Raw Dogs--Can U Help my Bully??

[Shanti]

Hey rawbies...I initially posted this at the wrong location....

HI!!

Well, I've been thinking about this route for a while...I have a bulldog who has had NONSTOP health (really primarily skin and allergy issues) from the beginning. I've spent thousands of dollars on her, right down to allergy testing and serum injections....Right now is the worst time of year for her. Just recently my friend told me that in exasperation, she took her dog to a natural health food store, where a woman highly recommended a raw diet. She said 'Sable' is now a NEW dog....hints of allergies are GONE; chronic bladder infections, GONE....the diet is more expensive, but really worth it.
Can anyone else share some experiences?

[catdeveer]

Hey, Shanti.

Check out the Raising Raw Pets forum. Lots of threads and info on feeing various critters raw.

I've fed my dog raw for almost 8 years now (his is 10) and will never go back to manufactured dog foods. My inspiration book was "Feed Your Dog a Bone" by Dr. Ian Billinghurst. He also has a website with good information. Google his name and you'll find all kinds of stuff.

After I transitioned him to raw, his eyes and ears cleared up, his skin was less dry, his teeth stopped getting that nasty dark tartar on them (in fact they are so white the vet asked what i used to brush his teeth with - raw meaty bones! :D ), etc. etc.

I know this is a vegan website, but I do not believe that dogs were meant to be vegans. Different species and all of that, you know. Humans have the ability to make choices about their diets. Dogs (and other animals) were created differently and have different nutritional requirements, and do not have the ability to make those choices. There is a reason dogs chase cats, squirrels and birds, as well as larger animals, and I don't think it's just for fun.

I feed my boy pureed fruits, legumes, greens and vegetables mixed with a raw egg yolk for breakfast and raw meaty bones for dinner. I base the quantities on his weight.

I've found that a good maintenance quantity for him is 2% of his weight in food daily, 60% raw meaty bones and 40% raw fruits and veggies.

So, if my dog weighed 100 lbs (easy math, here), I would feed him a total of 2 lbs of food per day, 1.2 lbs of the raw meaty bones and 0.8 lbs of the raw fruits and veggies.

It's trial and error to see what works best for your dog.

good luck!

cat

[Stina]

I wish my dog would eat a breakfast like that. He won't unless there's a molecule of animal fat on it. The best I can do is mash in green smoothie with raw meat mixed with nutritional yeast and garlic. then he looks at me for a long time before eating it......

[Shanti]

oh, that's great...thanks! Maybe the vet bills will go down....

[catdeveer]

I wish my dog would eat a breakfast like that. He won't unless there's a molecule of animal fat on it. The best I can do is mash in green smoothie with raw meat mixed with nutritional yeast and garlic. then he looks at me for a long time before eating it......

Stina, what are you putting in the green smoothie? that might make the difference. my dog has preferences just like i do and i know what he will and won't eat, or what he'll eat "under protest" so to speak.

when i first put my dog on raw, i bought a prepared mixture of veggies and meaty bones ground up, then over the course of about 2 weeks transitioned him to what i wanted to feed him.

[Stina]

Hey Cat- yeah true huh.

When you say meaty bones, can you clarify that ? I'm not too tuned in with the meat department? are we talking steak on the bone or not that meaty. thanks

[Shanti]

Hey Cat
I too agree that dogs aren't meant to be vegetarians....where do I buy meaty bones, though, and (gross....) what do I have to do with them? I did know a raw foodist who would buy slabs of meat for her dog at the butcher and blend it all in with stuff....but I would prefer to have as little contact with the raw meat as possible.

oh yeah, so the meat is literally RAW? this isn't dangerous?

[catdeveer]

Stina and Shanti:

by raw meaty bones, i mean chicken necks, chicken backs, turkey wings, chicken wings, turkey necks, pork tails, pork neck bones, or for desert, beef neck bones for him to gnaw on (that's how i brush his teeth). yes, steak on the bones is too meaty.

here in the southeast, i can get all of these right at my grocery store (i am so lucky). i used to have to order it by the case from the local butcher and have them split it up into packages with one or two meal quantities in them. i'd get a case of one thing and a case of another thing, then when i ran low buy a case of yet something different and another case of a 4th something different, for variety. each kind of meat has it's own nutritional profile and each type of bone also. variety is good. and yes, i have a large upright freezer. very helpful.

i literally just thaw the meat and put it from the package to the bowl with any juices in the package and serve. i barely touch whatever is for dinner, unless the particular package has the quantity in it for two meals. then i have to split it up.

and yes, raw. dogs have different digestive enzymes than we do and, from what i understand in ian billinghurst's book, are not susceptable to e-coli or any of that other stuff. for them, digestion begins in the mouth. you'd never see a wolf or coyote ask for fried chicken in the wild, guaranteed. they get it raw, eat it raw, and survive quite nicely that way.

cat

[Shanti]

Thanks Cat!
Actually, there's a health dog food store here...and they actually sell raw dog food....I think I'll give this a go, along with the other things that you mentioned. That should alleviate the price a bit, as it can be pretty expensive. Great suggestions.

I definitely know what you mean by dogs in the wild, however, you'll be hard pressed to find a bulldog in the forest!! Unfortunately, they're a "man-made" breed.
OH, another question for you...... do you give your dog heartworm pills or vaccinnations? This raw food friend of mine swears they're dangerous...I've just been so brainwashed, I guess. Does that Dr. address this issue?

[catdeveer]

Shanti - the dog food store can be the most expensive option. i buy my fruits and veggies and legumes frozen right at the grocery story, mix them up still frozen, split them into serving size containers, thaw one daily, add water and the egg yolk, whiz it up in the vita mix and serve. most meals for my boy cost a dollar or less (he's 130 lbs, so gets about 1 lb of fruits and veggies and 1.5 lbs raw meaty bones daily).

but, hang the cost, i say. he's so darn healthy it's worth it. last trip to the vet for his annual checkup and stuff the vet could not believe he is 10 and said "whatever you are doing, don't change it." due to his size and breed (doberman) odds were against him living much past 8 or 9.

as for vaccines etc, they are required in my state. if i ever had to evacuate due to a hurricane, i would not be able to take him with me anywhere without vaccination records, and leaving him behind is not an option. so, no choice. as for heartworm, i'd rather give him heartworm medication than lose him to such a dreadful, slow death. also, mosquitos are a year round issue where i live, and rabid raccoons and stuff have been found within 30 miles of here, so...

it's truly a matter of personal preference, just like feeding raw, just like you choosing to eat raw. we all need to do our research, decide which is the least of all the evils, and do what feels right FOR US. within the bounds of the legal system of where you live.

i cannot remember if dr. billinghurst addressed these issues in the book. he is an australian vet and the regulations there are quite different than here in the states, i gather.

hopefully i haven't confused you.

cat

[SharonC]

Hi Shanti and Luckitri!

Thanks for the welcome in the new members section!

As I said in my introduction post, I have been feeding my dogs raw for about 10 years. Before that I fed my little Yorkie who is 16 a homecooked natural diet for about 4 years until I switched her to raw. Her health issues at a very young age were completely turned around by switching from dead processed nasty stuff to real food even though it was cooked, but she was young and her vital force was strong. I am sure that she would not be doing so well at her age if I had not discovered raw when she was about 6.

My first book was also Billinghurst's 'Give Your Dog a Bone'. Another good one is 'Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats, The Ultimate Diet' by Kymythy Schultze.

Just like there are differences of opinion in the human raw food world, there are differences of opinion in the animal raw food world!

There is a huge animal raw food group out there who strongly believes in feeding prey style ONLY - as close as possible to what they would eat if left on their own without human involvement. They do not feed veggies or fruit - most of them feed green tripe instead. They do very little supplementation - some do fish oils, especially if the meat is factory farmed as it will be low in omega 3's as opposed to grass fed animals who eat their natural diet. They also feed whole parts and stay away from ground.

Then, there are those who do add veggies, fruits, and some grains (but, more and more people are staying away from grains). If decide to feed grains, I would recommend not any more than a one or two meals a week and not combine with meat. I do feed veggies 2 or 3 days a week - mainly leafy greens blended when I make my green smoothies. Also, feed veggies and nuts for treats, but they are not able to benefit from the nutrients unless the cell wall is broken down (by blending), but they are great for treats!

There are also people who have an issue with feeding whole parts (me!!) Have done it in the past, but I now feed mostly ground lamb and rabbit with the bone, eggs, and sardines (some canned and occasionally whole fresh). I do give them grass fed beef ribs outside a few days a week that they can rip the meat off the bone - helps with cleaning their teeth and recreation (also give bully sticks).

When feeding a non bone meal can dry eggshells in the dehydrator, grind them in coffee grinder, save in the fridge, and give 1/2 teaspoon per pound of meat to balance calcium/phosphorus. There are recipes out there that add bone meal if not feeding bone, but I would not recommend that.

Some feed dairy, some do not. The only dairy I have ever fed is yogurt or kefir, but do not do that much anymore.

It is vital to feed organ meats (10% of diet). I feed organs 2 meals a week - can also just add it into any meal.

Some people just do not want to feed 100% this way. I encourage people who still want to feed 'dog food' to find the very best natural dog food and add to the diet as much fresh, preferably raw food as possible.

Some feed healthy leftovers to their dogs as a portion of their overall diet.

Variety is important just like it is with our diet...

There are frozen raw foods out there that are mixtures of meat with the bone, organs, veggies, and sometimes other additions that I do not care for. But, there are some that are JUST meat with bone or JUST meat with bone, organs, and veggies. I like the JUST meat ones because I do my own organ meats and veggies. And, I prefer to do my own supplements - mainly fish oil. Also give my 16 year old digestive enzymes, a joint supplement, a few other supportive whole food supplements, and occasionally probiotics.

Some fast one day a week - there are even a few (very few) who feed similar to the way they would eat in the wild by feeding a HUGE gorge meal and then go for a few days without feeding (my dogs would kill me!) I fast them one day a week (Monday) but only until dinnertime, and my 16 year old is not happy with me at all!

It also helps to have an extra freezer in the garage just for the dog's food so you don't have to have meat in your freezer!

I hope I didn't make it sound too complicated because it's really not!!

Regarding the whole health picture, it is important to understand vaccination issues because they are heavily marketed as 'necessary' these days - rabies is the only one 'required' by law and in most states the law has been changed to every 3 years - even in my state of Texas. (Many 'enlightened' holistic vets will write exemptions for rabies if a dog is unhealthy. The vaccine label CLEARLY states that it is only to be given to healthy animals.) And the general 'recommendations' for all other vaccines has also been changed to every 3 years and this was a compromise. There have been challenge studies done that prove most vaccines are effective for 7 years to life. There is a huge 7 years rabies challenge study going on right now, but it is being funded by private donations because the 'system' would never fund a study that would not be profitable to those who profit from the system. It is interesting to know that a 1 year vaccine and a 3 year vaccine are EXACTLY the same - only the label is different. They can label it a 3 year vaccine because there have been 3 year challenge studies.

Vaccines have nothing to do with 'true' health and actually contribute to or cause many health issues. There is so much information on this subject, but this is a great first step introduction - http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/health/common/vaccinations.html

Hope this helps,
Sharon

[luckitri]

Thanks SharonC. I will have to reinvestigate this as my dogs have turned down all organ meats as well as eggs or fowl and the only thing I can count on them eating is the pork neck bones.

[Miss Marie]

Dogs can go for a few meals without eating - put the food down in their bowl and wait a few minutes for them to eat it - if they don't eat,

Take the bowl away and don't give them anything until the next meal time (give them the same thing you tried feeding earlier)

more times than not - if you do this a few times they WILL eat it

Don't give into your dog's stubborness ;)

[catdeveer]

yeah, what sharonc said! :D

wow. i knew all of that, but i've been doing my own thing a la billinghurst for so long that i forgot all of that!

i myself don't feed grains, but there are usually at least 2 if not 3 different types of legumes mixed in with his breakfast puree.

i also do not fast my dog. he is on the thin side of a good weight for him (i know - whodathunk a 130 lb doberman would be on the "thin side of lean"? :eek: ) and i sometimes have a hard time keeping his weight up to where it should be. when that happens i supplement with dried alfalfa leaf juice concentrate and kelp. keeps his weight where it should be.

sharonc - i'm curious to know why organ meats are "vital"? thanks!

cat

[SharonC]

Hi Cat!

The following explains...
(I get my organ meat from clean sources - lamb and beef that have been raised naturally on pasture - grass fed their whole lives. The premade raw mixes that are designed to be complete and balanced, contain a small percentage of organs)

http://www.barfproducts.com/barfdiet.htm

OFFAL
In the wild, dogs eat the stomach content and organ meat from the animals they prey upon. In fact, internal organs form a vital part of the wild dog's diet. Modern dogs have similar requirements. Dogs consuming these foods as part of a sensible diet have superior health to dogs that do not eat them. Although organ meats are valuable dog food, they are not required in huge amounts. They are a concentrated source of many essential nutrients and are particularly valuable during times of growth, reproduction and stress as a source of concentrated nutrients.

Liver
In this one product is a vast range of important nutrition. Liver is the most concentrated source of vitamin A and should be fed in small amounts on a regular basis. It also contains vitamins E, D, and K in substantial quantities. Liver is an excellent source of the minerals zinc, manganese, selenium and iron. It also contains all the B vitamins, particularly B2, B3, B5, biotin, folacin, B12, choline, and inositol. It contains B1 in adequate or smaller amounts and is a good source of vitamin C. Liver provides a source of good quality protein and the essential fatty acids, both the omega-3 and omega-6 type. It's a fantastic food for your dog!

Kidneys
Not unlike liver, kidney supplies good quality protein, essential fatty acids and many vitamins including all the fat soluble vitamins A, D, E and K. Kidneys are a rich source of iron and all the B vitamins. They also have good levels of zinc.

Heart
Like liver and kidneys, heart as dog food is an excellent source of protein, B vitamins and iron. They do contain some essential fatty acids and a little vitamin A. Heart contains appreciable levels of taurine which is important food... for the heart!

Unbleached Green Tripe
Green tripe is the edible lining and accompanying content of a cow or other ruminant's first or second division of the stomach. Paunch tripe comes from the large first stomach division and honeycomb tripe comes from the second division. Both wild canids and domestic dogs benefit from eating tripe as it contains a very diverse profile of living nutrients including enzymes, omega- 3 and 6 fatty acids, probiotics, and phytonutrients. It has long been quoted as being "the finest of natural foods".

[Strawberry Smoothie]

oh yeah, so the meat is literally RAW? this isn't dangerous?

It's not dangerous for dogs. In the wild they would kill an animal and eat it without cooking it. It's the healthiest diet for them.

[catdeveer]

cool, SharonC, Thanks!

Guess I need to start getting organs again. I used to a long time ago and stopped, can't remember why. Availability at the time, I think.

i'm on it!

blessings,

cat

[freelive]

I do not have a dog yet, but my friend tried to feed her dog raw meat and she(the dog) got fluke type parasites. My friend has a baby, so she got scared and feeds her dog dried stuff again. How do you deal with that problem?

[raw4liz]

hi :)
i have 3 bulldogs that are rawfed. have you switched your bullies diet & how is she doing?

liz

[chilove]

Hi there,

All of my pets (two dogs, a cat and two rats) are 100% and all are in excellent health and have been for several years. Putting your dog on a 100% raw meaty bones diet is the absolute best thing you can do for her. If you need more specific info on what/how to feed raw, you can find lots of info online, there are several raw dog yahoo groups. I also highly recommend the consultation services of a wonderful raw teacher who also specializes in feeding dogs and cats raw, Nora Lenz. You can find her info at her website:www.rawschool.com.

Blessings,

Audrey
www.rawhealing.com