I thought this site was raw VEGAN

[RawChicky]

I am wondering why it is ok to mention or encourage raw honey here? This site is raw vegan and honey is not a vegan food by any means. I was going to post a website that goes into detail of the mistreatment of honey bees, but I wasn't sure if posting links is allowed. I just don't understand why some animal products are shunned, but bees are the exception. To me, all animals are equal, this makes no sense at all. What's the deal?

[eatyourbroccoli]

probably because raw honey is a debatable vegan food, and this is more so a forum geared towards the raw diet as a vegan-for-health lifestyle than the ethical-vegan lifestyle

[barose]

probably because raw honey is a debatable vegan food, and this is more so a forum geared towards the raw diet as a vegan-for-health lifestyle than the ethical-vegan lifestyle

Exactly what I was thinking.

I personally only buy honey from local organic or pesticide-free sources.

[Revvell]

probably because raw honey is a debatable vegan food, and this is more so a forum geared towards the raw diet as a vegan-for-health lifestyle than the ethical-vegan lifestyle

That's my take on it.

Revvell

[dreamrawalwz]

I wonder too, but I think i'ts been "Debated" on here a few times actually. When I first went raw vegan I used honey (I guess i wasn't vegan then was I?) becuase I didn't think about it NOT being vegan. I just didn't think about it at all. I didn't use that much, but still. I now see how it is NOT vegan, even if it is raw or not. Raw honey is better than cooked true, but what about those that talk about raw milk on this site? They're told this is a vegan site. Sorry, I'm not upset or angry or even saying "how DARE you eat honey!", just expressing my views and what I've seen on the site throughout the years. Don't hurt me!!

[barose]

It seems to be either is it raw or is it vegan?

Agave is not raw.
Honey is not vegan.

We talk about agave here daily even though this is RAW Food Talk. I have no problem with it personally because I like it. :) Why not address every single questionable item in this case?

[Ginger]

probably because raw honey is a debatable vegan food, and this is more so a forum geared towards the raw diet as a vegan-for-health lifestyle than the ethical-vegan lifestyle

I don't see how an animal product can be debatable really. It is made by an animal and since bees puke it up it actually contains animal- bee spit lol. I don't eat it often but sometimes I do eat it or pollen so I usually say I am vegan except for the occasional bee products.

[eatyourbroccoli]

i sometimes wonder how many bugs raw vegans inadvertently eat from not properly washing organic greens or berries or....and how that affects their vegan status.

[irishserra]

From what I've been reading the past week and a half on this site, being 100 percent raw is not a requirement to post, nor is it required in order to achieve positive physical and mental results (although I imagine to achieve OPTIMUM results it would be).

Perhaps it may take some people longer than others to be weaned away from a SAD diet.

I'm not offended when I read posts by members who are 60-80 percent raw, yet include cold water fish in their diet.

Additionally, I personally know bee keepers who have, as far as I know, not mistreated their honey bees. Maybe I need more information as to how bees are being mistreated. Maybe I should visit PETA for more info?

Personally, I think the greater crime is that because of wide-spread cell phone usage and pollution, bees in general are dying out.

[RawChicky]

i sometimes wonder how many bugs raw vegans inadvertently eat from not properly washing organic greens or berries or....and how that affects their vegan status.

yes I think about that too, like where do we draw the line, you know? But, to me, there is a huge difference between inadvertently and purposefully eating animals or animal products. The fact is, honey bees are horribly mistreated and it is confusing that vegans (or anybody) just look the other way.

[eatyourbroccoli]

From what I've been reading the past week and a half on this site, being 100 percent raw is not a requirement to post, nor is it required in order to achieve positive physical and mental results (although I imagine to achieve OPTIMUM results it would be).

Perhaps it may take some people longer than others to be weaned away from a SAD diet.

I'm not offended when I read posts by members who are 60-80 percent raw, yet include cold water fish in their diet.

Additionally, I personally know bee keepers who have, as far as I know, not mistreated their honey bees. Maybe I need more information as to how bees are being mistreated. Maybe I should visit PETA for more info?

Personally, I think the greater crime is that because of wide-spread cell phone usage and pollution, bees in general are dying out.

but ya still see ethical vegans talkin on their cell phones as they drive to the corner market in their SUVs to buy agave because how dare anyone eat honey! ;)



im not flaming, i promise. a few of my best friends are strict vegans and will shower you with pro-vegan facts if you so much as stumble over the word "jeez" and they mistake it for "cheese." i joke in love.

[RawChicky]

From what I've been reading the past week and a half on this site, being 100 percent raw is not a requirement to post, nor is it required in order to achieve positive physical and mental results (although I imagine to achieve OPTIMUM results it would be).

Perhaps it may take some people longer than others to be weaned away from a SAD diet.

I'm not offended when I read posts by members who are 60-80 percent raw, yet include cold water fish in their diet.

Additionally, I personally know bee keepers who have, as far as I know, not mistreated their honey bees. Maybe I need more information as to how bees are being mistreated. Maybe I should visit PETA for more info?

Personally, I think the greater crime is that because of wide-spread cell phone usage and pollution, bees in general are dying out.

Well I am not offended by people posting who are not 100% raw/vegan at all. I just didn't really understand why raw honey was sometimes encouraged on this site, whether for recipes or body care, while I'm SURE if anyone recommended eating or using cold water fish on their body, they'd get some negative responses.

[barose]

yes I think about that too, like where do we draw the line, you know? But, to me, there is a huge difference between inadvertently and purposefully eating animals or animal products. The fact is, honey bees are horribly mistreated and it is confusing that vegans (or anybody) just look the other way.

Not every feels the same way about every issue, even when it comes to eating a raw vegan diet. Personally, I don’t have the same type of passion for these things. I don’t buy commercially raised honey; you don’t buy or eat it at all. My line is drawn in a different place than yours.

I won’t dispute you (not that I’m trying to be contrary – I get your points!) unless Alissa comes and tells us not to talk about honey.

[the_lab_rat]

I just don't understand why some animal products are shunned, but bees are the exception. To me, all animals are equal, this makes no sense at all.

Totally agree with you! When I found out about the mistreatment of honey bees, I was appalled. We haven't bought honey since. It's really frustrating to see so many honey-containing products labeled 'vegan.' Bees are still living creatures. I don't even see what's debatable about it. I know most people think of bees as "just bugs" but that doesn't mean it's ok if they're mistreated.


this is more so a forum geared towards the raw diet as a vegan-for-health lifestyle than the ethical-vegan lifestyle

That makes sense... but in terms of health, honey really isn't all that great anyway. It has a pretty high glycemic index and glycemic load--not as bad as regular sugar, but not much better. And all the nutrients in honey are present in such low amounts that you'd have to eat tons of it to make a difference. Just because it's better than sugar doesn't mean it's healthy. Also, babies under 1 year old shouldn't eat honey at all (there are even warning labels on a lot of honey bottles) because their digestive systems aren't equipped to handle any bacterial spores that might be present in the honey. Don't a lot of raw people say "if you wouldn't feed it to a baby, why would you eat it either?" Hmm.

[irishserra]

Will someone please direct me to information regarding the ethical (or non) treatment of honey bees??

I've never heard of such a thing and nothing is more annoying that reading posts from a person who doesn't know what on earth they are talking about (in this case - potentially Me :p )

I'm all ears! - or eyes, in this case. :o

[LoveLife]

I'm curious about why some people I've seen lately saying that Agave is not RAW?...I am looking at my bottle of Agave...and this is what mine says..

Brand: The Raw Choice
On the back: The Raw Choice Raw Organic Agave nectar is certified for its purity and is specially produced without heat to preserve its vitamins and minerals while maximizing flavor.

So I'm just wondering if people have found out that it is a lie?

Sorry I didn't mean to high-jack this thread...I've just noticed this a lot lately...

I also would love to see that link about honey...I was a Vegan b4 I started Raw..but I did eat honey..only becuz I hadn't looked up enough information about honey yet...and for awhile I thought it was just one of those debateable things..like still watching movies or taking pictures even tho film is not vegan...and stuff like that....But I am very interested in some true facts about the wellfare of bees...also I had never heard that cellphone use killed bees?...how does it do that?

[dahlila]

i sometimes wonder how many bugs raw vegans inadvertently eat from not properly washing organic greens or berries or....and how that affects their vegan status.

I find this to be really interesting.... I am currently happily raw and vegan (well I do eat some honey), but I also wonder about such things.

Where do you draw the line with what you kill and don't kill?

In India, the Jains actually sweep their path before stepping to avoid killing microscopic bugs in their way. There is one extreme.

I spent a long time studying under a Tibetan Buddhist lama at her retreat center in Northern India. She and the nuns that lived there were the most compassionate beings I've ever met. However, all they ate was meat and more meat. For one, they are Tibetan and in Tibet, there was no vegetation available to eat high in the mountainous regions (which is the majority of the country). Also, her view on eating meat was that all sentient beings were equal in their worth and when a vegetable field is harvested infinite numbers of bugs and other life forms are killed, so was that really more compassionate?

I am not saying I agree with her, I am still on the fence about these things. I do think the most important thing is one's mindset behind the choices they make. I seek everyday to make higher, more sustainable, & compassionate choices than the day before. We will never make perfect choices, we live in an imperfect world. But we can always make better ones.

[RawChicky]

Will someone please direct me to information regarding the ethical (or non) treatment of honey bees??

I've never heard of such a thing and nothing is more annoying that reading posts from a person who doesn't know what on earth they are talking about (in this case - potentially Me :p )

I'm all ears! - or eyes, in this case. :o


Here's a link to the bee info

http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

[Revvell]

Here's the other side (I think, not looking at the other one):

http://rawfood.revvell.com/monthly/2007/05.aspx

[Ginger]

Where do you draw the line with what you kill and don't kill?


I think it is a whole 'nother thing to accidentally kill a bug vs steeling bees food from them.

[dreamrawalwz]

i sometimes wonder how many bugs raw vegans inadvertently eat from not properly washing organic greens or berries or....and how that affects their vegan status.

I see that as different. Vegans intentionally choose not to eat animal products. Sometimes anyone can't help little organisms they cannot see ya know?

I see some saying that they get pesticide free honey that they know does not cause harm for the bees. I'm just wondering what would be said if someone on this board or any other vegan board said they got raw unpasturized milk where they know the farmer does not misstreat their cows. See the comparison? Maybe it's just me lol.

I dunno, once I figured out what honey WAS it grossed me out and I would never touch it again! Doesn't mean that everyone feels that way and I respect that fully. Everyone has a choice. If some are raw and the only animal product they have is raw honey and that keeps them from eating cooked doughnuts or some other SAD treat, then that's what they should do.

As for agave, just because it says raw doesn't mean it is, just like many "raw" packaged items. I guess it also depends on the temp. they use to process it because some say it's no longer raw after 105 degrees, some 110, and others 118. I know the "raw" agave we sell in my store says it isnt heated above 118 degrees. Yes, that's low, but to me that doesn't mean it's truely raw.

[barose]

I'm curious about why some people I've seen lately saying that Agave is not RAW?...I am looking at my bottle of Agave...and this is what mine says..

Brand: The Raw Choice
On the back: The Raw Choice Raw Organic Agave nectar is certified for its purity and is specially produced without heat to preserve its vitamins and minerals while maximizing flavor.

So I'm just wondering if people have found out that it is a lie?

Sorry I didn't mean to high-jack this thread...I've just noticed this a lot lately...
?

Someone here has a link pointing out which foods are not really raw. Agave is still up for debate. Some people thinks its raw, but some sources revealed that agave is heated over a certain temp.

I have a couple of links about the subject, but they are links other forums. I'm not sure if its in violation of the TOU.

[eatyourbroccoli]

I find this to be really interesting.... I am currently happily raw and vegan (well I do eat some honey), but I also wonder about such things.

Where do you draw the line with what you kill and don't kill?

In India, the Jains actually sweep their path before stepping to avoid killing microscopic bugs in their way. There is one extreme.

I spent a long time studying under a Tibetan Buddhist lama at her retreat center in Northern India. She and the nuns that lived there were the most compassionate beings I've ever met. However, all they ate was meat and more meat. For one, they are Tibetan and in Tibet, there was no vegetation available to eat high in the mountainous regions (which is the majority of the country). Also, her view on eating meat was that all sentient beings were equal in their worth and when a vegetable field is harvested infinite numbers of bugs and other life forms are killed, so was that really more compassionate?



wow..i have never thought of it from that perspective before. thats very interesting. :)

[Ginger]

Actually I don't think it's nice to factory farm plants either. They do have a consciousness & are alive. It's just not very practical for most people to eat all wild foods right now. :(

[Rawkinlocs]

Okay, well then rather than calling this a raw VEGAN site...how 'bout a raw VEGETARIAN site? No, not everyone here is what some consider to be true vegan and yes, to a vegan the whole "honey thing" is a contradiction...but the whole fact is, animal flesh and milk consumption is not discussed here. Why is honey allowed? I don't know and I really don't care as I'm NOT a "true" vegan in every sense of the word. But it has been allowed since the conception of this forum whereas meat, dairy and eggs was not and that's just the way it's always been and is.

I never tell people, "We don't talk about animal consumption because this is a raw VEGAN site" because I've seen this argument a gazillion times over and over and I know the outcome of this argument and I know that folks never agree on the whole issue of whether or not bees are treated fairly or poorly when obtaining honey. So, I just say, "We don't discuss the consumption of animals or dairy here" or "We don't discuss it because it's a raw vegan/vegetarian site".

The last time Alissa chimed in on one of these honey debates, her thing was simply...if you don't want to use honey then don't use it. But if anyone wants to debate with her on why it is allowed or encouraged, then you'll have to take that up with her!

But I've seen other raw fooders refer to themselves as vegan although they use honey. Storm and Jinjee come to mind and here is an excerpt from their site thegardendiet.com - not saying this is a definitive answer or anything...just giving an example:

==========
"Q: Which should we use as sweetener: honey or maple syrup? I've heard that honey is not really a vegan food since it comes from bees. We love what you're doing. You have shown us what is possible and what we as humans can and should achieve. Keep going!!!

A: Thank you! We use honey. Some people feel it is not a vegan product because it is made by bees. However it is never actually a part off the bee’s body. Honey is flower nectar transported by the bees in a special sack just for that purpose. You can read how bees make honey on Ask Science Theatre. The health benefits of honey are well documented. It was used medicinally by Native Americans. Only buy honey that is labeled “Raw, Unfiltered”. Most honey is heated to make it easier to bottle. Raw honey is very thick and quite opaque. Agave (cactus) nectar may be a good sweetener too but it is questionable whether it is really raw even when marked raw. If you find a brand of raw Agave nectar contact the company to find out if they heat it at all. Maple syrup is always heated to make it runny enough to bottle it so we don’t use maple syrup at all, although many raw chefs use it.
==========

But again, this debate is nothing new and it will probably continue 'til the end of time - is honey vegan...does it harm the bees when harvested...is it disrupting the bees...are the bees mistreated...my uncle is a dear, sweet old bee keeper and he treats his bees with love and kisses...

The answers will vary depending on whom you ask as with anything else so...

[Elle_Murphy]

Ummm. I am a RAW VEGAN & everywhere Vegan you go lists Honey as optional. I sub Agave for Honey, but everyone has their own choice.

I think the link would be good for ppl to see.

[RawChicky]

Ummm. I am a RAW VEGAN & everywhere Vegan you go lists Honey as optional. I sub Agave for Honey, but everyone has their own choice.

I think the link would be good for ppl to see.

I posted a link and so did revvell

[Eva]

This is such an interesting topic. I recently purchased honey because of the debate about whether agave was really raw.

With honey, I can FEEL the sugar rush the same way I would if I added sugar to something, so I know it is not the best for my body anyways. And I'm finding it very highly addictive for some reason... So are my stepkids who now ask for it in smoothies every day since I got the honey...

I hadn't really thought about the humanity of honey production, but that gives it another perspective.

I probably won't have lots of honey now that I can picture it as not so nice and too sugary and puke anyways.

:::Shrugs shoulders:::

[irishserra]

I guess it is for everyone to pick and chose their own evils.

I drive a car.

I own a cell phone. Those factors alone are HORRIBLE for the environment AND the bees.

I live in a home that sits on what was a forest that housed animals.

There is wood trim in my home that once was a live tree.

I am consuming the life essence of a carrot when I munch on it.

I maim my grass every week with the mower.

I swat mosquitoes when they land on me.

I kill germs and bacteria on a daily basis when I wash.

...And, once in a blue moon, I eat honey.

Ultimately, I believe that those who want to debate such matters have good intentions, but if I spent so much time debating and thinking about it, I think I'd go nuts and lock myself in my room and never come out - and yet I'd still be dominating some sort of living creature, I'm sure.

However, I do give props to those who attempt to and believe they are maintaining a totally peaceful life style.

[Elle_Murphy]

I guess it is for everyone to pick and chose their own evils.

I drive a car.

I own a cell phone. Those factors alone are HORRIBLE for the environment AND the bees.

I live in a home that sits on what was a forest that housed animals.

There is wood trim in my home that once was a live tree.

I am consuming the life essence of a carrot when I munch on it.

I maim my grass every week with the mower.

I swat mosquitoes when they land on me.

I kill germs and bacteria on a daily basis when I wash.

...And, once in a blue moon, I eat honey.

Ultimately, I believe that those who want to debate such matters have good intentions, but if I spent so much time debating and thinking about it, I think I'd go nuts and lock myself in my room and never come out - and yet I'd still be dominating some sort of living creature, I'm sure.

However, I do give props to those who attempt to and believe they are maintaining a totally peaceful life style.

This is the most Honest & REAL thing I have read in a very long time. I applaud you for this. I really do. It gets so aggravating when someone gets picked apart.

[Elizabeth]

=!!!

A: Thank you! We use honey. Some people feel it is not a vegan product because it is made by bees. However it is never actually a part off the bee’s body. Honey is flower nectar transported by the bees in a special sack just for that purpose. You can read how bees make honey on Ask Science Theatre. The health benefits of honey are well documented. It was used medicinally by Native Americans. Only buy honey that is labeled “Raw, Unfiltered”. Most honey is heated to make it easier to bottle. Raw honey is very thick and quite opaque. Agave (cactus) nectar may be a good sweetener too but it is questionable whether it is really raw even when marked raw. If you find a brand of raw Agave nectar contact the company to find out if they heat it at all. Maple syrup is always heated to make it runny enough to bottle it so we don’t use maple syrup at all, although many raw chefs use it.
==========

But again, this debate is nothing new and it will probably continue 'til the end of time - is honey vegan...does it harm the bees when harvested...is it disrupting the bees...are the bees mistreated...my uncle is a dear, sweet old bee keeper and he treats his bees with love and kisses...

The answers will vary depending on whom you ask as with anything else so...


This is a great response.. Thanks for posting it Cherie..

here is another interesting (at least to me) perspective...

http://satyamag.com/sept05/greger.html

[spiralgirl]

[QUOTE=barose;301619

I personally only buy honey from local organic or pesticide-free sources.[/QUOTE]

barose,

Yes, I'm having a hard time deciding about whether to give up honey. I've only been Raw for 36 days and use local organic honey. I want to support the local farmers here and I really like honey. It is the only non vegan thing I have in my diet. Also I use agave too but buy the raw variety from Madhava.

I'm learning a lot from reading this post.

[Stina]

I have several friends who are beekeepers and love their bees and harvesting the honey is a joy. I don't see any animal abuse and am considering doing it myself.

[andypdx]

There will always be "VEGETARIANS" who eat fish.

There will always be "VEGANS" who eat honey.

This is the way it has always been. People like the word "vegetarian", and they like the word "vegan". It makes them feel special. It makes them feel like they are part of an elite group of people.

And don't confuse yourself about the issue of the "treatment" of the bees. This is a straw man, pure and simple. Does it really matter that the bees are being mistreated? By eating honey, you are stealing the food of the hive. It shouldn't matter how "nicely" they are being treated.

For instance, If I went to my neighbor's house, gave him a foot massage and complimented him on his haircut, then walked out his back door with his television set, should I feel fine about stealing his property, just because I "treated him nice"?

Not in my opinion.

[Stina]

There will always be "VEGETARIANS" who eat fish.

There will always be "VEGANS" who eat honey.

This is the way it has always been. People like the word "vegetarian", and they like the word "vegan". It makes them feel special. It makes them feel like they are part of an elite group of people.

And don't confuse yourself about the issue of the "treatment" of the bees. This is a straw man, pure and simple. Does it really matter that the bees are being mistreated? By eating honey, you are stealing the food of the hive. It shouldn't matter how "nicely" they are being treated.

For instance, If I went to my neighbor's house, gave him a foot massage and complimented him on his haircut, then walked out his back door with his television set, should I feel fine about stealing his property, just because I "treated him nice"?

Not in my opinion.

Are you joking?

[andypdx]

Are you joking?
About what?

[Davylp25]

* Hmmmmm I love dippin my Granny Smith's in my HONEY HONEY HONEY as I read these posts - Cheers*;) :D ;) :D

[Stina]

About what?

Well, did your neighbor enjoy the foot massage you gave him? ;)

[andypdx]

Well, did your neighbor enjoy the foot massage you gave him? ;)
The foot massage was hypothetical. I was trying to convey the concept that "good treatment" or "lack of mistreatment" does not necessarily excuse oneself from the fact that when one eats honey, an involuntary transference of property (theft) has occurred.

I do not eat honey because I find the idea of stealing anything from sentient beings to be morally repugnant. This is the ethical reason why honey is not vegan.

Honey is produced by bees through a specific enzymatic process that requires the involvement of their bodies. This is the scientific reason why honey is an animal product, and therefore not vegan.

If you feel that you absolutely must eat honey, then nothing any vegan will say can stop you. Please realize that there is truly raw agave available. There are two completely different processes for processing agave. One that heats the syrup to about 160°F, and another that heats it to about 110°F. Agave produced at this lower temperature is readily available if you seek it out.

TO say "agave is not raw" is no different from saying "cashews are not raw". If you are indiscriminate in your purchasing habits, chances are that you will get the non-raw version of each of these products. Conversely, if you put a bit a effort into it, you can assure yourself that what you are getting is not heated above the critical point.

[the_lab_rat]

Yes, like andypdx said (and btw, awesome post, thank you! :) ) I too have seen brands of agave that haven't been heated above 110 or whatever. I'm sure there is some "raw" agave that isn't really raw, but there are some brands that are. I tend to see them at independent health food stores or smaller hfs chains. I'm sure it can be ordered online too. Not sure about the stuff at Whole Foods. If you look into the companies that make them, you can find out for sure.
Agave seems to be healthier than honey anyway, at least in terms of blood sugar. It has a GI of only like 15 or something, whereas honey is like 85. You don't get that sugar rush with agave, and I think diabetics can even have it.

[Morn]

i sometimes wonder how many bugs raw vegans inadvertently eat from not properly washing organic greens or berries or....and how that affects their vegan status.

Ok that is too funny!:D

[Stina]

Just kidding Andy; I was trying to get you to lighten up. My friends who do the bee keeping are farmers and real salt of the earth type; I think the foot massage similie would go over their heads and I definitely would never think of these kind people as thieves. My last job at a health food store had a lot of free entertainment; one co-worker was a Southern Baptist and another was a vegan and the air was full of self-righteous arguements. I'd stay out of it and just listen them and occasionally crack a joke, but my humor was not usually appreciated. I wonder why!

[Kitty]

Ok I am just curious I guess I am still learning about the ethical part of being a vegan. When I first was reading on if I should be a vegan or vegetarian I read many posts (not on this site) from people who said that if they could have there own cow and chickens they would not be vegan any more? They would then drink milk and eat eggs. SO because of that I came to the conclusion that it wasn't because milking a cow was harmful *dont they have to be milked?* but HOW it was being done in the factory farms etc. Same with eggs, and thought the same with honey? Which brings me to the point about getting honey from your own source, how is that harmful? I guess I am confused. Of course being raw I don't want to eat dairy or eggs but I would just like to hear peoples thoughts so I can understand better.:confused:

[the_lab_rat]

Which brings me to the point about getting honey from your own source, how is that harmful? I guess I am confused. Of course being raw I don't want to eat dairy or eggs but I would just like to hear peoples thoughts so I can understand better.:confused:

Kitty,

All the vegans I know have their own particular set of rules and opinions and reasons. For some, it is only about how the animal product is collected, as you said; others believe animals shouldn't be kept for food/products at all, no matter how humanely they're treated. Ask a dozen vegans, you'll get a dozen different answers :) Personally, if I had my own cows and chickens, I'd give them lots of land to roam free and just live rather than existing only as tools for human use.

As for the bee question... bees make honey as food for themselves during winter months when flowers and nectar are more scarce. That's why earlier in this thread people were talking about stealing the bees' food. Given the resources, a beehive can produce more honey than the bees need to eat; that's why some people have no qualms about collecting the honey. Maybe if a beekeeper knew enough about bees to leave plenty of honey for them, and made sure not to hurt the bees or damage their hive while collecting honey, then it wouldn't be harmful. I don't know enough about it to be certain. My personal opinion is... well, I once read that one bee only makes like 1/10 teaspoon of honey in her lifetime! So to some vegans like me, it seems very selfish of us to consume in 5 seconds something that it took a bee her entire life to make.

Anyway, that's my take on it :)

[andypdx]

Ok I am just curious I guess I am still learning about the ethical part of being a vegan. When I first was reading on if I should be a vegan or vegetarian I read many posts (not on this site) from people who said that if they could have there own cow and chickens they would not be vegan any more? They would then drink milk and eat eggs. SO because of that I came to the conclusion that it wasn't because milking a cow was harmful *dont they have to be milked?* but HOW it was being done in the factory farms etc. Same with eggs, and thought the same with honey? Which brings me to the point about getting honey from your own source, how is that harmful? I guess I am confused. Of course being raw I don't want to eat dairy or eggs but I would just like to hear peoples thoughts so I can understand better.:confused:
Well, Kitty, factory farming is definitely a nightmare for animals. This is a major reason why vegans are opposed to the use of animal products. But where does this leave "humanely raised" animal products? I'm of the opinion that non-human animals should simply be left alone. Not used. Not abused. Not taken advantage of in any way.

Let's look at honey...

Do you realize it takes over FIFTY THOUSAND bee miles to produce a single pound of honey?

That's a whole heck of a lot of work if you ask me! Now tell me...how would you feel if you had to travel fifty thousand miles to obtain food for yourself and your children, and then right when as you get back, some big giant invades your home, fills it with smoke, and takes your food?

You'd be pretty mad, wouldn't you? How about this...? How would you feel if you came home from the farmers market with several bags of fresh fruits and vegetables, just for some real jerk of a fellow to swipe a few bags just as you walk in the front door? "I'm not HARMING you," he might chuckle, as he walks away, taking a nice big bite into one of those juicy organic peaches you were looking forward to.

People like to think that animals are dumb creatures who don't know or care when humans come around and take advantage of them. This simply isn't the case. They do care, and they do suffer. Bees are incredibly advanced creatures with a very complex society, amazing communication abilities, and active memories. Besides, non-human animals are not ours to enslave for any reason. Despite what many of you (myself included) have have heard from your family, or society, or some 2,000 year old book, we really have no right to satisfy our selfish needs at the expense of other helpless beings.

Hey, one upon a time, even I ate honey without giving it a second thought. Until I realized, that is, that I could not, with full intellectual honesty, justify why I should enjoy the fruits of countless hours of tireless work by other beings. Beings who thought that all of their hard work was going toward THEIR benefit.

As I see it, taking honey from bees is nothing short of theft and slavery.

Of course, if anyone here can explain to me how this kind of wholesale theft CAN be justified, then I'm all ears.

[belleadonna]

What it really boils down too is that it is each persons business what they eat or don't eat. If you don't want to eat honey for ethical reasons, then don't. If you want to eat it and don't feel that it is a sin, then eat it. This arguement is kind of useless because it will never be solved.

[Revvell]

What it really boils down too is that it is each persons business what they eat or don't eat. If you don't want to eat honey for ethical reasons, then don't. If you want to eat it and don't feel that it is a sin, then eat it. This arguement is kind of useless because it will never be solved.

Amen!

Having said that, I'm thinking some of you haven't listened to the podcast I did with 4 honey keepers/suppliers. Bees, just from all those miles they fly, pretty much die after their work is done. Their lifespan is approximately two weeks (maybe I need to listen again). Anyway, I did the interviews to quell these kinds of questions. Guess people would rather argue/debate than hear from those who know (not me sillies!! The keepers/suppliers!!!)! :rolleyes:

Revvell

[Craig]

There will always be "VEGETARIANS" who eat fish.

There will always be "VEGANS" who eat honey.

This is the way it has always been. People like the word "vegetarian", and they like the word "vegan". It makes them feel special. It makes them feel like they are part of an elite group of people.

And don't confuse yourself about the issue of the "treatment" of the bees. This is a straw man, pure and simple. Does it really matter that the bees are being mistreated? By eating honey, you are stealing the food of the hive. It shouldn't matter how "nicely" they are being treated.

For instance, If I went to my neighbor's house, gave him a foot massage and complimented him on his haircut, then walked out his back door with his television set, should I feel fine about stealing his property, just because I "treated him nice"?

Not in my opinion.

Then you might just as well quit eating. Chopping and eating up that poor tomato shouldn't be good either. There are animals kill other animals for food.

I am not going to be a food nazi for one thing and I am not going to judge other by the way they eat either. Everybody have to find what works the best for themselves and quit listening to Raw Food Celebrities to find out what is best for them. Look within and you will find your answers within.

Nobody is perfect.

[barose]

I agree with Craig and belleadonna.

On another note, I do feel physically better with agave than honey. I use honey very seldom versus agave because of the GI factor regardless if my agave is really raw or not. With honey, I always want MORE - I dont feel that way when I have something with agave.

[greenfeline]

I agree with Andy and RawVeganMom and whoever else is on the same page with me on this one. What it comes down to for me is treatment of animals as objects for our use. They do not make honey for us, they make it for themselves. Most people see animals as objects for our pleasure and whatever they produce we can take. As far as killing animals or bugs accidentally when farming that is not a valid argument to me because it is lacking intent. When you eat honey or meat your intent is to utilize those products for your unnecessary consumption.

[LoveLife]

Kitty...I would say it depends on why someone is vegan or veg...as for if u had your own cows and chickens they would eat their products...they say that normally becuz with factory farms (of course they do not use humane ways of collecting milk and eggs) after the animals are done being useful..ie. not producing enough for profit...they are then sent to slaughter just like animals used for their meat...also cows DO NOT have to be milked..they only are able to milk them in the first place becuz they are forced to become pregnant..and then their calf is taken away and we take/steal their milk...cows only produce milk becuz of having had a baby(I think they produce for about 12-13 months)..just like us...as for chickens..eggs are basically eating a liquid chicken...ALSO...for vegans who say they would use animal products if they owned said animals...they are thinking from only the ethical standpoint...when u look at the nutritional standpoint..which obviousely u already know from raw..animal products aren't good for us.....

Andypdx...I had never thought about using honey or any animal product for that matter as "stealing nicely"...that has made me look at some things in a whole different light..thank you:)

Craig..I agree that we shouldn't be food nazi's;) ..I have come to my own opinions and conclusions and I think everyone esle should and will too...I think as a vegan it is always better to answer questions when someone asks..not tell them how bad they are for eating a certain thing...yes eating a tomato is "killing" it..but everything must use something to survive..the point is tho..to use what u need and use what has the least affect on the planet (sustainability)...yes, carnivores eat other animals..but that is what they are made to do...u don't see lions going and stealing vegitation from monkeys just becuz they like the taste of it;) ...we should be eating what we were made to eat...humans just like to use what we want when we want...

[Ginger]

Wow great posts Andypdx! Really made me think.

[SchoolOfRAWk]

yes I think about that too, like where do we draw the line, you know? But, to me, there is a huge difference between inadvertently and purposefully eating animals or animal products. The fact is, honey bees are horribly mistreated and it is confusing that vegans (or anybody) just look the other way.

This is a good topic. For the record, all honey, raw or not, is loaded with pathogens. This is discussed by Robert Young, PhD, pleomorphic expert. I never used honey so going vegan was easy. Only upon going raw am I faced with it, and I do sometimes. But it bothers me. Plus, it's so awful for candida and just sickeningly goopy sweet - Ugh - agave is much better to me! I have heard so much stuff about honey, about how they are treated... I disagree with honey overall, but confess as a vegan to using it at times. I'd like to get away from it totally because ethically I do struggle with it. It's bee PUKE. That's so gross! Overall, the following statement rings most true to me:

"I agree with Andy and RawVeganMom and whoever else is on the same page with me on this one. What it comes down to for me is treatment of animals as objects for our use. They do not make honey for us, they make it for themselves. Most people see animals as objects for our pleasure and whatever they produce we can take. As far as killing animals or bugs accidentally when farming that is not a valid argument to me because it is lacking intent. When you eat honey or meat your intent is to utilize those products for your unnecessary consumption."

Regarding this:

""Then you might just as well quit eating. Chopping and eating up that poor tomato shouldn't be good either. There are animals kill other animals for food. "

I think it's awful and insensitive to compare cutting a blade of grass or some other non-parallel scenario to cutting the throat of a sentient, obviously tortured benevolent being. So totally disrespectful to life. Under that "logic", that's like saying to someone who's dog or child was just killed to "Get over it, because it's not like they don't eat corn, and so clearly they think killing is fine", etc. I mean, it's just so disrespectful to the animals....Have the people who feel this way watched Earthlings? I don't think so....


"What it really boils down too is that it is each persons business what they eat or don't eat. If you don't want to eat honey for ethical reasons, then don't. If you want to eat it and don't feel that it is a sin, then eat it. This arguement is kind of useless because it will never be solved."

To me, that is like saying that the north should not have cared how the south "boosted their economy" with slaves or we should have left Hitler to his "business". The same genocide, torture, abuse and slavery are going on. Is it okay because they don't speak English and now it's called "food" and not "economy"? Same thing. Ditto for Lynching. Should Ida B Wells just have left the whites to their "business" lynching innocent blacks? Some things are bigger than personal preference.

PLUS, a lot of people's food choices are ruining the earth big time for me and my family, too. They are using all the water to fuel their cancer-diets that IS NOT MORE THEIRS THAN MINE. That is why people do and should have a say, I feel. I mean, land, air and water supplies are running out, and within 50 years many say (at least major shortages then). HOW is that fair? HOW is it that some of us are not "allowed to comment" on other's "personal choices"? No, whether we wear slacks or a skirt that day is a personal choice. This is bigger than that.

[Shoshannah]

Well, if you want to take it to the extreme of extremes... cooking food kills enzymes, does it not? So being a RAW vegan is the kindest of all because it spares the life of the enzyme.

But whoops... we do eat the enzyme whose life we just saved and it goes to work for us, breaking down our food. Are we abusing the enzyme? Are we abusing the vitamins and minerals that we diligently save from cooking and then consume, putting them to work in our body?

Splitting hairs is no fun... I would much rather just enjoy my food and try to be as gentle as I can to the environment and the sentient beings living in it. Live and let live. I would never condone slaughtering an animal in any way, shape or form... but I can't worry about microbes and microcosms that co-exist with me.

By the way, I very, very rarely eat honey. I also rarely eat agave or any sweetener for that matter.

[Nurse in the Raw]

My husband was a beekeeper for years. He managed 27,000 hives. There is nothing unethical about extracting honey from a hive. Care is taken to ensure bees aren't injured in the process and beekeepers prevent disease from overtaking the hive and killing the bees. Without the beekeeper the honeybee could not survive and pollinate the fruit trees and flowers we enjoy so much.

Also, bees are insects, not animals and bees aren't eaten like animals are so I am not sure what the problem is with eating food that bee's store for later use.

[Nurse in the Raw]

This is a good topic. For the record, all honey, raw or not, is loaded with pathogens.

Honey is formed when bees gather nectar from flowers, regurgitate it into their honeycomb structures and fan it with their wings until most of the water in the nectar has evaporated. Their enzyme rich saliva turns the sucrose into glucose and fructose, which bind to the remaining water, leaving a cocktail in which bacteria cannot survive. Honey is also hostile to bacteria because it contains hydrogen peroxide created from glucose with the aid of bees' enzyme glucose oxidase. This is deadly to microbes including e.coli, salmonella, heliobacter pylori (the bacteria implicated in stomach ulcers) and antibiotic resistant bacteria including hospital super bug Methicillin-resistant staphylococcus (MRSA). The hydrogen peroxide contained in honey promotes protein digesting enzymes that dissolve dead tissue and stimulate growth of blood vessels which deliver oxygen, nutrients and fibroblasts, creating new connective tissue. Honey activates monocytes - cells which release growth factor that stimulate epithelial cells to regenerate and close wounds when applied topically.

http://bio.waikato.ac.nz/honey/

[RawChicky]

I appreciate everyone's opinions. To me, comparing eating and killing plants to eating animals is just ridiculous. Humans HAVE to eat to survive. They do not have to eat animals or any animal products. (especially today, when we have easy access to supplements if your diet is lacking.)

Personally, I can't support eating any food in which animals were used as slaves to produce. If an animal was "used" to produce the food for humans, I think that is wrong. I try not to be a "food nazi" especially to people who would never give a s#$% no matter what. (For example, somebody who hunts for fun). I do, however, make an effort to get my point across to people who claim to love animals. They seem like the most understanding and the most likely to make a change in their diet or lifestyle.

I agree with school of rawk that there is horrible torture and slavery going on today that most people just ignore because "animals were made to be eaten" (or other pathetic reasons.) Nobody, NOBODY, not even my meat-lovin dad would ever bit into a live (or dead) animal and just chomp away through bones, blood, and fur, and skin. It always has to be fried, grilled, seasoned or sauced, you know? To me this implies we are not meant to eat animals. The same goes for sucking on a cow or goats nipple! Gimme a break.

As far as honey goes, I honestly don't see why it is debatable at all. I listened to revvell's show and it did not change my mind that the honey is made for the bees by the bees and taking it is wrong. (And quite disgusting, considering it is bee vomit.) There are even dead bee parts in the unfiltered honey. you can't tell me that eating bee parts is debatable vegan, even if the bees were "already dead" or something like that.

But I agree, this discussion could go on forEVER and still nobody will exactly agree with anyone else. I was just wondering because I don't think bees should be disregarded when it comes to not eating animals or using animal products.

[Revvell]

I do believe everyone I interviewed said IF there are bee parts in the honey it's VERY rare. What is at the top are not parts.

Personally, I don't care if everyone here agrees with what I eat or don't eat. It's no one's business... and I'm sure no one here cares if "I" care what ya'll eat or don't eat.

As Byron Katie says, there's your business, there's "god's" (universe's/nature's) business and there's my business. What I eat will always be my business.

Revvell

[Nurse in the Raw]

How is it that we have a problem taking honey from bees but we will kill a cockroach or spider in a heartbeat:confused:

[RawChicky]

I do believe everyone I interviewed said IF there are bee parts in the honey it's VERY rare. What is at the top are not parts. Revvell

The first person you interveiwed said that there were bees parts in unfiltered honey. Of course, the guy who sold unfiltered honey said that it was rare.

[RawVegan4Health]

I've only recently made up my mind on this subject, and that is to use dates and date syrup. Problem solved. I made it, I know it's both raw and vegan. That's just me though.

[SchoolOfRAWk]

My husband was a beekeeper for years. He managed 27,000 hives. There is nothing unethical about extracting honey from a hive. Care is taken to ensure bees aren't injured in the process and beekeepers prevent disease from overtaking the hive and killing the bees. Without the beekeeper the honeybee could not survive and pollinate the fruit trees and flowers we enjoy so much.

Also, bees are insects, not animals and bees aren't eaten like animals are so I am not sure what the problem is with eating food that bee's store for later use.

You cannot say that no beekeeper is unethical. That has been proven false.
We need the bees out in nature. I am not sayng your HUSBAND did it unethically, but not all are like him. God did make bees free, though, for a reason. Controlling bees and bee production is kind of like playing God, though. And using them as little machines. On many bee farms, they do die.

[RawChicky]

How is it that we have a problem taking honey from bees but we will kill a cockroach or spider in a heartbeat:confused:

yes lots of people kill them, but I take them outside. :p But if there's a deadly spider on me, I'll kill it. To me that is different that going out and smashing dangerous spiders. If I was being attacked by a shark, I would fight it and try to protect myself. But I would never go out on a boat and kill a bunch of sharks. (or eat them or use them for anything.) So, I don't think that's a very valid argument.

[SchoolOfRAWk]

How is it that we have a problem taking honey from bees but we will kill a cockroach or spider in a heartbeat:confused:

Not all of us do. We remove the insect or just realize it's not harming me in the corner of my home, etc.

[SchoolOfRAWk]

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o46/ertarox/untitled.jpg

I still contest that when people's habits so drastically affect the entire world, it is the same as 2nd hand smoke being stopped in restaurants, etc. It kind of IS our business...

[SchoolOfRAWk]

I've only recently made up my mind on this subject, and that is to use dates and date syrup. Problem solved. I made it, I know it's both raw and vegan. That's just me though.

Great idea.
With agave, dates and raisins, it's so simple...

[Stina]

Anyone else read The Secret Life of Plants? Plants have feelings too! That's why so many native American traditions honor the plant spirits. When I'm out harvesting in my friend's garden, I'm "feeling" if it's okay to pluck a vegetable or fruit and giving thanks. Can anyone relate this to veganism without getting defensive and self-righteous? One of my vegan friends is careful to not leather products yet wears vegan shoes of petroleum by-products. petroleum products equal raping the earth. Sometimes you got to consider the bigger picture. My way of eating is not a cult to me.

[Craig]

I am still going to use honey, vegan or not.

[lafsalot]

Anyone else read The Secret Life of Plants? Plants have feelings too! That's why so many native American traditions honor the plant spirits. When I'm out harvesting in my friend's garden, I'm "feeling" if it's okay to pluck a vegetable or fruit and giving thanks. Can anyone relate this to veganism without getting defensive and self-righteous? One of my vegan friends is careful to not leather products yet wears vegan shoes of petroleum by-products. petroleum products equal raping the earth. Sometimes you got to consider the bigger picture. My way of eating is not a cult to me.

Beautifully written!! My hats off to you ~ Cathy

[andypdx]

How is it that we have a problem taking honey from bees but we will kill a cockroach or spider in a heartbeat:confused:
Who is this "we" that you speak of? :)

I'd take my own life before intentionally killing a spider or a cockroach. These creatures value their lives just as much as you or I value our own. There are humane (http://www.zoomed.com/html/bugbuddy.php) ways of getting these critters outside without stomping their lives out for all eternity.

[irishserra]

...particularly Veggie Lo Mein.

[Revvell]

Who is this "we" that you speak of? :)

I'd take my own life before intentionally killing a spider or a cockroach. These creatures value their lives just as much as you or I value our own. There are humane (http://www.zoomed.com/html/bugbuddy.php) ways of getting these critters outside without stomping their lives out for all eternity.

Unless, of course, they happen to naturally fall into the toilet and flush themselves. :eek:

[Eva]

Andy: The bug buddy looks cool. I bet my stepkids would get a kick out of it...

Of course, one of them loves to use the magnifying glass to fry bugs outside! :eek: And inside, if my dog sees a bug he eats it pretty quickly. So, on second thought, I might not get the bug buddy after all! We already have mother nature at work with the canine.

[Veganforlife]

Bug buddy huh?
Wonder if they have a human buddy? You know a bigger size. I can think of a few folks I could use one of them on!
::scratches head::

[Eva]

Lucy, you're killin' me! haha quite a picture in my head of grabbing my husband with a large plastic contraption and tossing him into the garden when he misbehaves. hahahaha :D :eek:

[SchoolOfRAWk]

Anyone else read The Secret Life of Plants? Plants have feelings too! That's why so many native American traditions honor the plant spirits. When I'm out harvesting in my friend's garden, I'm "feeling" if it's okay to pluck a vegetable or fruit and giving thanks. Can anyone relate this to veganism without getting defensive and self-righteous? One of my vegan friends is careful to not leather products yet wears vegan shoes of petroleum by-products. petroleum products equal raping the earth. Sometimes you got to consider the bigger picture. My way of eating is not a cult to me.


Plants do not have spinal cords, which is what is usually used to determine between whether they feel pain or not. There's no doubt the wind and rocks are alive, and I don't know a single raw foodist that abuses plants, etc. Vegetation is different. I don't know how people can be so tuned into plants feelings and totally disregard animals screaming in pain while being skinned alive? Leather is awful for the environment and the animals. Petroleum is not ideal either. Recycling often causes more pollution than the original waste it was considered. Nobody said to use petroleum, although I would say it's more ethical than directly killing another sentient being always. Almost anything is. We have hemp shoes and bamboo can be used for much. I can get biodegradable containers made of potato for food now. We have CHOICES is all we're saying here. The bigger picture to me is that animal industries are ruining the earth, there are going to be no plants to "feel" soon enough if people don't get off leather and other animal dependent (and abusive) products. That's the hard truth and it isn't "mine" per se because I wish it wasn't so myself. I don't think it's self-righteous or anything to bring this up, though. I'm glad you did. It's a good point to respect the earth and the blessings it gives. INdustrial farming can be violent, too. For sure. But I don't think these are parallel situations and is once again disrespectful to animals.

[SchoolOfRAWk]

Who is this "we" that you speak of? :)

I'd take my own life before intentionally killing a spider or a cockroach. These creatures value their lives just as much as you or I value our own. There are humane (http://www.zoomed.com/html/bugbuddy.php) ways of getting these critters outside without stomping their lives out for all eternity.

Andy, you are just AWESOME!!!!!!!

[barose]

Who is this "we" that you speak of? :)

I'd take my own life before intentionally killing a spider or a cockroach. These creatures value their lives just as much as you or I value our own. There are humane (http://www.zoomed.com/html/bugbuddy.php) ways of getting these critters outside without stomping their lives out for all eternity.

I guess I'm going to burn in hell because I killed probably hundreds of spiders in my lifetime. I am severly arachnophobic and if its between them living and me having a panic attack, pissing on myself, vomiting, running my car off the road,...well I don’t have to say no more.

[Rawkinlocs]

Yeah, that bug buddy is a cute little deal - but wondering what one would use if they had an infestation of bugs in their home such as cockroaches or termites, etc. :confused: I can see the buddy used for those one or few unwelcome visitors but not a completely infested home where they're crawling everywhere in drolls. So what would a vegan do under those circumstances?


Also, I have a question that's been kinda bugging me (no pun intended) since reading all of the views in this discussion (which has been very enlightening, btw)

Now, I am asking this question as Cherie and not as Rawkinlocs - the moderator so bear with me here.

Is it frowned upon for ANY species to kill another species for food or just humans? If not, why? If so, why? What makes a human who may live in a part of the world where it is not feasible to grow much plant life or fruit trees and "has" to hunt and kill animals for survival any different than any other carnivorous or ominvorious species/animal who hunts and tears apart other animals for food and survival?

I understand and know that there are many inhumane practices done for the mass-production of meat, certain clothing, and other things that humans use and so I wonder if THAT, alone is the wrong-doing or is it the killing and eating of an animal, period. I know that even OT biblically speaking, there was a certain way the animals had to be slain or else it was considered unclean, etc. so there ARE worse ways (not sure if ANY form of killing an animal by humans or other animals would be considered humane or gentle by the animal being killed) for an animal to die and I know that what is done in factory-farms is one of those "worse ways".

But I guess I'm just wondering, NOT because I want to justify that it's okay to eat meat or other animal products such as dairy but because I'm just curious as to the view point in this respect - what is the difference between one animal (humans) killing another animal for food and other animals (non-human) who kill for food and is it mainly about the inhumane way in which the animals are treated by humans or is it ANY form of killing/eating them (farming and raising one's own for one's own family for example)?

I know this is off topic of the bees and honey but the discussion has kinda taken that turn - delving more into why some are compelled to be vegan and not want ANY harm to come to animals/creatures at all.

Again, not asking this for debate purposes but this is something that I've internally pondered about for a long time. I personally don't want to eat meat or to justify it, but I just don't really know if I believe that it's totally, utterly and completely WRONG for a human to eat an animal or animal product when we know that many creatures were created to be food for other creatures (namely speaking of the truly carnivorous animals out there who survive off of eating meat. I know I'm not a true carnivore 'cause if I were, I'd see an animal and think, "Mmmm...DINNER" and not, "Awwww, how cute". But, I guess I'm just curious and want to hear your thoughts on what's been in my mind for a while now about this whole issue.

[barose]

Rawk...oops I mean Cherrie :D Your question reminds me of the Inuit people where being a "raw vegan" = death.

[Revvell]

Again, not asking this for debate purposes ...

HAHAHAHAHAHA! You may NOT be but.... :p

[Rawkinlocs]

HAHAHAHAHAHA! You may NOT be but.... :p

Yeah, I know...I know... :rolleyes: :) I'm really just genuinely interested in hearing responses though. I'm not asking to argue about it or to prove any point, etc. I've always wanted to ask this question here and I think now is the time.

[RawVegan4Health]

Humans have the capacity to not only understand what they are doing may be wrong, but also have every capability and opportunity to not eat animals or animal products. The only reason they keep doing so is <insert an excuse here>. Oh, and no, I am not an activist kind of vegan. Heck, until recently I was eating honey and considered myself vegan then too.

[Rawkinlocs]

Rawk...oops I mean Cherrie :D Your question reminds me of the Inuit people where being a "raw vegan" = death.

I've never heard of that Barose. Cute with the name switch-up! :)

[tinystrawberry]

i eat honey. i have my own bees, and i love them. i treat them with respect and try not to squish them. i also do not take all of the honey, i think leave enough for them. gffff

[SchoolOfRAWk]

Rawk...oops I mean Cherrie :D Your question reminds me of the Inuit people where being a "raw vegan" = death.

They also only live until 40, so apparently being an Inuit = early death. Basically, people really aren't supposed to be living there to begin with is my take on the issue.

[Rawkinlocs]

Humans have the capacity to not only understand what they are doing may be wrong, but also have every capability and opportunity to not eat animals or animal products. The only reason they keep doing so is <insert an excuse here>. Oh, and no, I am not an activist kind of vegan. Heck, until recently I was eating honey and considered myself vegan then too.

So you're saying that when other animals do it, it's wrong...they just don't know it?

[barose]

I've never heard of that Barose. Cute with the name switch-up! :)

Well, if you were living on the North Pole, what can you grow? ;)

[irishserra]

Well, as reasoning and logic sets us apart from other species, I would say that we can't really frown upon other animal species killing another for food. It's instinct.

In our case, we were given the ability to reason and use logic and be creative in finding our food.

[RawChicky]

So you're saying that when other animals do it, it's wrong...they just don't know it?

It's not wrong for carnivores to eat meat. I don't believe we are carnivores, nor omnivores. If we were, we would instinctually want to eat raw meat. That's my take on it at least.

[RawVegan4Health]

So you're saying that when other animals do it, it's wrong...they just don't know it?Not at all. When a wolf eats another animal, it is not doing anything wrong. It is carnivorous. Some animals are omnivorous and REQUIRE eating other animals to survive. Humans do not. I am suggesting however, that perhaps when humans do it we can consider it wrong because it is unnecessary. I think that is one reason why people become vegetarian or vegan, raw vegan. Because they think it is wrong.

[bodaflower]

Also, we are not naturally equipped to hunt down an animal, attack and kill it with our bare hands, which we were naturally given, and tear into it. We also have a psychological opposition to it..the fact that we need tools and fire to eat an animal says it right there

I didn't read this whole thread, but when it says Raw Vegan, does that mean I'm not supposed to talk about raw dairy products..? Just, you know, making sure :o

Also, the Secret Life of Plants is really good, as is Secrets of the Soil (is anybody else interested in the methods described in this book? I forget what it's called..)

[RawVegan4Health]

Well, as reasoning and logic sets us apart from other species, I would say that we can't really frown upon other animal species killing another for food. It's instinct.

In our case, we were given the ability to reason and use logic and be creative in finding our food.
Other animals reason and use logic. Dolphins and apes ar easy to point out. Who can forget the squirrels that navigate the complex contraptions to get food?

[SchoolOfRAWk]

Is it frowned upon for ANY species to kill another species for food or just humans? If not, why? If so, why? What makes a human who may live in a part of the world where it is not feasible to grow much plant life or fruit trees and "has" to hunt and kill animals for survival any different than any other carnivorous or ominvorious species/animal who hunts and tears apart other animals for food and survival?

Great question, "Cherie"!

No, other species that are natural carnivores who eat other animals go for the sick and the old (or the dumb - LOL). This is talked about in a beautiful book called Mutant Message Down Under, where a doctor from St. Louis went on a "walkabout" through Australia's Outback with an aboriginal, indigenous tribe. Still, if a snake is in nature and captures and eats a rabbit, that rabbit had every sensory ability to either escape or to not be in that place at that time, etc. This is totally different to how people "feed" their "pet snakes", where the rabbit is helpless. I'll say as an aside that I have no idea why shows where animals do kill other animals to eat are so "entertaining" to people - it is sooo "Faces Of Death" for people to be so "into" watching other animals die.

But of course not. If in a plane crash, I'd eat another person if I had to and they were dead already, etc. But these "instances" make up .01&#37; of the actual animal-eating in this world.

Humans grow animals as food. No other species does this, even those that eat animals. That is just fundamentally unnatural, on many accounts (i.e. we are not carnivores, for one).

[rawzeit]

Right and wrong are human concepts, not animal concepts. So anything an animal does is neither right or wrong, it just is. Unless you look at it from a human perspective. Then it's right or wrong based on the human doing the judging. :)

[SchoolOfRAWk]

Also, we are not naturally equipped to hunt down an animal, attack and kill it with our bare hands, which we were naturally given, and tear into it. We also have a psychological opposition to it..the fact that we need tools and fire to eat an animal says it right there

I didn't read this whole thread, but when it says Raw Vegan, does that mean I'm not supposed to talk about raw dairy products..? Just, you know, making sure :o

Also, the Secret Life of Plants is really good, as is Secrets of the Soil (is anybody else interested in the methods described in this book? I forget what it's called..)

Actually no, raw dairy is still considered unhealthy and not recommended on the healing raw vegan diet.

It 's true, we are not equipped to eat animals the way people do in nature. In nature, funny how we are limited to foraging and scavenging raw vegan plant foods. Hmmm!

[SchoolOfRAWk]

If people followed universal laws like animals in terms of diet (eating within their natural diet) then we wouldn't be in the mess humanity is in.

[Nappilocs]

I'm curious about why some people I've seen lately saying that Agave is not RAW?...I am looking at my bottle of Agave...and this is what mine says..

Brand: The Raw Choice
On the back: The Raw Choice Raw Organic Agave nectar is certified for its purity and is specially produced without heat to preserve its vitamins and minerals while maximizing flavor.

So I'm just wondering if people have found out that it is a lie?

Sorry I didn't mean to high-jack this thread...I've just noticed this a lot lately...

I also would love to see that link about honey...I was a Vegan b4 I started Raw..but I did eat honey..only becuz I hadn't looked up enough information about honey yet...and for awhile I thought it was just one of those debateable things..like still watching movies or taking pictures even tho film is not vegan...and stuff like that....But I am very interested in some true facts about the wellfare of bees...also I had never heard that cellphone use killed bees?...how does it do that?

I was thinking the same thing, I purchased some Raw Agave from the farmers market on yesterday

[bodaflower]

Actually no, raw dairy is still considered unhealthy and not recommended on the healing raw vegan diet.

It 's true, we are not equipped to eat animals the way people do in nature. In nature, funny how we are limited to foraging and scavenging raw vegan plant foods. Hmmm!

soo.....that didn't really answer my question :p can i still talk about it? even though it's not vegan

[bodaflower]

If people followed universal laws like animals in terms of diet (eating within their natural diet) then we wouldn't be in the mess humanity is in.

Yes, definitely, I think about this often. I wish I could just put a giant salad on everyone's table and have them love it

[SchoolOfRAWk]

Not at all. When a wolf eats another animal, it is not doing anything wrong. It is carnivorous. Some animals are omnivorous and REQUIRE eating other animals to survive. Humans do not. I am suggesting however, that perhaps when humans do it we can consider it wrong because it is unnecessary. I think that is one reason why people become vegetarian or vegan, raw vegan. Because they think it is wrong.

It is also killing our water, air and land beyond reparation. The entire human race is eating itself out of house and home, quite literally!!!


It is not just unnecessary, it is unsustainable.

It is not just unsustainable, it is so barbaric and inhumane. Even a glass of milk!

It is not just barbaric and inhumane, it is killing our fellow humans!!

It is not just killing our fellow humans, it is killing other species in entirety.

When will people learn? When they learn they can't eat money, just as the native americans predicted.

[SchoolOfRAWk]

soo.....that didn't really answer my question :p can i still talk about it? even though it's not vegan

Usually, discussions about raw dairy and raw meat are shut down quickly on this board as it is Alissa's board and she promotes a raw vegan diet due to the serious health ramifications of eating animals alone. So it's not a "vegan police" type thing, it's to keep the board focused on the healing raw foods diet that works, that 99&#37; of the authors write about, so as not to confuse newcomers, etc. Most are not receptive to the idea of raw animal products either, because people are pretty educated on this board about their effects. So, it isn't tolerated by the moderators, no. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't happy about that, though. You can talk about it if you talk about how awful they are, basically. :D

[Rawkinlocs]

Bodaflower, milk is one of the "no-nos" on this forum ;)

Thanks for the replies to my question so far all! :)

[SchoolOfRAWk]

Bodaflower, milk is one of the "no-nos" on this forum ;)

Thanks for the replies to my question so far all! :)

Thanks for the great question. :-) Very well put!

[Sunshine9]

When I observe animals in nature, it does not seem humane whatsoever. Anyone else watch "Planet Earth"? When the animals would hunt, they went for whatever they could get. It made me sad when they would succeed and kill something, and yet it brought me joy when I saw that baby cubs would be able to survive now because of the dead animal. It's the circle of life.

I totally agree with Revvell - what i eat is my business. I don't with with strict mental constrictions as to what is "truly natural."

I'm a happy beegan :)

[SchoolOfRAWk]

I agree it's bloody and gorey on tv, but it is still different. I don't know why people like watching that stuff. The only thing unnatural is people sitting in their living rooms, riveted by this scene, imho. Otherwise, I can only ask me if MY actions are causing unnecessary suffering and cruelty. If I was a carnivore, I would watch that and DROOL. That is how we know we are not carnivores. ;)

[RawChicky]

Otherwise, I can only ask me if MY actions are causing unnecessary suffering and cruelty. If I was a carnivore, I would watch that and DROOL. That is how we know we are not carnivores. ;)

That's what I've been trying to say!!! It makes me want to puke or cry, not eat!

[bodaflower]

Wellll then..I talked about it in my blog

I guess I'll just limit my discussion about it

[Rawkinlocs]

That's what I've been trying to say!!! It makes me want to puke or cry, not eat!

Yeah, I think that's one of the best points ever. True carnivores don't have to clean it, season it, grill/fry/bake/or fricassee it...they just eat it! I definitely get no mouth-watering effect from raw meat and certainly not from a ripped up, bloody animal carcase :eek: I, too, feel badly when I watch a movie or something and there is a scene where a lion or tiger is chasing a dear or something...I'm always routing for the prey to get away! But I also know, they DO gotta eat...but I don't wanna see it!

[SchoolOfRAWk]

Yeah, Harvey Diamond talks about this in his Fit For Lifes, how we would drool and salivate when we saw roadkill, and think "Score!!!" instead of be all pukey over it when it's there, decomposing.

My old dog ate rabbits. Well, just the heads. And muskrats. I hope my future dogs too, I just don't want to watch and fear worms and stuff because of how tainted everything is, even rabbits and stuff eat pesticides and are exposed to weird viruses, etc.

[StarFire]

great discussion.. might I add...

what about the feelings plants have?? Isn't it true that there have been studies where you yell at one plant and play nasty music (what ever that might be...) and the plant will be stunted and not healthy ...

yu can take another plant and play wonderful soothing music and talk nice to it and give it loving vibes and that plant will flourish and be strong, vibrant, lush and healthy...

In science class we also studied this experiement where the plant was somehow hooked up to electrodes - or some thing that could get some kind of a reading off of it -

when they chopped up another plant next to it - the plant sent off high spikes on this graph thing - it was as though it was feeling the pain of the plant being chopped up next to it... ??

so... are we torturing plants when we're eating them live...chewing the very vibrant life out of them... slowly yumming our way through every meal??

I do not mean to sound trite... but seriously this has bothered me .... where do we draw the line? How can we eat plants without hurting them too??? They cannot speak up for themselves - they cannot run - they cannot cringe away from our grasp...

Hawaiians also honor the plant spirits and the spirits of the earth... you never pick anything without first asking permission....

just my 2 cents!! ;)

[SchoolOfRAWk]

great discussion.. might I add...

what about the feelings plants have?? Isn't it true that there have been studies where you yell at one plant and play nasty music (what ever that might be...) and the plant will be stunted and not healthy ...

yu can take another plant and play wonderful soothing music and talk nice to it and give it loving vibes and that plant will flourish and be strong, vibrant, lush and healthy...

In science class we also studied this experiement where the plant was somehow hooked up to electrodes - or some thing that could get some kind of a reading off of it -

when they chopped up another plant next to it - the plant sent off high spikes on this graph thing - it was as though it was feeling the pain of the plant being chopped up next to it... ??

so... are we torturing plants when we're eating them live...chewing the very vibrant life out of them... slowly yumming our way through every meal??

I do not mean to sound trite... but seriously this has bothered me .... where do we draw the line? How can we eat plants without hurting them too??? They cannot speak up for themselves - they cannot run - they cannot cringe away from our grasp...

Hawaiians also honor the plant spirits and the spirits of the earth... you never pick anything without first asking permission....

just my 2 cents!! ;)

Well, SOME Hawaiians, like yourself, do. My friend is from there and his favorite thing to do is hunt wild pigs with a knife. So, not exactly Mr. Sensitive in that department. LOL!

BUT the same is true of water, which is alive..... Do we all dehydrate? It response energetically, too, but honestly, do water and vegetables have nervous systems? That is the scientific definition between what feels pain and what doesn't. For example, fish feel massiving pain. That is why fishing is so violent (and sooo bad on our environment).

[dreamrawalwz]

Also, bees are insects, not animals and bees aren't eaten like animals are so I am not sure what the problem is with eating food that bee's store for later use.

I'm sorry, but I read through the entire thread and this made me gasp, literally. Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't any living and breathing being an animal? An inscect is an animal is it not? Humans are animals so....maybe I'm confused on that part??

I don't think veganism is JUST about ethical, but also health reasons. Honey is not as good as "they" say. I've heard from "them" that milk is good, honey is good, and now grapefruits are bad. I don't listen to "them" anymore. Oh, bee hives (the boxes i mean) are NOT natural. They are MAN made specifically to cultivate the honey, not have the bees just because. Who goes to a REAL bee hive to get honey besides bears?

As for rawkinlocs question: animals that kill other animals are either omnivores or carnivores. Humans are not. We are not made to consume any animal products. Also as stated, animals dont know the difference between right and wrong. It's what they have to do to survive. We as humans don't. It is effecting our environment, plant, and species as a whole.

Ok, so some say plants have feelings and feel pain. I agree they have feelings and react to interaction, voice, music, light/dark, etc. Humans must eat to survive. Would you rather "kill" a plant which still containes live enzymes to help energize and put life into you or would you rather kill an animal that you can hear and see in their eyes the fear before or while they're dying and then consume the dead flesh that doesn't provide many nutrients and causes disease and death. The plants you can eat right away, the animal you have to as others said, fry, bake, bread, season, etc. to consume. I know no one on the board would pick the dead animal to eat so what's left? The life force. The seeds and plants that give life. Live = life and dead = death. Maybe I'm blabbing here lol....I'll stop.

[the_lab_rat]

Cherie,
I've asked myself that question too many times! Personally, I think humans are simply not meant to be carnivores, whereas some other animals are. If we were meant to eat meat, we'd go out and hunt (instead of eating animals bred and raised in pens), kill the animal ourselves (not rely on Jim-Bob the slaughterhouse worker to do it for us conveniently out of sight and out of mind), and eat the meat raw (no barbeques or Lean Mean Grillin' Machines involved. But no one does that. If we did eat raw meat (assuming we managed to catch the animal at all) we'd probably get very very sick. Physically, we can live perfectly healthily on a plant-based diet. Additionally, we have the capacity to understand the harm done to animals and the fact that they feel pain and fear. Even if we desire to eat meat, we're intelligent enough (well, sometimes I wonder...) to think of other foods to substitute. Finally, I don't think a person could live very long if all they ever ate was meat; however, we can live if we do not eat meat. That alone convinces me humans aren't meant to eat other animals.



What I eat will always be my business.

What about people who eat beef? Cows are, if I remember correctly, the largest source of methane on the planet, and countless acres of land have been devastated to make room for cow farms. It is not merely someone's own business when the food they eat contributes to the destruction of the environment, the clear-cutting of forests, and the pollution of the atmosphere. That's the extreme example, of course, and probably doesn't apply to you. Nevertheless, the smaller-scale cases, such as the suffering or exploitation of bees, are still valid concerns to some people. When what you eat does measurable harm to other living creatures, it becomes other peoples' business as well. In fact, it's not even a matter of "business;" the suffering of another creature should never be discounted as merely "business."

[Nurse in the Raw]

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't any living and breathing being an animal? An insect is an animal is it not? Humans are animals so....maybe I'm confused on that part??

Insects are insects, mammals are mammals, animals are animals and humans are human. Not everything created by God is considered an animal. Science also separates them accordingly. For example:

All insects must have:

* three body parts - a head, thorax, and abdomen
* six jointed legs
* two antennae to sense the world around them
* an exoskeleton (outside skeleton)

If all four of these things are not true, then they can't be called an insect! Spiders are not insects because they have eight legs and don't have three body parts. Centipedes and millipedes have way too many legs to be called insects! Most insects have one or two pairs of wings, but wings aren't necessary to be classified as an insect. It gets complicated so I will stop here.

[dreamrawalwz]

but humans are a species in the animal kingdom. I understand how science "classifies" insects, but they're still living breathing creatures that deserve just as much respect as you give your neighbor, friend, relative, or even stranger. Humans are animals, reptiles are animals, amphibians are animals, mammals are animals, birds are animals, what would make an insect NOT an animal? Just curious....

[donnaw74]

Insects are insects, mammals are mammals, animals are animals and humans are human. Not everything created by God is considered an animal. Science also separates them accordingly. For example:

All insects must have:

* three body parts - a head, thorax, and abdomen
* six jointed legs
* two antennae to sense the world around them
* an exoskeleton (outside skeleton)

If all four of these things are not true, then they can't be called an insect! Spiders are not insects because they have eight legs and don't have three body parts. Centipedes and millipedes have way too many legs to be called insects! Most insects have one or two pairs of wings, but wings aren't necessary to be classified as an insect. It gets complicated so I will stop here.

:eek: I am sorry to say that it seems you are a bit confused by what an animal is. Yes, an insect is an insect and a mammal is a mammal, etc. But insects, spiders, scorpions, fish, toads, clams, and so on ALL fall under the umbrella of ANIMAL.

Life is scientifically classified in a hierarchical system: Species, Genus, Family, Order, Class, Phylum, Kingdom, Domain, Life. Animals are classified in the kingdom Animalia. All insects are in the kingdom animalia. They are further distinguished as phylum: anthropoda, class: insecta. Again, mammals are in the kingdom: animalia, phylum: chordata, class: mammalia. Humans are mammals, therefore animals as well.

Here is a great website that goes into detail about the whole thing:
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/index.html

The point is, bees are most definitely animals. :)

[kiwiLOVE]

Gosh! Am I just the ONLY one looking at this forum with surprise?
I can't believe what some people are saying!

I personally CANNOT see how someone would equate an
insect with a human being or see their own life equal to a roaches!

A roach or bee or spider can't ease a child's tears or help an elderly cross the street or give food to hungry families in 3rd world countries, but humans CAN.

WHAT ARE SOME OF YOU GUYS SAYING!?!?!?

[donnaw74]

Gosh! Am I just the ONLY one looking at this forum with surprise?
I can't believe what some people are saying!

I personally CANNOT see how someone would equate an
insect with a human being or see their own life equal to a roaches!

A roach or bee or spider can't ease a child's tears or help an elderly cross the street or give food to hungry families in 3rd world countries, but humans CAN.

WHAT ARE SOME OF YOU GUYS SAYING!?!?!?

Yes... and a Human has the consciousness and the compassion to not intentionally kill, use, or harm other living creatures. That is all anyone is saying.

[RawChicky]

Gosh! Am I just the ONLY one looking at this forum with surprise?
I can't believe what some people are saying!

I personally CANNOT see how someone would equate an
insect with a human being or see their own life equal to a roaches!

A roach or bee or spider can't ease a child's tears or help an elderly cross the street or give food to hungry families in 3rd world countries, but humans CAN.

WHAT ARE SOME OF YOU GUYS SAYING!?!?!?

Bees and spiders also don't rape people, torture others, destroy the land, etc. Just because humans CAN do those things does NOT make them "Better" than any other animal. Just more...developed.

For example: A baby can't help third world countries or walk an elderly person across the road either, but we treat them and they deserve just as much respect as someone who can.

You see?

[barose]

I guess I'm not compassionate since I kill spiders.

[dahlila]

Gosh! Am I just the ONLY one looking at this forum with surprise?
I can't believe what some people are saying!

I personally CANNOT see how someone would equate an
insect with a human being or see their own life equal to a roaches!

A roach or bee or spider can't ease a child's tears or help an elderly cross the street or give food to hungry families in 3rd world countries, but humans CAN.

WHAT ARE SOME OF YOU GUYS SAYING!?!?!?

I think we are all working within ever-changing frameworks and idiosyncratic ways of viewing life and its worth or lack thereof.

Most westerns religious frameworks are centered around the notion of hierarchy of worth.... Humans are the highest, then the various species of animals, then such animals as insects, etc, etc
i.e.- the 'great chain of being'.

Some other paradigms such as those of some indigenous cultures and eastern religious frameworks believe that all sentient beings are equal in consciousness and worth and should all be treated equally with respect.

Since most of us on this board (i'm assuming) were raised with this western framework of viewing the world and decided to consciously dispel it, consciously accept it, or are unconsciously still influenced by it.... therefore, there exists a variety of viewpoints on this topic.

This thread has been quite enlightening and I am thankful for the healthy debate and viewpoints brought up. I know for myself, my views are still influenced by my upbringing, the studies I have done since, and many other facts and are constantly evolving...

[dreamrawalwz]

:eek: I am sorry to say that it seems you are a bit confused by what an animal is. Yes, an insect is an insect and a mammal is a mammal, etc. But insects, spiders, scorpions, fish, toads, clams, and so on ALL fall under the umbrella of ANIMAL.

Life is scientifically classified in a hierarchical system: Species, Genus, Family, Order, Class, Phylum, Kingdom, Domain, Life. Animals are classified in the kingdom Animalia. All insects are in the kingdom animalia. They are further distinguished as phylum: anthropoda, class: insecta. Again, mammals are in the kingdom: animalia, phylum: chordata, class: mammalia. Humans are mammals, therefore animals as well.

Here is a great website that goes into detail about the whole thing:
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/index.html

The point is, bees are most definitely animals. :)

I was wondering when someone would come agree wtih me....

[dreamrawalwz]

Gosh! Am I just the ONLY one looking at this forum with surprise?
I can't believe what some people are saying!

I personally CANNOT see how someone would equate an
insect with a human being or see their own life equal to a roaches!

A roach or bee or spider can't ease a child's tears or help an elderly cross the street or give food to hungry families in 3rd world countries, but humans CAN.

WHAT ARE SOME OF YOU GUYS SAYING!?!?!?

I am looking at this thread in surprise as well, but wondering what those thinking that insects or any other animal for that fact does NOT deserve the respect any other living BEING, humans included, deserves. Mother animals in any species takes care of its young and has the capacity to care. They wouldn't cry out when seperated from their young if they did not care.

Sometimes, ok many times more and more, I believe just because humans have made more "advancements" and have more capability tahn animals, does NOT mean we are smarter. All other animals at least eat what their intended to eat from nature ;) We are out there letting our species live longer only to live miserable lives. Pretty stupid in my opinon! Sometimes animals are smater than us I think!! We should follow their example. Maybe I sound crazy, oh well!

[barose]

With all the wars, homicides, and other acts of violence against fellow humans happening today, why do you think this should be of top priority? If one man can respect another man's right to life, do you really expect him to respect the life of a roach?

[andypdx]

Gosh! Am I just the ONLY one looking at this forum with surprise?
I can't believe what some people are saying!

I personally CANNOT see how someone would equate an
insect with a human being or see their own life equal to a roaches!

A roach or bee or spider can't ease a child's tears or help an elderly cross the street or give food to hungry families in 3rd world countries, but humans CAN.

WHAT ARE SOME OF YOU GUYS SAYING!?!?!?
We are simply saying that it is painfully EASY to afford simple considerations to creatures, even though they may be different from us.

And why not equate a roach's life with my own? Please try to think of one intrinsic quality that makes ME more worthy of life than a cockroach or spider or bee.

[dreamrawalwz]

With all the wars, homicides, and other acts of violence against fellow humans happening today, why do you think this should be of top priority?

I don't think it is, but it's more of an individual act that any human can deliberately avoid. Wars (i don't know much about politics) are more like...being ordered by one head person to do this. I agree wars, homicides, etc. should be looked at, but at the same time we can all chose not to harm an animal. This is coming out odd. Other violent acts can also be avoided as well, but eh....it's not coming out how I want. Sorry. I understand what you mean though...

[barose]

I understand what you mean too...I just dont have the same type of passion in this area. There seems to be too many other things in this world to worry about.

[SchoolOfRAWk]

With all the wars, homicides, and other acts of violence against fellow humans happening today, why do you think this should be of top priority? If one man can respect another man's right to life, do you really expect him to respect the life of a roach?

Honestly, a lot of the people in this world committing acts of violence are EATING violence and terror and fear. Just as our emotions are recorded in receptors in our cells (psychoneuroimmunology is the hot shot term for this), the same is true for animals. That is why people will say free-range grass fed cows "taste so much better". It also makes people acidic, which means aggro and short and angry and all that ugly stuff.

It's all one and the same, Barose. But if 3 guys in Jersey shot and killed people last night while a woman was being raped in Houston, does that mean I should choose to cause misery and suffering with my personal decisions, or that it makes it any less cruel and unnecessary? That's all.

I don't know any vegan that thinks it's okay to murder people, just not chickens. But I will say that human adults have choices. Just like when people are "extra" horrified when it's babies or puppies being abused, knowing how helpless and vulnerable they are (versus two grown men who can have the good sense to sober up and not get in a knife fight), it is that much more awful when it's a docile cow, too.

I hope that makes sense.

[Kitty]

Thank you every body for answering my question. This thread is very thought provoking and I have a lot of thinking to do before I come up with my own conclusions. But I am seeing such great points made about all animals being sentient beings and using them for any means is wrong.

And I do think that a carnivore eating another animal is different. Like everyone said, we CAN survive without meat, I suppose a carnivore couldn't.

[barose]

School, I think I get what you're saying (though I have to digest it). I think my disconnection to nature as a whole has kept me out of touch as to how insects or even animals feel---though I did make an effort to buy more humane animal products as a whole.

To me, killing a spider is not choosing out of malice or poor intentions, its purely for self-protection; even if there is no physical danger (and there never is), just for my own mental and emotional state of mind. I would never intentionally kill out of sport; though I know some people will never see it that way no matter what.

[bodaflower]

great discussion.. might I add...

what about the feelings plants have?? Isn't it true that there have been studies where you yell at one plant and play nasty music (what ever that might be...) and the plant will be stunted and not healthy ...

yu can take another plant and play wonderful soothing music and talk nice to it and give it loving vibes and that plant will flourish and be strong, vibrant, lush and healthy...

In science class we also studied this experiement where the plant was somehow hooked up to electrodes - or some thing that could get some kind of a reading off of it -

when they chopped up another plant next to it - the plant sent off high spikes on this graph thing - it was as though it was feeling the pain of the plant being chopped up next to it... ??

so... are we torturing plants when we're eating them live...chewing the very vibrant life out of them... slowly yumming our way through every meal??

I do not mean to sound trite... but seriously this has bothered me .... where do we draw the line? How can we eat plants without hurting them too??? They cannot speak up for themselves - they cannot run - they cannot cringe away from our grasp...

Hawaiians also honor the plant spirits and the spirits of the earth... you never pick anything without first asking permission....

just my 2 cents!! ;)


Have you read The Secret Life of Plants?

I do believe that plants are very sensitive and receptive to these things...but I also believe (even though I don't have any proof from the plant, this is what makes sense to me) that in most cases a plant, especially if it is particularly appealing to the sense of taste/smell, would prefer to be eaten and turned into something higher than just rotting back in to the ground. As for fruit, it's as though they are making us eat them, tempting us, by being so sweet and juicy and appealing, if they weren't they would not get their seeds spread as well and they wouldn't be able to reproduce like they do..I really recommend The Botany of Desire

But yes I believe that plants are very responsive and sensitive and that we should treat them with nothing but the utmost respect because they are tuned into a much higher and stronger vibration than we can conceive...the plant vibration
:)

[kiwiLOVE]

And why not equate a roach's life with my own? Please try to think of one intrinsic quality that makes ME more worthy of life than a cockroach or spider or bee.


I don't know if that's a statement of humility or a low self-esteem... okay, just kidding. :D

[bodaflower]

I think of myself as being made up as the same exact substance (which would be God) as a cockroach or walnut tree or water lily

They are just purer forms of life...I am life but I also have to deal with conciousness (I didn't spell that right), that's the only way that I am different..my mind is more complex

[the_lab_rat]

With all the wars, homicides, and other acts of violence against fellow humans happening today, why do you think this should be of top priority? If one man can respect another man's right to life, do you really expect him to respect the life of a roach?

I think all the wars and violence today are even more of a reason to make a difference and live peacefully and kindly in whatever small ways we can :)

[kiwiLOVE]

Bees and spiders also don't rape people, torture others, destroy the land, etc. Just because humans CAN do those things does NOT make them "Better" than any other animal. Just more...developed.

For example: A baby can't help third world countries or walk an elderly person across the road either, but we treat them and they deserve just as much respect as someone who can.

You see?


I see what you're saying... and yes, we do respect babies (eventhough they can't help in 3rd world countries and so on) because their life is too precious. Would you say your child's life is worth a bug's?
And yes, they (animals) don't rape/destroy land... but they do kill each other and humans and they do torture. Killer whales are known to "play" with their food before eating it!

I believe that humans are better than any other animal. Although, that does not give us the right to look down upon them or torture them. Humans have the ability to conceive ideas and create what they see in their minds. Humans have the ability to influence the world and change history...whether it be for good or bad.

Until I see an animal create what humans have created (buildings, cars, cell-phones) then I'll reconsider my thoughts.

And no one say "well cars damage the air and buildings take up land" unless you're someone that lives in the forest and has no association with things that humans have created cus you're using them to improve your life.

We (as humans) have taken ourselves out of caves and created cities and nations- while rabbits are still living in their holes. By no means am I saying that it's okay to treat animals with cruelty because of this. But another thing is, I became a raw foodie not because of animals but because of health. If I was in the jungle and hungry I wouldn't think twice about killing an animal for food. Because the animal wouldn't think twice about killing ME for food.

People are justifying that animals can kill animals because they don't know right from wrong and that humans should not kill animals because we do.
So basically we have a conscience and can control our actions while animals can't... I think that makes us "better".

[Stina]

When my friends and I would be debating deep philosophical issues (while drinking and stoning, mind you.....), I'd pose this dilema. You have to choose between saving the life of your loyal, wonderful dog or a repulsive, hardened criminal/ child molestor/predatory human. What do you choose? And what does this have to do with honey!

[kiwiLOVE]

You have to choose between saving the life of your loyal, wonderful dog or a repulsive, hardened criminal/ child molestor/predatory human. What do you choose? And what does this have to do with honey!

OoOoOH! Good question! o.O
Okay... I would choose the dog.
Basically- when I use the term "human" I'm referring to a child or moral adult...

[Stina]

I'll be at odds with most of the people on this board. I'm morally obligated to choose the human. I have some understanding of the human soul being less innocent than animals and being tested on this plane. That's why we have a choice about killing and animals don't.

[kiwiLOVE]

I'll be at odds with most of the people on this board. I'm morally obligated to choose the human. I have some understanding of the human soul being less innocent than animals and being tested on this plane. That's why we have a choice about killing and animals don't.

What do you mean by "being tested on this plane" ? Curious...

[SchoolOfRAWk]

When my friends and I would be debating deep philosophical issues (while drinking and stoning, mind you.....), I'd pose this dilema. You have to choose between saving the life of your loyal, wonderful dog or a repulsive, hardened criminal/ child molestor/predatory human. What do you choose? And what does this have to do with honey!

That honestly is unfair. What if I told a wife she had to choose between her husband and her son? Does that mean that the husband had no right to life, etc? Or to not be abused? They are sentient beings. I mean, I see what you are saying, but it's a way of auto-negating an animal life by default. This misses the WHOLE point is, honestly, which is: ESPECIALLY if someone has a child who will inherit the Earth, they REALLY need to go vegan before anyone else. Like YESTERDAY.

[SchoolOfRAWk]

"Until I see an animal create what humans have created (buildings, cars, cell-phones) then I'll reconsider my thoughts."

I could say that until I see a wild animal poison it's own food and water, I'll reconsider as to whether humans are as smart as wild animals....

But it's not really about who's smarter. It's about whether they can suffer. And they can. And boy oh boy do they ever.

Honestly, cell-phones give people cancer, totally. Badly so. They are scary awful. They are just widely accepted as "necessities" now is all. I'm not so sure "civilization" is one of the best things we could have done with our time and efforts, overall. Do you mean to say that this ship is sailing, not sinking? All evidence indicates we are man-made and misguided and man-ruined. We are sailing on one giant Titanic, scientifically speaking, and once again everybody is ignoring the iceberg, too busy patting themselves on the back about how "advanced" we are. This is just a general statement, overall. But something to think about.

Are we the highest functioning species, generally speaking? Yes. But this is a standard to be very careful of as I have met humans who are in a vegetable-like condition who were still very sentient and alive, just very vulnerable and of course voiceless and helpless. Almost like....how animals are.

[SchoolOfRAWk]

I for one can say that as a vegan, I think it's great when people won't kill a spider, etc. I have met non-vegan martial artists who practiced deep Eastern philosophy who held the same principle.

I don't go out of my way to kill insects. Why? I also jump and shriek when certain centipede type earwigs would bolt across my floor in Chicago. I didn't cuddle or bless them, needless to say. And as a raw foodist on top of vegan, I am very open still about my large distaste for the most disgusting creatures on Earth, earthworms. Please, no lectures about their wonderful "gifts", I'm aware of them. But if they are doing their job, then they should be BELOW GROUND in my grossed-out opinion.

But I also don't hold protests in front of bug zappers or the insectiside aisle at Safeway or anything, as most vegans don't. I think this otherwise possibly very informative thread got a bit sidetracked on that point, which some may find ludicrous or not.

I really ADMIRE that in Andy, but I want to say that vegans don't sit around thinking themselves less-than a cockroach or faulting people for using a fly-swatter or protecting their baby at all costs, nor does someone have to befriend spiders to follow a more vegan lifestyle.

I hope that said something-?

[the_lab_rat]

When my friends and I would be debating deep philosophical issues (while drinking and stoning, mind you.....), I'd pose this dilema. You have to choose between saving the life of your loyal, wonderful dog or a repulsive, hardened criminal/ child molestor/predatory human. What do you choose? And what does this have to do with honey!

I had to think about this for a minute and keep reading it over.

Not to think about which choice I'd make, but to make sure I was reading it correctly.

Because to me there's no "dilemma."

Come to think of it, I'd have a harder time deciding what to eat for breakfast than deciding who to save in that scenario :D

Oh yeah, and you're right, we seem to have digressed away from those poor bees... ;)

[FirstGarden]

This thread started with a question about honey. The reason it morphed into such a huge debate is because it hit some hot buttons and has touched some matters dear to our hearts.

I have a question for you all...

If you reject religious concepts, which have, by and large, provided the moral underpinnings for western society, then on what basis can you present any opinion as paramount to absolute fact?

If we are biased by "western religious values," then what makes your alternate view not biased? Or, on what basis are you not biased?

You may feel that others are deceived. (And many are). But how do you KNOW that you yourself are not deceived?

What gives you a better divining rod for truth than anyone else?

If your truth is based on your own inner knowing and experience, then what makes your inner knowing and experience better than anyone else's inner knowing and experience?

In an existential, no-absolutes sort of vantage point on life, how can you present your view as any more valid than anyone else's.

Basically it comes down to feelings, personal preferences and comfort zones, if you do not have a True Basis of Authority upon which to rest your beliefs.

Science brought you human evolution. You came from a rock. You came from primordial slime, or two hydrogen atoms, or whatever evolutionary flavor you prefer. In fact, all the magnificent, complex, marvelous and wonderful forms of Creation, with all their manifest Intelligence and Intricate Design.. came from absolute vacuum.

How do I know this? Because Charley said so.

(Charles Darwin, that is.. bless his heart. I mean that sincerely.)

The same sort of science gave you all the categories and species of life on earth. You are an animal. No better, no worse. In fact you ARE worse, because animals don't rape and rob banks. They act on instinct. They are not free moral agents. You are. You have the power of moral choice. That is, if you believe in right and wrong. And on what basis do you derive that??? Have you really thought about that?

If you are the god of your universe, and I am the god of mine, then who says that I cannot kill you? Or you me? After all, there's no other God around, and in my universe, there is no "Thou Shalt Not Kill." On what basis is life valuable at all??? Because you said so? What makes your godhood intrinsically any better than my godhood?

Righteousness? Value? Respect for life? What righteousness? What value?? What respect??? We're no better than the animals who prey upon one another for existence. In fact we're worse! On what basis does Good arise? In my universe, and according to my godhood, it doesn't exist. Only expediency, and that which is utilitarian to me. Do you see where I'm going with this?

But, assuming we have established GOOD out of absolute vacuum, and out of our own subjectiveness; assuming we can differentiate between right and wrong, then we DO have the capacity for GREAT GOOD, OR GREAT EVIL.

Yet we are "no better than an insect???"

And we are sometimes far worse!

If you can be worse, based on this reasoning of moral choice.. then WHY CAN'T YOU BE BETTER?

Or Higher? or Greater? What's so bad about that?

I don't need to be better in order to eat meat.
I don't need to be equal in order not to eat meat.

But I DON'T eat meat. I have VERY compelling reasons NOT to eat meat, or any flesh foods whatsoever.

Yet I AM better than the common animals, who do not possess moral choice and the capacity for good and evil.

Consider these words:

"Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? And yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; YOU ARE BETTER THAN MANY SPARROWS. Luke 12:6-7
Jesus the Messiah

This is the Jesus Who was angry with the religious figures of His day. They would "strain at gnats" to keep from ingesting them, (because they were unclean) then turn around and "swallow a camel." The religious ones also despised Him because He healed on the Sabbath and His disciples picked corn on the Sabbath. He stressed that the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. He stressed always the weightier matters of Life - such as Love and Mercy, which triumphs over judgment.

Now, you may reject His words, and all Holy Writ, declaring it not to be Divine Revelation. That's all your business and none of mine.

Only, what makes the Gospel of Raw Veganism any better? What makes your truth better than that which has morally transformed communities and inspired billions over the ages to live a Godly and principled life?

Biologically, we are classified as animals.. by the same people who say you have no soul, that you evolved from a rock that was rained upon for millions of years and turned it into a pre-biotic soup. And THAT is the source of your being. Not only your body, but your soul (explain that one) and your human spirit and superior capacity for intelligence.

We are so quick to accept such a premise, and yet flat out reject that man and woman were formed from the dust of the earth and that God breathed into them a living soul.

We are quick to buy into the notion that the Universe came from absolute vacuum. Yet we reject the idea of design and that of a Governing Intelligence and Benevolent, Overseeing, Eternal Creator.

In fact, humanistic philosophy will go to extraordinary lengths to believe just about anything that offers an "escape" from any sense of accountability to an Almighty, Sovereign God.

We heartily reject the Ten Commandments and morals "based on anything that smacks of religious tradition/conviction and Holy Writ, yet we wholeheartedly embrace the "Thou Shalt Not Kills" of animal rights, vegan ethics, and whatever matters of conscience grip us.

This disparity of do-it-yourself morality based on "what seems right to me" over and against any acceptance of a Holy, Moral, Righteous God is a most curious quirk of human ingenuity. In other words, we reject any God in the picture (unless that god be me), with all HIS/HER morals, divine virtues and Commandments, and yet we uphold our own vegan morality, righteousness and convictions in all sacredness.. in spite of our often loose morals in other areas resulting in broken marriages, AIDS, and a whole host of evils. Also, we despise these same inconsistencies in people of religious faith, yet seem to give ourselves a pass.

And we don't seem to mind if we trash others' Dignity and trample all over their feelings. After all, we're right. We're the righteous non-meat eating ones. Why.. we don't even eat honey!

"The proud hate pride... in others."
Ben Franklin

And so, the earthen-religious hate traditional religion in others.

Maybe we are the ones who need to search out our own hearts.

Peace.. Love to all.

[adriel]

I eat raw unfiltered honey. I don't really see an ethical problem with it. As far as I have been educated, bees don't use honey for food unless there is a shortage of pollen and nectar. Primarily, the honey is stored and only consumed in the winter. Most honey farmers don't harvest all of the honey in the hive, leaving enough for the bees to eat during winter months.

It is true that questions of ethics can be extremely difficult to answer. I don't think we should limit topics of discussion to the confines of one particular definition of veganism.

PS - honey has been shown to have to following health benefits: regular consumption increases antioxidant levels in the blood (helping fight cancer, heart disease, and many other illnesses), slows artherosclerosis (hardening of the arteries), enhances calcium absorbtion, reduces or eliminates seasonal alltergies, acts as an antibacterial and antifungal agent and helps speed the healing of minor wounds...and more. If you are interested, google it :)

[belleadonna]

"What it really boils down too is that it is each persons business what they eat or don't eat. If you don't want to eat honey for ethical reasons, then don't. If you want to eat it and don't feel that it is a sin, then eat it. This arguement is kind of useless because it will never be solved."[/I]

To me, that is like saying that the north should not have cared how the south "boosted their economy" with slaves or we should have left Hitler to his "business". The same genocide, torture, abuse and slavery are going on. Is it okay because they don't speak English and now it's called "food" and not "economy"? Same thing. Ditto for Lynching. Should Ida B Wells just have left the whites to their "business" lynching innocent blacks? Some things are bigger than personal preference.



I can't believe that you are equating a persons choice of whether to eat honey or not to slavery, Hitler, torture, abuse, and lynching!! :eek:
If we are trying to convince people to be vegan we will not get it done by being militant. It is your right to voice your opinion as it is mine. I just don't think that honey is a good battlefield as it is a personal choice.

[SeaRose]

I have been staying away from this forum for awhile because I didn't like the direction it was going in. Thought I'd pop back in here today to try again, and this is the first post I found.

I would like to say I thought this was a forum where people supported and helped each other to transition to a raw food lifestyle. Not a place where people stand on their pedestals and point fingers at each other. Isn't that done enough in this world?

I'm outta here!

[kiwiLOVE]

I would like to say I thought this was a forum where people supported and helped each other to transition to a raw food lifestyle. Not a place where people stand on their pedestals and point fingers at each other. Isn't that done enough in this world?

I'm outta here!


- yeah, that's right.... =(

[Rawkinlocs]

Okay party people...I hope everyone was able to get everything out of their systems regarding this thread 'cause we're at 10 pages and it's not going to end in us all agreeing. I told yall how these honey/vegan debates usually end...they DON'T! It's like that "Song that Never Ends - It goes on and on my friends! It's the same 'ole same 'ole and probably will be the NEXT time someone says, "Hey, I thought this was a vegan forum so why is HONEY allowed to be discussed here?? :confused: :mad: "

It'll be closed, but not deleted or anything as it will be a good point of reference FOR that next time (and I know there WILL be a next time...maybe weeks, months or maybe another year down the line) and we will refer them to this thread so they can see what the results usually end up being.

Once again, bottom line is that, on Raw Food Talk, no we don't get into the alleged benefits of eating meat or dairy or eggs - raw or cooked - it's always been that way. However, honey is "one of those things" that will ever be debated as to IF it's ethical to the bees or IF it's stealing from the bees or IF it's good for you or IF it's bad for you YET, it's not a "closed-topic" on the forum and it's just always been that way.

Unless Alissa decides to stop allowing it, it's allowed. Unless Alissa ever decided to allow the discussion of other animal products, then those are NOT allowed. So, those of you who find honey on the forum offensive, we're sorry to offend - please just don't click on any threads or read any further if you see a discussion pop up about "What brand of raw honey do you use?"

To those who think this thread was a lot of pointing fingers and being judgemental - I honestly do not think it went in that direction. The mods have been watching this thread closely to make sure it didn't turn ugly and IMHO, it didn't. It's a hot topic and always has been, even (as someone pointed out) in NON-raw vegan discussions. Yes, some got a bit more emotional and passionate, but overall I don't think there was any rudeness or flaming as we have seen on other forums. It was a good discussion and I think every now and then RFT NEEDS a little bit of that and to allow folks to really dig in and express their views without fear of retaliation. So, now that we've had this I hope we can and will all carry on and support one another AS WE ALWAYS DO (this board is VERY supportive) and not allow any of our varying views and opinions on this subject cause any hard feelings towards one another.

Peace!