Thought provoking interview

[hawaiigal]

Hi all

http://drbenkim.com/articles-nazariah.html

I came across this interview recently and would like your opinions. I love this way of eating and will never go back to eating how I did just 3 months ago. I have lost weight, my skin is great and I feel clearer and happier than I can remember. So I am looking long term now to how I need to address some of these concerns...

Faye

[Rawkinlocs]

Hi Hawaiigal,

We recently had a discussion on Frederic P. and Nazariah and I'd like to quote (if I may) what SweetGoddess wrote in that thread because it very well sums up how I feel about this article and other similar information like it:

...I did read a lot of this info at the beginning of my raw journey. And just like everything, absolutely everything, there is always a positive and a negative, as we live in a dual world.
When it comes to books or information , on any subject, that book or information is tinged with the author or teachers beliefs, experiences and opinions. It is their reality and so their truth.

I have read so many, many books in my life and I recognized early on that truth cannot BE found in a book. It cannot be found with someone else or given to you by someone else. Truth is personal and individual.

So ,though for sure there is so much conflicting information out there it makes your head spin, don't let it bother or discourage you. Sift through the information available, piece together what you can believe in , experience it and there you will have TRUTH as only you can know it.

I dont know why I said all this now that I look at it. I just dont like to think of all the conflicting information discouraging someone. Hope it wasnt too much!

[rayelynn]

To be honest though, for a seedling like me, this article is very scary. I am not sure what to do with this.

raye lynn

[misslinda]

I can see where this article would raise some "anxiety" and questions.

I dont' doubt there are folks that have died as a result of "raw" food diet just as many have died on SAD. However, as far as raw goes, I would have to question what and how those people ate everyday in order to make a determination to ever go against raw. Like any other diet, there are folks that can and will take it to the extreme.

What if those folks were secretly smoking crack on the side (just being funny) :eek:

I can't see myself ever eating anything other than fresh wholesome foods like raw. But then again, I 'm glad this got me thinking and more aware.


:)

[Rawkinlocs]

Rayelynn,

Don't be afraid. I know this is a very fear-inducing article but read and re-read what I quoted SweetGoddess having said in my previous post.

That is HIS experience. This is NOT everyone's experience. Not every raw food spokesperson is "faking the funk" and not every raw fooder goes through all of the things mentioned in that article.

Continue on with raw, as your body adjusts more and more and gets cleaner; you'll be able to listen to what your body needs, what it doesn't need, etc. and you will find what works for you.

[sweetgoddess]

It was a very interesting read.

Rayelynn~~This is something everyone beginning raw experiences, when they come across all the articles. I loved what Victoria Boutenko said at a talk I went to. She said....there are no raw food experts. It hasnt been around long enough for anyone to be an expert. And that, you have to listen to your own body and your own intuition. If you dont listen to yourself, you will be manipulated.

Also, food is a small part of a much greater whole.

I dont know--Alissa looks pretty darned gorgeous to me and she's been at it what, 16 years. Hmmm....hey Alissa, did they study you? :D

[growinhealth]

Hawaiigal, WHERE DID YOU FIND THIS? I was just wondering because I want to hear some other facts too, I have heard so many wonderful things about raw food and juicing, by many doctors and nutritionists. Hmm I wonder thanks for sharing this...this is very vital information.

[rawpriestess]

Well,
One of the things to realize in this article is neither of these people have specific evidence, it is always, I know someone who knows this raw family.

such as the family in Florida, the child that died. she was born without a thymus, children born this way usually only live about 2 weeks, but because she was raw, she lived to be 5 months old. so that is the REAL story about that.

and the kids didn't look emaciated, they looked like healthy FIT kids. NOT the fat kids we see every day who eat at McDonalds.

Rhio and Jinjee (2 of the major players in the raw movement, much like Alissa) had an email conversation about this article, and Rhio had a newsletter that she published this conversation in.

In which case, she asks questions, like who specifically, what report exactly, how long, and when, and these types of good questions, that these two men didn't address.

I can say, "I have a friend who (-----blank-----) and she was eating (--blank---) and then she DIED.", wow, can you believe it?

Okay, so what are my credentials, who was this person who died, how did she die, why did she die, was it related to the food she ate, or didn't eat?

I suppose you can say the same thing for the people who are loosing weight on raw food, who have their blood preasure go down to normal, who cure cancer and heart disease, and exema, and diabetes.

Just think of all of the things that all the people on this board no longer experience as dis-ease in their bodies because of a healthier lifestyle.

The best way is to try it, for 30 days, see how you feel, if it works for you, you will know in 30 days, if it doesn't okay, then you don't have to eat that way the rest of your life.

Each day is a new series of choices.

Blessings,

[growinhealth]

rawpriestess, you gave me chills from reading your post. Thank you for giving that information, and giving encouragement to all us seedlings who were a little nervous. YOu are right, do it for 30 days and if it doesn't work for you, you don't have to do it anymore. Thanks I love this!

[hawaiigal]

Rawkinlocs misslinda sweetgoddess rawpriestess :)

thanks for your replies...I guess we all need to monitor our own experience as it differs with our choices and individual makeups/total lifestyles etc. He talks of the need to include organic eggs for B-12 but then I have heard so many reports of eggs being not so good for you...

I am certainly not going to trade raw food for a SAD diet in the hope of receiving one area of nutrition that eating raw doesnt provide (perhaps) just to make up for small discrepencies when it has such a positive effect in all other areas.

Raelynn and growinhealth I hope I didnt discourage you in any way by posting this thread. Once you have tried raw for any period of time you KNOW how much better it is for you and dont feel the need to justify eating this way. When I read this I went into a bit of a tail spin - thank goodness for this board. The proof is in the pudding ;) There is so much information out there to help become informed and then listen to your body.

Much Aloha to you
Faye

[Fuzzball]

You know, I heard of a study that was done. Family members of recently deceased people were polled about their eating habits.

In every single case the dead person had eaten carrots.

Therefore, if you eat carrots, you're gonna die!

(hey, makes as much sense as others writing about something they have no personal knowledge of).

The internet is the bathroom wall of society. Humans are by nature, negative. You have to WORK to be positive (just watch the news and you'll believe). When anyone with any background can "publish" any story they want, then you have to remember that "You get what you pay for".

When J.I. Rodale first started publishing his Prevention magazine, he was shut down by the government. He advocated exercise and good food to keep yourself healthy. All of the "Experts" testified that exercise contributed to heart attacks and other maladys. J.I. was eventually vindicated as he chose to fight his first amendment case.

When I recently asked my doctor what supplements he recommended for me, he told me bluntly, "I don't have time to keep up with supplements, I'm too busy learning all the new drugs". Needless to say, after I go to see him this next time, "You're FIRED!!!!!!!"

I won't read the article that was posted as I don't want to subject myself to negative input.

By the way, there are hundreds of thousands of "Hate America" websites, so, when are you going to leave America?

[Revvell]

People are going on and on about raw folk not getting sufficient B-12 in their diets. What they fail to say is MOST folk on the SAD diet fail to get B-12 and many other nutrients in their diets!

What do they get from soda? Donuts? Pizza? Well, o.k. pizza yeah, they get some tomato sauce.

Please folk, get a grip here. Fruits and vegetables were made for us to eat just as certain foods were made for other animals on this planet. Nature did NOT make a mistake when she provided food for us. We are always thinking we can improve on nature. I've yet to see that.

What happens is, we make things difficult. KISS! Food ~ fruits and veggies are good for you! You get nutrients from them! You get bio (life) from them! They contain their own enzymes so your body doesn't have to work so hard to digest them!

Try it!!! 30 days! You'll know! How do you feel? Take some pics, keep a journal (here or where ever). Write down what you would like to see eventually happen. Just know, you did NOT get into the shape you are in in 30 days. You will most likely go through some changes.

In my husband's case, his skin is breaking out "badly". It's been a week and it's clearing up. He's spent 44 years ~ the last 15 on the road ~ eating food in restaurants ~ and at home Danish produce is not exactly nutrient dense.

*jumps off the soapbox*

injoy :)

Revvell

[EmmaBlue]

Here's how I look at it. Nazariah says:

Here’s what I think now: a person on a raw diet, including fermented dairy products or eggs, will do fine.

Most of us have our slip-ups with cooked food, so why not have yogurt or organic eggs when we slip, rather than, say, pizza or cake? That's what I do, so I figure I've got all my bases covered.

Also, what's interesting about the diet that Nazariah proposes (fresh fruit, raw and cooked veggies, eggs) is that it's the diet the Tibetan yogis followed who developed the Tibetan Rejuvenation Rites. Interestingly, the yogis ate mostly mono meals (a bowl of blueberries for breakfast, a meal of cooked spinach for lunch, etc.) as well as boiled eggs.

Also, the raw vegan movement has been around since before the 1930s, so there should be raw vegans in their 90s by now, but there are none. It does make me wonder.

The population with the largest amount of centenarians are the Okinawa people, and they follow a macrobiotic diet.
~emma

[Revvell]

There are no raw vegans in their 90's? Is this for sure? Maybe they just aren't posting here. :D

I know one gent who has been raw vegan for 30 years. His whole family including 5 children are raw. They look darn good to me! I spent a weekend with them because I wanted to see how children do on raw. Two were born while mom was raw vegan; two while she was veggie (I think it was).

Thing is, do the experiment and find what works for you.

Injoy ~

Revvell

[sweetgoddess]

Elizabeth Baker is in her 90's and is a raw foodist. She healed herself of cancer, addisons among other things. Her husband is a a research specialist in nuclear chemistry and physics. I just found out today she lives 20 minutes away. Check out this interview with her.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_2002_August-Sept/ai_90794448

[swingbolder]

>>Also, the raw vegan movement has been around since before the 1930s, so there should be raw vegans in their 90s by now, but there are none. It does make me wonder.<<

I highly recommend the books Raw Knowledge and Raw Knowledge 2, written by Paul Nison. In it are interviews with long-time raw foodists, including at least two in their 90s. What's interesting to me is not that none of these folks are 100 yet, but that ALL of them are living vibrant, active lives, when most of their peers are in nursing homes and physically debilitated.

The other interesting thing about these books is that you see that they all have very different diets -- some do grains and legumes, some don't. Some are natural hygienists, some don't do food combining at all. Some shun condiments and spices, others pile on the garlic and onions, some believe in sprouts, others do not, etc.

The first book esp. concentrates only on the old folks, including this woman in her sixties who has been eating raw since the early 80s:

http://www.annettelarkins.com/

[DotfromOz]

People are going on and on about raw folk not getting sufficient B-12 in their diets. What they fail to say is MOST folk on the SAD diet fail to get B-12 and many other nutrients in their diets!

These are extremely dangerous generalizations, it seems to me. I've been doing a lot of reading both pro and con about raw foodism just lately, and the evidence seems to be tending toward a distinct possibility of B-12 deficiency for raw vegans if they are not careful to monitor their health for any unusual symptoms and to supplement with various superfoods. I'm still investigating informed and expert opinions on whether or not the B-12 acquired from superfoods can be absorbed to a great enough extent to prevent deficiency of this crucial vitamin.

It is decidedly NOT true that "MOST folk on the SAD diet fail to get B-12" as B-12 is gotten from meats and dairy foods. So, it stands to reason that meat and dairy eaters are more, not less, likely than vegans to get B-12. Else why are so many superfoods and algaes recommended to vegans and raw foodists to prevent B-12 deficiency?


What do they get from soda? Donuts? Pizza? Well, o.k. pizza yeah, they get some tomato sauce. And, it is important to note, from pizza a person would get the B-12 present in the cheeses. Soda and donuts, I think most reasonable people would agree, are hardly examples of foods likely to provide many vitamins or other needed nutrients to speak of. :rolleyes:


Try it!!! 30 days! You'll know! How do you feel? Take some pics, keep a journal (here or where ever). Write down what you would like to see eventually happen. Just know, you did NOT get into the shape you are in in 30 days. You will most likely go through some changes.


Changes that very well may be due to eating a far healthier diet than you were previously. Changes that may possibly turn into your worst nightmare IF there is in fact something to the report that Gabriel Cousens is now concerned about the possibility that humans may not be able to absorb B-12 from plant sources effectively, and thus not only may raw foodism longterm be dangerous but superfoods may not prevent B-12 deficiency as is currently believed.

Don't be either so adamant or so scared that you neglect to examine research on both sides. Become informed! Do your research and keep up with discoveries as they're made. Then, you will have a far better basis upon which to decide what the best diet is, whether entirely raw or only mostly so.

[DotfromOz]

Elizabeth Baker is in her 90's and is a raw foodist. She healed herself of cancer, addisons among other things. Her husband is a a research specialist in nuclear chemistry and physics. I just found out today she lives 20 minutes away.
However, it doesn't state how long Baker has eaten 100% raw. Tallying up the dates given in her responses, it sounds as though she might have been raw for only a bit longer than a decade (difficult to tell estimating as I was) and thus would not be good evidence that a long-term raw diet enables people to live into their 90's and beyond. Do you know, SweetGoddess, or know of a source that specifies that? Anyone else?



I highly recommend the books Raw Knowledge and Raw Knowledge 2, written by Paul Nison. In it are interviews with long-time raw foodists, including at least two in their 90s. What's interesting to me is not that none of these folks are 100 yet, but that ALL of them are living vibrant, active lives, when most of their peers are in nursing homes and physically debilitated.

Now, this is more promising. However, it would be most enlightening to know, if possible, what percentage of long-term raw foodists these people represent compared with the statistics (if any have been assembled and publicized) of the percentage of serious health problems and deaths attributed to raw-only diets. I'd also like to know what the longevity is for family members of the people Nison includes. Longevity may be genetic to a very great extent, or so quite a lot of reading that I've done indicates.

[Mike]

Hi Friends,

I am friends with Nazariah and I'm going to see him tomorrow (Sunday, April 10). He hosts a monthly Essene Church service here in Portland. He is an amazing person. He is always laughing, dancing, cracking jokes, and he gives great sermons!

Personally, I feel fresh juice, vegan DHA Algae, and a B-12 supplement are important on this diet. Algae and Eggs both contain DHA, which certain people are unable to make. DHA is especially important for pregnant women. Also vitamin A is not available in vegan foods so we need to eat extra servings of beta-carotene. One glass of fresh carrot juice a day will give us plenty of beta-carotene to make vitamin A.

Also, saturated fat is also an important nutrient that vegans may be missing out on. A young coconut or a spoonful of coconut oil a day will give us enough saturated fat.

For minerals, it is very important for raw vegans to eat green pumpkin seeds for zinc, brazil nuts for selenium, celery and tomatoes for sodium, and kelp sea vegetable for iodine.

I feel that lack of knowledge about where to obtain certain nutrients is why raw foodists fail. Cooked fooders get these nutrients in processed salt, meat, fortified juices, and fortified breakfast cereals. We need to find these nutrients in food.

A friend of mine recently tried the raw food diet and became sick after a year. she called me for a consultation. I asked her if she was eating celery, she said no. How about sea vegetables, b-12, hemp seeds, flax seeds, coconuts, sprouts? She wasn't eating any of these foods.

There is now a vegan DHA supplement available->

http://www.rawfood.com/cgi-bin/order/index.cgi?id=193083068625&d=single&item_id=0694&c=Supplements&sc=Miscellaneous&tc=
"DHA, O-Mega-Zen3"
DHA (Decosahexaenoic Acid) is the major long-chain omega-3 fatty acid found in the brain. Concentrated in regions that require a high degree of electrical activity, DHA is important for signal transmission in the brain, eye and nervous systems.

[sweetgoddess]

Nope, sorry Dot, I don't know.
I do know there wont be any evidence until someone does it!
Maybe I'll go for it... ;)

[Rawkinlocs]

...I guess I'm just stubborn, but I simply re-FUSE to believe I HAVE to consume animal products to get one particular vitamin, B-12.

I believe that (sorry to get "religious" here for a second) my God has provided all I need in this plant life and that my body can absorb it if it's not full of gunk from eating junk.

I know what they say about soil depletion and all that...but I just simply can't worry about that. You say, Dot, that Dr. Cousens now may be finding that raw vegans can't absorb b12 from plant-life and that superfoods may not be enough...well, that's just one more thing to worry and stress over and I simply refuse to do it yall...I simply refuse.

There is enough in this world to worry about...SAD eaters have and have had in the past scares about eggs, about meat, about this and that. Now we who don't eat the SAD have scares about GMO and about deficient veggies and about whether hybrid fruits such as bananas are good or bad for us, about the skin on almonds being toxic and now we HAVE to peel them...ARRRGGG!! It's enough to make ya HEAD spin!

Well, I made up in my mind a long time ago that I am not doing this for life longevity because I could, in my mind, figure on living til the age of 150 years old due to eating a diet that (allegedly) won't cause disease, but a tragic accident or being at the wrong place at the wrong time in this crazy world we live in full of gunmen and suicide bombers...I could be taken out of here before I reach that ripe, old age (God forbid).

So, I am going to trust in my God that all my needs will be met, eat raw in order to keep this body/temple clean, and I am going to not worry about B12 or calcium or any of the other vitamins and minerals that were named by man and I'm going to live as simplified a life as I can and enjoy my food and my family and my life and if I live to be only 80, I will cherish those 80 years that I was allowed to be here on this earth as if it were 100 years because in this day and age, life IS short and I can't spend my days here worrying and in fear and I can't bring myself to consume things I don't like (raw eggs or even cooked ones for that matter) and unpasturized yogurt.

Sorry for the mini-rant and please know that it wasn't personally directed at ANY of you beautiful people...it was directed at fear and worry trying to manifest itself in me.

[sweetgoddess]

oh my gosh.

APPLAUSE FOR YOU CHERIE!!!
absolutely fabulous.

"I can't spend my days here worrying and in fear "

"that's just one more thing to worry and stress over and I simply refuse to do it yall...I simply refuse"

hallelujah!

[rawpriestess]

Elizabeth Baker went raw in the late 60's or early 70's as here first book was written in the early 70's of how she cured herself.

The Boutenkos have been 100% raw for 11 years www.rawfamily.com

Storm has been raw over 30 years www.thegardendiet.com

Alissa has been raw 16years www.alissacohen.com
so I would say that these are long term raw/vegans and Elizabeth Baker has been raw for decades and is in her 90's.

But personally, I DON'T CARE HOW LONG THEY HAVE LIVED OR HOW LONG THEY HAVE BEEN RAW.

I care about HOW I FEEL TODAY.

[sweetgoddess]

rawpriestess-thanks!

I think you just gave us the answer to everything involving raw experiences....


I care about HOW I FEEL TODAY

[swingbolder]

I don't see anything wrong in taking supplements. We live in a toxic, not a perfect world. Anyone see the PBS documentary by Bill Moyers on the environment? He had his blood tested and it contained over 100 toxic chemicals, including mercury and DDT -- which they stopped spraying with in the 60s and 70s. That's how long we carry poison around in our body. How can the human body, which evolved hundreds of thousands of years ago in a much cleaner world, compete against that? So I'm not a purist about supplements.

As far as vegans and B-12, my husband has been vegan for about 15 years and has never taken supplements. He's pretty healthy too, plays raquetball, strong immune system. So I think the jury's out on the B-12 thing. Me, I need all the help I can get, so I take a multi everyday. I did this when I was vegan, and when I ate meat as well. Like Rawkinlocks said, I have far too many other things to worry about than to fret over every little study here and there. If my body thrives, then it's all good.

As far as longevity, the people in my family do live well into their 90s, and this is eating meat, eggs etc.

[Revvell]

Ditto ~ without the apology!

And as far as SAD eaters getting enough B-12 I was at a conference last Sunday ~ as was Gabriel Cousens and it was he I believe (not positive) who said that THEY (SAD eaters) are lacking in B-12 because their impacted colons FROM animal products, cannot absorb B-12 or hardly many other nutrients.

End of this topic for me. See quote below! Thank you Cherie!!!!

Injoy ~

Revvell



...I guess I'm just stubborn, but I simply re-FUSE to believe I HAVE to consume animal products to get one particular vitamin, B-12.

I believe that (sorry to get "religious" here for a second) my God has provided all I need in this plant life and that my body can absorb it if it's not full of gunk from eating junk.

I know what they say about soil depletion and all that...but I just simply can't worry about that. You say, Dot, that Dr. Cousens now may be finding that raw vegans can't absorb b12 from plant-life and that superfoods may not be enough...well, that's just one more thing to worry and stress over and I simply refuse to do it yall...I simply refuse.

There is enough in this world to worry about...SAD eaters have and have had in the past scares about eggs, about meat, about this and that. Now we who don't eat the SAD have scares about GMO and about deficient veggies and about whether hybrid fruits such as bananas are good or bad for us, about the skin on almonds being toxic and now we HAVE to peel them...ARRRGGG!! It's enough to make ya HEAD spin!

Well, I made up in my mind a long time ago that I am not doing this for life longevity because I could, in my mind, figure on living til the age of 150 years old due to eating a diet that (allegedly) won't cause disease, but a tragic accident or being at the wrong place at the wrong time in this crazy world we live in full of gunmen and suicide bombers...I could be taken out of here before I reach that ripe, old age (God forbid).

So, I am going to trust in my God that all my needs will be met, eat raw in order to keep this body/temple clean, and I am going to not worry about B12 or calcium or any of the other vitamins and minerals that were named by man and I'm going to live as simplified a life as I can and enjoy my food and my family and my life and if I live to be only 80, I will cherish those 80 years that I was allowed to be here on this earth as if it were 100 years because in this day and age, life IS short and I can't spend my days here worrying and in fear and I can't bring myself to consume things I don't like (raw eggs or even cooked ones for that matter) and unpasturized yogurt.

...it was directed at fear and worry trying to manifest itself in me.

[DotfromOz]

Even those like me who are more skeptical than others.

I care about getting ALL the nutrients I need to avoid deficiencies that can be killers and are easily prevented with adequate nutrition.

Guess I'm just not a true believer and probably never will be.

[VeganVixen]

I think there are truths ,mistakes and personal body preferences and judgments/negativities to every ones diet "plans"-I am not going to eat eggs or milk from a poor animal treated cruely and fed dioxin filled pellets

however If I ate puss I would use raw animal products from loved and cared for organically fed animals -mainly cheeses -but they are HARD to find and still then you would have to watch and visit the farm to see if they practiced that .....so hid theory on "not hurting" animals is WRONG ,it supports the killing and exploiting machine.

I feel that raw foodist and vegans should not be so defensive ~and learn how to question it w/o feeling they have to abandin everything

All I know is I feel GREAT while raw and plan on staying this way unless my health goes downhill (dont think so though) and then I will add cooked (probably some macrobiotic) veggies and NOT grit my teeth and "bear" so I can be all raw.......but thats NOT the case now!!!!

and that "bear" with it (no matter what) thinking is DANGEROUS in any diet!

[EmmaBlue]

hi Sweet G, thanks for sharing that link. Are you going to visit her, since she lives so close to you?

Swingbolder, thanks also for sharing. I have Paul Nison's first book, not his second.

I guess what I meant to say was that I found it discouraging that the founders of the raw movement should be in their 80s or 90s by now, but they all died.

Dot, I share many of your concerns. You made some great points.

Mike, thanks for the info! I haven't been eating any of those things (except tomatoes & celery). My skin and hair are SO dry, perhaps the coconut oil will help? Be sure to tell Nazariah that many people are grateful to him for that interview. We know what a controversy it caused!

[Rawkinlocs]

I'm gonna add one more thing...

There is an 80-something year old woman down the street from me who is raw vegan (she hasn't been for many years, though).

The last time she and I spoke, she was mentioning a book she read by some nutrition expert that named off all these various vegetables and fruits that are not good to consume for one reason or another. So she mentioned greens, bananas, tomatoes, beans/legumes, nuts and some others I can't even remember...but the list was LONG!

So, my thought was, "What DOES she eat then?"

My point? Once again, there will always be something...always. Someone will always find something wrong with something.

[Pailani]

<<I am certainly not going to trade raw food for a SAD diet in the hope of receiving one area of nutrition that eating raw doesnt provide (perhaps) just to make up for small discrepencies when it has such a positive effect in all other areas.>>

I see this as another generalization. Those raw foodists who are saying that we may need to supplement with one thing or another aren't saying a raw diet is bad. In fact, they themselves eat a high raw diet. It isn't a case of 100 percent raw vs. donuts and pizza. The raw foodists like Nazariah, Frederic P. and some others are saying that we should all eat a mostly raw diet, but that we may need to add in a few things--cage free eggs, a B12 supplement, organic yogurt, depending on which one you read. There's a world of difference between a 90-percent raw diet supplemented with boiled eggs, and a standard American diet of cheeseburgers and mashed potatoes.

Can we please stop discrediting them by grouping them with SAD eaters? What they're saying and what they're eating is so far from a SAD diet that it does them and everyone an injustice by trying to stick them in the same category as Atkins or Ronald McDonald. Debate their fine points if you like, but don't whitewash the controversery by making them out to be SAD diet advocates.

[Revvell]

Yeah, me too.

I am not a "true believer". I've eaten cooked ~ grew up on it. I've eaten meat, grew up on it. I've done macrobiotics. I've done vegetarian. I've done vegan cooked. At this time, I am feeling better than I ever have. When I sleep, I sleep well. When I'm up, I'm up with energy and enthusiasm. I sometimes go to bed at 10 p.m. and up at 3 a.m. ~ making candles or other products. I feel good! My bowel movements are the best ever! My skin and hair are the best they've been in quite some time! I am 56 years old and have no pain in my joints. I pet a cat today. Not so long ago I couldn't be in the same room with one and if I touched my face after petting, my eyes would swell and tear-up.

IF eating meat and cooked foods worked for me, I'd still be doing them. They don't. I don't believe this. I am living proof. My life is experiential and I'm enjoying the experience.

I used to live a fear based life. I am as conscious as I can be to not continue on THAT path. I don't read newspapers, watch t.v. and only listen to music in the car. Life is good and I am appreciating it!

Now! Having said that, I am off to enjoy a RAW sandwich made of RAW onion bread with RAW tomatoes, RAW avocados, RAW cucumbers and RAW almond milk.

Enjoy your RAWsome day y'all! :D

Injoy ~

Revvell

[DotfromOz]

Those raw foodists who are saying that we may need to supplement with one thing or another aren't saying a raw diet is bad. In fact, they themselves eat a high raw diet. It isn't a case of 100 percent raw vs. donuts and pizza. The raw foodists like Nazariah, Frederic P. and some others are saying that we should all eat a mostly raw diet, but that we may need to add in a few things--cage free eggs, a B12 supplement, organic yogurt, depending on which one you read. There's a world of difference between a 90-percent raw diet supplemented with boiled eggs, and a standard American diet of cheeseburgers and mashed potatoes.

Can we please stop discrediting them by grouping them with SAD eaters? What they're saying and what they're eating is so far from a SAD diet that it does them and everyone an injustice by trying to stick them in the same category as Atkins or Ronald McDonald. Debate their fine points if you like, but don't whitewash the controversery by making them out to be SAD diet advocates.

Thank you, Pailani! Indeed!

For anyone who's interested, here's the link to Cousens' original article on his B-12 research with its link to his March 2004 follow-up. http://www.treeoflife.nu/news/ewb12.html

[EmmaBlue]

Paliani,

Finally someone has said what I wasn't able to express. Thanks!!! I hope your posts will put an end to the overly simplified and frustrating, "fruit is healthier than a cheeseburger" debates. They think a person is either a raw foodist, or camped out at McDonalds, as if there's no middle ground. Geez.

If people feel wonderful on the raw vegan diet, more power to them!

If they don't, and eating a boiled egg (or some other supplementation) could make the difference between success or failure, then articles like Nazariah's are extremely helpful.

~Emma

[VeganVixen]

and who is too say that pizza HAS to be unhealthy-thats the type of thinking that americans have ,It COULD be made w/ a whole grain crust ,fresh tomatoes/no sugar added organic sauce and veggie toppings ,and rice,soy ,almond or(at LEAST) high quality organic cheese...or even better, be RAW AND VEGAN!

[angelandarose]

*My 2 cents and personal opinions*

I have been reading this thread and mostly what I 'feel' from it is people's fear. I have learned to let go of ALL fear, I fear nothing and I go with what feels good to me. If something doesn't feel good I find something that does feel good. I don't beat the drum of what might happen, or what might go wrong, or what I don't want, I beat the drum of what I do want, what makes me happy, what makes me feel good NOW! Even the best research is still someone's opinion and has nothing to do with me. I create my own reality and in my NOW reality eating RAW feels GOOD! In my reality I am lacking nothing in my diet, there are no deficiencies in my diet. Focusing on lack is negative and draws to me what I don't want. So why focus there?

Eating simple raw foods feels GOOD... to me. These simple wholesome foods provide me with everything I need to FEEL GOOD!

Love,
Angie

[DotfromOz]

If people feel wonderful on the raw vegan diet, more power to them!

If they don't, and eating a boiled egg (or some other supplementation) could make the difference between success or failure, then articles like Nazariah's are extremely helpful.

I believe these statements represent an over-simplification. The point that Nazariah makes, it seems to me, is far more significant than simply saying that it's fine if people feel wonderful but if they don't, then they should supplement as required to enable them to stick with a raw diet. Short-term, he agrees, people mostly feel wonderful. It's long-term vegans and vegan raw-foodists about whom he's primarily concerned as is Gabriel Cousens. B-12 deficiency in particular may not show up right away depending upon a given individual's constitution; rather, it can surface after months or years, and the first indications of it can be life-threatening symptoms.

Nazariah is also concerned about serious illnesses and deaths resulting from nutritional deficiencies and about dishonesty on the part of well-known authors who publicly claim to be 100% vegan raw, staunchly promoting its life-long benefits, and who exhort people to "do as I say," but if the truth were known, they themselves actually are not.

Again, I would encourage everyone to read the information available. You don't have to or don't have to believe any of it if that's your choice. However, few of us would stop our ears and close our eyes before crossing a busy street because we know the hazard of doing so. How wise is it to do something similar by refusing even to read warnings of possible hazards of vegan and raw vegan diets?

[Helen Of Tennessee]

Hi Sweetgoddess,

Thanks so much for the article on Elizabeth Baker!!!! I'm partway through it and found it very interesting and informative. Her's is also the first one I found pertaining to the adrenals (I have/had insuffient adrenals, which I was treated for, for a year).

<>< Helen of Tennessee

[Zuzu]

It was a very scary article, (the first one )however If I continue on my present past of overeating and bad foods , I will die anyways.

And I am just guessing that more people die from a high fat american diet (which is what I have been on ) Than a raw diet.

So I will keep this article in mind, but continue my raw diet.

[Rawkinlocs]

Okay, after FUMING over Dot's comments for the past couple of hours or so, I decided to re-read Nazariah's interview and read the article by Dr. Cousens regarding B12 that Dot linked us to.

I will take the supplements to be on the safe side. I had to laugh to myself when he said that animals in nature don't get b12 deficiencies because they eat their own feces and that we would get it too if we ate our own (YEEEUCK)...DEFINITELY ain't gonna do THAT! :eek:

So, to be a HEALTHY raw vegan, I'll do the b12 supplements as opposed to the raw milk and eggs.

Thanks for this discussion and information presented. I guess it really wasn't something to try and stir up fear if you really read into it...it's just telling us how to be the healthiest raw fooders we can, even Nazariah's interview...I read it again and I see that he is suggesting that you either take the supplement or eat the fermented dairy and organic eggs for optimum health.

I guess I just wanted to believe that we could get it all from this diet, naturally, with no supplementation or anything. I wanted to believe that I could be all natural and not put anything foreign into my body. But as Swingbolder pointed out, we don't live in a perfect world anymore. It's too polluted and highly toxic and sometimes, we need a little help and I can accept that.

Told yall I was stubborn!

Thanks Dot, Emma, Mike...well ALL of you - you got me thinking and I realize that I don't want to do anything unwise or foolish.

I love yall man! Just don't ever tell me that I GOTTA eat cooked foods, or animals or drink their lactation...then we might hafta roll up our sleeves and get to it!

LOL! ;)

Cherie - aspiring 100% raw vegan (with a little supplementation)

[DotfromOz]

Thank you, Cherie, for your courage and ability to admit that you may need to take some additional precautions to ensure that you maintain good health. That was my intent, to urge people to examine ALL viewpoints and not to become inflexibly devoted to what they wish to believe is true but may not be. We are generally wiser when we check out what may seem to be the "opposition" and then weigh the evidence on both sides to determine what seems to be best for our own individual health and circumstances. No one can truthfully say that any single diet--SAD, vegetarian in its several forms, vegan, raw with its variations--is always and forever best for a particular person.

I think, after further reading on Cousens' Tree of Life site, that he has a very good point about working with a healthcare provider who can administer periodic bloodtests and other health monitoring in order to gear a diet to your individual needs. I plan to look into that approach in more detail myself, as I do not believe that even a raw foods diet will work for everyone across the board. There are just too many variations in individuals' ability to digest well and to absorb nutrients. I've noticed some symptoms that make me wonder if I might do better eating a few cooked vegetables, as I have diagnosed digestive problems and probably have a weak digestive tract.

So, I commend and thank you again, Cherie, and hope that all of us will have your courage to investigate, to compromise a bit, and to do so out of a compelling desire to be the healthiest that we and our loved ones possibly can be based upon current wisdom.

[sweetgoddess]

Helen, so glad you found that helpful.
Cherie-you're amazing.

[Sweet lips]

Adam and Eve had the apple - we have the who did, said, what for our apple. RawPriestess is right about Dr. Baker and I add to the list Eydie Mae Hunsberger ( published the book in 1978) whose claim to fame is that she too healed herself on a raw diet, through Ann Wigmore's training and because she ws wealthy, she funded a place in CA - a healing institute.

I don't care to debate anyone about the article, as it is just that an article. None of us have to be right all of the time - what does it profit, if harms another or discourages another. We just have to do what is right to handle our temples. How do you feel, how are you living? Has there been any good thing coming from increased rawness in your body. Have you had the traditional medicine people check for defencies. Does it really matter in the scheme of things what this interview says. WHAT ABOUT YOU - inside out?

Alissa has written many times with extreme passion that this board was created for those who want to be 100% raw - not necessarily there yet, not to even discourage those who may not want to be 100% raw, but to handle discussion as towards her vision and mission for this board. I by no means am inviting anyone who does not desire to be 100% raw leave this board - that would be presumptous on my part, but I am strongly suggesting that if that is your choice adhere to that of the owner.

The true test in life, always involve looking within for answers and determining how to handle those four fingers that always point back to self, when that one is pointing out towards another.

Today is in some societies - a day of rest - can we rest this issue and get on with living our lives inside out - meaning, what ever is on the inside of us, will eventually manfest itself on the outside and if that is not clean, it will show up on the outside and then everyone will know.

This is my only and my final comment on this. It is my day of rest. I am glad and I am rejoicing in it, because I control nothing!

[DennisMB]

Does any one here have Elizabeth Baker's books and if so, are they worth the read?

[Cinnamon]

Ahhh... Elizabeth Baker! I had the pleasure of meeting this lovely woman in the early 1990's. She held a workshop and gourmet raw food feast, an experience unlike anything I am sure I will ever experience again.

She is an absolute wealth of information, she has survived so many illnesses and through faith and science has lived the raw food diet for many years. I have all her books and have for years, (at least I think I have them all!) and cherish them not only for the knowledge she shares in them but for the memory of such a special day spent at her workshop. There was such a variety of people there that day, including many with cancer. It was such a moving experience!

She lives in the same town as I do, I have often thought of calling her. I don't think she is active by giving lectures any longer but I am not sure about that. If you can find her books (and some library systems will have some of them too) I'd suggest them. They are different than any raw food books on the market now, that difference would be hard to explain but if you read one of her books you will know what I mean!

The raw gourmet dinner we had was prepared by one of her assistants, a graduate student at the Bastyr University. She was doing an internship with Elizabeth, now that would be an experience I'd love to get to do! I can't remember everything we had but there was a corn chowder, nut patties with a type of sauce or gravy, an apple dessert that was out of this world. There were a few cooked items, like a pancake type of pattie. I don't know if I have my notes from the lecture and dinner anymore, too many moves and packed boxes ago!

So to answer your question Dennis since I am taking the long route here! I do think her books are worth the read. I think she is a remarkable woman with so much to share in the world of nutrition and the raw food diet.

[Sweet lips]

Yes, Dennis,

I agree with Cinnamon (BTW - Cinn, got your e-mail will get back to you in a moment), they are different - very basic - and like Cinnamon said you just have to get them. I know that Avery Publishing still carries them as does my local health food store where I first got wind of raw in 1993.

They are good to you as well.

[DennisMB]

Thanks Ladies!
I am sure I will be able to find them online!
Thanks Cinnamon for taking the time to share your experiences with her.
Cheers
Dennis

[sweetgoddess]

Sounds lovely Cinnamon~lets go visit her! :p

[DotfromOz]

Alissa has written many times with extreme passion that this board was created for those who want to be 100% raw - not necessarily there yet, not to even discourage those who may not want to be 100% raw, but to handle discussion as towards her vision and mission for this board. I by no means am inviting anyone who does not desire to be 100% raw leave this board - that would be presumptous on my part, but I am strongly suggesting that if that is your choice adhere to that of the owner.


I'll abandon expressing the concerns that I've raised on this thread and another, as I see that my doing so is being regarded not in the spirit in which I intended it, to encourage people to become as informed as they possibly can in order to have the best basis for determining what diet each individual can thrive on, but rather as contrary to the spirit of the site which apparently is 100% vegan raw or moving toward that, all others need not apply.

I am not sorry that I rocked your boats. If my doing so caused people to examine the research and to make what they believe are beneficial changes as a result, then I accomplished something useful--possibly even lifesaving.

I'll simply wish all of you lasting good health and happiness in whatever you do.

Sincerely,
Dot

[Pailani]

Dot, I appreciate your posting the article. We know that a raw diet works, but it doesn't hurt to go into it with our eyes open and know if there are any signs we need to be aware of telling us that we may need to make some modifications to our raw diets, such as adding a B12 supplement. We all need to know the latest breakthroughs, and be aware of helpful ways we can make the diet work for us.

[VeganVixen]

I dont beleive that this forum is NOT about people being or moving towards 100 % raw (maybe at first BUT not now!) If it was then that would be VERY exclusive and judemental!!!!!!!Also I dont think Alissa would want anyone to be all raw and suffer a bad b12 deficiency and feel terrible,on this board we have all 100 %raw vegans,partial rawvies,raw non vegans,and a few people that want to incorperate raw

lile pialani said were trying to make the diet RIGHT FOR US...NOT FOR ANYONE ELSE!!!


And if that means 100% raw or taking supplements ,cooked tomatos or whatever -then so be it!

Right now 100 % percent raw vegan is what works - but Im not stuck on that number for life ,its flexable depending on how it works and I feel for the long run.

[Gosia]

There was a good discussion about this article once on rawfoodsupport.com (Jinjee has some interesting things to say, if you could find her response, you would find that very enlightening). In brief, the article contains so many errors, that Frederic finally got it off his website. In my opinion, it is not worthy to rely on Nazariah, in forming one's opinion on raw foods. Especially those beginner raw foodists would benefit far more by reading something by Jinjee, Nora, Bryan, Steve, or even our wonderful Alissa, than this error-ridden interview.

Love,
Gosia.

[Rawkinlocs]

I think that Sweetlips comment in her post was a bit misconstrued.

She is not saying that people who are not 100% raw or trying to be shouldn't be here or post here. From what I read of her post, she is making mention of the issues of bringing up the subjects of eating raw meat and raw dairy products, not the issue of taking supplements. Nazariah's interview has a LOT of this type of tone to it...suggesting that in order to be a thriving raw foodist, you SHOULD incorporate raw fermented dairy and eggs. There's no getting around the fact that his interview dealt heavily with that. But I also saw, ever so slightly mentioned, that he suggests taking a B12 supplement if you won't eat those things.

So, in essence, Sweetlips is suggesting that we be mindful of our listowners wishes regarding the constant resurrection of this topic.

We can freely discuss B12 and other issues, but what we don't want is to go making people feel/think that in order to thrive on this "diet" that they HAVE to eat raw meat or raw dairy or raw "liquid meat" (eggs). Now, I realize that no one here did that, but the article DID and there are newbies here that could get very mixed signals reading that article. "Well, should I or shouldn't I eat an all raw diet?" is where it leaves many people in their thinking when they read it. This place is a place that supports a raw diet, plain and simple.

Sweetlips even said in her post that she was NOT suggesting that those who are not all raw not participate and that that would be presumptuous of her to do so...but that we simply just try and respect the rules and wishes of our list owner.

In another thread (http://rawfoodtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2456 for reference), the question was asked whether this was a raw vegan board or a raw board where the poster was asking if we discussed eating raw meat, cheese, milk, etc.)

Here is what Alissa said:

Its a raw forum for people who are striving to be raw.

This does not mean that you cant participate here if you are not all raw as many here are working towards that and are 'playing' with the percentages that work best for them.

As far as the discussion of eating raw animals and promoting that, no i guess you could say that would not be welcome here as this board was set up for the purpose of getting support and learning more about the raw plant based diet. Not a ‘fanatical vegan raw board’ but people supporting each other in that and not to encourage the consumption of animals.
Btw/ i don’t eat raw milk, cheese or eggs obvious now that ive stated the above I suppose, but... ;)

So, please don't take it the wrong way. We're all at different levels and even if you DO choose to incorporate animal products into your diet, that is not our place to judge you, but we just don't discuss or advocate it here, that's the message I get from Sweetlips as well as Alissa's post (as quoted above).

Oh and I don't believe that even IF the whole purpose of this board was for those who are 100% or striving to be that it would be judgemental. There are MANY boards that people can go to no matter what. But let's say for example, I decided that I wanted to start a board exclusively for giving support to those who already eat or want to eat all raw and no cooked food at ALL...why would that be considered judgemental unless we were sitting there down-talking those who eat cooked foods. But that would not be allowed, it'd be ONLY for support of those of us who choose not to eat cooked foods or no longer wish to eat them.

[Cinnamon]

Yes, sweetgoddess... let's do go visit Elizabeth! Wouldn't that be fun!

[Rawkinlocs]

Gosia,

I was just thinking about this today and wondered why that interview was no longer at the source of the very place from whence it started. Hmmm...interesting.

[Gosia]

Frederic posted a message on rawfoodsupport.com boards and explained why he did that, as I said, he decided to take it off, because it contained too many errors (After interviewing Nazariah, he checked some Naxariah's "facts" and found that there were incorect. Also, several errors were pointed out in a discussion on a rawfoodsupport.com boards.) I think that is someone still puts that interview on their web-page, they should at least include the list of all the errors as well.

[DotfromOz]

What errors? Please link us to the list of Nazariah's errors in the Dr. Kim interview rather than merely stating that there are lots of errors. I noticed that Patenaude's comments on Nazariah's remarks were included at several points by Dr. Kim and would like to read the entirety of FP's or anyone else's objections to what Nazariah says.

[Gosia]

I do not have the links (did not keep them) and am merely too busy to look for them. You could look up the archives at rawfoodsupport (and then post the links here). Or, maybe someone else has got them already?

[Rawkinlocs]

Here is the discussion where Fred P. discusses why he took the interview off of his site: http://rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?f=12&i=44344&t=43872#reply_44344

WHEW! there's a lot to read through, but you'll find his posts (his name is fredraw or something like that...you'll know when you see it). He has a couple of posts discussing it, the first one shorter and the second one a bit more indepth as to his reasons.

I guess from the overall discussion there in that thread, it's still kinda up in the air about who's right or wrong. To paraphrase what my girl SweetGoddess said, we have to find OUR truth by our own experiences (or something like that :p ) because even among the experts, there is not a sure-fire answer!

[Sweet lips]

Whew Ladies, did I offend you Dot and Vixen - and to think I wasn't going to comment again,

I was not thinking of either of you when I wrote my comments - sorry, if you read clearly that which you did not choose to comment on was (which I did include below)- as you say Dot, be informed for yourself - I was in agreement with you - different words mine are to suggest -judge from the inside out.

I have lived a long time and seen and been in a lot of stuff, and just because, -- I have become wise enough not to be presumptous or pretentous - and really care not to be so judgemental, frankly I do not care that much in life to tell other people exactly what to do, think or be Vixen (not once did I mention whether or not a person should take supplementation) - I merely suggested that one look within - that means about the article, choices to eat, comments, adgenda's - what ever one choose - it just needs to start within. Healing as far as I know always begins within.

Thanks Rawkinlocs for your support -I am encouraged that you did not misunderstand my comment. I do find that people hear as they choose, and benefit from their postive and negative experinces, and sometimes they even grow inspite of themselves

So ladies, if you are offended, that wasn't my intention, everything for me starts within and we are who we are, so I respect people as they come, and hope that they become the best that they can be, as who they believe they are. I am still evolving.

Alissa - where is the spell check - I still can't spell.

I think I am done now, and trust you will all receive what the creator has for you. :)



I don't care to debate anyone about the article, as it is just that an article. None of us have to be right all of the time - what does it profit, if harms another or discourages another. We just have to do what is right to handle our temples. How do you feel, how are you living? Has there been any good thing coming from increased rawness in your body. Have you had the traditional medicine people check for defencies. Does it really matter in the scheme of things what this interview says. WHAT ABOUT YOU - inside out?

The true test in life, always involve looking within for answers and determining how to handle those four fingers that always point back to self, when that one is pointing out towards another.

Today is in some societies - a day of rest - can we rest this issue and get on with living our lives inside out - meaning, what ever is on the inside of us, will eventually manfest itself on the outside and if that is not clean, it will show up on the outside and then everyone will know.

This is my only and my final comment on this. It is my day of rest. I am glad and I am rejoicing in it, because I control nothing!

[Pailani]

Here is the discussion where Fred P. discusses why he took the interview off of his site: http://rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?f=12&i=44344&t=43872#reply_44344


Thank you, Rawkinlocs, this does answer a lot of the questions I had myself.

[VeganVixen]

I wasnt offended (I rarely get offended )you were stating your feelingsand thoughts,thats what this place is for! I just dont like ANY program that turns into a "dont question" type of thing,variables change constantly and its not healthy to blindly push through without thought or aknowledgment of the variables ,for RIGHT NOW all raw and vegan works ,If I start feeling like crap I WILL re think all raw ,I would NEVER however go off raw just incorperate other things ,I dont think I would become non vegan (the idea of the products eeks me)but If you can deal with that and get it from a humane source than thats ok too ,If you need to supplement then do it ,but I would NEVER stop examining my diet and I think its important to do that ,that doesnt mean EVERYONE who writes something is right -but they do open oppertunities to grow and learn .....

[Alissa]

Ok I think im missing something here?
Granted I read this over quickly but im a bit confused.
You (meaning those you who are worried about this) are going to eat diary, eggs, fish, chicken and/or meat to get B-12???
What am I missing, someone please fill me in.

WHY ARE YOU NOT JUST TAKING A B-12 SUPPPLEMENT?

They are the size of a dot and it takes about 2 seconds to pop on e in your mouth and then, guess what, you can go on with your day eating raw and not putting out so much energy trying to find out what’s wrong with this diet but actually doing it so that those of you on here debating this could actually heal yourselves.
Don’t jump down my throat about needed to know all of the facts because you know what, you NEVER will. How many diet books, nutrition books and alternative medicine books do you need to read before you realize that no one has THE answer and they will all contradict each other in some way???

Yes, its great to question and search and not be led blindly like sheep, so great, question and search for answers but come on people!!!! It’s blowing my mind, I mean BLOWING MY MIND that you are going to eat cooked foods or meat or dairy just to get b-12!
Consider the source would you, jeez, he’s just one guy! Ive been raw for many many years and im not deficient in b-12, iron, or anything (had my blood done about 1 ½ ago) and ive been vegetarian for 23 years now (ate cheese for some of those beginning years but not in a long time after that) as far as not knowing many old raw fooders, there are tons out there, they don’t all live to be 150 years old but they are healthy while they are alive. And isn’t that the point? I don’t care how long I live, just that I have fun doing it and feel good and im not lying in the hospital sick and tired. You also need to consider what their diet, lifestyle and predisposition towards illness, genes, etc.. were before going raw. It doesn’t mean that everyone who does raw is going to be the absolute picture of health and never have any ailment for the rest of their lives, but maybe they are 100 times better then where they were at.

Another point that drives me utterly berserk – your this paranoid about b-12 deficiency, but your willing to eat dairy products and animal products that will deliver you a host of other conditions that can surely cause premature aging, illness and death????
Amazing to me that we delve so deeply into finding what’s wrong about this diet when there are a million more things wrong with most other diets and ways of eating? But when one thing comes up with raw not being the perfect diet, it’s a reason to abandon so much of it. THRE IS NO PERFECT DIET FOR EVERYONE! You need to do this, adjust it, supplement if needed, etc.. but you wont even be able to get to that point if your not even doing it! OH and just for the record, you can do this and experiment and figure things out and test it out for yourself before you have to worry about b-12 deficiency –its not going o happen within 2 weeks of eating fruits and veggies. HA! How weird! Ok, I just know that as I write this I can’t even type as fast as im thinking. Its conditioning people, think about what is written here. Fear! Look what one person can do! Wow, amazing. -
Search, find out, question and look for answers but you know what, while your doing that ill be sitting here eating my big bowl of salad, reading the one of many testimonials I get EVERY day telling me how just eating raw after years of trying everything else, healed this person of something they lived with for most of their life, lost weight, got their energy back, no longer has depression, etc.. etc.. etc…I wipe tears everyday from my eyes after reading these email and I thank god (goddess, my higher self and everyone else out there who lit the way for me) that I myself just did it and didn’t need to KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT HOW IT WORKS OR WHY but chose to do it and heal myself of debilitating fibromyalgia, candida and a host of other ailments. Thank god I didn’t wait until I had all the answers. I would still be in sitting here in pain wondering what I need to do and waiting for the perfect answers and analytical data to come to me while I crawled into bed crying about how I wish I could find the answers and feel well again.

OPEN YOUR EYES PEOPLE, its right in front of you, when are you going to choose it?
I know many of you are not 100% raw. It’s a totally different ball game. Many of you guys know me, so you know I don’t care that your not 100% raw all the time, your all trying and striving and that’s so beautiful and I love reading your post and love your spirit and drive and determination to get back on after you fall of. And for those of you who have chosen to do 80 percent and stay there for a while or go back and forth with it, that great that your able to go at your own pace. Everyone needs to decide for themselves where they need to be at not just physically but spiritually and emotionally. You read this and that and then decide you need to supplement, you need more or this or that and need to experiment, or you even decide that right now all raw is not for you etc.. If that’s the decision you came to because you know for yourself this diet is not making you feel good, or stressing you out or socially you cant do it right now, etc.. great! But I just have to say this to all of you who are sick and tired of being sick and tired (and I mean this with all due respect, seriously I do, and im saying this because there are many of you here that I truly care about and feel like I know as a friend through this big word of cyberspace we all live in) GET OFF THE GAME BOARD ALREADY! Just do it!!!!! It’s not going to happen at 80%, ok, well, actually for some it may, but it wont most likely will not happen, the miraculous recovery, until you go 100%. Does that make you mad? Do you want to debate that? Are you feeling like you can prove that theory wrong? Instead of spending all the energy and time in doing that why not just go raw! So many of you are sick and hurting. What’s your excuse for not creating the health you want when you have an answer here. I hate to see you a year from now, still debating, still seeking and still reading about what’s right and wrong when instead you could be looking back on this a year from now and thanking god that you healed yourself and didn’t waste another moment of your life searching for something you already have found but couldn’t see or were frozen by fear to try.

[VeganVixen]

thats the answer I wanted to hear ~"Its ok to supplement" ,thanks Alissa

Im not scared about lack of b12,I dont feel any bad effects -I wont however tell myself that the all raw is great when I feel horrible,I doubt that will happen -I love being raw AND vegan ,but alot of people are different -so Im only speaking for myself.SO I think if someone was feeling terrible thay should supplement or change theyre diet ..........I guess thats what Im trying to say ,Its not about WHAT PEOPLE SAY ,BUT HOW YOU FEEL,I dont condone animal eating or abuse for supplementation of a vitamin found in a pill ......its just wrong and stupid..........

I was more upset by the fact that raw gurus are suggesting NO supplementation is required EVER! ,NO MATTER HOW YOU FEEL,that is dangerous thinking....

!
personally I think the author is not right ,because 100 % is working so well for me ,but I will not dismiss it.....everyone writes things ,we should just look with our bodies and feelings -not fears or mindsets......and my body SCREAMS FOR RAW VEGAN FOODS ,I NEED NO SUPPLEMENTS!!!!
my body is my guru....

I hate it when other "gurus" tell you to listen to them ,not your body -thats what gets me upset.....the "set in stone" thinking

this author is one of those people in my mind , like how he said "if you want to do it for animal rights ,then great -but dont do it for your health"<------dangerous thinking alert!!!! I feel great ,and have not been to the doctor in a year ,I WAS going twice a month before ,and I was on prilosec and anti-gag reflux meds before,so I am happy!!!!

If not taking b12 from either pills or raw goat cheese makes you ill ,then do it and dont listen to the person that says you will be an unhealthy mess,its common sense!
thats not my experience however ,goat cheese has too much fat for me to digest and is yucky PUSS ,but there are rawvies who have a happy goat and swear by it.

So thats my feeling on this matter ,im not saying raw is not good ,just to stop listening to every tom,dick and harry who tell you that youll be healthy no matter how you feel.

dont sell yourself out for someone elses ideals!

[RawTruth]

I just have to say this to all of you who are sick and tired of being sick and tired (and I mean this with all due respect, ... and ... there are many of you here that I truly care about ... ) GET OFF THE GAME BOARD ALREADY! Just do it!!!!! ... I hate to see you a year from now, still debating, still seeking and still reading about what’s right and wrong when instead you could be looking back on this a year from now and thanking god that you healed yourself ...

Amen, sister!!

[Zuzu]

Search, find out, question and look for answers but you know what, while your doing that ill be sitting here eating my big bowl of salad, reading the one of many testimonials I get EVERY day telling me how just eating raw after years of trying everything else, healed this person of something they lived with for most of their life, lost weight, got their energy back, no longer has depression, etc.. etc.. etc…I wipe tears everyday from my eyes after reading these email and I thank god (goddess, my higher self and everyone else out there who lit the way for me) that I myself just did it and didn’t need to KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT HOW IT WORKS OR WHY but chose to do it and heal myself of debilitating fibromyalgia, candida and a host of other ailments. Thank god I didn’t wait until I had all the answers. I would still be in sitting here in pain wondering what I need to do and waiting for the perfect answers and analytical data to come to me while I crawled into bed crying about how I wish I could find the answers and feel well again.

Very well said Alissa


GET OFF THE GAME BOARD ALREADY! Just do it!!!!! It’s not going to happen at 80%, ok, well, actually for some it may, but it wont most likely will not happen, the miraculous recovery, until you go 100%. Does that make you mad? Do you want to debate that? Are you feeling like you can prove that theory wrong? Instead of spending all the energy and time in doing that why not just go raw! So many of you are sick and hurting. What’s your excuse for not creating the health you want when you have an answer here. I hate to see you a year from now, still debating, still seeking and still reading about what’s right and wrong when instead you could be looking back on this a year from now and thanking god that you healed yourself and didn’t waste another moment of your life searching for something you already have found but couldn’t see or were frozen by fear to try.

Your an insperation !!!

I should hire you to call me with this insperation atleast once a week. ;)

[DennisMB]

Yahoo! I love when you guys get Alissa going. She is so passionate about this I love reading her posts! It does make me laugh though how worried people get about different topics while on a RAW diet. We never once worried what we were doing to our bodies when we were eating crap! Now we are on a healthy diet and some are worrying about little things that are easily fixed by taking a little pink B12 pill under your tongue once a day! RAW on Dudes!

Alissa, You are “Da Bomb”

[Sweet lips]

From Alissa mouth to my heart - Thank You so much - it begins within

[Alissa]

LOL! thanks guys! Ya, you know when you get me going I just cant stop! So here I go again….

You know im not trying to make this too 'simplistic' but it doesn’t have to be THAT hard either. Are there things you need to think about after being raw for a while? Sure, just like on any diet there would be. But especially at first when your hurting and needing to heal and you know that a raw diet will help you but you wont do it because your worried about all these little things that 'could 'go wrong, seems crazy to me. And like Dennis said, we "We never once worried what we were doing to our bodies when we were eating crap!" But now we are freaked out because there is controversy over b-12 and things like that. Yes, supplementing is fine, at least in my opinion. I think that’s the problem also. Your on a cooked food diet eating junk and/or animal food that will give you certain things you want (and a whole lot of things you don’t!) but there are so incredibly many things wrong about that diet (heart disease, colon cancer, diabetes, obesity, depression, i could go on and on... ) and people will pop meds or vitamins and try all kinds of crazy things to supplement THAT diet to make it 'good enough'. But then you go raw and your eating the healthiest food on the planet and there’s a new studies out saying we may not be getting b-12 so instead of taking a supplement people freak out and say, 'oh no, this diet is not good! We are not getting what we need; we are going to be deficient! Lets throw out this whole concept, raw cant be good enough, im sure im not getting all of what i need. My teeth will rot since ONE person said they had a lot of cavities while doing raw (which by the way after having a half my mouth filled with fillings when i was younger - after 16 years on raw, i never have cavities anymore which is amazing for me! i was told i had soft teeth and they would be all filled eventually! my teeth and gums are healthier then ever! don’t stop brushing your teeth when you go raw and you'll be fine, just a tip there folks!)

So we go to the extreme! Again, no diet is the perfect diet for everyone. Some may need more protein, some more fats, some who are already leaning towards a problem may have to supplement with something they are already low on. So what!!!???? that doesn’t justify the thinking ' ok, well i might as well go back to my regular way of eating since i need to pop a b-12, or eat more greens or adjust my nuts, etc... Think about this rationally!

Its still a million times better then any other diet you could do, in my opinion.

Maybe its just me, but when i heal myself, see my husband, who they gave a year to live 3 years ago, thriving and healthier then he's ever been (with blood test to prove it!) and my sister, who healed herself of severe lead poisoning who couldn’t get out of her chair at different times throughout the 16 years she suffered with it, healthier then ever, looking like she's 20 years younger and having the energy of a 20 year old, along with healing all of her symptoms and a million other ailments she had (couldn’t go out of the house in the summer because of major allergies, etc..) when i see her living her life with the passion ad exuberance of a child, along with all of the hundreds, and i do mean hundreds, of emails i get a month with people telling me how they are healing themselves, i guess for me that’s all the proof i need.
But then again, i was convinced 16 years ago when i first started this. When i first went raw. That first week, i was buzzing, my energy lifted, my depression cleared, i felt intuitively like this just made sense. So i think that’s what really needs to happen for all of you. It needs to click; it needs to resonate with you personally. You need to read and listen and talk to people about it and then you need to feel it in your body, and i don’t mean the food, you need to feel that there is something about this that is the truth. That there is something that’s not so right about the way most people live their lives and become sick and tire and old at a young age. That there is something wrong about what we are told (the drug companies, diary and meat industries, etc..) and why we are told these things. That there needs to be a change in the word and that one person can indeed make a difference.

If it doesn’t resonate with you, if you don’t Feel intuitively that this is right for you and you don’t feel like there is something right about this diet and that it is the correct way for you to eat, then by all means you SHOULDN’T do it. I am a firm believer in that! Don’t do anything you don’t want to do! If you have cancer and I tell you ‘this will heal you’ but it doesn’t feel right to you then you should not do it because your beliefs and your searching’s for ‘scientific data’ will prove me wrong. It’s just a shame again when I see someone who could have already been healing themselves and deep into the process of true health but who are still waiting for the studies and proof. BE THE PROOF!

[EmmaBlue]

hi Alissa,

I wanted to say that I learned some new things from this thread. I learned about Elizabeth Baker, I added new foods to my shopping list as a result of Mike's post, and I was inspired by the testimonials you wrote about, particularly regarding your sister and yourself and Dennis. It must be a wonderful feeling to be a healer.

Many of us are not coming off a SAD or junk diet, we are coming off a cooked vegan diet, and we are just looking for specific ideas to insure success. We are just trying to figure out if there is a "right way" or "wrong way" to do the raw diet. Is there a "wrong way"? Are there specific foods that we could include, that would help us avoid pitfalls?

For instance, I love your advice about eating a variety of raw foods, and I THOUGHT I was doing that, but Mike's post made me realize I wasn't....I've never eaten pumpkin seeds or brazil nuts, or some of those things he mentioned, but now they are on my list!

So, although a thread may seem to be unproductive, you never know how it may have helped someone.

love, emma

[siempresam]

I have been following this thread off and on, and I just wanted to say that I appreciate Alissa's comments.

I recall reading in this guy's interview that a lot of raw food leaders have health problems because of the diet and are hiding so they can continue to make a living. While this may be true of some, I am glad to see that Alissa defends her diet and lifestyle - and even recommends supplements. My husband and I have talked about this, and it seems like if we want to do this diet that we should just make sure it is balanced and that we're getting everything we need on a daily basis.

With regards to the dairy - it just doesn't make sense to eat dairy. Cow's milk is for cows, and eggs turn into birds. I eat dairy so I am talking to myself here, too. But as a vegetarian and sometimes vegan - we can get protein, calcium, etc., etc., from fruits, vegetables, and nuts. The important thing is to make sure that we intake those fresh foods that contain what we need.

Anyway, thanks Alissa for reminding us it's okay to grab a B-12 and still be raw. :)

[Mike]

Frederic posted a message on rawfoodsupport.com boards and explained why he did that, as I said, he decided to take it off, because it contained too many errors (After interviewing Nazariah, he checked some Naxariah's "facts" and found that there were incorect. ...

Hi Gosia,

The interview is still on Frederic's website,
http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/interview-nazariah.html

I saw Nazariah yesterday, he's amazing. I went to his
Essene Church service and he gave us one of the best
sermons I've ever heard. Nazariah is a true saint!

I've asked him about the interview and he told me the same
things he said in the interview. The interview is *not* full
of errors!

The fact is, some people need to eat DHA and B-12. Naz didn't
know it at the time but he is one who needs DHA and B-12.

He wasn't aware that a supplement would help him. The fact
is that he became very sick and adding eggs into his diet allowed
his body to heal.

Now we have Vegan DHA supplements and Vegan B-12 supplements.
Vegan DHA-> http://www.veganessentials.com/catalog/o-mega-zen3-vegan-dha-supplement.htm

Some people's bodies will not make enough DHA, vitamin A, or B-12.
For these people, they have two choices: Supplements or Eggs. I
recommend supplements.

[Gosia]

do not start that again. The interview DOES contains many errors. At least several of them were listed on various posts in the past (How could you forget about them? I remember you visiting those metnioned posts.), which I will not be searching for now. I will mention just one of those that were listed:

* Nazariah said that Lycopene is not digested in a raw tomato. It is digested in a cooked tomato..

This is absolutely not true. Lycopene IS found and digested in raw tomatoes (Think, how else would it get into cooked ones in the first place. From the cooking oil???) and is waving to you right now :) so that you can notice her existence.

By the way, some research suggests that the bioavailability of lycopene is higher in cooked tomatoes than in raw ones. However, another research says that is the synnergy of a number of nutrients, with the most important one being vit.C (which is destroyed when cooked), that is primarily important for fighting cancer (see the top of page 30 there):
reference (http://www.uanl.mx/publicaciones/respyn/especiales/alimentacion/conferencias_congre so_a.pdf)

Mike, Nazariah may be a nice guy, but in my view this does not prove that he is a credible source of information. I certainly would not rely on him, having found several errors in his statements myself.


Love,
Gosia.


PS Oh, so Frederic must have changed his mind and decided to leave the interview there after all, despite saying first that he would take it off? I wouldn't know about that. Thanks for letting me know.

[Sweet lips]

Hellooooooo out there in moderator and owner land - do you think this could be done now?

Just asking - we have all pulled out as per Pixie - our veggie and fruit weapons, so help them to be lowered and close this one down- is it me or is this just becoming insane, and a tad bit harmful?

[Gosia]

I recommentd highly, if you are in doubt about raw foods after reading interview with Nazariah:
clike here (http://www.thegardendiet.com/naz.html)

Love,
Gosia.

[Zuzu]

flutterfly is a great example.

Raw may not work for everyone.

Jinnjees hubby has been raw for up over 30 years.
and he looks fine.

p.s.
And I saw a pic of Naz, and he looks sick like something is wrong.
I think looking in the mirror he should have known.

[Mike]

Hi kat_khan,

Please don't judge people by their pictures.
I spoke with Nazariah yesterday and he is not
sick. He is one of the healthiest people I know.
He is glowing, radiant, and happy.

Hi Gosia,

You are the one starting it again by falsely
attacking Nazariah's interview! Yes, I did write
on those posts, Rawkinlocs posted the link to
our discussions->

http://rawfoodsupport.com/read.php?f=12&i=44344&t=43872#reply_44344

It was fun to go back and read that!

What Nazariah said is that Lycopene is found in
much higher concentrations and is easier to
absorb in cooked tomatoes, which is true. He said:
"So, there are some nutrients that are more absorbed
in cooked vegetables than in raw vegetables."

What Nazariah isn't aware of is that there is
much more lycopene in blended tomatoes than
there is in raw whole tomatoes or cooked tomatoes.

David Wolfe says that the lycopene content is
something like 15% greater in cooked tomatoes
than raw, and it is 30% greater in blended tomatoes
than raw.

Nazariah is one of my mentors, teachers, coaches,
and one of my good friends. It just bugs me when
people like Nora write negative statements about
him basically calling him a liar.

I still don't believe the interview contains any significant errors.

[Gosia]

how can you deny that?:

Nazariah said that, direct quote:
"Lycopene is not digested in a raw tomato. It is digested in a cooked tomato."

This clearly is NOT true!

I remember you once even going to the extent of saying, direct quote, "Lycopene is not found in raw tomatoes".

Now, I do not mind you thinking that Nazariah is great. However, I will not let you insist that there are no errors in his statements, as there clearly are!

Now, who is falsely attacking who?

Love :),
Gosia.

[Revvell]

*sighs and rolls eyes and goes about HER business of choosing what to eat* Leaving others to their othernesses.

Injoy ~

Revvell

[Pailani]

I recommentd highly, if you are in doubt about raw foods after reading interview with Nazariah:
clike here (http://www.thegardendiet.com/naz.html)


Thanks, Gosia. I wish that this URL was readily available whenever the original interview got posted. It does help to put it into perspective.

[glad_2beme]

this really makes me miss the old times - like the soulmates thread or something - hahaha

[misslinda]

there's no question that this thread has caused some "anxiety" as it has in me also.......so just for inner peace sake, do we know what type of raw foodist these people were --who died? I mean, I read about and have met raw foodist that will ony eat very few things---leading them to eating the same thing everyday--unlike here, a variety of foods are included and encouraged.

My next concern/question is--it seems that I hear "raw food lifestyle" is not for everyone. I would like to know, how do you know if it is not for you??? We hear alot of phrases like "that's detox" symptoms--so, how does one know if this lifestyle is involving genuine detox symptoms rather than "degradation" health as one member professed today in her own words.

I'm a rawbie that includes varieties of foods but at the same time, one can not help but to seek more information and get assurance.


RAW DRAMA,
Linda :confused:

[Gosia]

The answers to some of your questions:

* As far as these who died, this actually is one of the errors by Nazariah, as Frederic had found out, after he conducted the interview. Below, is the copy of what he had to say about that:


Author: fredraw
Date: 12-17-04 13:18
Nazariah mentioned “deaths” in the raw movement. Well, I recently heard more about the man who died in Portland from “lack of nutrients” — according to Nazariah. Apparently, and this is from someone who knew him personally, that person wasn’t even a raw-foodist. He was interested in it and ate like 70%. He wasn’t even married, like Nazariah mentioned.


* Also, read this statement by Frederic about the credibility of Nazariah's statements:

Author: fredraw Date: 12-16-04 16:00
The interview with Nazariah contained a lot of inaccurate information, and for that reason I have removed it from my site. It was an interesting discussion though, and I shall go back on it to explain point by point the errors in Nazariah's argumentation and examples.

For example, Nazariah cited one study that showed that vegans lived less long than meat eaters or vegetarians. I was really shocked by that statement. Well, I ordered that study, months after the interview was done. It stated that vegetarians didn't live any longer than meat eaters. It didn't say they lived less, and it didn't mention anything about vegans.



* And below is a post by Nora, who had some very enlightening and re-assuring things to say on the matter.

Author: nora
Date: 12-17-04 06:55
Hi Fred,
Thanks for your post. I think your experience with Nazariah perfectly illustrates why reading, citing and relying on studies, for the most part, is a waste of time. Gabriel Cousens does the same thing that Nazariah did, he cites cooked vegan studies to support his views on what constitutes optimal nutrition. In his protracted B12 treatise last year, he pointed to a study that was done involving infants who had been fed soy milk. This essay was the only thing I've seen posted in more places than the infamous Nazariah interview. People were acting like it was revolutionary information, like it finally gave us the "proof" we needed to start advising everyone to supplement B12. Nobody wanted to question what a study on cooked vegan children had to do with raw fooders eating our optimal natural diet.

Even if there were 100% raw vegan studies being done, they would be performed by people who are biased by all the unquestioned and nonsensical information that is taught to health professionals. And they would be performed ON people whose physical conditions are degenerated to some degree by their past unhealthy eating habits. In addition, we all know that it is not enough to be 100% raw and vegan. There are plenty of mistakes that can be made while staying within these parameters, and these mistakes lead to physical symptoms that can and will be mistakenly attributed to 'nutrient deficiency' by researchers who labor under false ideas about health.

There are thousands of conflicting studies out there. Most of them are conducted by people who have a *belief* and a bias going in and are really just seeking evidence to support their beliefs, whether they have that conscious, deliberate intention or not. This is not science. It may be that there are some people who are genuinely and open mindedly looking for answers and they may truly be employing the scientific method, but I still think the potential for corrupted or biased outcomes is too great because of the variables involved.

Raw fooders are always saying "we need more information", "there need to be studies done on the raw diet", etc. NO. We don't need more information, we have all the information we need. What we really need is to learn how to rely on the information we already have.

Nora
http://www.RawSchool.com


Love,
Gosia.

[misslinda]

In addition, we all know that it is not enough to be 100% raw and vegan. There are plenty of mistakes that can be made while staying within these parameters, and these mistakes lead to physical symptoms that can and will be mistakenly attributed to 'nutrient deficiency' by researchers who labor under false ideas about health.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gosia, I appreciate all your time and efforts in clarifying the misrepresented information that has caused an uproar here.

I may have worded my concern and question incorrectly but yes I agree we have all the information we need but the above statement is the very thing I think would be helpful in preventing disguised 'nutrient deficiency.'


Lastly, I agree, it makes a HUGE difference who is conducting the study and who is delivering the message.......thank you once again.


Rawbie,
Linda :)

[sweetgoddess]

Melissa....laugh my head off!!!!

[misslinda]

no JOKE cARMEL & mELISSA!!!! sorry had to laugh at that one.

"Honest to god folks.....we have nothing to do with this."


:cool:

[Gosia]

(That geisha's tip made me laugh. Did you actually test it?)

[misslinda]

Aha !! yes, i've tried it---growing up, even with food on the plate, it was a clean MISS. :p :D :mad:

Sianara--Mushi Mushi Nanekahn,
Linda

[RawTruth]

I'm outta here, like all the other usual suspects ("old"timers).

This thread is just nasty and negative (except for Alissa's responses and a few others) and does not have the warmth and supportive feeling of our "normal" threads here in Alissaland.

Sigh. So sad. Being positive is so much more satisfying.

[Pailani]

tit seems that I hear "raw food lifestyle" is not for everyone. I would like to know, how do you know if it is not for you???

I think even the ones writing the scary articles still say that a high raw is for everyone, I don't think anyone disagrees with that. Nobody thinks that there are some people who are better off with burgers and pizza. I think what's in question is whether some people need a small percentage of cooked food, or eggs, or raw goats milk, or supplements, or whatever (depending on who you read!) But even the ones who warn about deficiencies aren't saying to give up a raw diet, they're saying that some people might need a small percentage of something that's not raw vegan. So I guess the confusion and concern all revolves around that small percentage of the diet--10 to 20 percent, depending on who you read.

I guess maybe if you start having the symptoms they talk about after a couple of years, then you'd know to look at supplementing. Rather than concluding that raw doesn't work and abandoning it, or thinking meat is necessary, maybe the first thing would be to look for vegan supplements, like a B12 vitamin.

[rawpriestess]

Hi,

I want a fun thread to write and answer, remember the soulmate thread with over 1000 posts?

How fun that was, it went all over the place, so I'm gonna start one for fun.

I believe that there is ONE soulmate made for each one of us. What do YOU belive? and have yoou found yours?

I KNOW I've found mine.

remmber this is supposed to be fun.