesting.


“Although animal and dairy
products are a source of vitamin B-12, the
natural soil microbes and bacteria found on
wild food, unwashed garden plants, and
also those supplied by plant fermentation
are typically adequate to supply the body
with vitamin B-12 needs. The natural
microbes and bacteria in the soil need to be
duplicated and colonize in our intestinal
tract for optimal absorption of nutrients.
Vitamin B-12 is produced by these natural
microbes and bacteria as they colonize in
the intestines.”
“A problem with the formation of B-12
occurs when there is a sterilization which
happens between the picking of the fruit or
vegetable and the moment it reaches the
mouth. Sterile environments are unnatural.
The soil microbes and bacteria, which grow
on raw fruits and vegetables, need to be
duplicated in the intestinal tract for the
proper assimilation of vitamin B-12 to
take place.” (The use of heat in the
preparation of our foods and nutritional
supplements destroy these important
microbes and bacteria.)

[tanishamarshall]

That snippet makes a lot of sense to me especially after reading a book about how some bacteria is important to our health.

[veganman]

Great topic! :)

I have been reading about B-12 a bit lately. There is a book called "Could it Be B12" that is very informative. One thing I have read is that Spirulina has an analog form of B12, not one that is readily useable by the body. I am still researching this and have recently had my b-12 tested through urinary MethylMalonic Acid (stated to be the best test as false positives/negatives are not possible with this method). I have been vegan for 23 years and raw for 1.75 years, so I am interested to see if I am deficient since reportedly @80% of the population is.

[justinesmith]

Great topic! :)

One thing I have read is that Spirulina has an analog form of B12, not one that is readily useable by the body.

I've read that too and it makes sense to me. Very interesting.....

[LearningDaily]

B12 on veggies is due to it being present in the soil, not the vegetable. B12 is present in the soil because some animal pooped it there.(or some human added poop there) All fine and good, but in order for you to ingest the b12 from the vegetable, you must not wash the poop filled soil off of it. Not my bag, but I'm not everyone.

It is also my understanding that the b12 produced by the bacteria in our intestines is lower down the line than where the b12 absorption takes place or something like that, but I can not remember exactly where I read this to quote a source. I lack intrinsic factor and therefore have had to supplement b12 via injection for years; I've read so much on b12 that it all just seems to run together most of the time.

I've also read several articles on sea vegetables being very unreliable sources of b12. However, I have not read any scientific information regarding this claim.


My take on it is this: With all of the horrific things a b12 deficiency can cause, why not just be safe and supplement. I mean really, you pee out any excess.

[RawKev]

I don't worry about b12 and I'm not deficient, my levels are normal without supplementation or eating poopy dirt. The only thing I get concerned about is vitamin d levels, during the cloudy rainy months. I refuse to supplement but a my naturopath suggested that indoor tanning twice a month and getting outside even when cloudy is enough to keep the body producing vit D through the winter.

[Zaphirah]

I don't worry about b12 and I'm not deficient, my levels are normal without supplementation or eating poopy dirt.

too funny!

I've heard Storm Talifero has the basic same idea-that if cows can get it, so can we-by going directly to the source.

momentary thread-jack:

can you get Vit D from a sunny window-or do you have to be OUTside?

[justinesmith]

It is true that B-12 is not found in fruits and veggies (or nuts and seeds for that matter) because they lack the bacteria to produce it. Fermented fruits and vegetables do have B-12 because it is bacteria that causes fermentation and the source of that bacteria is not feces. I wouldn't eat poopy soil anymore than I'd eat an animals heart or kidney, but I do eat fermented foods. We are told everyday to eat animals for protein because they are the highest source but we know better than that. Yet we take their word for it on B-12 ~ my thoughts are simply that I would like to see more avenues explored on the subject. We all know, the highest source isn't always the best source. :) Well... off to go find the researchers and cause some problems.... :D

[EZ rider]

I have long wondered if the acids in coffee kill off the friendly bacteria in the gut that make the B12 ? Any thought or opinions on that ?

[aliciamatheson]

Justine,

I think you may have also mentioned somewhere else about adrenal fatigue - adrenal fatigue is directly related to low B12 levels so a supplement of B12 is always on the protocol.

[Stina]

too funny!

I've heard Storm Talifero has the basic same idea-that if cows can get it, so can we-by going directly to the source.

momentary thread-jack:

can you get Vit D from a sunny window-or do you have to be OUTside?

I've read several sources specifying unfiltered sunshine. However, surely it's still better than artificial lighting and some low level Vit. D is getting through.

[justinesmith]

Justine,

I think you may have also mentioned somewhere else about adrenal fatigue - adrenal fatigue is directly related to low B12 levels so a supplement of B12 is always on the protocol.

I am holding steady that even with a supplement if our bacteria isn't taken care of we could supplement till the cows come home and it wouldn't help. I am not pro or con B-12 supplementation, I am just curious as to how much of a role the bacteria plays and I would be curious to see how strong of a correlation there is. My original goal of this thread was to talk about bacteria's role and not whether supplementation is good or not. Sometimes the words don't come out on paper how they sound in my head though....

My adrenal fatigue was caused by years of chronic stress and poor diet ~ my B-12 results were normal. I also know that if I can't learn to control the chronic stress all the wonderful food in the world can't save me. But that is a story for another thread....;)

[EZ rider]

I think adrenal fatigue may be the result of two factors happening at the same time. First the adrenal glad is pushed to exhaustion by using caffeine and the adrenal gland decreases adrenal production. Second the gut bacteria producing the vitamin B12 get wiped out by the acids in coffee and other acidic foods and decrease their B12 production.

[justinesmith]

I think adrenal fatigue may be the result of two factors happening at the same time. First the adrenal glad is pushed to exhaustion by using caffeine and the adrenal gland decreases adrenal production. Second the gut bacteria producing the vitamin B12 get wiped out by the acids in coffee and other acidic foods and decrease their B12 production.

Anytime we have a flight or fight response to a situation our adrenals go to work. When someone is in a constant state of fight or flight, the adrenals can't keep up and can eventually shut down. Chronic stress creates havoc on all of our body systems. Getting the body back on track can be hard ~ it takes a lot of work. Cutting out caffiene was huge for me for my panic attacks but caffiene was just one of many factors. THe body works synergystically to work on a healthy level, getting my adrenals back on track is going to take much more than just taking a supplement. It can be part of the equation but it's not the only solution.
Our bacteria friends take a beating too. Stress, anti-biotics, acidic food, alcohol/drug use, aging... it all plays a part.

Our bodies are so very amazing aren't they?!? Wow. I am so sorry I treated my body so poorly for so long ~ it works so hard to keep me healthy.

[EZ rider]

I am confident that fresh, raw, living foods support the body with what it needs to be healthy and if I didn't truly believe that I wouldn't be an all raw food eater day in and day out. Keeping my raw journey on course is the path to continually better health for me :)

[Rwmomto5]

I take the scientific research of both Dr. Clement and Dr.. Cousen's seriously. What they found was that the majority of live fooders were B12 deficient when they went in and did blood work.

Brian explained that this change had to do with an anatomical change in humans in the last several hundred years. He studied changes in the human intestines going back as far as 1700.

Both of them advise supplementation and I follow that advice.

Meat eaters are also deficient. There is a 2008 study coming out on this subject (B12 and live foodists)

[EZ rider]

Brian explained that this change had to do with an anatomical change in humans in the last several hundred years.I wonder if this change occurred as an adaptation to man discovering fire and changing the way they prepared their food ?

[tanishamarshall]

Interesting info. I think it's just best to take a supplement.

[Dakini]

Gabriel Cousins wrote a interesting article on B12,
http://www.alivewithgabriel.com/site.php/arti/read/living_foods_-_the_next_evol12/

In regards to the colon being a source of B12 he writes:

"Although bacteria in the colon do produce B12, it is not reabsorbed into the system. Published research has shown that if people eat an extract of their feces they will not get a B12 deficiency. Although this may be considered natural, it is not something that I recommend. There are far easier and tasteful ways to build the B12 such as taking a supplement or eating B12 fortified foods. Whether one’s colon is clean or not, B12 does not get absorbed from the colon. A reasonable dose is 10-100 micrograms per day. Research shows that a daily intake best approximates the natural intake pattern. Vegan tablets are available from a variety of companies; Twin Labs has gelatin in its tablet and therefore is not vegan. There are three forms of B12: cyanocobalamin, methylcobalamin, and hydroxycobalamin. Although all three forms work, but cyanocobalamin probably should not be used in people with kidney problems or who smoke. In some studies with people with severe B12 deficiencies oral doses of 1000 micrograms per day for two months worked as well as 1000 microgram injections repeatedly given."

[iamacranberry]

I take the scientific research of both Dr. Clement and Dr.. Cousen's seriously. What they found was that the majority of live fooders were B12 deficient when they went in and did blood work.

Brian explained that this change had to do with an anatomical change in humans in the last several hundred years. He studied changes in the human intestines going back as far as 1700.

Both of them advise supplementation and I follow that advice.

Meat eaters are also deficient. There is a 2008 study coming out on this subject (B12 and live foodists)

You realize that that's because Dr. Cousens is trying to sell a raw B12 supplement, right?

There are countless studies on B12, who's deficient, why, etc. None of them agree. The fact is that there isn't conclusive evidence yet. More studies need to be done, and we need to figure out how to further eliminate biases in those studies so we don't keep having people come up with results that are the exact opposite of each other.

B12 is a bacteria byproduct. That we know. It's arguable as to whether or not it's absorbed by the body when it's produced in the intestine. A study of vegans from India and America showed that the American vegans were more likely to be B12 deficient because of their overly high obsession with hygiene than the Indian vegans were. The authors of the study hypothesized that the Indian vegans did not suffer deficiencies of B12 as frequently because there was more dirt remaining on their food.

There's plenty of dirt in meat, and I wouldn't doubt that people who eat filth in that form are also getting the B12 present in it--however, B12 is a heat-destroyed vitamin. I do not know the exact temperature and have been unable to find this information--so my guess is there isn't going to be too much B12 coming from all that highly cooked meat.

Cousen's testing method was also questionable. As we know very little about B12, it is unwise to assume the superiority of one B12 test over another until there is further evidence.

Lastly, if in fact we truly are meant to eat raw fruits and vegetables, our bodies would function in a manner similar to those of gorillas, etc. They're not B12 deficient.

I suspect it's the bugs and bacteria they eat. Maybe I'm wrong.

Either way, though, my levels are fine, and I'm not worried that the B12 in my kombucha, mushrooms (the dirt), and sea vegetables won't be absorbed.

[Dakini]

I wasn't aware that Gabriel Cousens was marketing a line of B12? I googled "Gabriel Cousens B12" I would think that if he was profiting from it, I would have seen a connection?

[northernstars]

Thinking that I might need to supplement with B-12, I decided to do a google search and found that the kombuha I make has B-12 in it. I am assuming that there is enough that I don't need to supplement also.

[EZ rider]

I have heard that Bee Pollen is a natural source of B12

[justinesmith]

I wasn't aware that Gabriel Cousens was marketing a line of B12? I googled "Gabriel Cousens B12" I would think that if he was profiting from it, I would have seen a connection?

Check www.awakenedshoppe.com That is Gabriels online store from www.treeoflife.nu and you will see that he does sell B-12 supplements. Not that there is anything wrong with that!! :)

[iamacranberry]

I wasn't aware that Gabriel Cousens was marketing a line of B12? I googled "Gabriel Cousens B12" I would think that if he was profiting from it, I would have seen a connection?

Yes, he is...I listened to a recent interview with him (this summer on rawsummit.com) and he spent half the time going on and on about it.

[RawHeaven]

IMHO meat eaters can be more deficient in most nutrients ~ their diet just doesn't support health. I guess my thoughts were that if our bacteria was fully supported there would be no need for supplementation of B-12 because it is actually bacteria that creates B-12. I tend to ramble when I get an idea... sorry :o

I agree.

It's also interesting to note that they now feed cows themselves (their chopped up, throw away bits) in addition to or as a complete substitute for greens. They're turning a vegetarian animal into something else. That's just crazy. So meat eaters may be getting even less of B-12 as a result of this new farming technique.

[Dakini]

Thanks for the link Justine!



Check www.awakenedshoppe.com That is Gabriels online store from www.treeoflife.nu and you will see that he does sell B-12 supplements. Not that there is anything wrong with that!! :)

[veganman]

I just got my MMA test back - it is within range, so I am not B12 deficient. Apparently, I am in the minority.

I am thinking, due to the research out there, that I will test either every 6 months or yearly.

[dalimeindacoconut]

I would absolutely love to hear more about your discoveries. I had to be concerned with this because last year and in years prior I was told I was anemic which in my little mind tells me I have to watch my iron intake and B-12 intake. So after being raw for about two months and doing lots of research online about B-12 I finally went and had my blood tested to find out if I was deficient with anything. The doctor was floored by my numbers and told me she rarely sees anyone who is this healthy. My anemia was cured. She also forgot to tell me about my B-12 and popped her head back in and said: 'oh and btw, you are not deficient with B-12, your numbers are a little low, but just keep eating those leafy greens and take your B-12 supplement'. Wholefoods has a vegan based B-12supplement. Can it be SAD based I don't know, but I just asked for vegan based. From what I read cows, etc. get it from the soil ergo why I may have eaten dirt as a kid. I am not opposed to eating dirt it actually tastes quite good. Please keep us abreast of your findings. This is a very important subject.

[dalimeindacoconut]

Oh and the B-12 spray I use is 2500 mcg from Wholefoods and it's the one without the $1M price tag by KAL. I like it because it is not in a pill form and it stands right next to my water so I won't forget. What type of B-12 supplements do you guys take?

[Azura Skye]

great thread!
I have also been reading lots about B - 12 recently.
As a gardner I know that the produce I plant can only be as healthy as the soil I grow it in. Why? Because healthy, organic soil is full of bacteria. Very important bacteria! So it makes sense that we consume parts of this along with the vegetable itself.
Today I had romaine lettuce from my garden in a smoothie and did not wash the dirt of it, in fact it's always made sense to me from an early age that washing organic veg washes off a natural part of our diet.

It's the same as being too clean in the house, over cleanliness leads to allergies as the body has never had to deal with certain bacterias.

To toughen our bodies we need to expose them to all sorts, hence why we get innoculated - we have a small dose of the virus so our body can fight it and remember how to fight it again.

Washing our vegetables is akin to not getting innoculated! We need to expose ourselves to small amounts of bacteria so our bodies can learn to deal with it.

[justinesmith]

YES! I read a great book called "The Extraordinary Healing Powers of Ordinary Things" and he devotes an entire chapter to bacteria and how important it is. We are so afraid in our society of "getting sick" that we sanitize EVERYTHING which is a disaster waiting to happen ~ hence the new "super bugs". So you can keep your sanitizer and your flu shots, I'm going to go devour a freshly picked carrot with my unwashed hands! :D I am also going to attempt my own little study of not taking B-12 but continuing with my flora, enzyme and HCL supplements and see how my B-12 holds out. Of course everyone is different but I'd like to know for me personally what works best. Again, I'm not opposed to B-12 supplements ~ just curious.

[Bananna]

Great thread...
I don't have much thoughts on the subject, other than the dirt from mushrooms, which was already mentioned.
Some people have the damndest time with b12 though, the few I know, weren't healthy eaters though.
Anna

[Marcus]

Ultra-Violet light is what our body uses (along with cholesterol) to produce natural Vitamin D. UV light does not penetrate ordinary window glass, so getting sun behind a window will not help. Plenty of visible light (obviously) & infrared light gets through glass, which is why sitting behind a window in the sun on a cold day feels so good.

[justinesmith]

Great thread...
I don't have much thoughts on the subject, other than the dirt from mushrooms, which was already mentioned.
Some people have the damndest time with b12 though, the few I know, weren't healthy eaters though.
Anna

Very true ~ there is a specific enzyme in your stomach that processes B-12. Therefore if someone is taking B-12 and still deficient they might be lacking this enzyme.

[iamacranberry]

I just got my MMA test back - it is within range, so I am not B12 deficient. Apparently, I am in the minority.

I am thinking, due to the research out there, that I will test either every 6 months or yearly.

I don't think you're in the minority; I think the majority of deficiencies are due to unhealthy diet....just as any other deficiency is due to this.

[veganman]

I just read this article...more interesting info:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/nov/b12.htm