Weight and Health - Victoria Boutenko

[barose]

(My apologies if this topic has been discussed before. I tried to do a search, but didn't come up with anything in depth.)

Recently, I saw Victoria Boutenko for the first time in person. I've only seen small photos of her in the bast (mostly from the chest up) so I never really had a good look at her before. She is a large woman, about a size 18-20 with a significant amount of abdominal fat. Before we started to speak, I thought she was an audience member. Needless to say, what she had to say about health, green smoothies, raw diet, etc was right on.

My problem is, everything I ever read, heard and my own experience points to that fact that excess weight, especially weight in the midsection is not healthy. At my heaviest, I was smaller and was ill, but I didnt eat raw vegan. Now, I doubt I could sustain a large amount of weight, even on a "bad" raw diet.

I know thin does not automatically equal health, but can excessive fat equal health? How can the two go hand in hand? Honestly, she is the only really heavy raw person I've seen and that confuses me.

[tali]

She did also state that she had been working on WHY she'd gained back her weight and with her new ideas was hoping to have it off in the next few months.

I, too, was surprised by how she looked. I was happy that she didn't skirt around the issue of it and was OK with explaining the situation.

I look forward to seeing her in the future and seeing if her studies were correct and if she's able to get her weight off.

I also look forward to her new book .. perhaps she'll do it as an eBook and then we don't have to wait for it to be published. *G*

[barose]

Ah! That was probably after I had to go. :( I am looking forward to her new book as well!

[tali]

Hopefully someone else will chime in about what her reasoning was .. since for the life of me, I can't recall.

I was so tired by that point, it'd been over 2 hours of talking. It was all very interesting but it'd been a long day for me and I think my poor new raw brain was overwhelmed.

[the_lab_rat]

I was surprised too! I'd seen photos, but like you said Carla, they were face only, or too small to tell her size. Later on, almost near the end, I do recall her saying she wanted to figure out why she'd gained weight (or hadn't lost?) and she hoped to work on that by the time her next book is out. But I don't recall her giving a reason for the excess weight. Maybe she doesn't exercise a lot? Or maybe some of it is genetics? She has a pretty solid build for a woman; I doubt she could ever be really skinny anyway.

Carla, I agree excess fat usually can't be healthy... and I don't know how to rationalize that, because otherwise she did seem to be healthy, and we know she eats the best diet possible. Maybe she is one of those rare "fit fat" people (and btw, I don't mean her any offense by any of this...I thought she was an amazing and vibrant person.) Maybe it's the kind of thing where her body has been working on detoxing or healing other problems before getting rid of the excess weight. Anyway, yeah, I'm curious to see her progress too!

[luckitri]

There are diseases that can cause that kind of weight and although we may want to believe that raw can cure anything - maybe it cannot. Especially if it is an endocrine disorder and you don't know you have it because you have not been tested - well then you can not target your raw diet to that purpose.

[Rawmommie]

Yes, there have been threads about this before, but I don't remember what the last one was titled. I'll warn you, sometimes this can get heated as it's offensive to some that her weight comes into question at all. I understand she's in the spotlight though, so it comes with the territory.

I've been raw for almost 3 years. I've had slips here and there, but basically 100% all the time. The times I have slipped, it has been something small and I'm right back to 100%. I weigh 195 pounds.

It's frustrating b/c I eat better than ANYONE I know and yet, I'm still a pleasant size 14 (I've realized I'll never be skinny). I'm also tall and have been overweight the majority of my life and up to 260 at one point, so I don't feel *fat*, I'm ok with who I am.

BUT, it's VERY frustrating to tell people about my raw lifestyle. VERY. I am embarrased to tell them all the health benefits, etc. for fear that they will look at me and think "yeah, right, then why is she still overweight?"

I've learned that our bodies really are different. I've watched people on this site for years now chart what they eat, etc. and I can eat the same or less as many of them and not lose a pound. I also know people who eat bigmacs all the time and are skinny. I believe that some people burn food slower than others, just like some people get cancer easier and some people have bad teeth. It's not JUST about the raw lifestyle. I get frustrated when I hear people tell others that they will lose weight no matter what on raw b/c it's not necessarily true (although the majority loses easily).

So anyway, there IS a reason I have stayed raw for almost 3 years. I have kicked depression, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, sickness, acne (for the most part), among many other ailments and I know I'm healthier than I ever was eating SAD. I have kept off weight and lost some, I think I was 210 when I first went raw.

Victoria has such great info on HEALTH and I hope that everyone realizes that just b/c she holds weight more than most people, she still is a wealth of information! :)

[rawsurfer]

i think eventually, regardless of genetics, all of our bodies will normalize and will lose excess fat. a lot of fat can be really hard to break down stuff made of plastic fats in fast food and what not. i think a low fat high green diet will eventually take care of this.

i can hear veganforlife already

[tali]

I hope that I haven't come across as critical, because that isn't my intention. As I was the largest person in that room I know how it feels to be judged on your size.

I think that sometimes we don't give our bodies enough credit for what they do for us. They may take us up in weight for no apparent reason but they know what they are doing and sometimes we just have to trust that they are smarter than we are. :)

[luckitri]

This is true Tali. Maybe my body is not losing weight now because of my severe osteoporosis. Maybe it knows I need the cushioning! LOL!

RawMommie, I am appreciating your wisdom more and more, on this and on other threads.

[Veganforlife]

Okay, here's my thoughts on this. How many years was Victoria eating poorly? A lot. How many years has she consumed green smoothies - probably not as many. I don't know if she works out which IS a key component in eating raw, whether it be green smoothies or however one eats raw. I'm thinking that is a big factor in Victoria's size. Also, every body is different.

And this:

Victoria has such great info on HEALTH and I hope that everyone realizes that just b/c she holds weight more than most people, she still is a wealth of information!

is so, so true.

[Azura Skye]

She might just eat a lot - This year I have been consistently the same weight - because I keep doing the same things. Eating quite a lot for one thing. so although I'm happy in one respect that my weight isn't all over the place, it does mean that I will have to change how much I eat if I truly want to lose some fat!

So- basically if you keep doing what you keep doing - you will keep getting what you always get!

[shine72]

Don't anyone blast me, but she is also a Russian woman. I have Polish and Ukraine in me heavily, and even when I was small for me, I was never super small. I had thick thighs and strong arms that were big for a girl. Some of it IS genetics. Even if Victoria were to lose all the weight she, or anyone else, wanted her to lose, she will probably not have a small body, because I don't think she has a small build.

I for one, applaud her for the work she has done, and for the message she puts out. She took a huge risk taking her family raw, which made it MUCH easier for someone like me to do. I think it is definitely more important to be healthy than it is to be small. And she is DEFINITELY healthy!:D

[barose]

I wanted to point out that my post wasn't meant to offend her or anyone here and I'm glad no one here has taken it the wrong way. I will never judge her or question her information just because of her size---but it does have me wondering.

I understand the role genetic play into weight/size. I will never be super skinny or have a "straight" build. I have curves, large bones and muscles and to lose that will probably be unhealthy for me. The other day someone (stranger) asked me if I had implants.:rolleyes: Ummm, no, I just wasn't meant to have small breasts no matter what the rest of my body looks like.

You're right, there are so many factors involved such as genetics, diet, current and past state of health; there probably isnt one reason.

[rawOrchid]

I think she is hands down absolutely inspiring, beautiful and truly a wonderful and powerful voice in the raw food movement. She has this ability to transcend amazing information through to many people. Green smoothies have just started making their appearance all over... how great is that?

I think, personnaly, I'm just truly grateful for all that she gives to us all as she is really an example of health, awareness, and mindful lifestyle choices, whatever her waist size is.

:)

[Veganforlife]

I wanted to point out that my post wasn't meant to offend her or anyone here and I'm glad no one here has taken it the wrong way. I will never judge her or question her information just because of her size---but it does have me wondering.

I understand the role genetic play into weight/size. I will never be super skinny or have a "straight" build. I have curves, large bones and muscles and to lose that will probably be unhealthy for me. The other day someone (stranger) asked me if I had implants.:rolleyes: Ummm, no, I just wasn't meant to have small breasts no matter what the rest of my body looks like.

You're right, there are so many factors involved such as genetics, diet, current and past state of health; there probably isnt one reason.

Yes, there are many, many factors involved.
I can't for the life of me picture Victoria in a closet downing Krispy Kremes! LOL!!!

[RawCutter]

shouldn't the goal be to be healthy and not look a certain way? isn't that why we are all here? to be healthly?

[Veganforlife]

Oh RC - I wanna be healthy and have the bod of Paris Hilton!

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[barose]

shouldn't the goal be to be healthy and not look a certain way? isn't that why we are all here? to be healthly?

Before anyone jump down my throat and concur with your post with "amen!" and "ITA", I understand the ultimate goal is health, but I also understand the connection with excess abdominal weight and disease as well. As someone who's health improved after the weight starting coming off, I was curious. Though we may not know the reasons why right now, I haven't considered there could be other factors besides diet alone.

LOL at VFL!

[isabelephant]

I also saw Victoria speak when she was up here in Seattle. She explained that she and her whole family, after being raw for years, began to not thrive. They all lost energy and their desire for raw food, and they felt like they were missing something. Her body reacted by putting on weight (I imagine in this time she also lost muscle mass too) among other things.
That is what inspired her to begin research, thus finding the answer in green smoothies. What I took from her info in part was that the greens (when liquified) are a great source of protein (and many other nutrients) and she was lacking in these. As her body once again heals, it will become thinner. Still, she may never be skinny and thats ok. I love her honesty and her ability to ask many questions rather than pretending she has all the answers. I think its a good lesson in the fact that just because its raw doesn't mean you are getting all of the nutrients you need. Its quite a feat to get everything your body needs each day. It takes exploration, trial and error and asking questions. I also know she does not beleive in taking any supplements-including B12. I differ with her there...But I'm just a baby in this whole thing.
Who needs skinny? :p

[RawCutter]

Before anyone jump down my throat and concur with your post with "amen!" and "ITA", I understand the ultimate goal is health, but I also understand the connection with excess abdominal weight and disease as well. As someone who's health improved after the weight starting coming off, I was curious. Though we may not know the reasons why right now, I haven't considered there could be other factors besides diet alone.

LOL at VFL!

oh i hear ya barose

It's not just this thread. There are a few others in this forum where I read, 'losing too much weight ... my boobs are shrinking', 'I wanna loose muscle because it's not the way I wanna look'

after all the sacrifice and the effort and the pain and the talk, it all still comes down to that magazine cover you see in the checkout line

[britaniefaith]

to be completely honest, it's actually bothered me a bit as well, to see a raw foodist who is overweight (and really doesn't look THAT healthy IMO). but I absolutely LOVE her "green for life" book and I do believe alot of what she says (minus things like not eating lots of fruits, etc) I can't imagine living on greens ALONE but she has good points.. I just feel like she is not being truthful about what she is really eating.. I honestly can't imagine someone being her size when she says majority of what she eats are green smoothies.. that just doesn't make sense to me.. maybe I am being ignorant and I'm missing something but I'm just confused about it!

by the way, I don't think it matters if someone is overweight or not but I can completely understand why some people would be concerned or confused when wanting to stay raw and wanting to lose weight and seeing a raw food mentor who is overweight. I think skinny is over-rated but I also don't want to be overweight either and I don't think there is anything wrong with that...

[britaniefaith]

Yes, there have been threads about this before, but I don't remember what the last one was titled. I'll warn you, sometimes this can get heated as it's offensive to some that her weight comes into question at all. I understand she's in the spotlight though, so it comes with the territory.

I've been raw for almost 3 years. I've had slips here and there, but basically 100% all the time. The times I have slipped, it has been something small and I'm right back to 100%. I weigh 195 pounds.

It's frustrating b/c I eat better than ANYONE I know and yet, I'm still a pleasant size 14 (I've realized I'll never be skinny). I'm also tall and have been overweight the majority of my life and up to 260 at one point, so I don't feel *fat*, I'm ok with who I am.

BUT, it's VERY frustrating to tell people about my raw lifestyle. VERY. I am embarrased to tell them all the health benefits, etc. for fear that they will look at me and think "yeah, right, then why is she still overweight?"

I've learned that our bodies really are different. I've watched people on this site for years now chart what they eat, etc. and I can eat the same or less as many of them and not lose a pound. I also know people who eat bigmacs all the time and are skinny. I believe that some people burn food slower than others, just like some people get cancer easier and some people have bad teeth. It's not JUST about the raw lifestyle. I get frustrated when I hear people tell others that they will lose weight no matter what on raw b/c it's not necessarily true (although the majority loses easily).

So anyway, there IS a reason I have stayed raw for almost 3 years. I have kicked depression, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, sickness, acne (for the most part), among many other ailments and I know I'm healthier than I ever was eating SAD. I have kept off weight and lost some, I think I was 210 when I first went raw.

Victoria has such great info on HEALTH and I hope that everyone realizes that just b/c she holds weight more than most people, she still is a wealth of information! :)

I think your amazing for staying Raw even though you may be considered "overweight" to some people. If it's helped you with so many things then who cares if your not STICK thin? that's not attractive anyway. Do you mind if I ask if you eat alot of nuts and dried fruits?? I know that I've gained weight since going 100% raw because I eat a ton of raw deserts and nuts.. I'm now trying to do a low-fat version of raw food instead.

[shine72]

to be completely honest, it's actually bothered me a bit as well, to see a raw foodist who is overweight (and really doesn't look THAT healthy IMO). but I absolutely LOVE her "green for life" book and I do believe alot of what she says (minus things like not eating lots of fruits, etc) I can't imagine living on greens ALONE but she has good points.. I just feel like she is not being truthful about what she is really eating.. I honestly can't imagine someone being her size when she says majority of what she eats are green smoothies.. that just doesn't make sense to me.. maybe I am being ignorant and I'm missing something but I'm just confused about it!

by the way, I don't think it matters if someone is overweight or not but I can completely understand why some people would be concerned or confused when wanting to stay raw and wanting to lose weight and seeing a raw food mentor who is overweight. I think skinny is over-rated but I also don't want to be overweight either and I don't think there is anything wrong with that...


It is this kind of thinking (not picking you out BritanieFaith, speaking in generals here), that keep women on the verge of eating disorders to be what too many consider the "ideal". I'd rather be healthy and not the "ideal" of Americans, than the sickly "ideal" and skinny any day of the week. I'm sure Victoria probably feels the same way. She IS healthy. Healthier than most.

[rawmom2006]

I have to admit it does seem odd to me that she is so overweight and is raw. It may not be the polite thing to say but it just seems strange. Also I think when most people are looking for a healthy life style change they do look at outward apperances. It may not be right but that is how it is. Also Shazzie was going on about how a cooked person looked so why is it not ok to wonder why a person who is promoting raw does not look very healthy.
I have notice once a person starts making their living off of raw foods they sometimes have a tendency to hide things about what they really eat. I am not saying all people that make their living off of raw food are like that.

Everyone comes in different shapes and sizes and everyone is not going to be a size 2 or what ever, but being overweight is unhealthy.
I am about 45 pounds overweight and I never talk to people about raw foods because I am not a good example of raw. Once I am at a healthy weight I will tell people if they ask.

[shine72]

Before anyone jump down my throat and concur with your post with "amen!" and "ITA", I understand the ultimate goal is health, but I also understand the connection with excess abdominal weight and disease as well. As someone who's health improved after the weight starting coming off, I was curious. Though we may not know the reasons why right now, I haven't considered there could be other factors besides diet alone.

LOL at VFL!

I'm not taking offense to your post at all. Just pointing out that genetics, especially Eastern European genetics, play a factor, and are much thicker than what most Americans consider their idea of ideal.

[SmilingRawDancer]

Well I don't know if we can all honestly say that we KNOW that being leaner is healther, because the only things we have to base that on are cooked studies and standards.
Maybe some people raw or not are going to be heavier.
Maybe thick calorie-laden green smoothies do affect some people.
Maybe over(or under)-eating STILL causes weight gain and loss in people, raw or not.

Raw is best and healthiest, and I think most people naturally find their own intake balance on raw. But some people, myself included, haven't found that yet, apparently, because I still retain a thick layer of fat on my abdominals and thighs, despite the "eat it raw' mentality.

[EZ rider]

the "eat it raw' mentality.
Maybe the difference can be explained by the style of the raw foods eater. One style of raw food eating takes the food as it is found in the garden and eaten mono style or in simple combinations with other similar foods. In the other style of raw eating the foods are taken from the garden and processed in some way like dehydrating or powders and they are combined with other foods, usually in reciepes, that are not similar. This is more of a question then a statement. What do you think ?

[SmilingRawDancer]

I agree with you, but I put green smoothies in the "processed" category.

I become very full after eating just one apple, but I can make a smoothie with 3-7 pieces of fruit, and drink the whole thing.

[freelive]

It is very odd that Victoria is so overweight after over 10 years raw. And it is not genetics- I am eastern european myself and even though I have strong build from consuming dairy in big amounts(that's why we have tall and large frame people in Europe- think basketball player Sabonis).
When I was raw for 6 months at my lowest point I got to 112lbs(5'6), later filled out to 120 once my body stopped detoxing rapidly But then I gave in to cravings and slowly went back to 160 pounds.... Bigger build gives you big bones, but not bunch of fat. Cooked foods give fat.
There are though several conditions which are purely hormonal like high cortisol levels(usually because of the tumor in the brain parts that makes that substance)which can create weight problems even if person barely eats.
So I would say: either Victoria is not raw or she has hormonal problems.

[alicemagooey]

This is a good thread, and i understand that no one was meaning to offend or criticise.

When i saw Victoria recently, i wondered the same things.
I think all the previous threads are correct.. There are many differences and uniquenesses about each person.. Genetics plays a part, as does lifestyle, and so many things.

I remember one thing she said which amazed me..
She said that she felt that a person should consume 70 grams of fiber.
Now don't go spreading that around.. Some of the things she says are not supposed to be taken as 'Gospel'..or spread to the whole known world.
Besides, no harm can be taken from this statement, even if it were spread to the whole known world..I will not spread anything which i think may be taken ill because i also feel she is one of the GREAT Crusaders for HEALTH
and RAW, and a lifestyle of open mindedness and continual growth.

70 grams of fiber is a LOT.. i mean a LOT..

Anyway, i put her heftiness down to the fact that she travells almost constantly these days with her family.
Constant unfamiliar circumstances; different places to sleep,different places to eat;~ all cause great demands on a person, ( what to speak of a person,who by her own admission is not thrilled to have to get up and speak before hundreds.) I am sure she cannot get ALL the raw fruits and veggies she and her family need while travelling all of the time. Think how much effort it takes us to line things up in our own familiar homes, with routines and things..She has her family to think about, and book sales, and questions people ask and ask and ask.
I know they dehydrate quite a bit and eat crackers and things..which are not as good as RAW fresh.
Anyway,
It just does not seem like the most advantageous condition for optimum health.. Fact is, she is making great sacrifices to get the message out and get people enthused.. And that she does..!
We owe her a debt of gratitude..
And i know everyone on this thread feels the same way.
Also, she is constantly learning things and passing them on.
Not many people have persevered in this for many many years.
so that is just my two cents worth

alice

[EZ rider]

RAW fresh
Thats an interesting way to put it. If you look at it that way then the two groups of raw eaters I mentioned in my post above becomes:

RAW fresh & Raw processed

[ChaiLife]

She is a truly amazing woman and I hope that if she reads this thread that she does not get her feelings hurt. A woman's weight is a very sensitive topic.:o

But when you are eating raw and start gaining a little more weight than you would like to have, it would be nice to find the culprit. I wonder if she has much time to exercise.

[Sleek98]

I also saw Victoria speak when she was up here in Seattle. She explained that she and her whole family, after being raw for years, began to not thrive. They all lost energy and their desire for raw food, and they felt like they were missing something. Her body reacted by putting on weight (I imagine in this time she also lost muscle mass too) among other things.
That is what inspired her to begin research, thus finding the answer in green smoothies. What I took from her info in part was that the greens (when liquified) are a great source of protein (and many other nutrients) and she was lacking in these. As her body once again heals, it will become thinner.

Yep, I agree with her there, that is probably what happened. Add that to probably going through menopause, there are hormone issues to deal with too.
Plus, sometimes a persons body will have to gain weight, or not loose, while it is healing and repairing. It might just take her more time. It's only been a few years now that she discovered her greens! :)

[Bobbie]

My mum has been raw for a year with no slip-ups but she hasn't lost any weight.
She has an underactive thyroid and is on medication for it but even so can't lose weight.

She's 5'1" and 12 stone 6 lbs
She eats very little, its a real effort to get her to eat more than 1 small salad a day of lettuce, cucumber, tomato and apple. If I don't force feed her, that's all she eats. She's never hungry.

So if you're thin to begin with eating raw won't make you fat, but if you're fat to begin with eating raw won't necessarily make you thin! I thought a raw diet would cure her hypothyroid and get her off the meds but it hasn't so far. Maybe because she doesnt eat enough. She doesn't get the nutrition that cures diseases.

[EZ rider]

Maybe because she doesnt eat enough. She doesn't get the nutrition that cures diseases.
Have you tried to find a fresh made raw juice that she likes ? Juicing is a great way to get a lot of nutrition into a small volume.

[Eva]

I am half Hungarian, and like most of my family in Eastern Europe, I will probably never be overweight. I did not see many very large people when I lived there, either.

We DO all have a unique set of both genetics and circumstances, though. There are hormones (I think one is cortisol) that are affected big time by stress and unhappiness. You can eat the best diet ever and exercise just the right amount, but if you continue to have unmanageable levels of stress, weight gain is sometimes inevitable.

I have a lot of confidence in Victoria Boutenko, but I also do not walk in her shoes every day. I would like to think that she eats raw food as much as she advocates, but she is human. No matter what, she has inspired me and helped me with the information she wrote in Green For Life.

[wyjoz]

In a message dated 8/20/2007 4:57:41 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, victoria@rawfamily.com writes:

Dear Joz,
Is there any way for you to post my response? If yes, here it is:

Dear Friends,
Thank you for all your love and understanding. I think my next book will be on weight loss.
Enjoy your greens!

Victoria Boutenko

[Carol K]

I have to tell you all that this thread makes me breathe a sigh of relief from months of frustration! Everything I have read indicates weight loss from eating raw - yet, I have lost nothing. Altho my clothes are getting looser, I still have the "menopause" belly! Maybe raw does cause some to lose weight, but not all. I would just like that to be written in some of the books.

[britaniefaith]

My mum has been raw for a year with no slip-ups but she hasn't lost any weight.
She has an underactive thyroid and is on medication for it but even so can't lose weight.

She's 5'1" and 12 stone 6 lbs
She eats very little, its a real effort to get her to eat more than 1 small salad a day of lettuce, cucumber, tomato and apple. If I don't force feed her, that's all she eats. She's never hungry.

So if you're thin to begin with eating raw won't make you fat, but if you're fat to begin with eating raw won't necessarily make you thin! I thought a raw diet would cure her hypothyroid and get her off the meds but it hasn't so far. Maybe because she doesnt eat enough. She doesn't get the nutrition that cures diseases.

I am hypothyroid too and I definitely have a hard time losing weight but I'm not overweight and I notice that eating lots of raw fats makes me put on weight so i have to be very careful about that however i make sure to eat enough calories.. it definitely sounds like your mom is in major starvation mode which is probably having alot to do with why she isnt losing any weight...

[britaniefaith]

I have to tell you all that this thread makes me breathe a sigh of relief from months of frustration! Everything I have read indicates weight loss from eating raw - yet, I have lost nothing. Altho my clothes are getting looser, I still have the "menopause" belly! Maybe raw does cause some to lose weight, but not all. I would just like that to be written in some of the books.

are u eating lots of nuts, seeds & dried fruits??? that makes a HUGE difference. raw or not, not all people can eat alot of fat and lose weight.

[Stina]

Weight is an "aside." Maybe it's a karmic issue, perhaps it's how her spirit needs to fill the temple. Maybe fat cells got activated from SAD days. Maybe there are trapped toxins that the fat cells are protecting her from. Maybe what matters is that she's brilliant and beautiful.

[Queen Bean]

Beliefs are very powerful as well...some would say even moreso than what you actually eat. Your beliefs about your food can affect the impact it has on your body. Also there are beliefs about yourself and your weight. Some people won't necessarily lose weight from becoming raw. Exercise is vital. Maybe certain other tools are needed to change ingrained beliefs about weight. If you believe 'I am overweight'...it doesn't matter what you do, until you somehow alter the original belief through visualisation, thoughts, affirmations etc. Also, I think I read somewhere that Victoria was an extreme dieter for a number of years, which greatly affected her metabolism.

[GoingtoRAW]

I honestly was surprised when I saw pics of Victoria B. However, as I was reading these posts I was reminded of the fact that I adopted a vegetarian diet about 8 or 9 years ago (long before I even thought about adopting a raw diet), and I did not lose any weight. Yes, I gave up meat, chicken and fish but I did not give up my beloved dairy, sugar and lots and lots of bread and ice-cream and pop, and lots of other stuff that was totally not good for me.
When I would go out for meals with friends or attend family picnics and dinners, it was hard for people to believe that I was following a vegetarian diet because I was so overweight.

I believe that every body [I]is [I]different and we all, even raw, come in different shapes and sizes no matter what we eat. I am at least 130 lbs. overweight and I am working on that. I am so happy that eating raw has been working for me and I am losing weight. I have a sister who is almost 2 years younger than me. When it comes to eating, she can eat me under the table any day of the week yet she has a hard time keeping weight on and fluctuates between 104 and 115 lbs. In fact, she is always eating, cooking something to eat, or thinking about what she will eat next! I am 5'3 and she is about 5'5 or 5'6 and looks very thin - not anorexic or anything like that - but she is tall and thin. She refuses to exercise - she would be the first to admit that she is too lazy to exercise and it bores her. On my best day I can't eat as much as she can yet she remains thin and I pile on the pounds.

I say all that to say I wouldn't be hard on Victoria. I am not following her around and I don't know what she is eating. She says she is a raw foodist, it's not for me to say she's not. I just hope we can all just realize that every body is different and even with raw foods that doesn't mean we will all be thin. I know my weight loss slows down somewhat when I eat too many nuts or "processed" raw foods. I don't feel as light as I do when I am eating fruits, veggies and salads and I can get really bloated and feel down right heavy at times. Face it. Our bodies are going to what they are going to do even if we are eating all the right things. So I say give Victoria a break. I think she is great and she seems like a very compassionate person who just wants to spread her message. ;)

[Strong]

I know this is sort of a controversial statement on this board, but calories are impt. If you take in more calories thank you need, regardless of the manner (green smoothies filled with dates or big macs) you will gain weight.

Now, if your too many calories come from dates you will be healthier than if they come from big macs, but you will still be heavy.

IMHO.

[the_lab_rat]

Just wanted to emphasize that I meant no offense to Victoria. She seems like an amazing person, and I'd never judge her based on her weight. From what I've seen, she seems concerned only with teaching others about raw food and spreading her knowledge to help people (unlike some 'professional' raw foodists who seem more concerned with business or money or reputation). Green for Life is an amazing book that I've recommended to like 12 people since reading it a couple weeks ago.

Unfortunately though, when someone becomes well-known and a role model in an area like this, their appearance is going to come into question because people will wonder how it's possible to be overweight eating such a perfect diet. Many people turn to raw foods for weight loss, so I think it's a natural concern. When you hear people go on and on about how easy it is to lose weight on raw foods, it's surprising to see a long-term raw foodist who isn't skinny. That's not meant to imply anything negative about her, just that it is at first surprising. And actually, for me, it's not so much about the weight, it's about the health issues, because usually excess weight is not considered healthy (as barose originally posted). So it's just kind of a mystery...but not an attack on her personally. Actually I respect her very much and she's probably my favorite of all the raw food pros :) So I just wanted to clear that up.

[rawbeliever]

Be aware; When Victoria first came to the U.S. she gained A LOT of weight in a VERY short period of time (before she discovered raw). She's lost the vast majority of that weight via raw.

Also, it's been my experience that my weight plateaus at a certain point if I'm doing raw with more than 20% of my daily caloric intake coming from fat, and I don't lose any more weight no matter how raw I am. Only by reducing my (raw) fat intake do I start losing the weight again. I even gain a few pounds if I'm really consuming a good deal of fat (not necessarily more calories, just more fat...my caloric consumption is fairly consistant.)

[Rawmommie]

No offense taken, but there are some loaded comments in this thread! Ack! Just the nature of weight discussions! :rolleyes:


I just feel like she is not being truthful about what she is really eating.. I honestly can't imagine someone being her size when she says majority of what she eats are green smoothies..

Please, please reconsider thinking this way. I mostly eat salad and I'm still overweight. I would be pretty offended if someone said I must not really be eating all raw or eating just salad and still be overweight.


I don't think it is right to question whether someone is truely raw just b/c they are overweight still! THAT is exactly why I don't like talking about being raw with people. I figure they won't believe me b/c I'm still overweight after all these years. Luckily, I'm healthy looking and muscular, so I hold my weight well, but I'm certainly not skinny at 195 pounds.

Someone mentioned calories...I agree, but I also agree that EACH PERSON can take in a different amount, depending on their body. I've tracked my calories and I cannot lose weight unless I stick around 600-800 calories a day. I'm miserable that way, so I choose not to starve and eat that way.

Britneyfaith~ I don't eat many nuts or dehydrated foods. IF I eat them, I won't gain, but I cannot lose while eating them. I go through periods where I'll have some chocolate balls (cashews, dates & cacao) but other than that, my dehydrator has been in the closet since Christmas. ;)

There are MANY raw foodists that can lose eating nuts, recipes, etc. though, so I stick to my guns on this one-each person's body is different and can burn different stuff. My downfall is avocado's. I use them for my dressing on my salad, which is the majority of what I eat. I'm a salad-girl and love my greens. I usually have 1 avo on my salad, twice a day. Now, I know many people would/have still lost eating this way, but I just can't. I only lose if I skip breakfast, have a tiny salad with no avo and maybe 1-2 pieces of fruit a day...I don't want to live that way though. Sometimes I go through spurts where I will work hard to lose by eating like that, but I end up going back to loving my raw food, enjoying, and not starving.

[Azura Skye]

I think someone has already said this - but I agree and I think it's an aspect of weight gain/loss that gets overlooked - I think the mind is a very powerful tool indeed. If we focus on weight loss then we can get into a good/bad mindset over food and I think that adds stress - and I think stress in a big factor in weight gain. I imagine the body getting ready to battle when it's stressed, and as it has food put in it it responds by saying 'are you kidding me? I can't digest this now, i'm stressed I have to fight! I'll sort it out later - into the fat stores with you!"

I think deep breathing and being calm can really help, because over Christmas I do eat a lot! But I never put weight on, but sometimes if I'm stressed I eat lots and I actually put weight on. Perhaps with all the thoughts concerning 'correct' eating that comes with raw we're just getting a bit stressed!

But I agree, if you don't move your body then you are going to put weight on - grr : )

[NYbutterfly]

I know this is sort of a controversial statement on this board, but calories are impt. If you take in more calories thank you need, regardless of the manner (green smoothies filled with dates or big macs) you will gain weight.

Now, if your too many calories come from dates you will be healthier than if they come from big macs, but you will still be heavy.

IMHO.

I agree. When I first went raw I gorged on nuts, seeds and dried fruit, then wondered why I gained weight. I thought that I could eat anything, so long as it was raw, and not gain! Boy was I wrong. I strongly stand behind the "calories in, calories out" way of losing lbs. Eat only what you can burn off if you want to thin out. 2000 RAW calories is certainly healthier than 2000 SAD calories, but still as far as I am concerned a calorie is a calorie.

[GoingtoRAW]

I love eating raw. I feel better. I know I look better (even though I still need to lose a lot of weight). But for me I refuse to obsess about what I am eating on raw. I know that I feel differently if I eat more nuts and dehydrated foods and I know that my weight loss slows down - but I do still lose weight. I also know that I did not put on all of this extra weight overnight and I will not lose it overnight. I am convinced by what I have seen so far that if I stick with raw the weight will come off at whatever pace it's going to come off. It is also more of a health issue for me. I have diabetes, heart disease and cancer in my family and most of us are overweight. I have cousins in my age range and even a few who are a little younger (I'll be 50 this year), who have developed diabetes and have become very seriously ill. I am very afraid of that happening to me and I want to break the pattern of unhealthy eating in my family. So I will remain raw but I refuse to count calories. I like to eat! Period! If I'm going to count calories and obsess about what I am eating I might as well stay SAD. I have been able to eat what I want on raw and still lose weight and feel healthy so that works for me. I think we should all stop obsessing. And counting. That's my 2 cents worth!:rolleyes:

[NetKaPet]

Wow, you guys are really kind. I think it's nothing short of absurd that someone would give advice on healthy food intake when they are overweight themselves. If my dentist told me to brush, floss and avoid sugary foods, then had yellow teeth and a few cavities, I'd surely find another dentist no matter how great his advice was. There's obviously something going on with Victoria that needs to be addressed. So it would probably be best if she did so first, then came back to speaking. I'm sure this is her job, though, and she needs the income, but I'm bumbed out for sure to hear of her extra weight as her husband, Igor, is one of my reasons for starting raw to begin with. He said he kicked hyperthyroid and I'd love to be able to do that too! Now I have doubts as to his authenticity. I hope the family is on the up-and-up.

[Veganforlife]

Wow, you guys are really kind. I think it's nothing short of absurd that someone would give advice on healthy food intake when they are overweight themselves. If my dentist told me to brush, floss and avoid sugary foods, then had yellow teeth and a few cavities, I'd surely find another dentist no matter how great his advice was. There's obviously something going on with Victoria that needs to be addressed. So it would probably be best if she did so first, then came back to speaking. I'm sure this is her job, though, and she needs the income, but I'm bumbed out for sure to hear of her extra weight as her husband, Igor, is one of my reasons for starting raw to begin with. He said he kicked hyperthyroid and I'd love to be able to do that too! Now I have doubts as to his authenticity. I hope the family is on the up-and-up.

Oh puleeze! Read her book. She has helped thousands of folks! Don't judge the cover. She has done years and years of research and has documented this and PROVEN about the benefits of green smoothies.

[NetKaPet]

Veganforlife, YOU are the one that got me going on green smoothies. They are wonderful indeed! But I think if someone is making their living off of what they believe in, then they should themselves look the part. As a for instance, Serena Williams wins major tennis tournaments with (at times) significant extra weight on her because she is a brilliant athlete, not because she is fit. I'm sure Victoria is brilliant.

[lafsalot]

Oh puleeze! Read her book. She has helped thousands of folks! Don't judge the cover. She has done years and years of research and has documented this and PROVEN about the benefits of green smoothies.

Ditto!!!!!!!!!!!!! You know, I have a history of arrhythmias and edema (as does Victoria), and will on ocassion retain salt and water retention due in part to my body's attempt to maintain normal arterial pressure. Kudos to her for all the work she has done, and still continues to do. Just wish people would start focusing on getting fit, rather than obsessing about being thin - isn't that real goal of us all?! ~ Cathy

[Veganforlife]

Veganforlife, YOU are the one that got me going on green smoothies. They are wonderful indeed! But I think if someone is making their living off of what they believe in, then they should themselves look the part. As a for instance, Serena Williams wins major tennis tournaments with (at times) significant extra weight on her because she is a brilliant athlete, not because she is fit. I'm sure Victoria is brilliant.

Well then, why the previous statement? I am not one to EVER judge someone's looks. She looks Russian to me. A healthy, big, Russian woman.
BTW - glad you're doing the GS thing...:D

[britaniefaith]

No offense taken, but there are some loaded comments in this thread! Ack! Just the nature of weight discussions! :rolleyes:



Please, please reconsider thinking this way. I mostly eat salad and I'm still overweight. I would be pretty offended if someone said I must not really be eating all raw or eating just salad and still be overweight.


I don't think it is right to question whether someone is truely raw just b/c they are overweight still! THAT is exactly why I don't like talking about being raw with people. I figure they won't believe me b/c I'm still overweight after all these years. Luckily, I'm healthy looking and muscular, so I hold my weight well, but I'm certainly not skinny at 195 pounds.

Someone mentioned calories...I agree, but I also agree that EACH PERSON can take in a different amount, depending on their body. I've tracked my calories and I cannot lose weight unless I stick around 600-800 calories a day. I'm miserable that way, so I choose not to starve and eat that way.

Britneyfaith~ I don't eat many nuts or dehydrated foods. IF I eat them, I won't gain, but I cannot lose while eating them. I go through periods where I'll have some chocolate balls (cashews, dates & cacao) but other than that, my dehydrator has been in the closet since Christmas. ;)

There are MANY raw foodists that can lose eating nuts, recipes, etc. though, so I stick to my guns on this one-each person's body is different and can burn different stuff. My downfall is avocado's. I use them for my dressing on my salad, which is the majority of what I eat. I'm a salad-girl and love my greens. I usually have 1 avo on my salad, twice a day. Now, I know many people would/have still lost eating this way, but I just can't. I only lose if I skip breakfast, have a tiny salad with no avo and maybe 1-2 pieces of fruit a day...I don't want to live that way though. Sometimes I go through spurts where I will work hard to lose by eating like that, but I end up going back to loving my raw food, enjoying, and not starving.

I hope that I didn't offend you -- and I can see how that would get frustrating having people think you are eating more than you are but I'm just saying the first thing that comes to mind when hearing that Victoria is overweight after she claims to be eating mostly green smoothies, it makes me a bit hesistant to believe so. I would never judge someone and say that I KNOW that's the case, I'm just stating my opinion and how I feel when hearing that.

[shine72]

Wow, you guys are really kind. I think it's nothing short of absurd that someone would give advice on healthy food intake when they are overweight themselves. If my dentist told me to brush, floss and avoid sugary foods, then had yellow teeth and a few cavities, I'd surely find another dentist no matter how great his advice was. There's obviously something going on with Victoria that needs to be addressed. So it would probably be best if she did so first, then came back to speaking. I'm sure this is her job, though, and she needs the income, but I'm bumbed out for sure to hear of her extra weight as her husband, Igor, is one of my reasons for starting raw to begin with. He said he kicked hyperthyroid and I'd love to be able to do that too! Now I have doubts as to his authenticity. I hope the family is on the up-and-up.


Actually, this post is absurd. I started out raw with 100+ pounds to lose. I am still considered overweight, but have lost 64 pounds. I have been talking to people about raw since the beginning. No one has looked at me like I had no business talking that way! Most are amazed once they hear my story. The ones that actually get to see the before pics are stunned! So, there's nothing absurd about talking to others about raw (or teaching them about it, which I do) even if you're not at the typical "ideal". If you came to one of my classes, heard my story, and then we went into everything for the class, you would find me VERY far from absurd. In fact, you'd find me to be QUITE inspirational indeed!

[Revvell]

O.k, ya'll need to look at her before and after pics in her books. Yes, she did eliminate a lot of weight and her whole family was brought to a level of health they never thought possible. Igor, last time I saw him, looks GREAT! Her children are both healthy! How about focusing on the good they've done there? Oh!! no!!! Let's focus on fat Victoria! *shakes head sadly*

In my interview with her she said she is a RESEARCHER!!! What does that mean? It means she SITS! In the pics where she shows herself at optimum weight it was because she and her family were hiking and basically living off the land. Since then, she's done an amazing amount of research, writing, traveling and speaking.

I for one can tell you how easy it is to gain weight when going from being an outdoor, active person to being indoors, writing, traveling, researching, reading, and SITTING!

As Alissa constantly says, it's not just about the food. Yes, many will eliminate quite a bit of excess weight on a raw food program yet it will not stay gone if other components, such as movement and mindset are not examined and acted on.

Revvellicious

[Veganforlife]

Well said. Thank you for posting that.

[NetKaPet]

Vegan-I don't feel I'm judging Victoria's looks. She is a speaker, correct? Espousing the benefits of raw food? Wouldn't the top benefit be fitness? I know there are wonderful aspects of this diet other than weight loss. My hair is sparkling, my energy much higher. But if I don't eventually take off some weight, I will figure I'm doing something wrong. And I would want a raw-food-coach to help. And it would be difficult to look to Victoria when she has extra weight on her. It wouldn't make good sense to me to do so. So there's where my doubts lie.

[Veganforlife]

There are many factors that lie in why we all aren't Paris Hilton look-a-like (bodies) - ugh - who would wanna be like THAT anyway?
I truly believe heritage/ancestry plays a HUGE factor in our body shapes. Our jobs. Our blood type. Our lack of movement, etc. It all adds up. Like Revvell said, she is not moving like she used to.
She is my mentor and Angel sent to me. She has literally saved my life - her and Alissa. I never once thought, "Whoa. She's heavy."

And NO, the top benefit is NOT fitness. It's health. HEALTH. Living.

[shine72]

There are many factors that lie in why we all aren't Paris Hilton look-a-like (bodies) - ugh - who would wanna be like THAT anyway?
I truly believe heritage/ancestry plays a HUGE factor in our body shapes. Our jobs. Our blood type. Our lack of movement, etc. It all adds up. Like Revvell said, she is not moving like she used to.
She is my mentor and Angel sent to me. She has literally saved my life - her and Alissa. I never once thought, "Whoa. She's heavy."

And NO, the top benefit is NOT fitness. It's health. HEALTH. Living.

Exactly!:D (Color added by me!)

[NetKaPet]

Actually, this post is absurd. I started out raw with 100+ pounds to lose. I am still considered overweight, but have lost 64 pounds. I have been talking to people about raw since the beginning. No one has looked at me like I had no business talking that way! Most are amazed once they hear my story. The ones that actually get to see the before pics are stunned! So, there's nothing absurd about talking to others about raw (or teaching them about it, which I do) even if you're not at the typical "ideal". If you came to one of my classes, heard my story, and then we went into everything for the class, you would find me VERY far from absurd. In fact, you'd find me to be QUITE inspirational indeed!

I do not believe my post was absurd. How much do you charge people for your knowledge? Probably quite a bit less than Victoria does. This is her life and livelihood. People look to her ... they want her to be a great example of her words. I was just suggesting that she not speak until she figures out (and carries out) why she is carrying extra weight on the raw food plan. Then she will have even greater knowledge for the people that want to change their lives for the better. I've got nothing against Victoria. I do not even know her. But I do believe in truth in advertising. Doesn't anyone agree with that? Or is raw food such a positive, that extra pounds on it are just fine?

[Revvell]

Actually, I think the fact that the research she's doing, the thousands of lives she's saved through her books and research gives her every right to speak as she does.

[Revvell]

I was just suggesting that she not speak until she figures out (and carries out) why she is carrying extra weight on the raw food plan.

I guess you ignored my post about her being a researcher and that she is not moving much? It's NOT just about the "raw food plan".

Revvellicious

[Veganforlife]

I do not believe my post was absurd. How much do you charge people for your knowledge? Probably quite a bit less than Victoria does. This is her life and livelihood. People look to her ... they want her to be a great example of her words. I was just suggesting that she not speak until she figures out (and carries out) why she is carrying extra weight on the raw food plan. Then she will have even greater knowledge for the people that want to change their lives for the better. I've got nothing against Victoria. I do not even know her. But I do believe in truth in advertising. Doesn't anyone agree with that? Or is raw food such a positive, that extra pounds on it are just fine?

How much do you charge people for your knowledge? - nothing - self satisfaction that I can share this with others.

I was just suggesting that she not speak until she figures out (and carries out) why she is carrying extra weight on the raw food plan. - and then how will this help others?

But I do believe in truth in advertising. Doesn't anyone agree with that? - Yes and that's what Victoria promotes. HEALTH.

Or is raw food such a positive, that extra pounds on it are just fine? - Yep, in my world it's fine. The fact that I am healthy after 53 years of devastating illnesses - migraines my entire life - thyroid condition the last 6 - if it meant me being heavy and healthy - yes, by all means...

[Blossom]

I used to exercise a lot while eating cooked and was about 21 lb heavier then than I am now raw. I have not done any exercise since going raw as I am so thin I am scared I will lose even more.

[NetKaPet]

Well, Vegan, I can tell I'm not phrasing myself correctly because I never once inferred I wanted to look like Paris Hilton. She doesn't look very healthy to me. And I've always thought that healthy and fit go hand-in-hand. What separates them? Argh, someone has to be thinking along the same lines as me. Someone???

[Ariannah]

It's frustrating b/c I eat better than ANYONE I know and yet, I'm still a pleasant size 14 (I've realized I'll never be skinny). I'm also tall and have been overweight the majority of my life and up to 260 at one point, so I don't feel *fat*, I'm ok with who I am.

BUT, it's VERY frustrating to tell people about my raw lifestyle. VERY. I am embarrased to tell them all the health benefits, etc. for fear that they will look at me and think "yeah, right, then why is she still overweight?"


I'll tell ya, that's one of the main things that got me off raw. I couldn't speak up very much about it for the same reasons. When there are these buff size 8's around me, and I'm eating salads and fruits, and they're going for the full course steak dinners, I don't really think I have a lot of credibility.

Part of me thought, "Weight Schmeight" (I never made it past the size 14s) "I feel so good!" But the other part of me was embarrassed that I couldn't speak with confidence about it.

I have many health reasons to go raw now, weight or no weight.

[shine72]

Being certified through Alissa, I charge the prices listed on her website for the Level 1 and Level 2 classes. For my specialty classes, I charge whatever I want. It's already been stated that she's not exercising as much as she used to. There is truth in her advertising. Have you ever been a researcher? Do you know the hours upon hours upon hours that go into it? The lack of sleep, the stress of trying to meet deadlines, self-imposed or otherwise? I do. And I was VERY active then. I was a soldier in the Army for crying out loud. Do you know that when I was heavy into the researching, is when I kept on the most weight (before being as heavy as I am now)?! And that was with running and strength training, and marching with a thirty pound rucksack and carrying an M-16 on occassion too! It's NOT all about the food! It's NOT. And yes, you can be raw and be healthy AND have extra weight! I am raw. I am the healthiest I've been my whole life! And I STILL have weight to lose! Oh MY Gosh! I guess I should just shut up and not share the benefits of raw with other?! NOPE! Sorry, I refuse to do it that way. There are TOO many people out there who would be losing out on the benefits of my knowledge if I did it that way. What part of that is so hard to understand?:confused:

[NetKaPet]

Oh, I'm just making you guys angry. I'm sorry. That was not my intent.

[Mialsse]

I've never seen (in person nor in pictures) Victoria, so I don't have an opinion on her appearance. However, I want to point out something about this thread that struck me as "odd". It's been said, repeatedly, that weight shouldn't be an issue. It's been argued that we shouldn't judge Victoria based on her weight, every body is different, right? So then why is it ok to judge someone like Paris Hilton (since she was the example in this thread) based on her weight? Seems like quite a double standard to me, no?

[Stina]

Victoria's been sent from heaven to give us info on the benefits of the raw food diet, not how to get skinny. She's not a personal trainer from the gym.

Now, I'm probably 135-140 pounds and eating strictly raw at five foot four. That's not considered fashionably slim.

And I'm free of social pressure to conform to any perceived weight. I have no goal weight, I'm proud to say.

You know what I do with my pot belly? I get it out and jiggle it around with belly dancing!



p.s. I just read her latest book: 12 Steps to Raw. She doesn't claim to eat just green smoothies; she's got a well-rounded raw diet. She likes to eat, just like me. And NetKaPet, I hope we don't make you feel defensive, I see your point, I just see the bigger picture surrounding it. Love, Stina

[shine72]

I'm not angry, just perplexed. I DO know what you are saying about exercise and being healthy. But let me put it to you this way. Would you rather she exercised and was slim, and never did the research to put out Green For Life or any of the other new books which are benefiting SO many people? Think about it. She is ONLY ONE person. She can't DO and BE it all! No one can. That's why my exercising is not where I would like it to be. I have irons in the fires (so to speak) that could benefit SO many families. So my personal goal of fitness has been moved a bit to the wayside (intermittent here and there). That is a sacrifice I'm willing to make. Apparently it's a sacrifice Victoria is willing to make right now too. Shouldn't we be grateful for that sacrifice instead of picking apart her weight? That's what I'm trying to convey.

[Stina]

Being certified through Alissa, I charge the prices listed on her website for the Level 1 and Level 2 classes. For my specialty classes, I charge whatever I want. It's already been stated that she's not exercising as much as she used to. There is truth in her advertising. Have you ever been a researcher? Do you know the hours upon hours upon hours that go into it? The lack of sleep, the stress of trying to meet deadlines, self-imposed or otherwise? I do. And I was VERY active then. I was a soldier in the Army for crying out loud. Do you know that when I was heavy into the researching, is when I kept on the most weight (before being as heavy as I am now)?! And that was with running and strength training, and marching with a thirty pound rucksack and carrying an M-16 on occassion too! It's NOT all about the food! It's NOT. And yes, you can be raw and be healthy AND have extra weight! I am raw. I am the healthiest I've been my whole life! And I STILL have weight to lose! Oh MY Gosh! I guess I should just shut up and not share the benefits of raw with other?! NOPE! Sorry, I refuse to do it that way. There are TOO many people out there who would be losing out on the benefits of my knowledge if I did it that way. What part of that is so hard to understand?:confused:



Wow, you bad A*s! I like your spirit!:p

[Veganforlife]

Oh, I'm just making you guys angry. I'm sorry. That was not my intent.

No, not angry by any means. It takes a lot more then that to anger me. But so many are fooled into thinking one has to LOOK healthy to BE healthy. So not true. Granted a lot of us will get the "glow" and our skin will become prettier, hair, nails, eyes, weight will be eliminated, but for some that's not always the case. If you look at Victoria prior to going raw and now - she IS healthier.
We are so conditioned by the media, by our peers, by so many factors that we must look this way or that way. When I listen to VB, I "hear" her, I don't look at her judgementally. The main thing is that she DOES practice what she preaches. She is living proof that one can HEAL themselves by consuming more greens via green smoothies.
Have you contacted her yourself? E-mail her and ask her. She may share that w/you. I'm not being silly, I'm being for real. If this is something that is a concern to you and I do (to a point) understand where you're coming from, then question her directly. If there is an issue and I'd bet a body part she's not as active as before that's what her issue is, but she may be glad to share it.
So...apology accept, but it wasn't necessary to apologize...

[Rawkinlocs]

I've never seen (in person nor in pictures) Victoria, so I don't have an opinion on her appearance. However, I want to point out something about this thread that struck me as "odd". It's been said, repeatedly, that weight shouldn't be an issue. It's been argued that we shouldn't judge Victoria based on her weight, every body is different, right? So then why is it ok to judge someone like Paris Hilton (since she was the example in this thread) based on her weight? Seems like quite a double standard to me, no?

You're right Mialsse...thank you for pointing that out. We really should be mindful when trying to make a point about one thing not to come off attacking the opposite of what it is we are trying to defend. There ARE some raw fooders and aspiring raw fooders who are afraid of becoming too thin and comments such as, "Who'd wanna look like Paris Hilton" can make THEM feel offended just as a lot of the comments here are offending those who look mor like Victoria as far as weight is concerned.

So, let's not down-talk thin folk in order to make not-so-thin folk feel better and vice versa.

[Veganforlife]

A big shout out to Paris - sorry!!!

[shine72]

Wow, you bad A*s! I like your spirit!:p

Thanks!;) :D But I wasn't trying to be bad a*s!:o

[Ariannah]

Being certified through Alissa, I charge the prices listed on her website for the Level 1 and Level 2 classes. For my specialty classes, I charge whatever I want. It's already been stated that she's not exercising as much as she used to. There is truth in her advertising. Have you ever been a researcher? Do you know the hours upon hours upon hours that go into it? The lack of sleep, the stress of trying to meet deadlines, self-imposed or otherwise? I do. And I was VERY active then. I was a soldier in the Army for crying out loud. Do you know that when I was heavy into the researching, is when I kept on the most weight (before being as heavy as I am now)?! And that was with running and strength training, and marching with a thirty pound rucksack and carrying an M-16 on occassion too! It's NOT all about the food! It's NOT. And yes, you can be raw and be healthy AND have extra weight! I am raw. I am the healthiest I've been my whole life! And I STILL have weight to lose! Oh MY Gosh! I guess I should just shut up and not share the benefits of raw with other?! NOPE! Sorry, I refuse to do it that way. There are TOO many people out there who would be losing out on the benefits of my knowledge if I did it that way. What part of that is so hard to understand?:confused:
Um, I was mostly speaking about my experience... ok I was 100% speaking about MY experience. I am NOT certified, and not thin, either. Working on developing a backbone when thin people (some of them relatives who eat pretty decently by many people's standards) around me are rolling their eyes and suppressing out and out laughter, struggling to be polite... well, I'm happy there are people who can stand tall through it all. I only aspire to be like you someday :D

I'm getting better than that now. I suppose getting older I feel less inclined to let other people tell ME what to do. But I certainly hope my post did not imply that people who are heavy shouldn't be teaching!

[shine72]

Um, I was mostly speaking about my experience... ok I was 100% speaking about MY experience. I am NOT certified, and not thin, either. Working on developing a backbone when thin people (some of them relatives who eat pretty decently by many people's standards) around me are rolling their eyes and suppressing out and out laughter, struggling to be polite... well, I'm happy there are people who can stand tall through it all. I only aspire to be like you someday :D

I'm getting better than that now. I suppose getting older I feel less inclined to let other people tell ME what to do. But I certainly hope my post did not imply that people who are heavy shouldn't be teaching!

Ariannah, honey, I wasn't responding to you!:eek: That was in response to the question posted to me by NetKaPet!:o Sorry you thought it meant you, it didn't. And no, your post did NOT imply that at all. :D

[NetKaPet]

I'm not angry, just perplexed. I DO know what you are saying about exercise and being healthy. But let me put it to you this way. Would you rather she exercised and was slim, and never did the research to put out Green For Life or any of the other new books which are benefiting SO many people? Think about it. She is ONLY ONE person. She can't DO and BE it all! No one can. That's why my exercising is not where I would like it to be. I have irons in the fires (so to speak) that could benefit SO many families. So my personal goal of fitness has been moved a bit to the wayside (intermittent here and there). That is a sacrifice I'm willing to make. Apparently it's a sacrifice Victoria is willing to make right now too. Shouldn't we be grateful for that sacrifice instead of picking apart her weight? That's what I'm trying to convey.

Well, thanks for being perplexed and not angry. Maybe Victoria, with all her endeavors to help others, has forgotten herself in the mix. I still, however, feel she should collect an income on this only when she herself is at optimum. It's just the way I become inspired. To see others live their dreams out fully. And you know, it's quite possible that I just don't understand the raw diet dream. At least, not Victoria's.

[Stina]

Ha ha! We're arguing about Paris Hilton on the board again! ha ha :p :D

[shine72]

Well, thanks for being perplexed and not angry. Maybe Victoria, with all her endeavors to help others, has forgotten herself in the mix. I still, however, feel she should collect an income on this only when she herself is at optimum. It's just the way I become inspired. To see others live their dreams out fully. And you know, it's quite possible that I just don't understand the raw diet dream.

NetKaPet - Can I ask you a couple of questions? How long have you been raw? And also, what brought you to raw. The reason I ask, is because of your statement that I highlighted. Maybe you don't get it yet. And that's okay too. But I would ask, that you PLEASE not put down what others are doing who DO get it. KWIM? :D

[Revvell]

Oh, I'm just making you guys angry.

You don't have that power.... and neither does anyone else... unless we give it to them. Just as you don't have the power to tell someone how they "should" look before speaking on their chosen subject; just as you don't have the power to control what ANYone other than yourself does.

If people wait until they are perfect before they share their knowledge, insights and experiences, it would be a sad world indeed.

Revvellicious

[Rawkinlocs]

:::wondering how much longer this thread needs to go on:::

Wow, yet another good ole thread dedicated to Victoria Boutenko's weight eh?

The way I see it, it seems that people who are in the "spot light" cannot win for losing. If Victoria were not a thicker woman, there would be something else she'd be faulted for. I've seen people say that they are "scared" to go raw because they do not want to have that "emaciated look that they've seen in many raw fooders". I was one of them. I had seen photos of raw fooders when I first began and I thought to myself, "Gee, I surely don't want to end up looking like THAT!"

There are raw food leaders who fit the image for various people depending on who they are...if she doesn't fit yours, then don't listen to her, read her books or go see her speak...stick with those who DO fit your ideal. There are some people, some women out there who have tried everything in the book and have settled in their minds and in their being that they will NEVER be thin and to them, Victoria would be the ideal role model. There are some who live to be thin and look like a model...to them, their ideal raw role model may be someone like Nora of Rawschool.com or Carol Alt. But the bottom line is, it's no one's place to say who should and should not teach and speak about raw foods because they're meatier than you'd like them to be. Again, the advice she's given has helped so many people and isn't THAT what really matters? I mean, she could be stick-thin and touting lies and untruths that people try and it not work...THAT would be wrong. But if what she says is helping people...people who otherwise would not be helped...people who otherwise would still be sick and dying or still suffering, then to me, that gives her every right in the world to stand before the public and speak confidently and boldly.

Also, aside from weight, some folks shy away from raw due to not wanting to be labeled or to actual become a "hippy-type" so they may not want to listen to someone like David Wolfe but would look for a different type of role model.

But back to the weight thing, Victoria very well may be a thicker, stockier woman however, when I look at her, she looks healthy from the inside...the radiance and glow that shines through her. How many people follow the advice of Dr. Andrew Weil? Some don't, but a LOT do! If Victoria were "selling" weight loss or fitness as in if she were a fitness/exercise coach, then yeah, I could see all the hooplah. But she is promoting health from within and if she, through raw food, healed herself of the irregular heart beat, her daughter from asthma, her son from diabetes and her husband from hyperthyroidism (which hits home for ME as that is what my husband had) as well as the hundreds of thousands of folks she's touched and reached through her talks, books, interviews, etc. - then heavy or not, she's alright in my book and probably healthier inwardly (where it really counts) than most of us...I'd listen to her any day!

[Revvell]

... feel she should collect an income on this only when she herself is at optimum. It's just the way I become inspired. To see others live their dreams out fully. And you know, it's quite possible that I just don't understand the raw diet dream. At least, not Victoria's.

... yes, and you should be perfect before you do whatever it is you do. Does that work for you? Are you a mother? Did you have a lot of experience before being a mother? Are you a great example to your children? Inspiring? They see how perfect you are?

Any job you take... are you perfect at it? Have you ever taught anybody anything without being a perfect example before you opened your mouth? Before you taught? Before you wrote? before you did anything?

I'm out of here.

[SmilingRawDancer]

How many people follow the advice of Dr. Andrew Weil?

OMG My mom and I talk about that ALL the time! We say "He should be following his own advice...."......but then we change our mind and say he should be following ALISSA's advice ;)

[NetKaPet]

I think I'd rather talk about Paris Hilton. Then we might all be in agreement.

But I'm not putting ANY of you down. I just made a green smoothie and darn near saw Vegan's image in the blender. Possibly you are reading something else into what I'm saying. I just don't like seeing people making their livings who are the top-of-the-line in any particular venue when they themselves don't completely look like they are following their own information. And I feel they owe it to their followers (the people that support them) to follow through. That many of you don't care that she has gained weight and is a promoter of raw foods is fine for you. It's just not fine for me. I see it as confusing.

[Veganforlife]

I think I'd rather talk about Paris Hilton. Then we might all be in agreement.

But I'm not putting ANY of you down. I just made a green smoothie and darn near saw Vegan's image in the blender. Possibly you are reading something else into what I'm saying. I just don't like seeing people making their livings who are the top-of-the-line in any particular venue when they themselves don't completely look like they are following their own information. And I feel they owe it to their followers (the people that support them) to follow through. That many of you don't care that she has gained weight and is a promoter of raw foods is fine for you. It's just not fine for me. I see it as confusing.

One thing we all agree on is disagreement here. I'm out of this thread because you all know how I feel. I know how you feel NetKaPet and we're all entitled to feel as we do.

Too funny! Tell me though - did that Green Smoothie make my butt look fat?

[mikeshafer]

I'm glad someone else brought this up. I don't like to refer people to Victoria Boutenko as an ideal raw vegan since she's clearly overweight. The raw food movement needs a hot chick showing off her glowing skin and happiness. Two examples come to mind:

Carol Alt
Lesle Bega

[barose]

And NO, the top benefit is NOT fitness. It's health. HEALTH. Living.

But fitness is a part of health.

[raven]

Veganforlife, YOU are the one that got me going on green smoothies. They are wonderful indeed! But I think if someone is making their living off of what they believe in, then they should themselves look the part. As a for instance, Serena Williams wins major tennis tournaments with (at times) significant extra weight on her because she is a brilliant athlete, not because she is fit. I'm sure Victoria is brilliant.

I agree about looking the part. Regarding Serena Williams, she may not be tiny but she's muscular and incredibly fit. She could never win tournaments if she weren't, or even be competing on a professional level. I've been to the U.S. Open, and I can tell you that the camera does add pounds. I saw Venus Williams and she looks much larger on camera than she actually is.

I think it's perfectly fair to question Victoria's weight. I have to say that after hearing her on the Raw Summit teleconference last week I really like her. She seems loving, sincere and very knowledgeable. When we're talking about weight, we're not only talking about appearance and conforming to the unrealistic magazine images of models and celebrities but we're talking about health. Toxins are stored in fat and overweight is an acidic condition. I never met Victoria and don't know why she's battling excess weight. I don't know that it's genetics. I met Tonya Zavasta who is slim and radiates health and vitality. She was heavy before going raw.

If I'm going to take someone's advice, I have to consider their appearance, although there may be other factors.

Suzy

[Mialsse]

I can see where you're coming from NetKaPet. While I don't have an opinion on Victoria, because I haven't seen her, I can see your point of view. I'm trying to put it into a situation where I can relate. If I go to a Dr (not often at all, but there have been times), I *need* to see someone who is at their optimal health level. If I walk into a Drs office and see an overweight, or pale, or pleghm hacking, etc person ... I'm really not interested in what they have to say. That may be judgemental of me, but if I'm seeking HEALTH advice, from a health professional, that person needs to show me that health is of the utmost importance to them. Allowing themselves to be unhealthy just doesn't cut it with me. I've excused myself once (with a short and polite "I don't think you can help me, but thank you", shook him hand, and walked out) when the Dr came into the room smelling like ciggarette smoke. Not because I wanted to be rude or insulting, but because it would have been a waste of both of our times. He may have been filled with great advice, but my opinion was already skewed, so I wouldn't have really "heard" it, you know? I would have had doubts. I know that may not sound "kosher", but it's a reality for me.

But, like rawlinlocs was saying, just because that isn't my "type" of Dr, that doesn't mean there isn't a place for him in that profession. Others may feel more comfortable or open to someone like him, someone who may reflect characterics that they have in themselves. For instance, the yellow-toothed dentist you described. I, like you, wouldn't want to see him ... but others might. Other people who have neglected their teeth for many many years may see him as inspiration. Kind of like ... no matter how long you have abused them, or how bad they are, it's NEVER to late to start taking care of your teeth.

While Victoria may not be your ideal of raw foodism, she absolutely has a place in the movement. There is no doubt that she has helped SO many people better their lives from the inside out, so there are obviously people that DO see her as the ideal, and have confidence in what she talks about.

[Carol K]

When no weight was coming off, I stopped nuts and fruits. I juice veggies in the morning - greens, celery and some carrots with ginger. I do not eat nuts or fruits. Low consumption of oil just on salads. So, yes, that is why I have been frustrated. I firmly believe it depends on a person's body makeup. I am of Polish decent and small build. Detoxing and raw has not eliminated excess fat -yet. I have been raw since Feb 2007.

[rawmom2006]

I feel the same way she does and I also understand where others are coming from. I know weight is a touchy issue with people. When people are looking for help in whatever issue they are having they usually look for people who they feel look and act like in a way they want to be. Everyone has their own standards of what that is.

[Veganforlife]

Everyone meet Victoria. Victoria meet everyone.

[garden granny]

In that picture she looks healthy and not overweight. What's wrong with that. I thinks she looks great.

[Rawkinlocs]

Everyone meet Victoria. Victoria meet everyone.

Very nice to make your acquaintance Victoria! :)

Ya know, she really isn't all that big especially knowing the size she came from back before she went raw. Have you all seen her before photos? She's waaaaay smaller than she used to be before going raw! The way it's been expressed, you'd think she looked like the woman in "What's Eating Gilbert Grape" or something. It's mainly her midriff area and that seems to indicate perhaps a lack of abdominal exercising; but I don't want to speculate as I don't live with her. But looking at her face, neck, arms, she's not as huge as she's been made out to be. She just has a large frame...you can see it in her bone structure. Not everyone is going to or meant to look like Carol Alt or Leslie Baga (Mike). The woman has made some remarkable...RE-MARK-A-BLE discoveries and contributions to the raw food movement. Why is that not good or acceptable enough?!

But AGAIN...if Victoria does not fit your ideal, then there are other folks to listen to/buy books from. I'm giving this thread until it reaches 10 pages so yall get your opinions expressed 'cause at 10 pages (which is the limit for most threads anyway), I'm closing it but NOT to have another one started up behind it...just a heads up!

[barose]

Those pictures are not recent. I just saw her last week and she looked much bigger and I was about 10-15 feet away.

[garden granny]

Those pictures are not recent. I just saw her last week and she looked much bigger and I was about 10-15 feet away.

How tall would you say she is, and about how much do you think she weighs now? Just curious.

[RawCutter]

I'm giving this thread until it reaches 10 pages so yall get your opinions expressed 'cause at 10 pages (which is the limit for most threads anyway), I'm closing it but NOT to have another one started up behind it...just a heads up!


what for? we have a lively discussion going on.

[Veganforlife]

MY last word on this is - um, well, looking at chimpanzees who Victoria studied, who's DNA is so similar to ours and she constructed the "diet" (if you will) that healed her and her family after what chimpanzees eat - more greens - Victoria's being green smoothies. Well, um, they aren't the most handsome creatures on this circle of life called Earth, but I'm trusting what Victoria researched and found sustains life for them, for her and her family and for me. I frankly don't care if she has polka-dotted purple skin with lime green stripes, weighs 5200 pounds, has no hair, no teeth, etc. All I know is this IS healing. Her years and years of research and time and effort spent doing what she has done and presented to me her findings has healed me and will continue to heal me.

HEALING

That's all that matters to me.
You all can battle this out, question how much she weighs, why she weighs what she does, looks like what she does all you all want.
Until I'm perfect, I will not not be critical anymore of anyone, the super thin folks included who I referenced to before. Who am I really to question?
As the words of Revvell - I'm outta here!
buh-bye.

[rawsurfer]

I've never seen (in person nor in pictures) Victoria, so I don't have an opinion on her appearance. However, I want to point out something about this thread that struck me as "odd". It's been said, repeatedly, that weight shouldn't be an issue. It's been argued that we shouldn't judge Victoria based on her weight, every body is different, right? So then why is it ok to judge someone like Paris Hilton (since she was the example in this thread) based on her weight? Seems like quite a double standard to me, no?

good point

[Zella Juice]

when I first went raw..I started getting bad headaches. I could have just stopped raw and said it didn't work for me. But I documented the headaches and discovered they were around the time of my period and then realized they were hormonal. My body was trying to tell me I needed to add something to my diet. So I added blended Dulse and they went away.

If Victoria is gaining weight..it is her body telling her she needs to add something to her diet to balance out her weight. Being the awesome person that she is...she will research what it is and figure it out. So then.....by the time we all have been raw for as long as she has, and some of us start putting on weight. We will read a book that she wrote about how she did tons of research and figured out how to lose the weight.

We are all just trying to learn how to stay healthy and happy. You either believe her and trust her or you don't. I personally do and always will. She is very thorough and her conclusions make sense.

I owe her SO much for making my life and my family's life WAY better.

[Rawkinlocs]

what for? we have a lively discussion going on.

...what truly would be the benefit of keeping it ongoing?

It's painfully obvious that it's just gonna be never-ending, back and forth, blah blah blah.

Also, in all truth and honesty, I personally don't find it fair at all to Victoria since she is not here to defend herself and that is what sticks foremost in the back of MY mind about this whole discussion surrounding her weight.

What's the benefit to any of the participants in this discussion to keep it going for too much longer? What productive results is it providing for any of us other than the "right" to say what's on our minds? Yeah, everyone pretty much got their say, got to express their views and opinions about the speculated reasons why Victoria gained weight and whether or not she is a good raw role model.

I think the BEST thing anyone could do and should do if they want to know why Victoria is the weight that she is as a raw fooder, is to write to her and ask her. Is anyone up for doing that? Does it seem rude to write and say, "Hi Victoria, I love your books and think you are a wealth of knowledge but I have one question...WHY are you so overweight?!" Nah...I'm just messin' around...it could be phrased with MUCH more tact than that! But I'm just saying, why not go straight to the source? Next time she's in town, go see her and when/if she allows question and answer time, ask her! ::shrugs::

Now granted, if one person writes her and asks, she may or may not write back...but I'm willing to bet that if enough people wrote her with their concerns about her appearance that she'd do something. Perhaps there is something going on that we're not aware of but again, we don't and cannot/should not speculate and assume. The only way to really know is to go to the source. We can sit here all day long and nit pick and try to figure out what the issue is or insist that she is not healthy or whatever and it's STILL not going to answer the OP's initial question and concern.

Barose, I can totally understand where you're coming from (along with others who expressed similar sentiments) in your original post and I'm not insinuating that you were wrong for asking the question in the least. You did mention that everything she talked about was spot on but looking at her, you had to wonder why she is the size that she is. I don't know the answer and no one here knows either...and that's the only point I'm trying to make now. We are all speculating and guessing and it's really not going anywhere other than feathers getting ruffled and panties and drawers getting in bunches.

So again, carry on everyone til we reach that magic number!

[rawsurfer]

not the topic of my post but dont you guys think that if you didnt know about all the really sleazy stuff paris hilton has done ( and who reallycares nobody is perfect) that you would see her as beautiful. to me she seems like a beautiful on the outside and questionable (dont know cuz i dont know her) on the inside type of person. if she were raw and on this forum you guys would be all "you are so beautiful"

rawkinlocs: dont shut the thread down there are some really great points and stuff that has every right to be addressed. that seems kinda control freakish to me.

now for my 2 cents:
you can be 100 percent raw and not be at optimum health. the so called "pure" raw food diet is to me where its at. the alissa cohen mantra is great and all, esp when first starting out, but it is very misleading when you think that you wont get tired after a meal or that you wont gain weight and you can eat whatever you want etc and then you eat whatever you want and you dont balance your diet and you end up lethargic and overweight... dont know vb, i love green smoothies, and i am thankful for her contribution. she could be lying, but i doubt it. maybe she eats a lot. i know when i research a lot i snack at the computer and eat more than i normally would. or maybe her body is doing some deep down detox and needs to store it first in fat. who knows. plus not all raw foods are good for you. there are weird toxins contained in stuff like flax, spinach, supposedly garlic, some say carrots and beets are bad, there are opiates in grains, etc. all i am saying is that to have truly optimum health one must look at all of these things, fast a couple times a year on juice or water (because we all know that we live in a very toxic world and raw or not we need to cleanse ourselves of those), excersise, and be happy. there are allergies, and things like ayurveda that one must also take into consideration. this takes a lot of time and energy which, if you are researching a lot like vb is, then you cant focus on as much. we just dont have enough time to do everythign we want.

and ps. to me she just looks like she snacks too much at the computer. no biggie really. plus who likes doing situps anyways. personally the amount of body fat i have is something i moniter and control, because i dont feel like it is healthy to have lots...

[Rawkinlocs]

rawkinlocs: dont shut the thread down there are some really great points and stuff that has every right to be addressed. that seems kinda control freakish to me.

LOL! Wow! Well, this brings back to my mind when a couple of people told me that I shouldn't explain my moderating decisions but just do it. Now I can see why that was told to me.

If THAT were true (the control-freak thing :rolleyes:), this thread probably would not have lasted THIS long. I'm not trying to be a control freak and the points HAVE been addressed...over and over, the same things are being said and reiterated. Long before you joined this forum, there was established that threads would be closed after 10 pages anyway so at least I am letting this go that long. In all actuality, I would be willing to bet that if Alissa were not tied up into what she's doing right now and had viewed the content of this thread, she would have probably closed it herself a long before now! I'm trying to grant some leeway here! Well, think of me as you please!


you can be 100 percent raw and not be at optimum health. the so called "pure" raw food diet is to me where its at. the alissa cohen mantra is great and all, esp when first starting out, but it is very misleading when you think that you wont get tired after a meal or that you wont gain weight and you can eat whatever you want etc and then you eat whatever you want and you dont balance your diet and you end up lethargic and overweight

Hmmm...well that surely hasn't been MY experience! I don't get tired after eating a raw meal, don't gain weight with them and I CAN eat whatever I want (and what I want isn't always heavy food and Alissa never said that eating what you want had to be all heavy food) and have an abundance of energy! I think you have missed what Alissa's "mantra" truly is, but that's a whole 'nother discussion in and of itself.

[barose]

RawSurfer - I dont think Alissa's way is misleading any more than "other" ways: 811, fruitarianism and so on. Not everyone can eat just fruit, no fat and thrive. I sure cant. I tried and failed big time. Not saying that was your point, but trying to give you the other side.

garden granny - I'm not good at guessing height, weight and so on. I could be DEAD WRONG, but my guess is that she is 5'5" - 5'6" which is closer to my height. I would say that she is a modern size 18-20. I could be wrong too. :) I'm not good at guessing weight because I'm about 156 pounds and a modern size 6/8 (36-28-38). Bones, muscle and build account for my high numbers on the scale.

[rawsurfer]

rawkinlocs i do understand alissa's mantra and its what kept me raw, and really she does go to say that we will eventually fine tune it and it wont be so recipe/nut heavy... i know for me eating too many fats will make me kinda tired. i dont get tired after anything else, but say i eat a bunch of unsoaked nuts or 2 or 3 avos i might get tired, or if i eat dehydrated food.

but i realy do think this is a good thread. i see where you are coming from of how it might hurt vb's feelings or that she is not here to defend herself, but the discussion is bringing up some quality issues about how the raw food diet has helped some lose weight, others not, and so on. it also gives comfort to those who have not lost the weight they want. also, there are some logical, well thought explanations/speculations that could explain why she has that weight, and could put some of the "dissenters" at ease. plus people have every right to question someone like vb who doesnt appear in some aspects to have the health benefits her diet is promoting. the opinion that we shouldnt ask these questions is similar to the one that says "dont question your government, your president, or mass media. believe and shut up, because they are right and how DARE you question what they have to say". needless to say this attitude is very dangerous.

but in any case its obvious that people wish to discuss it by the rate of growth this thread is experiencing. i understand where you are coming from regarding pre set rules and what not, but there are exceptions to the rule such as the juice bandits thread. also for all the people who do question vb they can check out this thread and possibly their perspective could be changed. who knows, there could be someone who has experienced the same thing as vb that has not had the time to go on rft yet. either way i am a free market kinda guy and i feel that regulating or stopping a discussion that people obviously want to have just isnt right.

and i know you are only doing your job. i dont think badly of you:)

[Bobbie]

I always noticed in photos that her daughter Valya looks really well built (in a good way). A lot of children raised on raw diets are below average height, and very thin. I first became raw aged 13 and became really thin in a bad way (lost muscle and bone not fat), and didn't grow properly. I became discouraged and believed that raw veganism was a bad idea for children/growing teens. Valya completely changed my mind about that. She looks so voluptuous and beautiful. She's "normal" height, and not thinly built. To me that meant that I was doing the raw diet all wrong, and whatever the raw family were eating, they had got it very right.

[exurb]

First of all, hail to Rawkinlocs, keeper of the forest for continuing to do her difficult job!

I haven't said a peep on this thread yet, and it looks like I'd better hurry up, I really don't want to see it shut down. So I hope we can behave ourselves and keep this discussion on a plane that is worthy of continuing.

I have had a weight problem most of my life, and I think Victoria is beautiful and I think the level of negative judgement me have on fat people is quite sad. She is a beautiful mother also, to be revered for many reasons.

HOWEVER, I think you walk into a minefield when you put yourself out there as someone with the answers who is essentially telling others how to eat, when you appear so far from having found the answers yourself. Seek first to understand then be understood. I look at Victoria, I say you have not found the answers yet, why are you putting yourself out there as a guru essentially telling others how they should eat?

I have lost 100 pounds and kept it off for ten years. I still battle with 20 pounds, I have a life so I don't obsess about those 20, but it is a constant effort to find ways to not gain back the other 100 and to lose the 20. While also valuing my health greatly, wanting to eat healthily.

In complete honesty, when I saw Victoria, it raised doubts about raw, and it made me doubt her as someone who can be telling others how to live their lives healthily. We have criticized the thin in this thread, but the research truly shows that what we might think of as a waif actually has more longevity and is generally healthier, not just as compared with a morbidly obese person, but also compared with what we believe to be a "normal" weight person in our current society. Whether we like it or not, thin is an indicator of longevity and health, and overweight is an indicator for numerous health complications.

We each need to find what works for us, but I think it truly is problematic to put yourself out there essentially telling others how they should eat, when you have clearly NOT found the answers yourself.

I have also seen Victoria to have gained weight in these past years. If someone that weight say 220 was putting themselves out there as a leader and a teacher for how to eat, I would really listen to them and they would be my guru if they used to weigh 600 and have maintained 220. But to see someone at 220 that used to weigh 175, I'd say they haven't found the answers, and they're preaching without truly having found the knowledge.

They might still be gorgeous, beautiful, a good person, generous, etc., but they have not found the answers.

[rawsurfer]

yes thank you exurb. well put

[Bobbie]

Re weight and health, Aojanus Vonderplanitz believes being "overweight" on a raw diet, is healthier because the fat absorbs the toxins. More toxins you're exposed to, the more fat you need, otherwise they travel round your bloodstream damaging all your cells.
Maybe with travelling around, Victoria has been exposed to more toxins from air pollution etc, and her body which is used to a healthy environment, has reacted by storing some more fat to hold them.
I felt dreadful at first on a raw diet, so poisoned and toxic, until I discovered avocados and put on a lot of fat in 2 weeks, and suddenly the poisoned feeling completely stopped, just like that. Fats power to protect from toxins shouldnt be under-estimated. Vonderplanitz has used it to save many people who had only days to live.

[rawsurfer]

very good point. thats why i think cleansing of some sort is necessary so that we can rid our bodies of the toxins before they really make themselves at home.

[Rawkinlocs]

Okay, okay...we'll see how it all pans out and go from there with regards to whether or not this thread gets closed. I'd LIKE to see it be productive, though.

Having said that, Exurb (thanks, btw and thank you too Rawsurfer) I think you made some valid points regarding the risks one takes when they put themselves out there. But...okay, it appears that it was years from the time Victoria and her family first went raw to the time she wrote her first book (what WAS her first book anyway? Was it 12 Steps to Raw?). At that time, she had a lot of the same info that others offer but I feel that SHE felt that she "had something" or was on to something when she and her family had such health issues to reverse. But as she said in her recent Raw Summit interview, years went by and then all of a sudden...she and the family plateaued due to lack of greens and all that they provide, basically. And she did a wonderful job finding out all that she found out and then bringing it to us. What's so wrong with that? But she also mentioned that she spoke with various raw "gurus" asking them if they had plateaued and they said "YES" and were saying how for them, it occurred much sooner than it did with her/them and then she went on to say how she got all kinds of different "answers" such as, she should start eating raw animal products or she needs to start eating a small percentage of cooked foods, etc. and she was not satisfied with any of that. So, she's not the only "guru" who has experienced a plateau apparently from what she said.

Maybe SHE, herself, is not the "ideal" as far as weight goes, but look at her children! Look at her husband (at least I think he's still small...it's been several years since I saw them in MI)...so while something is going on within her own body...all else who follow her advice/suggestions for drinking green smoothies are getting/seeing results both in weight and in health so why should she not share this info and her findings with the world despite her having a larger frame?

According to her latest interviews and info, she is very much healthy and she also said in this recent Raw Summit interview that, yes, she had gained weight but that she was losing so.... ::shrugs::

[Rawkinlocs]

Re weight and health, Aojanus Vonderplanitz believes being "overweight" on a raw diet, is healthier because the fat absorbs the toxins. More toxins you're exposed to, the more fat you need, otherwise they travel round your bloodstream damaging all your cells.
Maybe with travelling around, Victoria has been exposed to more toxins from air pollution etc, and her body which is used to a healthy environment, has reacted by storing some more fat to hold them.
I felt dreadful at first on a raw diet, so poisoned and toxic, until I discovered avocados and put on a lot of fat in 2 weeks, and suddenly the poisoned feeling completely stopped, just like that. Fats power to protect from toxins shouldnt be under-estimated. Vonderplanitz has used it to save many people who had only days to live.

Yes, that is something to ponder and in fact, just the other day I was thinking about a similar thing. I thought to myself that, when a part of the body is injured, in order to protect/cushion itself, swelling occurs. We always equate and have always been taught that swelling is a bad thing...do all possible to reduce the swelling when in fact, it's a natural defense mechanism for one's body. Now, if Victoria or anyone else in a similar situation with their weight, is eating the BEST possible way (I mean, how can consuming all those greens and minimal fat be unhealthy?) then it stands to reason that whatever the excess weight on her is, it's not the same type of excess weight as someone eating standard cooked food/junk food type of diet.

OH...and I was wrecking my BRAIN trying to remember the reason Victoria gave for her weight gain in this most recent Raw Summit interview as I knew she had mentioned something. If I recall correctly (and anyone who listened correct me if I'm wrong) she said something about all the traveling and not getting rest and her body reacted by gaining weight...something to that effect if my memory serves me. But again, I'm sure she may address this if enough people who REALLY wanted to know what the deal is wrote and asked her. Maybe she'd put it in one of her upcoming newsletters!

[EastCoastie]

I am saddened by so much of what is written in this thread. It seems critical and unproductive. Is there really a need to say everything that comes to our mind, especially when it isn't edifying to someone else.

Here's my story...I have not been a great success on the raw diet. However, I still keep at it and still continue to tout some of it's benefits, especially the benefits of green smoothies. At present, I can think of at least two dozen people that my husband and I have introduced to green smoothies. (Being a former military officer, my husband has great discipline and he has done consistently well on raw food.) Anyway, more than 1/2 of those people do not eat any type of greens on a regular basis. Against that backdrop, it is priceless for me to hear a comment like "I hate to admit it but I really love my green smoothies". My heart is warmed by the fact that there are now three children who wouldn't eat greens under any circumstances who now love green smoothies. Even this past weekend, one of our friends who is thin but a junk food eater was telling me how much more energy he has and that he has no interest in drinking coffee on the days he has a green smoothie. He also told me that he's been telling people he works with about them.

Despite the fact that I have not done great living out the raw food lifestyle I have made positive changes in my life and through the message of green smoothies I have helped others improve their health too. So with that said I have to agree with what Lucy (VFL) and Revvell. If we wait for people to be perfect before they can speak, than we lose. I for one don't think I should judge a book by it's cover because when I have done that, I have tended to miss out. If I am open, I am often surprised to learn something I didn't expect from someone I wouldn't have expected to.

SHALOM!

EC

[Rawkinlocs]

I am saddened by so much of what is written in this thread. It seems critical and unproductive. Is there really a need to say everything that comes to our mind, especially when it isn't edifying to someone else.

Here's my story...I have not been a great success on the raw diet. However, I still keep at it and still continue to tout some of it's benefits, especially the benefits of green smoothies. At present, I can think of at least two dozen people that my husband and I have introduced to green smoothies. (Being a former military officer, my husband has great discipline and he has done consistently well on raw food.) Anyway, more than 1/2 of those people do not eat any type of greens on a regular basis. Against that backdrop, it is priceless for me to hear a comment like "I hate to admit it but I really love my green smoothies". My heart is warmed by the fact that there are now three children who wouldn't eat greens under any circumstances who now love green smoothies. Even this past weekend, one of our friends who is thin but a junk food eater was telling me how much more energy he has and that he has no interest in drinking coffee on the days he has a green smoothie. He also told me that he's been telling people he works with about them.

Despite the fact that I have not done great living out the raw food lifestyle I have made positive changes in my life and through the message of green smoothies I have helped others improve their health too. So with that said I have to agree with what Lucy (VFL) and Revvell. If we wait for people to be perfect before they can speak, than we lose. I for one don't think I should judge a book by it's cover because when I have done that, I have tended to miss out. If I am open, I am often surprised to learn something I didn't expect from someone I wouldn't have expected to.

SHALOM!

EC

Beautiful post EC!

[EastCoastie]

Thanks, Rawkie!

[exurb]

Thanks rawsurfer for your support. I was just putting on my flame-proof jumpsuit before checking back, so it was a pleasant surprise to see your post!

Thank you too Rawkinlocs for your further insight. About a year ago I recall Victoria acknowledging her weight and saying she had "begun" to lose it. So here we are a year later:o . And I would suggest it's not just "frame". You've pointed out that it's worked for others in her family, what does that say, that that way of eating is good for people who don't have a predisposition for a weight problem (her kids, husband) but not for people who do?

While she was "talking the talk," I was busy walking the walk, and took myself from a size 20-ish (as it's been said she is now) to a size 8-10, and I have similar "peasant genes" I'm sure, and a large "frame."

I really wish she would TRULY seek to find how she needs to eat to get rid of her significant weight issue, then she might REALLY have something to offer, especially to those of us who also struggle with a weight problem or pre-disposition for one.

[rawsurfer]

she very well could be doing that exurb.. never know.

[Rawkinlocs]

Thanks rawsurfer for your support. I was just putting on my flame-proof jumpsuit before checking back, so it was a pleasant surprise to see your post!

Thank you too Rawkinlocs for your further insight. About a year ago I recall Victoria acknowledging her weight and saying she had "begun" to lose it. So here we are a year later:o . And I would suggest it's not just "frame". You've pointed out that it's worked for others in her family, what does that say, that that way of eating is good for people who don't have a predisposition for a weight problem (her kids, husband) but not for people who do?

While she was "talking the talk," I was busy walking the walk, and took myself from a size 22-24 (as it's been said she is now) to a size 8-10, and I have similar "peasant genes" I'm sure, and a large "frame."

I really wish she would TRULY seek to find how she needs to eat to get rid of her significant weight issue, then she might REALLY have something to offer, especially to those of us who also struggle with a weight problem or pre-disposition for one.

Nope! Not saying that at all as I know there are many who do who have had results as well. What do YOU think it is with her, in particular? I mean, apparently there are even people here on this very forum who are facing similar situations. If the woman is eating raw and has cut way back on the amount of heavy food she used to eat and consuming all those greens, then what do you think it is in her case?

But I still stand by my feelings that, if what she is teaching has helped and is still helping so many, then it should be out there for them. Victoria is working out her own issues, I'm sure. It seems like this is going back to weight being the major factor. What's more important, having healing take place with an irregular heart beat or being thin? I believe Victoria does walk the walk because she lives the raw food lifestyle. I could see making that statement if she were eating cooked food and teaching raw foods and telling people what to eat...THAT would be her "not walking the walk and just talking the talk". Walking the walk means doing what you preach and she is doing that...she is eating the way that she is suggesting others eat...at least to the best of our knowledge. ::shrugs::

You also mentioned that a year or so ago you recall her mentioning her weight and saying she has begun to lose it...so because she mentioned it again in this recent interview you feel she is not telling the truth or something? Is that it, do yall think that she is not being truthful about her diet? I'm not saying it's not possible as I've heard stories about other raw "gurus" being seen eating cooked food and all. But, I don't know...I digress! I just still feel that we ALL (myself included) really need to stop speculating. I think I'm about done in here.

[Revvell]

If the woman is eating raw and has cut way back on the amount of heavy food she used to eat and consuming all those greens, then what do you think it is in her case?


She's not moving!!! Speaking from my own experience here. Don't move, doesn't much matter what one eats or how much. Gotta MOVE!

*looks around* Ohhhh! Did I fall into this thread again? Sheesh! :rolleyes:

*backs out with a sheepish grin*

[Veganforlife]

Oh, I'm back in - but just for a split-second. I happened to think of her age. AND it's possible this lovely thing us women get that change our bodies' shapes. It's called menopause. THAT could be playing a huge factor in her mid-section or all over weight gain. Her child-bearing years are finished, her body is once again transforming.

Okay, talk amongst yourselves.

With that said...

::grabs Revvell's hand and makes a bee-line for the door::

[EZ rider]

I have a theory and thats all it is because I have no facts to back it up. My theory is that there are two types of raw foodists. The 1st group is the "fresh raw" group. The 2nd group is the "processed raw" group. Now here's my theory: Its easier for the "fresh raw" group to lose weight then it is for the "processed raw" group to lose weight. Maybe Victoria is more in the 2nd group then in the first ?

[luckitri]

Well I for one hope she goes to an endocrinologist and gets checked for pituitary adenoma, adrenal adenoma and thyroid. 3 conditions that I am familiar with that can cause massive weight gain. Now if she has something like that she may be able to cure it with raw - I don't know. But like with her husbands condition - she knew what he had - then she cured it with raw. But she needs to rule out these things as well. I don't care what weight she carries - its her personal business. All I am interested in is her message.

Oh yeah, Netkapet, TRUST ME, talking about PH is bad news!

[freelive]

Well, I never met Victoria in person, but my friend went to her lecture and she said, that Victoria did not look healthy at all. She said that her breathing was like person's with serious heart problems.
But then again, maybe she just had a bad day-we all have them.

[exurb]

I don't care what weight she carries - its her personal business

I would normally share the same philosophy about anyone... except I look differently at people who make their career telling people how to eat. Then unfortunately how they are in their own body becomes more relevant to me.

Rawkinlocs, I don't know the answer to why, except to say that it is obvious to me that she hasn't found the answers yet. We lead by example. That's sort of what I mean about walking the walk and talking the talk. Talk is cheap. No, I didn't think she was cheatin' and running off to KFC or anything, though in some sad way wouldn't it almost be a better case for RAW if she wasn't eating all raw. Fortunately there are many excellent examples amidst the beloved members of this site who are awesome.

[QUOTE][You also mentioned that a year or so ago you recall her mentioning her weight and saying she has begun to lose it...so because she mentioned it again in this recent interview you feel she is not telling the truth or something?/QUOTE]

not at all, just that if a year ago she said she is "on it," and has begun to lose it and it has not happened at all, for me that = still haven't figured it out.

I think there is a sort of obligation if you're going to put yourself out there as telling people how to eat, to be a credible example youself. Otherwise people will raise issues exactly such as this.

[iamacranberry]

Victoria has lost a lot of weight...considering the amount of weight she's lost in the relatively short time being raw, she's come a long way, and I'm sure she is constantly losing more and more weight without even trying, healthy as she eats. But weight loss can be a slow process, as can detox, etc.

[luckitri]

Point taken, exurb, and on one level I do agree with you.

Maybe she has a serious health problem that she is dealing with in her own way and she does not want her message to be diluted by that or her lectures to devolve into what she is doing to combat her personal issue.

I just want to allow her that. Eventually we will find out anyway.

[Coriander74]

Ok I've only read through the first SIX pages, so please pardon me if I speak too soon LOL... :p

Someone said that they would prefer to see someone at their optimum so then they could be properly inspired. (or something to this effect).

What has inspired ME is seeing people IN THE PROCESS of their journey, not at the end, because I feel then that I am WITH them, that we're doing this together, that we can inspire each other... and I derive my motivation from that.

I'm nowhere near "optimum" for myself. I still have a good 25 pounds or so to go. My face is broken out, I haven't exercised in weeks (due to a bad cold), but that doesn't stop me from sharing my enthusiasm for Raw. I believe that if people could know what I went through before I found Raw, and what I'm STILL going through... that they're more open to joining the journey.

I LOVE seeing the pictures of people who have been Raw for some time, and who just GLOW (Alissa, Shazzi, Morn, StarFire, etc.) That gives me something to focus on for my future... However, the most important thing about Raw is the NOW. The Health of it all, NOW. Staying cooked for one more day is just one more day of not feeling great. Doing something NOW is what inspires the future :)

That is why I personally feel so much kinship with the people who are currently going through their own battles. I feel so much alikeness with the people who still have weight to lose, or inches to lose, or illness to lose. Because that's where I am, too. That's what gets me going in the morning.

Just some thoughts :o

[EZ rider]

What has inspired ME is seeing people IN THE PROCESS of their journey, not at the end
I agree. For example Doug from California is so inspiring that he has made me feel like I can do it to and I am going to get serious about my exercise program. Have you seen Doug's latest picture ? That work in progress picture says it all.

[domestic goddess]

I am of a completely different world on this topic. I am THRILLED to see a woman who has some meat on her promoting a raw food diet. I mostly lurk on this forum because I get so sick of the 'How-can-I-loose-weight-fast' threads, the constant obsession with how much weight one is loosing, that they aren't loosing fast enough, as much as so-and-so, etc. Maybe this will weed out the people looking for the next fad diet or quick fix, and attract people who are truely looking to make a LIFESTYLE change with a focus on health/healing in which *A* side effect is loosing unecessary weight. Someone who looks at Victoria and sees a larger vibrant healthy woman who has helped heal her family and doesn't CARE about her weight but the benefit of what she is teaching...they stand to gain a heck of alot more than someone who said they aren't trusting what she says because she is a little overweight by some arbitrary standard. To be honest with you, I have read the GS book and if there was a pic, I don't remember. I am sure there is one on her site but I can't remember what anyone looks like. I also don't care. What I care about is the research she did/does, and the message she has. This is healing my family. She could weigh 300lbs for all I care, she knows what she is talking about. I know everyone is certianly enititled to be *here* and on the raw path for their own reasons but YIKES if I have to hear about one more person who isn't getting skinny quick enough...what a shame, because the raw PATH is so much more than that.

:gets off soapbox:

[moncha moncha]

To expand on what EZ rider was saying, many people who eat gourmet raw have 60% or more fat (as a percentage of calories) in their diet. That's as much or more than fast food. Even with a big gs every day, a person who eats gourmet raw the rest of the time could easily not lose weight or even gain weight.

[tali]

She did also state that she had been working on WHY she'd gained back her weight and with her new ideas was hoping to have it off in the next few months.

I, too, was surprised by how she looked. I was happy that she didn't skirt around the issue of it and was OK with explaining the situation.

I look forward to seeing her in the future and seeing if her studies were correct and if she's able to get her weight off.

I also look forward to her new book .. perhaps she'll do it as an eBook and then we don't have to wait for it to be published. *G*

I'm quoting myself, not because I'm vain but ya know, good info (as of August 15th 2007).

Tali

[Azura Skye]

It's really interesting reading all the different viewpoints here.
I agree with bits and bobs from everyone.

I think it is hard to have the ultimate caveman physique in these modern times because we just don't need to move our bodies as much as we would if we were living wild.

Although I do like to see people as an example of what they are talking about = you can still know a lot about something but not follow it - for example you may know a hell of a lot about the bible but not be religious, you may be able to recite 200 poems and not be a poet - at least she is spreading information that people can use to their own benefit if they choose to.

I think this is quite a positive thread.

But I would say - I do think people who want to lose weight and be thin - not to be thin for aesthetic reasons but for health- because ultimately i do believe that if you follow a good diet and become a slighter version of your previous self, then that is healthy - and we shouldn't condemn people for being smaller because we are jealous or for whatever personal reasons - I don't think our human bodies were designed to carry so much fat. We just haven't evolved that way. We need to be muscley - I think that is attractive too, muscles on someone shows fitness, which usually follows if they are healthy!

[NetKaPet]

I was very pleased to read this morning posts from EZ rider, Azure Skye and Luckitri to name a few. I still feel that Victoria, a "professional" in her field, should be the top example of her knowledge. Her plan may be very good, but does it allow one to possibly capture the needed discipline and control to continue on with it? Her own physique says no. I'm very happy to the original poster of this thread. Igor was one of my great inspirations to stay with this diet as he publicizes his healing of his hyperthyroid which I have too. I would love to do the same, but now I have some doubts as to his story. The reason I have doubts is that Victoria is (in my mind) a bit dishonest (in not posting a full length photograph of herself on her website). It was not until I read this thread that I figured out why that is. When one is dishonest even a tiny bit, that makes me think maybe there is other dishonesty as in Igor's battle and cure with hyperthyroidism. I always question. I'm always looking for truthful people. Thanks again for this thread.

[juicyraw]

The one thing that stands out about Victoria to me is that she is a learner. She will keep seeking and experimenting until she gets to the bottom of this and then... we will all benefit greatly because she is also an amazing giver and helper.

It's natural to wonder about this but grab your green smoothie and sit back and watch... She will beat this thing. Guaranteed.

And I'll be all ears, having battled weight all my life!!!!!

:p

[domestic goddess]

The reason I said I was happy to see a larger woman promoting GS and Raw ia because I would hate to see someone whose main concern was health be discouraged because they didn't 'look' raw. I am 5'7", 100% raw and have been for months and weigh 145. The scale doesn not budge much at this point, despite the fact I eat very little fat. HOWEVER I am not as concerned with that as I am the healing that has gone on as a result of me going raw. I will never be a waif, genetically it is not going to happen. So, because I am not 'skinny' does that mean I am not a good spokesperson for raw? I did loose 20lbs, but do I need to loose 20 more so I am skinny before I am believable? What has this world come to that we have to look skinny in order to be considered healthy. I get that medically the more weight we carry on our frames the more potential health issues we will potentially encounter, but really, I may never loose any more weight. Does that make me somehow less of a success?

It isn't the skinny-ness of people that bothers me its the obsession people seem to have with it, and even here where i thought that people would be more concerned with health (and I am generalizing so don't attack) than 'looking' raw. My children are predominantly raw and they are 3 different shapes. My dd is very stocky and muscular, my son is a string bean and my other son is what I would call average to small. Because my dd is not super skinny does that make her less?

I guess I am rethinking my desire to stay a part of this sight with so much emphasis being placed on someone's apperance. No one here has walked a mile in her birks and you have no idea what is going on in her life. Man, I thought this site was different....:(

[ferg]

I haven't had time to read thruogh this whole thread, so someone might have mentinoed this without me realizing... but there are unhealthy raw foods out there too... eating too much dehydrated food, too many nuts, too many raw food bars is really unhealthy and can really put on the pounds and cause bloating... I know this first hand... whenever i eat too many nuts I can gain 5 pounds in no time.

As hard as it is now, I try not to eat any nuts or dehydrated foods and the pounds are falling off. Try to steer clear of those raw desserts too! Hard for those with a sugar addiction, I know!!!

[juicyraw]

domestic goddess, your post reminded me a couple of cats we had once (sorry, we don't have children so cats are my yardstick). One was stick thin and the other was large bone with a large amount of abdominal fat. Tata, the heavier one, never ate more than his stick thin buddy... if anything less. He was even more active. Since that time, I realized it's not all our fault that we tend to be overweight. It is in our make up.

However, we started exercising him daily and he did start trimming down. So, we can have some control... we just might have to work harder at it.

Stick around friend... you never know who you might inspire and help!

[wyjoz]

In a message dated 8/22/2007 8:34:24 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, victoria@rawfamily.com writes:

Dear Joz,
Please let all these people know that I deeply appriciate everyone's kindness and honesty, and that they are my inspiration for my research!
Love, Victoria Boutenko

Note from Joz: She will write a book on 'weight' yea! Thanks Victoria!

no responses needed, thanks!